SEO Should Be Dead

[Chuckmiser]

Always easyier to do SEO durring the build than afterwards. Designers don't care they have been paid. The SEO guys gets the knocks if he can't move it to the top, and it ain't that easy anymore..

Glad to hear that I am dead, Can I get paid and go home now, I have to learn CSS quick?

[Clarrie]

Originally Posted by kgun

What is so special with this W3Schools Online Web Tutorials Norwegian site that ranks near the top for everything related to web development?

IMO.

1. Good well organized content.
2. Some of their tutorials are good enough for the average webmaster.
3. There is a natural relationship between KW's and folder structure etc.
4. Practical minimalism.

Well, its ranking could also have something to do with 21,400 pages, and 323,450 inbound links (according to Yahoo) ...

But what's special about the site is that it is simply a great reference resource for pretty much any web technology - easy to use, and easy to find the answers you need (its my first point of reference when I need to look something up).

That's why it has all those inbound links (mine included), and why it deserves to rank well. Content IS king (if it gets you links like that...)!

[williamc]

Originally Posted by kgun

Good post until I read this:

1. As long as the site functions the platform you used is not important.
2. Spelling errors may depend on your location

I didn't even get that far.

If you have employed a web designer and they don't know or care what SEO is, then frankly you have employed a fake.

A designers job is as the title says, to design. A 'designer' is indeed hired to make things pretty. A 'developer' on the other hand... A designer needs not know a damn thing about SEO or programming at all. To call a designer a fake by not having those unneeded skills is simply to boost ones own ego, and make oneself the fake.

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by kgun

Good post until I read this:

1. As long as the site functions the platform you used is not important.
2. Spelling errors may depend on your location

The problem with using HTML GUI's is that they have a tendency to add problematic code, making it harder to fix or solve compatibility issues; however, when hand coding you continuously validate your own work and make sure that it is cross compatible (comment tags are good). I spend quite a bit of time fixing other peoples coding mistakes; which have mostly been made by Dreamweaver users, hence my dislike for the application.


Yes if it works it's great, but when it doesn't – it is a nightmare to repair. On second thoughts, without Dreamweaver and the likes I would not be called in to fix the coding issues they cause, which means I would have less money – “DREAMWEVER EVERYONE SHOULD US IT!”

[sofakingdabest1]

Gee. Look at all the unique content Webproworld got from Janeth. It ain't dead. It won't die. Search engines are the libraries of the net. SEO is important.

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by williamc

I didn't even get that far.



A designers job is as the title says, to design. A 'designer' is indeed hired to make things pretty. A 'developer' on the other hand... A designer needs not know a damn thing about SEO or programming at all. To call a designer a fake by not having those unneeded skills is simply to boost ones own ego, and make oneself the fake.

William – LOL. You are talking complete rubbish, bless you.


I would not expect for you to agree with my comments to David's thoughts, I know that you both have very close linkings to each other.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

William – LOL. You are talking complete rubbish, bless you.


I would not expect for you to agree with my comments to David's thoughts, I know that you both have very close linkings to each other.

I disagree with David quite a bit. But I definately point out stupidity such as your post. Not my fault you wish to redefine the term 'designer' as it has been used for over a decade.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

The Web Designer
The main problem that “Web Designers” come across, is that everyone feels that they know how a website should be built, this includes the majority of “Graphic Designers”; some of them should simply stick to print to be honest; as they give us web designers a bad name.

If you have employed a web designer and they don't know or care what SEO is, then frankly you have employed a fake. It's our business to understand all factors of web design: from usability, browser compatibility to making the site search engine friendly; weather using HTML or CSS makes no difference. We are not just hired to make things look pretty.

Could not disagree more. I have workerd with some excellent designers. An no, some don't know much about SEO nor would I expect them to. I do however expect them to be experts and excel at what it is they do. A doctor, a GP, is not a fake because they don't specialize and a specialist would know more than they do.

Now, a designer who claims to know and provide other services such as SEO, marketing, developement, etc. and cannot is another matter altogether.

