SEO or Design

[simonm]

Here's a question. Has anybody out there in the SEO camp made the mistake of working alongside a designer, did you resort to shouting or even violence?

Back in August I had a long meeeting with a client about their new web site, they introduced a pet designer, their third in 6 months
My skills are SEO, then development, then design, I don't tout my design skills as there are many brilliant designers, I would put myself as middling, but then there are so many templates to use its easy to look good!

Having sat through the meeting, I agreed to do the development and stated clearly that without significant input into the layout and content, the SEO would fail. They decided they wanted a pretty website! The designer would lead.

3 months later, pointless arguments about text kerning and wrapping not matching their graphic representation and a mediocre site that compares poorly with standard templates and is progressively vanishing from the search results. What is worse is the MD anounces that he is unhappy that his site is not Number 1 for the term renewable energy. (Banging head against wall time)

In another example where I have worked alongside a designer from another company, yes it was frought, but the MD insisted that I led. After 3 or 4 revisions - do all designers think that what they do 1st time round is perfect and never to be changed? The overall agreement was that it was a brilliant, appropriate site, satisfied the user journey, SEO, design, looks professional etc. Having been through that pain I would risk working with that designer again.

Looks like I am about to be asked to do the SEO where some other company does the design and development and leads the project. The answer is a clear no-way! This other comapany's idea of SEO seems to be limited to alt tags and some nice flash animations! (I don't exagerate and they promote themselves as SEO experts) The tender document has stated clearly that the whole point of the site is online promotion!

So, here's the question, its fairly clear what my view is as to designers, what does everybody else think, in a web development project, where the aim is online promotion, who should lead the project?

[Toni Anicic]

I am an SEO myself and have a few designers working in the same company. They always respect my opinion as an SEO expert and my word is always the last.

[subhzash]

SEO should lead designers. As of now i have a team of designers who respects my opinion and we build seo friendly websites



Regards
Subhzash

[bobchrist]

A professional web design is generally targeted for search engines so the website should be SEO friendly to meet your objectives.

[innominds]

Most of the designers are not aware of simple SEO techniques and thus they build very horrible websites. It is for this reason, we need to again consult SEO professional.

[Vaijero_Maya]

Tricky. It involves knowing your own thing and the others because a good design (not about looking good) but respecting white space, movement, balance and the proper elements to encourage the reading are very important.

But anyway, it is very common to find problems with design (that won't help the website). I guess the say still works: the form (design) is dictated by the content. Some mediocre designers don't work around this.

[SemAdvance]

Sites that are built using validated xhtml & CSS ensures design has little effect on SEO rankings.

Spiders read code.... not design aspects.

To the OP - Sometimes you can lead, without actually being the leader.......

[incrediblehelp]

"do all designers think that what they do 1st time round is perfect and never to be changed?"

Aint that the truth. I am working with client right now that we have to keep coming back to the designer for more changes, blah, but hey that is life and the way both parties should understand it works.

As for SEO leading the designer that is tough to say. You cant just give SEO a blank canvas and then say "rank it". You have work through wireframes to get the look and feel the client wants. Work tightly with the deisnger to make sure the navigational arhcitecture is optimized and most importantly make sure the website owners have the "right" content in place for the pages to rank.

Who leads in this project is really a "it depends" answer and whatever works best for everyone.

[imvain2]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

Sites that are built using validated xhtml & CSS ensures design has little effect on SEO rankings.

As discussed many times in WPW, this is actually a falicy for many reasons.

1> With all other things being equal (links/content), validated Xhtml and CSS designed websites have equal chances on being top ranked as it's counterpart (within reason of course).

2> Although, design as in colors and image placement in itself, may not affect the rankings, the design can have a negative effect. In the past, I have been given full site photo shop files, which despite my objections were to be sliced and created into websites. Sure, you can work and get the valid xhtml, but if the content is all contained within the images, then there will be problems. So yes, in some cases the design does effect the SEO.

------------------------------------------------------

But back to the original post.

When working with designers or anyone questions something, I simply tell them "function then form".

I tell them that print [graphic] design is different from web [graphic] design. When working in the web world, there are more things to take into consideration, compared to print. A lot of times, I get good designs, but the functionality displayed in the design isn't consistent, it's difficult to understand or difficult to even follow.

Overall, I think the problem that I have had the most is the fact that most of the designers that I work with are from marketing firms who are strictly offline marketers (as in print, tv etc...). They don't understand usability and load times.

[jannmirch]

Since I come to the table from more of a traditional marketing/design background, that's what I do. But as was said above

Originally Posted by Vaijero_Maya

It involves knowing your own thing...

It sounds like the designers you are getting saddled with don't understand how to play well with others unfortunately.

When a site has an SEO professional to drive the traffic to the site and a good designer to make the site user-friendly and inviting THAT's the best of both worlds.

A beautiful site that no one visits is of no use. Nor is a site that gets visitors that leave too quickly because it hurts their eyes.

It's hard to be in the sandbox when the other kids can't share. Good luck!

