Challenge to the SEOs

[webprowannabee]

Here's a challenge to all you Search Engine Optimization companies out there charging anywhere between $1000 and $25000 a year to optimize websites...

Take a look at www.ofsc.on.ca

This site has practically no content on the homepage other than images. There are NO meta keywords or descriptions in the page code, the first part of which consists of hundreds of lines on JavaScript functions.

Searching for "snowmobile clubs" on Google, however, brings the site up in top position. With a page rank of 6/10, I would say this site proves that there is no great science to Search Engine marketing. Type link:www.ofsc.on.ca into Google and you will see there are 15 pages of sites that link to this website. Is this the secret that all you SEOs are charging big bucks for?

[onelife]

Hi there,

Just tried @www.ofsc.on.ca on google, it has 666 (ooh! the number of the beast) links to them.

Link:www.ofsc.on.ca produces 8 in google
1060 in Yahoo
703 in Msn
222 in Teoma

The tool i used was at http://www.mikes-marketing-tools.com/link-popularity/

Hope this is of help

[fathom]

Nope!

It's not any one thing but a combinating of many... but developing links "if nothing else is available" does help a great deal... unfortuately it doesn't work that way for:

1. All websites,

2. Targetting all keywords and all keyphrases,

3. In all industries, and

4. Targetting all markets...

One reason many self-proclaimed "experts" get into hot water with clients... success on one site, on specific phrases, to one industry, targetting one market isn't a successful track record - but a diseater waiting to happen.

In your specific example: the non-profit organization "status" produced that SEO "expert" look - not an expert SEO.

[ferret77]

google is just about links

[fathom]

Originally Posted by ferret77

google is just about links

Sure thing... but that doesn't say alot... I mean "how do you get links if you have:

1. no content

2. no quality

3. no merit

I've seen (and read) the posts "just get links" because dell is number #1 for computers and it extremely competitive and they don't even have the word on the page.

Unfortuately, you need something to produce that effect -- right... so how?

tons of money,

tons of brand identity (which usually comes from lots of money),

tons of friends that will just "do it" because they like you,

tons of content with lots of topical diversity, or what?

Qualifying a response as: "google is just about links" is like saying "I'd be a billionaire if everyone in the world give me a buck... sure thing but the details do not support your premise.

e.g. hey everyone -- "just become Dell - they did it - they got links!"

[cbp]

Take a look at www.ofsc.on.ca

Clubs and organisations like that will always get lots of directory/one way links. Commercial sites often link to associations etc - regardless of the content. Its also highly likely (I did not check) that snowmobile clubs is in the anchor text of the incoming links.

BTW - did you notice the hidden text/link?

CBP

[ferret77]

so basically you agreeing with me

google is just about links

[Andilinks]

google is just about links

yep.

and being President is just about votes,

being rich is just about having dollars.

being popular is just about having friends.

life is so simple.

Andi

[Dave Hawley]

google is just about links

Nope, it's about many more factors than only links.

[Blackicicle]

You're missing the poing. Yes its a pr6 site, but look at the competition they're all pr5's and 6's so of course it going to come out on top of the rest.

You just have to be the best in your field. And they're the best. I bet if there was a pr7 site targeting that keyword, we'd all know where to expect it...

[ferret77]

I don't know I had a flash site

that was pretty much empty of text and got it ranked top 10 for "flash design"

with just links

umm, I think people who sell seo services tend to try to make it sound much more complex then it is

[cbp]

ferret77 - love the shark fishing videos in your signature - is this one of your sites?

umm, I think people who sell seo services tend to try to make it sound much more complex then it is

They have to, or who else would pay them :-)

CBP

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Andilinks

yep.

and being President is just about votes,

being rich is just about having dollars.

being popular is just about having friends.

life is so simple.

Andi

ROTFLMAO

Great post Andi.

[ferret77]

They have to, or who else would pay them :-)

a moment of honesty

yeah the fishing site is mine its still be constructed


actually even if you told someone exacly how ot do, for competitive terms the time involved is still dauting to most people

[fathom]

Originally Posted by ferret77

actually even if you told someone exacly how ot do, for competitive terms the time involved is still dauting to most people

...and that's it right there! In principle: sure Google rewards links because links tend to be more out of the website owners hands than anything they can do on their own website.