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

Companies should do:
Companies should employ someone who has extensive web-copywriting skills, to assist them in obtaining the best content for their users and not content solely for search engines. Listen to the web designer when it comes to the site and what actions they should follow to make the site cross compatible. Also, when it comes to the web designer - make sure they know how to “code by hand” and do not use “Dreamweaver” to build the sites; this will speed up the build process whether the site is being built in HTML or CSS.

Let me guess, you"ll claim have the particular skills you listed. About right?

Companies should employ someone or a firm that's going to put their desires and interests first. They should employ a web designer who listens to them and not solely the other way around. Companies should not care at all whether or not someones is a "code by hand" expert.

I have never met an expert at everything nor will I. I have met some that claim to be or present themselves as such.

Dave

[Urbanxtremes]

Well Willy, obviously you have been working with “Interior Designers”, I have been a web designer since 96 and so have the majority of my colleagues. It's simple, we know what we do...

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

I spend quite a bit of time fixing other peoples coding mistakes; which have mostly been made by Dreamweaver users, hence my dislike for the application.


Yes if it works it's great, but when it doesn't – it is a nightmare to repair. On second thoughts, without Dreamweaver and the likes I would not be called in to fix the coding issues they cause, which means I would have less money – “DREAMWEVER EVERYONE SHOULD US IT!”

So you use Dreamweavers inbuild validators on the

1. File menu +
2. Check page
3. ++

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by kgun

So you use Dreamweavers inbuild validators on the

1. File menu +
2. Check page
3. ++

You make me laugh - thanks

[williamc]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Could not disagree more. I have workerd with some excellent designers. An no, some don't know much about SEO nor would I expect them to. I do however expect them to be experts and excel at what it is they do. A doctor, a GP, is not a fake because they don't specialize and a specialist would know more than they do.

Exactly. Some people always feel they have to redefine things to make themselves feel better about themselves however. It is simply an ego or insecurity thing.

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Could not disagree more. I have workerd with some excellent designers. An no, some don't know much about SEO nor would I expect them to. I do however expect them to be experts and excel at what it is they do. A doctor, a GP, is not a fake because they don't specialize and a specialist would know more than they do.

Now, a designer who claims to know and provide other services such as SEO, marketing, developement, etc. and cannot is another matter altogether.

Let me guess, you"ll claim have the particular skills you listed. About right?

Companies should employ someone or a firm that's going to put their desires and interests first. They should employ a web designer who listens to them and not solely the other way around. Companies should not care at all whether or not someones is a "code by hand" expert.

I have never met an expert at everything nor will I. I have met some that claim to be or present themselves as such.

Dave

This industry moves too fast, for anyone to claim that they are the expert, they will be back to being a novice in months to come. I think most people should agree with that.


I personally spend a considerable amount of time studying, as it is important for me to keep ahead. I don't get you when you say “you claim to have the particular skills”, my skills are pretty standard with the other web designers I know. We give the client what they want, but, consult them through the whole process. Otherwise, we would never work.

Originally Posted by williamc

Exactly. Some people always feel they have to redefine things to make themselves feel better about themselves however. It is simply an ego or insecurity thing.

Williamc – maybe I have an ego, maybe I have insecurities or maybe both. You know what, maybe you should become a psychotherapist if you can work that out by reading a few comments from me.

Oh gosh, I am doing it again. I am now redefining you as someone important, and I have never met you. Sorry WilliamC - what does the "C" stand for?

[OroLatina]

Originally Posted by janeth

I agree 100% but since so many people claim it does I figured I'd include it here.

OroLatina has been up and running online since late 2006 and considering we have done quite well in the very competitive gold jewelry verticle (I think we are number 10 or 11 now on a search for Gold Jewelry), I would say that having a website that validates has not hurt us :P. From basic observations I can also say that I have yet to see an all Flash site rank high for any competitive keyword phrase.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

what does the "C" stand for?

That would be the first letter of my last name. Important? No more than you or anyone else here.