[adtastichosting]

Well this is something I run into all the time. I have a favorite saying I've been known to use with clients frequently, "we aren't designing this site so you can buy something from yourself but so that other people will buy something from you and the site has to be designed within industry standards in that regard not simply to please what you want it to look like." Then I point to all of the certificates on the wall including the CIW Certified Professional Webmaster one. I explain to them that if they do not want to listen to the certified professional that has developed hundreds of websites that are successful and making money, then my service is not the one they want. Yeah its harsh, but it works. You have to position yourself and your authority right from the outset as if you are saying "its my way or the highway" otherwise you'll have nothing but problems from the beginning. When a client sees you this way they have more respect I think and as well trust you must really know what you are doing to be so bold that you don't care. At least, it works well for me (to a point) but then, a large part of my business is from the referrals of happy clients so that helps a lot when you talk to a new customer so forcefully and yuo let them know you are too busy and too popular to take any bull from anyone.
Of course, for this to work and work well you better be able to back up what you say and do otherwise it will certainly backfire on you.
So in your case, with reference to your post simonm, it might be time to say "Hey if you aren't going to listen to me and let me lead the process with regard to developing your site so it will rank well in the major search engines, then good luck to you because design alone is not the answer when you consider about 80% of your traffic will come from being ranked highly in the search engines and for that you are going to not only need the professional and qualified advice of a seo professional but actually follow the advice."

[imvain2]

A favorite analogy I like to use is.....

A great looking website that no one can find, is like a very pretty billboard in the middle of the ocean.

Sure, you might get someone once in awhile that comes across it, but not enough to make any difference.

[deepsand]

It is useful to here observe that a "specialist" is frequently described as "someone who nearly everything about almost nothing."

Effective leadership of a team of specialists requires a generalist.

[datajam]

This is such a wonderful topic!

Frankly, neither the Designer, nor the SEO Pro should be a required need to have your web site fairly and appropriately indexed by Search Engines. The need for the Designer is the same as needing someone to do a print layout . . . which is a limited need and to allow a Designer to run the show is not necessary. The need for an SEO Pro is nothing less than the Search Engines highjacking the Internet by requiring web sites be built to their dictate. Not the SEO Pros fault, but. . .

The facts are simple; The Internet is document publishing, which contrary to an earlier opinion in this topic SHOULD NOT BE DIFFERENT than publishing for print. The need for different publishing is ridiculous. The failure is the Search Engines, not the publisher. When the Internet Community quits paying a small fortune repeatedly to chase high Search Engine rankings, gets tired of having to take the time every time Google changes their algorithms, or just decides that they are tired of being led by the nose by the Search Engines then the Search Engines will possibly consider learning how to properly index the Internet.

Right about now, all the Designers and SEO Pros are pounding their fists on their desks screaming four letter words and suggesting I be taken out back to the tree with the noose hanging from it. But, I am right. There is not a single Search Engine today that can accurately index the Internet. And look at the money thry're making while you're spending yours!

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by datajam

This is such a wonderful topic!

Frankly, neither the Designer, nor the SEO Pro should be a required need to have your web site fairly and appropriately indexed by Search Engines. The need for the Designer is the same as needing someone to do a print layout . . . which is a limited need and to allow a Designer to run the show is not necessary. The need for an SEO Pro is nothing less than the Search Engines highjacking the Internet by requiring web sites be built to their dictate. Not the SEO Pros fault, but. . .

The facts are simple; The Internet is document publishing, which contrary to an earlier opinion in this topic SHOULD NOT BE DIFFERENT than publishing for print. The need for different publishing is ridiculous. The failure is the Search Engines, not the publisher. When the Internet Community quits paying a small fortune repeatedly to chase high Search Engine rankings, gets tired of having to take the time every time Google changes their algorithms, or just decides that they are tired of being led by the nose by the Search Engines then the Search Engines will possibly consider learning how to properly index the Internet.

Right about now, all the Designers and SEO Pros are pounding their fists on their desks screaming four letter words and suggesting I be taken out back to the tree with the noose hanging from it. But, I am right. There is not a single Search Engine today that can accurately index the Internet. And look at the money thry're making while you're spending yours!

Well spoken.

As for nooses, I doubt that there are a number sufficient for all who grasp and accept the truths here contained. That those who hold to the contrary are those most vocal does not perforce place them in a majority.

[logodesign77]

I started out as a designer but over the years have moved to the SEO side of things. In my opinion it is absolutely necessary to decide from the start whether or not the clients site is meant to be focused on look or functionality or be able to be found by the search engines.

I have stated many times that SEO begins on paper long before the first line of code is entered. Everything from site navigation to text placement to image naming and so much more must be carefully planned in order to make a ready for its climb up the search engines. Of course fresh content is a big part of the equation as well and that fresh content has to be found.

Designers like to use graphic links rather than text links, they like flash and large graphics and they don't like plain text. Finding a happy balance is difficult at best and in the end the person who heads the company needs to decide if they are more interested in being found or how they look.