So everyone can concede to that point: "Google is about links"... but that task "IS DAUNTING" if you have little or no value e.g. "web importance" as most link owners won't link to rubbish and you can only go so far with linking to yourself.

Thus by proxy it still comes back to content as content establishes merit and merit develops links (the votes)... I guess a million dollars would likely produce without merit as well... but then spending half on copywriters would still be a better approach! ;)

[Andilinks]

Fathom is so right I am going to shout it.

It's about MERIT. Google became successful with ranking websites by incoming links because that was the best way to rank MERIT. You accumulate links because you have MERIT.

Google does its best to make its algorithm about MERIT and while it is possible to FAKE MERIT in the short term, phonies will in the end lose.

GOT MERIT?

Andi

[volkoman]

If "got milk??" gives you a little white mustache...whats the tag for "got merit??"

SEO is a "JOB".

Another job for those who can/must do it themselves... and a profession for others.

Depending on your website level...you either "do it" or pay.

I run a business, manage a website, SEO the website, and help coach my sons T-ball team (among countless other things).

Why do I have enough time to coach you may ask???

Because I "PAY". I pay to have the lawn cut. I pay to have large projects done. I even pay to have my oil changed in 20 minutes.

And...if/when I feel that my website has enough income to "PAY" for SEO work, I will pay for that too.

That is when the "merit" plays in as it does with anyone you pay to do a job you want/need done.

Who the heck wants to waste time painting a shed or worring about links or loss of PR....I'd rather yell "fore!!!"

Im not gonna pay some ding-dong to install a window in my house or SEO my site. The research to find the right contractor or SEOer is based on their merit to make the choice.

You need to look at SEO as a "job". If you do it yourself, webproworld is an excellent place to learn (you should know how its done even if you pay someone to do it).

Do it yourself, have pride in "your" work and move forward.

When the time comes where your site goes to another level..more employees, IT dept, marketing...etc (or ya just cant do it)

Im sure at that point you will happily "PAY" an SEOer so you too can play ball with your kid or kick back with mikmik over a mug of Romulan ale.

Hey...even being envolved in a forum is a job of some sorts...

The Mods and SEOers here seem to be quite willing in answering, even my, sometimes stupid/easy/redundant questions (and NOT being paid to do it). Thank you. Little by little, I will also be able to offer what I have learned.

Right now if I was told that it would cost $25000 to SEO my site I would not be able to stop laughing as I too feel that my level is easily accomplished with what I know.

In 5 years though...that may be a cheap offer.

Good Luck :)

[Dave Hawley]

Right now if I was told that it would cost $25000 to SEO my site I would not be able to stop laughing as I too feel that my level is easily accomplished with what I know.

In 5 years though...that may be a cheap offer.

In 5 years that will be either $2500 or $50000 :o)

In all seriousness though, I see that many SEO companies price themseleves out of the market. In volkoman's example of $25000. At $100 per hour, that would equate to 250 hours work. If www.volko.com has some 200 pages then the price is about double a fair price IMO. It's also only double a fair price IF *they* will be implementing everything.

So volkoman, how many pages is your site and did the quote include implementing everything?

[volkoman]

Hey dave,

It wasent a quote...meerly an answer referring to the amount from the original post.

The cost, of course, differs to the pages or work neccessary.

My site is infintile to most...perhaps why I can manage it.

I stated....you get what you pay for.

If your lucky enough to do it your self...rock on.

If not, perhaps you'll get a call... got a white mustache??? ;)

[Dave Hawley]

Dave quitley takes off his Kill SEO Companies hat :o)

[Mel]

After helping a fair number of sites I can tell you that it is not possible to fairly price SEO for a site based on the number of pages. It has much more to do with the competitiveness of the keywords that are appropriate for the site, sometimes with the site itself, and most often the expectations of the site owner.

Casio and Porn sites might snap up offers of good rankings based on an SEO price of $1000 per page, and mom 'n pop shops might often see $1000 for the optimization of their entire site as too much and yet both could be right.

But despite all the bad press (or sour grapes or whatever) SEO pricing, like everything else, is dictated by the market. If there is not a decent return on investment for the money spent on SEO, then that SEO will not be in business long.