But at least you admit to having to redefine the term to suit your ego or insecurities. Oh and that was not based on only your comments but on 15 years seeing many others trying to redefine basic terms for the same reasons.

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by williamc

That would be the first letter of my last name. Important? No more than you or anyone else here.

But at least you admit to having to redefine the term to suit your ego or insecurities. Oh and that was not based on only your comments but on 15 years seeing many others trying to redefine basic terms for the same reasons.

Honestly, you are just one of those self important forum <snip>; and that did not take me 15 years to work out.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by sofakingdabest1

Gee. Look at all the unique content Webproworld got from Janeth.

She occasionally posts things that she knows in advance will get a rise out of some people, such as this thread. I would guess that she was bored

[williamc]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

Honestly, you are just one of those self important forum <snip>; and that did not take me 15 years to work out.

Actually, I already said I was no more important than you or anyone else here. Your comments however, do show that you think you are one of those obsessive people you speak of. It is obviously on your mind from the quoted comment.

[Urbanxtremes]

Originally Posted by williamc

Actually, I already said I was more important than you or anyone else here. Your comments however, do show that you think you are one of those obsessive people you speak of. It is obviously on your mind from the quoted comment.

I would expect something a bit better than that from you. Go for Will... Get it off your chest.



While you do that, I am going home.

[williamc]

The sad thing is... I did not expect better of you. Editing your quote to say something other than what it did simply shows your childishness and need to feed your ego. Thanks for making my point for me.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

This industry moves too fast, for anyone to claim that they are the expert, they will be back to being a novice in months to come. I think most people should agree with that.


I personally spend a considerable amount of time studying, as it is important for me to keep ahead. I don't get you when you say “you claim to have the particular skills”, my skills are pretty standard with the other web designers I know. We give the client what they want, but, consult them through the whole process. Otherwise, we would never work.

Sorry my post wasn't clear. You listed a few skills that a company should look for in your "should do list". My guess is that you would suggest you have those skills otherwise you wouldn't list them.

Companies should employ someone who has extensive web-copywriting skills...

What a company "should do" is be assured they are going to be provided with excellent copy to meet their goals. Whether or not you or I personally possess those skills is not important. As you said, it's impossible for any to claim they are an expert.

...make sure they know how to “code by hand”...

A company should not nor need not concern themselves with this. How good coding is arrived at doesn't matter.

I don't at all agree with you when you suggest that a "designer" need personally be an expert at things beyond the scope of their expertise or they are a fake. This strikes me as rather self serving.

Knowing when to collaborate and with whom matters. Matters to the company/individual seeking services as well as the company/individual providing them.

Dave

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

I would expect something a bit better than that from you. Go for Will... Get it off your chest.

While you do that, I am going home.

Don't you think that intentionally altering something that you're presenting as a quotation is a little childish, if not downright dishonest, Urbanxtremes?

Not what most of us here would consider proper forum etiquette, at the very least.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by crankydave

A company should not nor need not concern themselves with this. How good coding is arrived at doesn't matter.

I don't at all agree with you when you suggest that a "designer" need personally be an expert at things beyond the scope of their expertise or they are a fake. This strikes me as rather self serving.

Knowing when to collaborate and with whom matters. Matters to the company/individual seeking services as well as the company/individual providing them.

Unless, of course, someone wants to portray the image that he is better suited than he actually is. Which is a dis-service to the client in the first place.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by Doc

Don't you think that intentionally altering something that you're presenting as a quotation is a little childish, if not downright dishonest, Urbanxtremes?

Not what most of us here would consider proper forum etiquette, at the very least.

No, you had it right the first sentence, it is just dishonest. Much like trying to redefine a 'term' so that he can say other designers are 'fakes', so he looks better than he actually is. Dishonest.

[jamescabrera]

web designers are paid to do exactly what they're named to do, design. SEO people are paid to do SEO. A web designer should focus on what they're paid to do as what SEO people should be paid to do.