I do realize there are some companies where image is everything but in most of those cases they have a strong offline network and marketing program that will bring significant traffic to their website. But for most small business and even a lot of larger ones who rely on searches, they just have to understand that they will probably have to give up some of the look.

As a former designer I can say that most designers are very very full of themselves and have paper thin egos and get easily offended........... I speak from experience.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by logodesign77

As a former designer I can say that most designers are very very full of themselves and have paper thin egos and get easily offended........... I speak from experience.

No doubt that owes to the fact that many see themselves, not as communicators, but artists.

There is much to be learned from old newspaper typographers.

[MrGamm]

If you mean those designers who think a standards compliance website with 200 24-bit pngs, 500KB fixed backgrounds with tiny little floating details all around, is going to load as fast, run as smooth and attract search engine traffic as well as a flash binary.

Then yes. It is a daily struggle...

Designers always want to do "something different"... however in most cases they are too blind to see that nearly every website they visit on a day to day basis does not do what they think a website can do ( within any sort of reasonable timeframe )

It is a constant trade off... time / money / quality...

I will bend over backwards and sacrifice my time if I think the design is good ( having a good few years of design experience myself ) but I will not sacrifice my time because someone does not understand the technology and feels they can waste my time for something which is ugly / stupid or non-profitable...

[colincartwright]

I feel for you. I design websites and do SEO on them myself. I am a one-man business and have had to learn both skills. I don't pretend to be an expert at either, BUT I do a fair job of making simple websites that work with Google and yahoo. I ALWAYS find that no matter how hard I try to explain to clients that to be number one on google will mean their site may have to look slighlty different or be worded slighlty differently to what they want, they ALWAYS want a pretty site first and usually with text that never mentions the keyword phrases they want to be seen for!

If they donlt take my advice on board, then I give them the 'pretty site' while gently reminding them it probably won't do as well in the SERPS. Then when it doesn't work , they come back to me and ask why and I remind them of what I said originally. Then they listen and let me modify the site so it 'works with the search engines'. You can lead a horse to water, but just try making it drink!

I'm noty sure there is an answer to this, other than for you to try doing the whole job yourself. Its like car designers and the poor engineers who have to try and actually build what the designers have created.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by datajam

The failure is the Search Engines, not the publisher. When the Internet Community quits paying a small fortune repeatedly to chase high Search Engine rankings, gets tired of having to take the time every time Google changes their algorithms, or just decides that they are tired of being led by the nose by the Search Engines then the Search Engines will possibly consider learning how to properly index the Internet.

I agree, the second I get tired of making money I'll follow your idea.

But wait, Google wants us to do nothing at all because it makes their job easer.

[Lorel509]

I've butted heads with enough graphic designers to refuse to work on sites unless I have total control. Several of the sites I've redesigned were crippled by "designers" who didn't know beans about SEO. If the client wants to rank in the search engines then its only common sence to put the SEO person in charge. If they don't care about ranking then let the "designer" do the whole thing and count me out.

And as far as trying to build a site that would mirror a printed brochure--if they won't listen to reason then I just walk away. There are too many jobs out there to be working on a site where you'll be continually stressed out trying to explain things to some who won't listen. I refuse to work for a P.I.T.A. client.

I turned down a job today by someone wanting me to design a website for a Marketing Firm that didn't know how to design a website. My thinking was--they can't be any good at marketing if they don't even know how to design a site.

[seomagician]

I've worked with terrible designers that were jerks and great designer that were the nicest. That being said, many times we SEO types are the "outsiders" and have to work extra hard to get along.

[Webnauts]

Simon, if someone can create an excellent visually appealing and stand out design does not mean that he/she is professional web designer. They may still be professionals, but most probably in print design.

A professional web designer must have full understanding of web navigation, being able to edit correct markup and implement appropriate tags/attributes based on their meanings (semantics), understand documents semantical structure and usability.

Of course an SEO must know all above anyway, since the above are the minimum requirements for on-page search engine optimization.

Now who should lead the design project? If the designers do not have web design experience as I explained above, there is no doubt that the SEO should be fully in charge. Otherwise the project expenses will be far much higher. But if the company does not mind, why should you? Let them pay buddy!

Do you want to laugh? Then read this: 10 ways to piss off an SEO | Alhan Keser

[MrGamm]

Originally Posted by Lorel509

I turned down a job today by someone wanting me to design a website for a Marketing Firm that didn't know how to design a website. My thinking was--they can't be any good at marketing if they don't even know how to design a site.

Hey... At least you have the common sense to turn down the job before you waste your time. I usually explode after wasting a good month of my life, mail the files to the client and tell them to take a hike...

There are too many good jobs out there.

Harvey's makes your hamburger any way you like it... Right... Ask them to serve it to you raw... see how far you get...


Unfortunately... The people who don't know a thing about websites are usually the ones who are both excellent visionaries and marketing agents... You really do have to be careful not to close the doors on the wrong opportunities. Some people are worth bending over backwards for because the whole scope of their project is destined to succeed.

However there is a big difference between a cry baby who wants it their way or no other way and successful people.