That said, there are SEOs who will not look at a job worth less than $10,000 and there are others who claim that they will get you top rankings for $39.95.

For the customer to choose wisely can be difficult and time spent on forums such as this will be worthwhile IMO.

For the SEO its much easier to know if his prices are fair. When customers come back to you and tell you was money well spent, then you know that your pricing is fair.

[Andilinks]

When customers come back to you and tell you was money well spent, then you know that your pricing is fair.

But there is more to it than fair pricing. The result is what counts. No price is too high if the results are good enough and conversely any price is too high if sales don't increase.

As more people jump onto the SEO bandwagon the slices of the pie necessarily get thinner. When what you are dealing with is essentially a "black box" and what works this week may not work the next--or may even be penalized--dumb luck has to play a role here.

I don't think an SEO can have two clients who compete without a conflict of interest, yet how else can an SEO get experienced and skilled in one business or industry?

I think it is something that entails so many variables and so many unknowns that clients are shooting in the dark even with the best of the SEO practitioners...

Just my opinion.

BTW, thanks Mel for the comment on my earlier post. I was worried that some may not 'get it.'

Andi

[cbp]

Slightly off-topic...

But what legal recourse can a customer have against an SEO that added, for eg, hidden text or used doorway pages and the customer's site got banned?

You often hear of this happening (ie a "pretend" SEO does something that gets a site banned), but I have never heard of anyone who has gone after the SEO??? (in a legal sense, not a physical sense!!!)....eg anyone get there money back???

(BTW - I probably shouln't really be calling these people SEO's).

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

If one can get paid $1000 per page good luck to you. However, I fail to see how a highly competitive page should be charged more than a less competetive page. The time spent on each would be very close to the same.

I develop spreadsheets and custom applications for my clients. Some of these spreadsheet will earn/save the person/company hundreds, some perhaps millions. despite this, I may spend 40 hours on each and charge according to my hourly rate. I would never get away with changing one (the one that makes millions) 100 time the cost! Why do SEO companies try to do this to clients??

If they are to be honest and fair, they should take a % of any extra income earned due to SEOing. We all know that most will not do this though.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawley

... However, I fail to see how a highly competitive page should be charged more than a less competetive page. The time spent on each would be very close to the same.

I develop spreadsheets and custom applications for my clients. Some of these spreadsheet will earn/save the person/company hundreds, some perhaps millions. despite this, I may spend 40 hours on each and charge according to my hourly rate. I would never get away with changing one (the one that makes millions) 100 time the cost! Why do SEO companies try to do this to clients??

If they are to be honest and fair, they should take a % of any extra income earned due to SEOing. We all know that most will not do this though.

First of all Dave the difference in price is due to much the same reasons that you mentioned for your spreadsheet business, you simply have to do lots more work to get pages ranking for more competitive terms and thus the price is higher.

You may perhaps be thinking that all SEO is on page work but this is simply not the case. You may have to add links, you may have to add pages, you may even have to redesign the site architecture.

The reason why more SEOs do not take a percentage of the increased business as thier fee is that only the company owning the website has access to accurate figures, have no way of knowing what the figures are unless the webmaster tells you and not all webmasters are also boy scouts who only tell the truth.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawley

... However, I fail to see how a highly competitive page should be charged more than a less competetive page. The time spent on each would be very close to the same.

I develop spreadsheets and custom applications for my clients. Some of these spreadsheet will earn/save the person/company hundreds, some perhaps millions. despite this, I may spend 40 hours on each and charge according to my hourly rate. I would never get away with changing one (the one that makes millions) 100 time the cost! Why do SEO companies try to do this to clients??

If they are to be honest and fair, they should take a % of any extra income earned due to SEOing. We all know that most will not do this though.

First of all Dave the difference in price is due to much the same reasons that you mentioned for your spreadsheet business, you simply have to do lots more work to get pages ranking for more competitive terms and thus the price is higher.

You may perhaps be thinking that all SEO is on page work but this is simply not the case. You may have to add links, you may have to add pages, you may even have to redesign the site architecture.

The reason why more SEOs do not take a percentage of the increased business as thier fee is that only the company owning the website has access to accurate figures, have no way of knowing what the figures are unless the webmaster tells you and not all webmasters are also boy scouts who only tell the truth.