If you have employed a web designer and they don't know or care what SEO is, then frankly you have employed a fake

you actually haven't employed a fake, it's like asking a fisher to think about the rest of the water while fishing. a fisher is paid for what he/she fishes, not for being environment friendly unless they need to obey laws.

[weegillis]

"Liars may figure, and figures may lie." I don't know to whom we should credit this quote, it's from many years ago, but it's just as poignant today as it was fifty years ago.

'Claims to be an expert' and 'makes expert claims'--are these synonymous? The proof is in the pudding. Are clients being served or being hoodwinked by SEO 'experts' who get in the door on 'claims.'

Would it were there was no SCAM connotation affixed to the term SEO, but the industry has just not matured enough to weed out the weak from the strong, the chaff from the wheat. Experts of all flavors are going to continue to pop up and the lesser informed are always going to be there to monetize them into legitimacy (of one form or another). Personally, I would watch for the ones that are making the most noise in their claims, and not on the web, itself.

[morestar]

Originally Posted by MrGamm

Well... If you believe five years from now the web will be exactly the same and perhaps you can throw anything on the web and get good rankings.

You would be correct.

I sort of understand where you are coming from. But even recently I have overhauled poorly built websites to proper standards (what those are I refuse to say), and the traffic started to roll in where before it did not.

So... hey... maybe if Google is always on top... we will always need seo?

Search Ranking Factors Shows How Little SEO Has Changed

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by Urbanxtremes

Well Willy, obviously you have been working with “Interior Designers”, I have been a web designer since 96 and so have the majority of my colleagues. It's simple, we know what we do...

If by that you mean that you do more than design, then you are not simply "designers."

There is a great deal of difference between a "designer" and a developer," just as there is between an "architect" and a "builder," or between a "systems analyst" and a "programmer."

That you may not recognize such difference, or otherwise decline to speak of such, does not serve to make it otherwise; neither does it facilitate reasoned discourse, which requires a common accepted vocabulary.

[Clicken]

Originally Posted by ”Williamc”

She occasionally posts things that she knows in advance will get a rise out of some people, such as this thread. I would guess that she was bored

Bored? Hmm, that might be believable IF she didn’t have an SEO site in her sig which will gain support from WPW BLs and IF she was new to the business and IF you hadn’t smiled!

Anyone can appreciate the support of back links from such a popular site however it would be advantageous not to compromise integrity for links by stating opinions as fact. Case in point referenced below. The first part of the quote is appropriately stated as an opinion but the second statement about Google ranking is presented as a fact which it is not.

Originally Posted by ”Janeth”

I do not believe in onsite SEO or believe that it will still exist five years from now…
…, the best way to rank in Google is too ignore them.

If it is true that ignoring Google is the best way to rank, then why would either onsite or offsite optimization be necessary?

Then there is the statement quoted from Matt Cutts which was intended to validate the concern that onsite SEO would not be needed by professionals anymore. It is difficult for me to believe that a person who has been in this business for as long as she has been and who considers herself an authority/professional on the subject would actually believe what she has presented.

WordPress takes care of 80-90% of (the mechanics of) Search Engine Optimization (SEO)

Even if WordPress was the end all solution to the onsite SEO task then what is the SEO advantage to using it, if ignoring the SE is truly the best way to rank?

Maybe for some people WP might make their job a little easier but quality might be traded for convenience and others will not find it to be worth messing with.

Also worth mentioning is that the quote states that it is ‘the mechanics of’ SEO which WordPress will take care of. That means there will be judgment needed by the webmaster to fine tune the optimization.

IMO and as others have stated there is too much diversity on the web and too many factors involved in website development for onsite SEO to disappear. It didn’t disappear because of offsite SEO weighing more and as long as there is any weight placed on onsite optimization then there will be a need for some people to source it out because some designers will prefer to do templates only while some designers may be willing to do optimization too.

Bored, … LMBO

[Webnauts]

Great post Clicken. I think the discussion ends here for me too.

And for the ones claiming to be experts or trying to define what an expert is, I would like to drop a tip: Coding Horror: Are You An Expert?

Take care everybody.