But if the company does not mind, why should you? Let them pay buddy!

Wrong attitude in my opinion... It wastes everybodies time... I'd rather work on successful projects and work towards making them more successful...

That being said... I have never met a "good" designer who was not willing to compromise and listen to reason...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by MrGamm

Hey... At least you have the common sense to turn down the job before you waste your time. I usually explode after wasting a good month of my life, mail the files to the client and tell them to take a hike...

There are too many good jobs out there.

Harvey's makes your hamburger any way you like it... Right... Ask them to serve it to you raw... see how far you get...


Unfortunately... The people who don't know a thing about websites are usually the ones who are both excellent visionaries and marketing agents... You really do have to be careful not to close the doors on the wrong opportunities. Some people are worth bending over backwards for because the whole scope of their project is destined to succeed.

However there is a big difference between a cry baby who wants it their way or no other way and successful people.

Allow me to add here two more excellent reads:

http://www.zeldman.com/2008/12/04/20...esign-project/

and

Top 10 Ways to Fire the Client From Hell - Inside CRM

Enjoy!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by imvain2

But back to the original post.

When working with designers or anyone questions something, I simply tell them "function then form".

I tell them that print [graphic] design is different from web [graphic] design. When working in the web world, there are more things to take into consideration, compared to print. A lot of times, I get good designs, but the functionality displayed in the design isn't consistent, it's difficult to understand or difficult to even follow.

Overall, I think the problem that I have had the most is the fact that most of the designers that I work with are from marketing firms who are strictly offline marketers (as in print, tv etc...). They don't understand usability and load times.

I did not read your post before I have posted in this thread. You have a great point.

[rypher21]

that's a pretty interesting question...nice discussion, this things should be cleared...

[Orion]

There's still SEO.. but it's just good designing. Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it.

[adtastichosting]

Originally Posted by Orion

There's still SEO.. but it's just good designing. Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it.

Good point but also seo in its strictest sense is optimizing a website to have the greatest potential of showing up on that first page of a search engine on a relevant search and as long as the game keeps changing there will always be a place for SEO people because its our job to keep up with the game which is a never ending task that takes full time dedication. Most website owners have enough to do without trying to keep up with it all. Thats what they pay us the big bucks for.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Good point but also seo in its strictest sense is optimizing a website to have the greatest potential of showing up on that first page of a search engine on a relevant search and as long as the game keeps changing there will always be a place for SEO people because its our job to keep up with the game which is a never ending task that takes full time dedication. Most website owners have enough to do without trying to keep up with it all. Thats what they pay us the big bucks for.

I would hope that web designers keep up with the game too ... lol ...

in reality wouldn't we all say SEO / Designer what it really boils down to is semantics... lol

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Orion

There's still SEO.. but it's just good designing. Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it.

My thoughts exactly.

Real marketing starts after the site is finished.

[nipplecharms1]

Originally Posted by janeth

My thoughts exactly.

Real marketing starts after the site is finished.

Janeth, I might have to disagree here a bit. After the product itself, its all about the marketing, first, middle and last. I have been in Marketing (albeit print and production) all my adult life. The marketing must encircle the product. Its not the package first, nor is it the distribution channels. Its the product. $hit in a nice wrapper, with a great jingle and a hot, fully optimized site is still $hit!

I have seen great websites that I wish I could steal for our site but the product was crap or too expensive or the wrong color. I think its the product and the the vision for the product that is most important and that is where you start. Everything else, including web or print or brick and mortar are a distant 3rd.

And I did I mention market research too? I just wanted to try and give a more 30,000 answer!

No Offense.

But to answer the original question, working hand in hand is nice, but after the product, the marketing is most important, so all ancillary endeavors should follow it.

Michael

[janeth]

Originally Posted by nipplecharms1

But to answer the original question, working hand in hand is nice, but after the product, the marketing is most important, so all ancillary endeavors should follow it.

Michael

And with marketing comes a website that is able to convert the traffic.

[seomagician]

When given the choice I'd rather start with a clean slate and build the site and the seo together.

Marketing should start well before the site is designed. This is a problem with so many companies; they leave the marketing plan for later. Even brick and mortar companies think they can have a good product and good location and not do any marketing. Then, they don't understand why the throngs aren't beating down the door.

Good product, great plan, nice site, excellent seo...and away we go.

