is outgoing links weakening me ?

[the len]

hi

i have a site about t-shirts.

i would like to make a page with links to leading sites of my industry, for 2 reasons: it's a valuable source of info for my surfers, AND some of the sites offer backlinks in return.

2 questions:

1. does having a page with a lot of outgoing links weaken my site?
2. if i have reciprocal links with sites of my industry, is it worth something for ranking or does google ignore it?

thanks

lenny

[ctabuk]

There is a lot of misinformation on reciprocal linking and linking out in general. My thoughts are this.,

If the sites are based on similar anchor text/content/theme/keywords then you are not breaking any guidelines. I have a massive link out in my main site Right to Buy from Council Tenants Advice Bureau (UK) Ltd and I have been using that for over 6 years and have over 1,000 page one SERP results on various search terms. Some of those sites have linked back. But they are all related sites. And you are doing exactly the right thing in thinking about what your readers will want to look at.

So 1 No
2 It cannot do any harm IMO

[bobchrist]

I think the number of outgoing links should depends on the informative pages you link with which can add value to the content of the page.

[janeth]

Outgoing links can hurt you.

1. You are leaking PR

2. If you link to a bad neighbor you could get baned.

3. It could cause your internal pages not to rank as well due to #1

[the len]

Originally Posted by janeth

Outgoing links can hurt you.

1. You are leaking PR
3. It could cause your internal pages not to rank as well due to #1

thought so.

first, is it proven the pr leakage?

would you reccomend to avoid it?
even if i miss incoming links?
or should i put outgoing links only if the other site links back?

thanks

lenny

[janeth]

Originally Posted by the len

thought so.

first, is it proven the pr leakage?

would you reccomend to avoid it?
even if i miss incoming links?
or should i put outgoing links only if the other site links back?

thanks

lenny

Yes, PR leakage has been proven.

I would link out to the sites that I felt would benefit my customers but would use a nofollow tag to keep from giving them PR.

[the len]

is there a way to "nofollow" a link or rather metatag the whole page?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by the len

is there a way to "nofollow" a link or rather metatag the whole page?

Then your links end up with a nofollow tag as well. So the purpose of controlling where the PR flows is of no use at all.

By sending PR to your inside pages it will help them rank higher and then you can link those pages back to your home page helping it rank higher.

[ctabuk]

Sure and Wikipedia really suffers!!! Linking out to related sites is cool.

Here is just one of my link outs
Local councils : Directgov - Directories Now that is massive - The UK Mortgage market is in deep doggy doo, but my site is still attracting new hits everyday.

This forum is awash with OBL's billions of them - has it affected the search results?? Think searcher - create a site that is of interest to the public - create a service.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

- The UK Mortgage market is in deep doggy doo, but my site is still attracting new hits everyday.

1. House prices to stagnate for 'years' - Aussie Stock Forums (Thread started 19th-September-2005, 12:13 PM)
2. More hits, every day, may be because you know this digital media better than most of the traditional companies working in that industry.

[ctabuk]

Not particulary Kgun, I have around a thousand search terms that find the site - so what are your opions on linking out to related sources of information for your potential visitors?

[ctabuk]

I have found a very good forum discussion on this topic - which I think needs to be read carefully and evaluated - some agree with my stance others do not.

How important are outbound links?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

I have found a very good forum discussion on this topic - which I think needs to be read carefully and evaluated - some agree with my stance others do not.

How important are outbound links?

May be an old (2002) classic thread:

<cite>
Hi All,

Are outbound links good / necessary in order to improve my pagerank and my listing in Google?
My site has between 20-30 inbound links with pages with pageranks of 3 to 7. Is it important to link back to them?
Another question, how long does it take to get a pagerank in Google (it is grey at the moment)?
Thanks, Chris
</cite>




My view:

1. I think the heart of the Google model is still votes / citatations / IBL's. I personally do not se a better model for a (non meta) search engine.
2. The interent is still in its infancy: The XML family of technologies will revolutionize web linking etc. Little interest in that thread.
3. Ignore the misunderstandings that have produced the present world. Look at that Google video Transclusion: Fixing Electronic Literature by Ted Nelson. Transclusion is a much broader concept than direct linking in and out as it is done today. Digital books have a large advantage compared to ordinary books, citations can be embedded directly in the book that cite with a link to the source.
4. Some search engines may fear this model, since it will make things much more complicated, programming versus tagging and styling in todays web.
5. Few sites have so many outbound links as mine. I collect, order and rank sites and pages for the surfer / browser and not for a bot. Easy to steal and copy like it is easy to copy Fidelity's investment portfolioes with a time lag. Some funds specializes (specialized) in that business. Sooner or later it is discovered.
6. Read about my view on trustrank here: http://www.blognorway.com/ Do you trust a bot? I would not always.