[Dave Hawley]

First of all Dave the difference in price is due to much the same reasons that you mentioned for your spreadsheet business, you simply have to do lots more work to get pages ranking for more competitive terms and thus the price is higher

Perhaps you should re-read my post. I state the complete opposite of what you say.

You may perhaps be thinking that all SEO is on page work but this is simply not the case. You may have to add links, you may have to add pages, you may even have to redesign the site architecture.

Most yes, all no. Getting links from other sites would not be too hard, or time consuming, when done efficiently. As for adding pages, I doubt they would have you guys do that a $1000 per page. That is plain daylight robery! Redsign the site architecture is a euphemism for a Site map.

The reason why more SEOs do not take a percentage of the increased business as thier fee is that only the company owning the website has access to accurate figures, have no way of knowing what the figures are unless the webmaster tells you and not all webmasters are also boy scouts who only tell the truth.

Oh come on Mel! Give the site owner the choice of allowing you full access to all site stats and paying a % of extra income vs $1000 per page.....I think you know the answer. It is you guys that wont have it, not vice versa.

It is all these types of non-exitent arguments put forward by SEO that taint them all. You guys are your own worst enemies and tar yourselves with the same brush as Estate Agents, Used car salesmen etc

You guys really seem to prey on the unwarey!

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawley

Perhaps you should re-read my post. I state the complete opposite of what you say.

What I said is there is more work involved in getting rankings for competitive terms so if I misunderstood you in that you charge the same price for all the work you do regardless of how long it takes then I stand corrected otherwise...

Most yes, all no. Getting links from other sites would not be too hard, or time consuming, when done efficiently. As for adding pages, I doubt they would have you guys do that a $1000 per page. That is plain daylight robery! Redsign the site architecture is a euphemism for a Site map.

NO Dave most of it is not onpage work when it comes to competitive terms as it is not possible to get high rankings for competitive words just by tweaking the tags and headers.

Don't know where you get the $1000 per page price as I certainly didn't suggest it.

No Dave there is more to site architecture than adding a site map. No wonder you have such a low opinion of SEO work, you don't seem to know much about it.

As for getting links being cheap and easy, would you care to supply anchor text links at $25 per relevant link from PR4 or higher pages?

If you can make a profit at this rate you can make a good living, since a site may often require between 100 and 500 to achieve high rankings on competitive words, and I daresay you would have lot of customers.

Oh come on Mel! Give the site owner the choice of allowing you full access to all site stats and paying a % of extra income vs $1000 per page.....I think you know the answer. It is you guys that wont have it, not vice versa.

It is all these types of non-exitent arguments put forward by SEO that taint them all. You guys are your own worst enemies and tar yourselves with the same brush as Estate Agents, Used car salesmen etc

You guys really seem to prey on the unwarey!

I will be pleased if you can refer me to a site stats program that can tell anyone what the sales profits for a site are, or even how many sales were made, or are you now changing your tune and saying that the payment should be based on increased visits? and where do you keep getting this $1000 per page idea from. I only mentioned that some sites like gambling and porn sites would be happy to pay that kind of money.

As for your blanket statement that all SEO prey on the unwary that says more about you than SEO IMO.

I made the statement earlier that a good SEO knows that his prices are right when his customers come back and tell him that the money they spent was well worth it. So long as my customers keep telling me that, its pretty easy to ignore uniformed comments.

[Dave Hawley]

What I said is there is more work involved in getting rankings for competitive terms so if I misunderstood you in that you charge the same price for all the work you do regardless of how long it takes then I stand corrected otherwise...

This is where I cannot see much difference. SEO a page for a competetive page would not involve much more work than a non-competitive page.

NO Dave most of it is not onpage work when it comes to competitive terms as it is not possible to get high rankings for competitive words just by tweaking the tags and headers.

Nobody said it was. However, other than links from other pages, what other off-page work is there? Most work should be on-page factors, if you are optimizing for long term that is.

Don't know where you get the $1000 per page price as I certainly didn't suggest it.

No you didn't, I misread one of your earlier posts. My mistake.