[adtastichosting]

Originally Posted by Orion

I would hope that web designers keep up with the game too ... lol ...

in reality wouldn't we all say SEO / Designer what it really boils down to is semantics... lol

Lol, hmmm, well somehow that seems to slightly contradict your earlier statement where you said
"Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it". But I am not sure I can agree that SEO/Designer is a matter of semantics, per se. I mean. to an extent perhaps but again it goes back to if designers were really good at seo we seo people that aren't really good at design would be rather superfluous and out of a job.
Fortunately, in my experience even really good web designers that "think" they are really good at seo tend to miss the mark and that keeps me in work.
And I think that can be attributed to certain factors. One is, really good seo might be a little intuitive especially with regard to latent semantic indexing with respect to google and some got it and some aint.
Another is, really good seo requires constant "keeping up with the latest" because it is an ever changing beast and not sure web designers do that for the most part in fact I don't think a lot of SEO people even do that even though they talk the talk they don't necessarily walk the walk because if you are in this business you know there are a lot of 'em on the bandwagon that wouldn't know top-notch seo if it bit 'em in the ass.
Do they (the designers) read Google patent filings, subscribe to dozens of seo periodicals and newsletters (some of which are very pricey), belong to seo-type professional organizations, read blogs, all related to seo? And perhaps more importantly, do they do real-time case studies all geared towards staying fresh with seo and understanding what will work and what won't. Meaning, do they eat, breath, sleep SEO.
And furthermore, I wonder how many designers go out there and do keyword research on a decent group of the keywords that would be most relevant to the client success then pull say the top ten websites that come up for those keywords, break those websites apart from head to toe then factor their web design based upon what they have learned from that process. This too would be a part of really good seo.
Sure there must be elements of seo in all web design but I've yet to meet a web designer that was really very good at seo and I've met alot of web designers that thought they were great at seo but here I am I keep working after the design is all done. The proof I like to say is always "in the pudding." And the pudding in this case is where do you rank once its all said and done.
So in my opinion, in the strictest sense of the definition of semantics, seo and designer are not semantics in that "Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial point or distinction that revolves around mere words rather than significant issues" whereas seo and design are significantly different at least in the strictest form of comparison between seo practitioner and web designer.
At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

[janeth]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Lol, hmmm, well somehow that seems to slightly contradict your earlier statement where you said
"Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it". But I am not sure I can agree that SEO/Designer is a matter of semantics, per se. I mean. to an extent perhaps but again it goes back to if designers were really good at seo we seo people that aren't really good at design would be rather superfluous and out of a job.
Fortunately, in my experience even really good web designers that "think" they are really good at seo tend to miss the mark and that keeps me in work.
And I think that can be attributed to certain factors. One is, really good seo might be a little intuitive especially with regard to latent semantic indexing with respect to google and some got it and some aint.
Another is, really good seo requires constant "keeping up with the latest" because it is an ever changing beast and not sure web designers do that for the most part in fact I don't think a lot of SEO people even do that even though they talk the talk they don't necessarily walk the walk because if you are in this business you know there are a lot of 'em on the bandwagon that wouldn't know top-notch seo if it bit 'em in the ass.
Do they (the designers) read Google patent filings, subscribe to dozens of seo periodicals and newsletters (some of which are very pricey), belong to seo-type professional organizations, read blogs, all related to seo? And perhaps more importantly, do they do real-time case studies all geared towards staying fresh with seo and understanding what will work and what won't. Meaning, do they eat, breath, sleep SEO.
And furthermore, I wonder how many designers go out there and do keyword research on a decent group of the keywords that would be most relevant to the client success then pull say the top ten websites that come up for those keywords, break those websites apart from head to toe then factor their web design based upon what they have learned from that process. This too would be a part of really good seo.
Sure there must be elements of seo in all web design but I've yet to meet a web designer that was really very good at seo and I've met alot of web designers that thought they were great at seo but here I am I keep working after the design is all done. The proof I like to say is always "in the pudding." And the pudding in this case is where do you rank once its all said and done.
So in my opinion, in the strictest sense of the definition of semantics, seo and designer are not semantics in that "Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial point or distinction that revolves around mere words rather than significant issues" whereas seo and design are significantly different at least in the strictest form of comparison between seo practitioner and web designer.
At least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

lol, So, you're the real deal?

[adtastichosting]

Originally Posted by janeth

lol, So, you're the real deal?

lol, well lets put it this way I've been doing this since before Google was even in existence. A huge part of my business is by referral and I stay pretty busy. Clients come to me after they've spent thousands elsewhere then tell me I was the best thing that ever happened to them so that says it all to me. One of the reasons I never even made it to this forum until recently when I finally told myself to dedicate some time to "getting out to places like this and participating with the overall community at large". (and of course lets' be honest, once a marketer, always a marketer).
My site ranks in the top ten on competitive keywords and phrases that are integral to my own seo business and competing with the likes of Bruce Clay and SEODmoz which I get a chuckle over because my rates are totally out of par with theirs I mean c'mon $1000 per hour, $15,000 for a site assessment?? Surely they must look at me with just a little bit of distaste.
But then my philosophy as a business when I first started my business is about "championing the small business" and my rates are reflective of that so yeah I am not getting rich but I am doing something I am very good at and enjoy doing so I keep telling myself that is what it is about. (Yeah I have to keep telling myself that).
Am I the only deal? No, there are other very well qualified practitioners in my business that are even similar to me in philosophy, integrity and talent and perhaps even price. But I consider myself part of that class, yes and it is deserved I believe because it is earned from many years of long, hard work.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Lol, hmmm, well somehow that seems to slightly contradict your earlier statement where you said
"Long as there's people out there making sites that don't know how to do it right.. there'll be room for someone to optimize it". But I am not sure I can agree that SEO/Designer is a matter of semantics, per se. I mean. to an extent perhaps but again it goes back to if designers were really good at seo we seo people that aren't really good at design would be rather superfluous and out of a job.