[deepsand]

Which segues nicely into an ancient American adage that I frequently quote, "As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness," which succinctly describes the relationship between ones knowledge and understanding on the one hand, and an appreciation of the extent of ones ignorance on the other.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by Clicken

Bored? Hmm, that might be believable IF she didn’t have an SEO site in her sig which will gain support from WPW BLs and IF she was new to the business and IF you hadn’t smiled!

You have to get to know Janeth better.

I can almost assure you that she was bored when she started this topic.

[NetProwler]

Interesting discussion. Ranking for the targeted keywords is a complex business. Designers and developers have to keep pace with the advance in technology. Their job is complicated and writing contents and click able headlines is not necessarily part of their repertoire. They have enough in their plates to deliver visually pleasing content and deliver them as efficiently as possible. Even at the latter many have a hard time coping.

WordPress takes care of 80-90% of (the mechanics of) Search Engine Optimization (SEO)

It is the other 10-20 % which makes the difference. WordPress can't tell you what terms users actually use. It can't write persuasive copy that can sell. There is more to SEO than just getting the basics right.

SEO is a highly complex task. SEO people have to look with a holistic approach. As someone here said, SEO specialists act as the overall project managers. As long as their contribution to deploying effective sites remains, 'SEO won't be dead'.

[Webnauts]

Don't you all think this makes sense? http://twitter.com/zeldman/status/1137456194

[inertia]

I bet my life savings (about £300) that if every web designer, developer and SEO here was to write down their skill set and compare them we'd see huge overlaps and similarities but we'd each lean in our chosen direction. Maybe some of you designers out there would actually realise you were more like developers and maybe some developers would realise they were more like an SEO?

Does anyone think it's possible to be an expert in one field without knowing something about the others?

[inertia]

WordPress takes care of 80-90% of (the mechanics of) Search Engine Optimization (SEO)

Admittedly, Wordpress is great for people who dont know a lot about SEO because it's built in an SEO friendly way and there are plugins which fix anything with very little knowledge required. But there are still problems with Wordpress that can only be resolved with programming and decent SEO skills/knowledge.

[kgun]

When content is truly rated by content and not technology SEO is dead.

If you copy from one person you are a plagarian. If you copy from two persons you are a researcher.

What am I?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

When content is truly rated by content and not technology SEO is dead.

If you copy from one person you are a plagarian. If you copy from two persons you are a researcher.

What am I?

The next King of Norway?

[Feydakin]

Originally Posted by inertia

I bet my life savings (about £300) that if every web designer, developer and SEO here was to write down their skill set and compare them we'd see huge overlaps and similarities but we'd each lean in our chosen direction. Maybe some of you designers out there would actually realise you were more like developers and maybe some developers would realise they were more like an SEO?

Does anyone think it's possible to be an expert in one field without knowing something about the others?

We had a saying back when I was in college double majoring in Architecture and Engineering.. Architects know less and less about more and more while Engineers know more and more about less and less.. I know enough about an awful lot of things to be real scary at times, but I know when to call in a specialist as well.. My wife has a blank stare much of the time until you get her in her field and then she is quite literally one of the top minds in that field..

The thing I have seen in years as a software / web developer is that a lot of architect minded people like to pretend that they are engineer minded people about "everything" on the web.. They figure that because they know more than most people they are an expert.. When in reality they are competent, but not much more than that.. I could write database calls and develop a dynamic site from scratch if I had to, but why would I when there are people that are a LOT better at it than I am available out there?? The same goes for graphic design.. One of my minors is in graphic design to go with my architecture degree, but I know when to stop and ask someone that does NOTHING but graphic design all day to come in and help..

The days of being a one man shop will never die, but it is getting harder and harder to deliver a competitive product for your clients by thinking that you can do it all at a level of 5 specialists.. I was that way for years.. It took getting my teeth kicked in a few times by people that really were experts to get over it and start working with groups of specialists rather than accept that my work was good enough to be in the top 80% of the web when it could be in the top 95%..