I will be pleased if you can refer me to a site stats program that can tell anyone what the sales profits for a site are, or even how many sales were made, or are you now changing your tune and saying that the payment should be based on increased visits?

Abolutely NOT on increased visits! Mel, you are now being silly, which is exposing you somewhat. You know full well most Web companies know to the $ how much they earn from sales originating online. The mention of stats came from you, I was simply throwing it back at you, which you now seem to have thrown out, which begs the question why you mentioned it orginally? You guys will NEVER do business on a % of increased sales as you would not make as much $$. Period.

As for your blanket statement that all SEO prey on the unwary that says more about you than SEO IMO.

No mel, I never said "all" I said "you guys". The fact you read that as "all" sais a lot about your area of business. There are some honest ones out there. Unfortunately the dishonest ones tar all with the same brush.

I made the statement earlier that a good SEO knows that his prices are right when his customers come back and tell him that the money they spent was well worth it. So long as my customers keep telling me that, its pretty easy to ignore uniformed comments.

Perhaps you are one of the few honest ones? Perhaps only a small % come back with those statements? Perhaps you made them up etc etc. Point is, arguments like that are as weak as water. Just because you type those words certainly doesn't prove anything. Besides, your argument (just above) for not taking a % of increased sale was that there is no;

site stats program that can tell anyone what the sales profits for a site are, or even how many sales were made

So how on earth could any of your customers come back and say the $$ spent were well worth it???


As for "uniformed comments", where there is smoke there is often fire.[/quote]

[volkoman]

hey dave....

your love to the SEO industry reminds me of the old joke...

whats the best kind of lawyer....a dead one.
(always funny after a few drinks)

youll all turn blue in the face tryin to justify what needs to be done to what if fair pricing...each job is different.

$1000 pg, $100 pg, redisign work, 100pages, 200pages, "ala cart"....even if a price was agreed on...some one/firm would be cheaper (not neccessarily better). A firm with higher overhead may charge more than a hungry individual.

It all comes down to the unique "job" that needs to be done and the negotiated price from the SEO firm (hopefully with some merit)

I'll be the first to say I dislike lawyers and the entire profession...paid to lie, stretch the truth and dont give you a bill till its over (im sure when I start lookin for an SEO firm I'll get the same crap from some).

Yet...when someone rear-ends you and sues "you" for being in the way...a lawyer your callin.

SEO work is impossible to price or catorigize...without an example

Pick a site or create a mock site/situation...perhaps then a price can justify the need and merit.

[Mel]

It must be that we are reading different posts Dave as it was your suggestion that the site owner should be given the choice between the SEO having full access to the site stats versus charging per page.

What about my $25 per link offer Dave?

At you understand business Volko, but trying to use an example site with Dave would be as useless as trying to outdrink an Aussie.

[volkoman]

mel...sorry I got in betwixed...I was referring to another post.

[janeth]

If they are to be honest and fair, they should take a % of any extra income earned due to SEOing. We all know that most will not do this though.

I will do it for a % but would want access to everything.

It is all about links

This site
www.car-accident.us.com/motorcycleaccident.htm
ranks #1 for "motorcycle accident lawyers," with only 2 links. It takes more then just links to get a top ranking.

[Andilinks]

...ranks #1 for "motorcycle accident lawyers," with only 2 links.

It gets the top slot with a low PR because it is the only site using that exact string. Google counts word order even when quotes are not used.

Finding a longer search string that actually gets searched is probably one of the lesser touted of the SEO arts.

Andi

[janeth]

Andi,
I agree with almost everything you say but not this time. Here is the site that use to be ranked #1 for three years for it

http://www.the-motorcycle-lawyer.com/

I know of five other attorney sites wanting it and all have more links then the one that has it.

[Andilinks]

I agree with almost everything you say...

Music to my ears. :)

Yes you are right about the motorcycle sites... I have no explanation, I'd love to hear one.

Andi

[janeth]

Google has been acting a little funny lately and I'm wondering if there not changing things around a bit.

[cbp]

This site
www.car-accident.us.com/motorcycleaccident.htm
ranks #1 for "motorcycle accident lawyers," with only 2 links. It takes more then just links to get a top ranking.

Its not a very competitive keyword.
Also have keywords as anchor text on a lot of internal links.

CBP