It's not contradictory... Designers like myself have been doing what became known as SEO for more than 10 years now! For a couple of those years as the SEO industry began to evolve, it separated, however that separation was truely those persons that were looking for the easy quick fix or (black hat) techniques to rocket their clients sites up and make a fast buck. The rest of us hung in there doing what we knew worked, continually (attempting to) keep up with the vast and quickly expanding reservoirs of knowledge being creating in the Industry.

SEO consists of semantic markup. Coding a site that's accessible and contains valid code... That is optimization....

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Another is, really good seo requires constant "keeping up with the latest" because it is an ever changing beast and not sure web designers do that for the most part in fact I don't think a lot of SEO people even do that even though they talk the talk they don't necessarily walk the walk because if you are in this business you know there are a lot of 'em on the bandwagon that wouldn't know top-notch seo if it bit 'em in the ass.
Do they (the designers) read Google patent filings, subscribe to dozens of seo periodicals and newsletters (some of which are very pricey), belong to seo-type professional organizations, read blogs, all related to seo? And perhaps more importantly, do they do real-time case studies all geared towards staying fresh with seo and understanding what will work and what won't. Meaning, do they eat, breath, sleep SEO.

They eat sleep design (if they are half way decent anyway) and it includes all of the above, definitely. I would go so far as to say that some days (weeks) it's more than 50% of our time reading! lol

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

And furthermore, I wonder how many designers go out there and do keyword research on a decent group of the keywords that would be most relevant to the client success then pull say the top ten websites that come up for those keywords, break those websites apart from head to toe then factor their web design based upon what they have learned from that process. This too would be a part of really good seo.

AH HA! This is where I was getting to... How can keywords be part of SEO? They aren't.. Description, Keywords, Title, everything that has to do with 'Copy' comes from a Marketing Department and is therefore SEM (Search Engine Marketing)... This is why if you want to be a commercial writer you're going to be hired by a marketing department and they'll have you writing the copy for their website and your courses all include writing for the web now.

This brings me back to what used to be SEO.. is really just good Design.. SEM is and always will be a separate and vitally important part and required to get the rankings you want.

Optimization and Marketing exist in all forms of media promotion.. Job definitions don't change just because a new media comes along.. The web industry is essentially the same as print, radio or tv.. each one of those mediums has their technical (optimization) functions and their marketing functions.

To optimize a site is simply to have it as close to technical perfection as is possible: valid, accessible, usable, semantic markup.

To market something is to promote it via media whether that media be radio, tv, print, or web.

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Sure there must be elements of seo in all web design but I've yet to meet a web designer that was really very good at seo and I've met alot of web designers that thought they were great at seo but here I am I keep working after the design is all done. The proof I like to say is always "in the pudding." And the pudding in this case is where do you rank once its all said and done.

Definitely have a point there... and it comes down to as long as there are designers out there not doing a good job, there'll be room for designers who know what they are doing.

The above statements are in no way meant to offend. They are provided as my opinion, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinions no matter how wrong they are.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

My site ranks in the top ten on competitive keywords and phrases that are integral to my own seo business and competing with the likes of Bruce Clay and
SEODmoz

What keyword is that?

[Orion]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

My site ranks in the top ten on competitive keywords and phrases that are integral to my own seo business and competing with the likes of Bruce Clay and SEODmoz which I get a chuckle over because my rates are totally out of par with theirs I mean c'mon $1000 per hour, $15,000 for a site assessment?? Surely they must look at me with just a little bit of distaste.

Not a difficult thing to do.. When our site started out ranking them in natural they called us and tried to get us to pay to come to their seminars lol..

Kudo's on the small business approach.. it's also where I target, HUGE market, but as you mentioned, not a lot of money. Though it would be nice to get someone to pay $15,000 to assess their site! lol

Sounds like you've been doing this about as long as I have, but since the term SEO is fairly new in the scheme of things, I'm going to take a stab that you started as a designer??? (hehe when I started the most advanced editors were note pad and Netscape Composer lol)

[Orion]

I do understand what you're saying.. however go back to school...
College / Universities teach what you call SEO as part of a Marketing degree and it's called Search Engine Marketing or Internet Marketing... What I defined as SEO is all taught as part of a Web Design course.

The law now requires that websites be marked up (designed) to conform with Accessibility guidelines (which of course require semantic markup and all the other things that the search engines recommend and a LOT more)...

So if someone designs a website that won't get it's owner nailed for a fine then it's fully optimized anyway and only requires to be marketed well... ie. target for each page identified analysed researched, optimum title, description, keyword created based on the content of that page. Even layout will be given to the designer by the marketing team in order to maximize the conversions based on the psychology of that particular demographic that each page is being targeted to. This is basic marketing 101 (what I studied in college anyway without the words web or Internet in there).