Back to the OP, (Hi Janeth) like everything else, SEO will be dead for a very long time.. People say that the automobile killed the horse and carriage, but there is still a market for horses and carriages right here in my home town with a fairly large community.. The same with SEO.. Yes, engines will evolve to be better and better at what they do, but the need to get so good that SEO is unneeded just isn't there.. Where is the profit motive in that for the search engines?? Will spending the billions of dollars needed to make true learning machines ever outweigh the 'good enough' aspect they have now?? I don't think so..

[williamc]

Originally Posted by inertia

my life savings (about £300)

We need to get you more work mate.

[inertia]

We need to get you more work mate.

lol. Yes please and some lessons in money management would be good to! I've always been terrible at saving!

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

We had a saying back when I was in college double majoring in Architecture and Engineering.. Architects know less and less about more and more while Engineers know more and more about less and less..

Brings to mind the definition of a specialist as being one who "knows almost everything about almost nothing."

[weegillis]

When I think, "cloud," what comes to mind is those cloud shaped balloons filled with text in a cartoon strip--A pun or a punch line just waiting to happen. Today's computing world is growing more and more homogeneous so that no matter where it spills, it's still wet.

If SEO is not augmented with application strength, the gig's up anyways. An application has a way of keeping a user focused and 'on station,' something that SEO and site developers have been working toward for years. Face it, apps are where it's really at.

Search is going to have to follow the apps, like it or not. If your campaign is going to be in eyeshot of enough users to succeed and triumph, it will be significantly application based, no question.

SEO is in a paradigm shift.

[bossaway]

Doing a complicated design in CSS takes longer and people are not going to want to pay extra for that. Not to mention if they have to make the CSS look the same in all browsers.

[inertia]

Doing a complicated design in CSS takes longer and people are not going to want to pay extra for that. Not to mention if they have to make the CSS look the same in all browsers.

What browser issues are having? I'm not a designer/developer in the strictest sense of the word but even I can get a CSS site to display correclty across the different browsers.

Am I the only one who finds CSS easier than tables? I find it easier to build a site, maintain it, SEO it etc, there's less code to deal with, its future proof, it's more acessbile, it's more usable, it's easier to implement better semantics and browser friendly (mobile technology for example).

I still use tables though... when im creating tables.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by weegillis

SEO is in a paradigm shift.

or SEO is a moving target

Should this post be titled:

Is SEO dead II?

Is SEO Dead?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by inertia

I still use tables though... when im creating tables.

You mean when you want to present tabular data, right? If that is the case that is an excellent practice.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

You mean when you want to present tabular data, right? If that is the case that is an excellent practice.

But you can disallow GoogleBot or other bots to see that styling. Don't oveload the bot's memory and the time they stay on your site.

[kayd]

Originally Posted by ogletreeseo

First off validation and tables vs css is very optional and has zero to do with SEO.

The thing is, you don't actually know that for a fact. I know that you don't know because these things are EXTREMELY difficult to test properly. The exact same strength domain, the exact same strength keyword targets, copy (yet still seperate), all other elements EXACTLY the same just one site with tables, one with CSS, launched the same day...etc. That's the only real way of testing it.

I use a common sense approach in my SEO and 'ignore' google as much as my SEO experience lets me. But there are times when you simply have to bite the bullet and trust what you are being told by Google in terms of the site build. I'm in no way a believer that a site using tables CANNOT rank but I'm still a table-less design SEO all the way. I'll still question it though - google is supposedly improving how it ranks websites all the time. Only recently there was a discussion about whether the title strength might be reduced in favour of H1s.

I found an article by a google engineer at webmaster central. It talks about 'killing two birds with one stone' with regards to accessibility AND natural search. This is a quote directly from it relating to how using tables can affect how your site fairs in natural results:

"using deeply-nested HTML tables makes it difficult to link together related pieces of text in a logical manner. "

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to take his word for it!

[kayd]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

You mean when you want to present tabular data, right? If that is the case that is an excellent practice.

which is exactly what tables are for....right?