Who What When Where and Why?

[CraigAllen]

I was taught by my mentor that one should never use more than 18 keyphrases in the keyword content tag of a site. However, that seems to be easily disputed by many other sources. Now the question comes up, when submitting a site to some search engines, they request you type in a description and keywords in their submission page... do these need to be an exact copy of the description tag content and the keywords in your metatags or can you submit using related keyphrases that still relate to the site being submitted?

[fathom]

Most search engine do not use Meta data as qualifying info for websites - thus the simply anser is "no".

A tip for directories though the keywords selected should not be a repeat of title or description words as you will automatically be found anyway and the duplicated content does improve results.

Example: if your description used "search engine optimization - adding marketing, ranking, positionin, promotion to the keyword section will allow your listing to appear for these variations, where you wouldn't if not in title, description, and not used in keywords.

[minstrel]

Originally Posted by fathom

Most search engine do not use Meta data as qualifying info for websites

Without negating the remainder of your post, Fathom, isn't "most search engines" a bit of an overstatement?

Most people believe that Google does not use information in meta tags, although some questions have been raised recently about the Description tag.

However, Yahoo! and MSN Search, according to their instructions to webmasters, do use them -- they represent two of the big three search engines.

Other (lesser) search engines reportedly using the keywords meta tag include AltaVista, Infoseek/Go, and Inktomi.

See The keywords meta tag: far from dead.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by minstrel

Without negating the remainder of your post, Fathom, isn't "most search engines" a bit of an overstatement?

Most people believe that Google does not use information in meta tags, although some questions have been raised recently about the Description tag.

However, Yahoo! and MSN Search, according to their instructions to webmasters, do use them -- they represent two of the big three search engines.

Other (lesser) search engines reportedly using the keywords meta tag include AltaVista, Infoseek/Go, and Inktomi.

See The keywords meta tag: far from dead.

Minstrel - you are correct. My personal opinions really don't apply here.

Back to the question though - the answer is still - no -- you need not repeat keyword meta "precisely" - your input data should however reflect the content of the page/site.

If you website is tourism related in New York city - it is under-productive adding keywords about Niagara Falls. While Niagara Falls is in New York state and a big tourism attraction, and lots of searches you waste resources on something that you don't have.

[flood6]

I agree with what was said above by minstrel and fathom. I would just add that (it has been a couple of months since I had to submit a new site to any SE's so correct me if I'm wrong) if you are submitting to an SE that asks for a description and keywords (second or third tier SE's) they are either not going to spider your site, or they won't have the technology required to compare what you submit with what is in your meta tags and apply this to their algo. So you won't get any boost or penalty for using strictly duplicate information in your submitted information and in your meta tags. As technology trickles down, I imagine this will change sooner or later.

And if it is technically a directory rather than an SE that you are submitting to, they won't really compare what information you submit to your meta tags. They will (if anything) compare your submitted information to what is visible to visitors.

Just wanted to tack that on. If you disagree, let me know, like someone recently told me in an email, "I'm too hard-headed to be offended".

[masterlear]

I stopped using keywords and phrases over a year ago. I found myself spending more time trying to keep up with the ever changing alogs than actually designing sites for my customers. So I started doing some research using the search results generated from Google, Yahoo, and AltaVista. I typed a search phrase and visited the top 5 for each SE and discovered 90% of the results didn't have Meta Data at all. Thinking that was odd, I kept trying various other search terms. I eventually took my keywords meta tag out of my pages and after a month or so I noticed my site ranking within the top 3 at all 3 SE. Just thought you might find that interesting.

[adore]

It sounds quite interesting, but on the other hand I'm pretty sure that using meta data doesn't hurt your rankings (provided it's logic) and can help in some other, smaller search engines as well...

[CraigAllen]

Masterlear, I hear you. I, too have noticed a lack of metatag usage in many top ranking site's code. I still use it in my clients' sites for the few search resources that it may help with.

[mythman]

You say there should be less than 18 "keywords" (or "primewords" or "university-education words" or whatever). Well, idealistically (in the utopia whence Brittany is prime law-person) a search-engine should count all the words the same. (No matter whether the engine started as a postboard for golf scores or as a stock exchange ticker.)

That, of course, makes the human element needed—to filter out entries that jack up their keyword-content without context. I.e. Suppose I have a site that sells empty CD-cases, but business-traffic is not booming. I could—in the Brittany-led utopia—seriously elevate my traffic merely by naming all the pop-stars whose music one might put into the CD-cases, naming all the top fashion-models who date all those musicians, repeatedly reminding all my customers that SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX sells, and (for the more cerebral set) throwing the name "Brittany?" in there a few (hundred) times.

But that would only fool the machines; and I'd only escape punishment from the engine-admin. if I threw "Brittany" in there a few thousand times, (losing the cerebral surfers with the lack of 'question mark.')

Plus—were it a true utopia—Brittany would be the only word that sold anything. Thus she would have all the money in the world—half of which she would give to me (after making sure that Garrett and all the rest were fed)—and the rest of which I'd pro`bly take when she w`arn't lookin'.

...But until the blessed kingdom of Brittany takes its rightful place in the sunshine, all that we web-people can do is write as well as possible and hope that our writing makes the keywords obvious later ... unless we write for the keywords, which I do not (usually).

Oh look; Brittany's magnetic-powers made me stay on the machine past Leno's monologue—and that just ruins the rest of The Tonight Show for me tonight (the guest seem especially like blabbering idiots if I don't have Leno's opening blabber to warm me up to it). Oh well, you liked it ... soft, seductive ... ballroom blitz?

[Dave Hawley]

I, too have noticed a lack of metatag usage in many top ranking site's code.