Which brings it all back to semantics and the meanings we attach to certain words or phrases.

Our 'small business' businesses need to start using the same terminology that big business and government are using or we'll be sorely left behind..

[adtastichosting]

Originally Posted by Orion

Not a difficult thing to do.. When our site started out ranking them in natural they called us and tried to get us to pay to come to their seminars lol..

Yes I agree it's a little competitive on some terms and there are a few I am targeting right now as being the most competitive but I am happy with ranking on ones that I consider "money terms" meaning the person using them is searching to make a buying decision and I get alot of queries from them such as one of my favorites that I can think of offhand (to answer an earlier query by janeth) is search engine marketing rates but there are dozens of other I have seen my rankings in the top ten on and many of them juicier than that.

Originally Posted by Orion

Kudo's on the small business approach.. it's also where I target, HUGE market, but as you mentioned, not a lot of money. Though it would be nice to get someone to pay $15,000 to assess their site! lol

lol, agreed. Of course he is working with huge corporations I assume with mega sites, not sure I would even embrace that I like helping small businesses and even for that kind of money everything has its own scale to things probably more work and headaches than I want to do. Like you say not a lot of money but it has its place and its steady. And there is plenty of market for you and me both and plenty of others considering according to a survey there are over 5 million businesess in the US alone without a website so plenty of opportunity for growth.

Originally Posted by Orion

Sounds like you've been doing this about as long as I have, but since the term SEO is fairly new in the scheme of things, I'm going to take a stab that you started as a designer??? (hehe when I started the most advanced editors were note pad and Netscape Composer lol)

Actually no I didn't start as a designer and that's always been my weak area so to speak although I have had to get my share of professional training like CIW professional and so forth simply because of how my business has grown over the years in order to best serve the interests of the business. But I am the first to admit to clients that design is not my area of expertise. Actually I started out first as a marketer. In the old days I bought my first domain name back when we had to wait weeks or months to get one. I kind of latched onto the game right off and built it up to considerable traffic and dominance in the search engines and sold it for 10k. ( I actually got into the Internet because my profitable subscription based bulletin board which was my full time business and payed my bills one day just sort of died because the Internet came around so I went to the Internet and never looked back) .
Then I sort of become what we now call affiliate marketing and ended up becoming a top dollar producer for a few companies out there. Then friends and family and their friends and family kept asking me for help marketing their sites on the internet so finally in 1999 I started the company officially because I got tired of helping everyone for free and figured it was time to start charging for it. But even before it was called seo or sem I simply said I was an Internet Marketer and the primary service I sold was internet marketing which we now call seo/sem since it was always about getting to the top of search engines. Of course now you have social marketing and much more to stay in the game.
Over the years I have gravitated to hosting and web design simply to try and offer as much of a one-stop shop as well as of course hosting is a more steady residual monthly income over the long run as I see it but I leave the web design to the professionals lol and pay others to do that I have two really good designers on staff and outsource whatever else I need or work directly with the clients designer(s).

But yeah, I have designed my share of websites in notepad back in the old days lol. Our websites weren't very pretty back then compared to now but they were functional.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by janeth

What keyword is that?

Exactly Janeth. I would like to know those keywords too. I also would like to see at least one sample of those professional web sites his designers are designing.

[adtastichosting]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Exactly Janeth. I would like to know those keywords too. I also would like to see at least one sample of those professional web sites his designers are designing.

Lol, well I think I already answered the first question at least I gave up one example but I am not going to go through the entire list you can search and I'm sure you'll find me here and there.. Am I being vetted here, lol.
Some examples of client sites would be lets see, www.chyennemorningstar.com, www.internationalcellular.com, www.theolivetreegallery.com, www.ecositeawards.com , a cms system we just built for a client: www.the-magic-of-life.com. All different in their own way and in some cases not how I might have done things but you give the client what they want and makes them happy and work backwards or forwards from there.

[Webnauts]

Lets see the text-version of the web sites, how google sees them:

A. www.chyennemorningstar.com
1. Web Site with splash pages are called professional now?
2. I love what google can see there: Chyenne Morningstar | The Eyes of Chyenne Soulbird | Spiritual Journey

B. www.internationalcellular.com
1. Look at the SEO friendly semantical structured web site: Rent Cell Phone | Blackberry Rental | Satellite Phone Rentals | Handheld GPS Rentals | World Cell Phone Rentals

C. www.theolivetreegallery.com
1. What about this? The Olive Tree Gallery|Artwork, Sculptures, Custom Framing

D. www.ecositeawards.com
1. What about this? Ecology Website Award | Environmental Awards | Green Web Awards | Website Awards Program

E. www.the-magic-of-life.com
1. What about this? - The Magic of Life

How does google see for example my web site? SEO Workers - Search Engine Friendly Web Design & Optimization Company

I will leave the members here decide which of the above websites have something to do at all with semantical structure, in other words with SEO.

I am not going into canonicalization issues, markup validation, and a lot more, if this post is enough. If not, let me know.

I think you have no chance buddy. The show is dead. Does anyone disagree with me?