I have noticed many are cloaked, doorway pages etc but that is not a reason to follow suite in my book. metatags cannot (highly unlikley) do harm and *may* still be used by Google (there is no *proof* either way). But what is used today may not be what is used tommorrow.

Sorry guys, I can see absolutely no positive reason to purposely ommit metatags. In fact, I can only see the negatives!

[janeth]

Hi Dave,

I agree with you I would never leave out meta tags or remove them. But if it was a large site and I had to go back and add meta tags I would rather spend that time on getting links. I do agree meta tags play a role but I would not spend a whole lot of time on them.

Just my two cents. (:

[Mel]

Hi Janeth

Spot on. There are search engines where meta tags do make some small difference, and if traffic from those engines is important to you then its best to use them. Its interesting to me that it seems apparent that Yahoo is using them and Googles director of technology has stated the Google does not, yet many sites rank nearly the same in both engines.

[minstrel]

They also apparently make a difference in MSN Search. Two out of three ain't bad...

[Mel]

Yes Minstrel and you can do better than that since AV use them too.:-))

I think the more relevant question might be How much difference do they make to the rankings in the engines which use them?

[minstrel]

Originally Posted by Mel

Yes Minstrel and you can do better than that since AV use them too.

Yes, AltaVista... and apparently Infoseek/Go and Inktomi. I was emphasizing the "Big Three"...

I think the more relevant question might be How much difference do they make to the rankings in the engines which use them?

Not in my opinion - even if the keywords meta tag makes a only a tiny difference in a small proportion of searches, that would be still enough for me to include it and to avoid advising anyone not to include it for their websites. It's not a difficult thing to add to your pages - why omit something that might provide some benefit or advantage?

[Mel]

Lets see in I can find someway to phrase something so you can agree Minstrel.
How about:
There are more important things to take care of first before worrying about meta tags?

Yes as I have said many times by all means include meta tags, but do not expect to get good rankings based soley on your meta tags, they are at best a minor factor.

If rankings are what you are after, your page title, onpage content and inbound links are worth far more ranking wise.

[Dave Hawley]

Mel, you are trolling again. Nobody is disagreeing with you.

[Mel]

Sorry Dave but that post was for Minstrel.

[minstrel]

Okay then, let me answer:

Mel, you are trolling again. Nobody is disagreeing with you.

For example (one of many):

Originally Posted by Mel

do not expect to get good rankings based solely on your meta tags

...as if I or anyone else actually said this.

[Chatmaster]

Has anyone noticed the use of X-Meta tags?

[brandblast]

I have to disagree that meta tags are a minor factor in search engine optimization, based on all this thread the ONLY search engine that doesn't use meta tags is google, based on that information alone it's clear that meta tags aren't going anywhere for a while.

Now I can see why so many people are confused when they try SEO. There are so many theories out there and no definitive source that it's a trial and error game for most.

[minstrel]

Right on,brandblast!

[Mel]

Originally Posted by brandblast

I have to disagree that meta tags are a minor factor in search engine optimization, based on all this thread the ONLY search engine that doesn't use meta tags is google, based on that information alone it's clear that meta tags aren't going anywhere for a while.

Now I can see why so many people are confused when they try SEO. There are so many theories out there and no definitive source that it's a trial and error game for most.

I agree there Brandblast there are just too many theories with no experience behind them.

I invite those who feel that the keywords meta tag is important to optimization efforts to take one of their pages that ranks well at MSN, remove totally the keywords metatag and seeing how much, if any,difference it makes in the ranking of the page. Don't take my word for it try it yourself and see if you notice any difference.

I know, I know, there are all kinds of theories that every tiny bit helps and there is that theorectical situation where it just might be the 1/1000% needed to nudge you past another page, but what I am suggesting is that it really doesn't help much in real life.


As a concrete example try the search nutritional supplements in MSN. The #1 result out of 540,000 does not have a keywords metatag (or a page title for that matter) so lets look at the #2 result which uses this keywords tag

<meta NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="liquid vitamins, vitamins, vitamins and minerals, health supplements, health products, nutritional supplements, nutritional, products, antioxidants, liquid, vitamin supplements, minerals, liquid minerals, liquid vitamins and minerals, health, supplements, organic, natural, amino acids, enzymes, anewlife">

Where the search phrase is only one of 27 terms in the tag. How much can that help?

[minstrel]

Originally Posted by Mel

I know, I know, there are all kinds of theories that every tiny bit helps and there is that theorectical situation where it just might be the 1/1000% needed to nudge you past another page, but what I am suggesting is that it really doesn't help much in real life.

Based on? When we have the search engines in question advising people that this is one of the factors they should consider in creating webpages versus an individual telling us it's a waste of time, who are we to believe?

As a concrete example try the search nutritional supplements in MSN. The #1 result out of 540,000 does not have a keywords metatag (or a page title for that matter) so lets look at the #2 result which uses this keywords tag

<meta NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="liquid vitamins, vitamins, vitamins and minerals, health supplements, health products, nutritional supplements, nutritional, products, antioxidants, liquid, vitamin supplements, minerals, liquid minerals, liquid vitamins and minerals, health, supplements, organic, natural, amino acids, enzymes, anewlife">

Where the search phrase is only one of 27 terms in the tag. How much can that help?

Are you trying to tell us (1) that it doesn't help at all? or (2) that it hurts? or (3) that it's ignored?

[MichelH]

Well, you searched for nutritional supplements and the #2 has this keyword in the metatags, so this means it helps. It also depends in which order the keywords are listed and what the title and description tag show, the content of the web site and the inbound links. I have to agree with the fact that every search engine uses different algorythms, so it would be impossible to make a html code, which gets you listed as #1 in every search engine. I believe that you should always use keywords, as there are lots of SE that still use this as algorythm and drive quality traffic to your web site. IMO, that's the bottom line.