P.S. Once again: Which keywords you are outranking Bruce and Rand please.

[Narasinha]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

C. www.theolivetreegallery.com
1. What about this? The Olive Tree Gallery|Artwork, Sculptures, Custom Framing

Personally, I found this one to be rather annoying. First comes a "splash page" with a link to the actual site content, which then opens in a new window (Why would I want to leave the splash page open, particularly when I find them quite distasteful in the first place?). Then I'm presented with a link to the gallery itself, which looks nothing at all like the first pages of the site. It's not that I don't think the products are quite nice, but the products are a couple clicks away from the home page. Let's see something up front.

[adtastichosting]

Well now it just feels like you are trying to dis me. First of all you show caches on two sites the front pages which are flash and not the main pages which hardly matters anyways because its all indexed by google. And secondly it doesn't really matter to me whether you think the structure is perfect or not what matters is whether the client is ranking on the first page of google for the keywords and phrases they want to be ranking on and quite frankly they are and are doing so within the balance of providing them the seo to do that and balancing what they want to see on the page which is often a difficult task as you may know if you work with any number of small businesses like I do.
And secondly, I openly admitted I am not a web designer by trade and others do this. Furthermore its within the constraints of what the client wants not necessarily what you want. And these are not 20k websites. I work with small businesses and anyone that does would know its a process not unlike pulling teeth to get things developed to the stage they really should be at and that generally the budget is very low so you do get what you pay for. You should have seen these sites two or three development stages ago this is a noticeable improvement and its a graduated process when you work with low budget clients to get them where they probably should be.
And then I did mention at least one keyphrase that competes as mentioned and nowhere did I say I "outranked them" I said I am on the same page as them for many keywords and phrases and this is true. Am I going to lay you out a roadmap to my business, I think not in fact it looks like you just want to try and tear apart my business in your own mind and herein but irregardless its a successful business I stay busy my clients are happy and are getting the returns from my services they seek and that's all that really matters in the end all.

[Webnauts]

I took my previous testing to a next level with a spider simulator, providing more detailed information about what the bots see and perceive (including semantical information):

Site A: Spider / Crawler simulator for websites :: oyoy.eu search engine tools

Site B: Spider / Crawler simulator for websites :: oyoy.eu search engine tools
What I also find funny is that on the homepage is a valid XHTML button and validates XHTML, but all other pages do not validate. I felt mislead at some point. Anybody else?

Site C: Spider / Crawler simulator for websites :: oyoy.eu search engine tools

Site D: Spider / Crawler simulator for websites :: oyoy.eu search engine tools

Site E: Spider / Crawler simulator for websites :: oyoy.eu search engine tools

If you view the above, you will see that I am not only missing professional web design, but also on-page search engine optimization, if you want to call it that way.

I would not feel proud if I have done the work for those web sites. And I would never dare to put my name on them. But maybe that is just me.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Well now it just feels like you are trying to dis me. First of all you show caches on two sites the front pages which are flash and not the main pages which hardly matters anyways because its all indexed by google. And secondly it doesn't really matter to me whether you think the structure is perfect or not what matters is whether the client is ranking on the first page of google for the keywords and phrases they want to be ranking on and quite frankly they are and are doing so within the balance of providing them the seo to do that and balancing what they want to see on the page which is often a difficult task as you may know if you work with any number of small businesses like I do.
And secondly, I openly admitted I am not a web designer by trade and others do this. Furthermore its within the constraints of what the client wants not necessarily what you want. And these are not 20k websites. I work with small businesses and anyone that does would know its a process not unlike pulling teeth to get things developed to the stage they really should be at and that generally the budget is very low so you do get what you pay for. You should have seen these sites two or three development stages ago this is a noticeable improvement and its a graduated process when you work with low budget clients to get them where they probably should be.
And then I did mention at least one keyphrase that competes as mentioned and nowhere did I say I "outranked them" I said I am on the same page as them for many keywords and phrases and this is true. Am I going to lay you out a roadmap to my business, I think not in fact it looks like you just want to try and tear apart my business in your own mind and herein but irregardless its a successful business I stay busy my clients are happy and are getting the returns from my services they seek and that's all that really matters in the end all.

If everything you claim above are facts, then allow me to say congratulations! And be sure I have no wish or need to ruin someones business or reputation. But I cannot keep myself back when people are praising themselves to heaven showing off stuff that myself and I am sure others too can not see the professionalism claimed.

My apologies if you felt offended, and I think it would be wise that we go back to topic and stick on it.

[Narasinha]

Originally Posted by adtastichosting

Well now it just feels like you are trying to dis me..

No offense was meant. Let's go back to something you said earlier in this thread, that I think is one of the many important issues:

...the site has to be designed within industry standards...

Keeping up with the evolving standards is difficult at best, but in my opinion, it gives a site an advantage over those that do not comply with the standards. The semantic structure of pages helps the bots (consider them to be users who are both deaf and blind) analyze the content. If we can "spoon-feed" the content to the bots in the best possible way, we can make great strides in the organic search results.