My experience:

1. I order my domains through a Norwegian registrar. When they come on the internet they have Google ToolbarRank of 4, since the regtistrar may have (had) a linking program if they host the site there.
2. I host my sites by much cheaper hosters, and it is not long before the toolbar rank that you hate (sometimes for good reasons) is zero. So I could have hosted n sites there and sold them with a ToolBar rank of 4.

Originally Posted by minstrel

And you think that by including links to "expert sites" on your web page that you are going to enhance the PR or SE ranking of that page?

Source: Backlinking and smartlinks.

I liked this

<cite>
But apart from that you should think of your visitors before you think of the search engines. They should always have some good links to get away from a page. Sooner or later they will leave it anyway and it's best if they leave it in a positive and constructive way. So give them good and relevant links. Internal links or outbound links as best you can. Links that lead them to answers to those questions that are raised in their minds by reading your page. The better you treat your visitors the more of them will return.
</cite>
view from that thread. But that fits my model and not a software or bot model like Googles adaptive inverted link matrix model of the web.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Sure and Wikipedia really suffers!!! Linking out to related sites is cool.

And Wikipedia uses nofollow tags and has lots and lots more incoming links than most people would be able to get in a life time.

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Here is just one of my link outs
Local councils : Directgov - Directories Now that is massive - The UK Mortgage market is in deep doggy doo, but my site is still attracting new hits everyday.

And we will just take your word for it. Like the time you posted the list that was so long it would not post on WPW but when I looked it was not even a quarter if what you claimed?

I removed your link, just cause I hate it when people always find a reason to link to their own site.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

I have found a very good forum discussion on this topic - which I think needs to be read carefully and evaluated - some agree with my stance others do not.

How important are outbound links?

From your thread

They should always have some good links to get away from a page. Sooner or later they will leave it anyway and it's best if they leave it in a positive and constructive way. So give them good and relevant links.

This guy is an idiot. If I want to leave a page I close the browser or hit the back button. I don't need you to give me a link to follow.

PageRank of a specific page is unaffected by outbound links. Where some people around here worry about PR leak, thinking that they can send that PR to some of their own internal pages, but in reality, most navigation schemes will still recycle most of your PR back to your own pages it only a little going to other pages.

This guys understand PR leakage but is saying it is not enough to worry about. He should have asked for the number of sites being linked out to first.

Somewhat over a year ago it was speculated on WW that placing one or two outgoing links with keyword titles, to high PR sites would eventually be considered beneficial to your own site's PR and/or SERP's. But by the summer of this year that theory had been totally abandoned.

This guy tested it and found that linking out didn't help him any.

I agree there's no reason to think that linking to other sites will boost your PR. The whole concept of PR is predicated on the value of incoming links.

This guy agrees that linking out does not help.

And I forgot this one

from personal experience I do NOT think outbound links are necessary (to external sites I mean)

being a hypocrite, I try and NOT give an outbound link unless it is absolutely essential.

You proved my point.

Thanks,

[ctabuk]

So - have I got this correct Janeth? You would never link out?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

So - have I got this correct Janeth? You would never link out?

I didn't say I would never link out. I would be careful when doing it and wouldn't link just to be linking.

I've got outgoing links all over my site.

[ctabuk]

Originally Posted by janeth

I didn't say I would never link out. I would be careful when doing it and wouldn't link just to be linking.

I've got outgoing links all over my site.

Yes you have Janeth - including youtube -do you see any potential risks in linking there?
Finding information online

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Yes you have Janeth - including youtube -do you see any potential risks in linking there?
Finding information online

Not at all. It's kind of like linking to Google.

But I do not link out on pages I want to rank that page for a keyword.

You are looking at pages I don't care about.

[kgun]

1. An IBL to site A from site B is
2. an OBL from site B to site A.
3. You have no control over IBL's.
4. In a sense you are who you link to.

Without links the the web is dead. Google recalculates trillions of links & PageRank several times per day and Web address total tops one trillion - Internet - iTnews Australia

I only need control over my own small linkbase.

[ctabuk]

Originally Posted by janeth

Outgoing links can hurt you.

1. You are leaking PR

2. If you link to a bad neighbor you could get baned.

3. It could cause your internal pages not to rank as well due to #1

Janeth wrote....
'I didn't say I would never link out. I would be careful when doing it and wouldn't link just to be linking.

I've got outgoing links all over my site.'

So there are rules that you agree with and others that you do not? I would have thought that youtube could be construed as risky - but there again I use them in forum links LOL I only link out to sites that I feel will interest my readers and it has never upset my SERP

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

I would have thought that youtube could be construed as risky - ...

Why? I don't see the point.

[inertia]

As a matter of course I add relevant outbound links to my clients sites to relevant industry pages. I try to concentrate on trusted government and education links but I also have no problem with linking out to other industry related sites. I've seen NO ill effects from this and my SEO works so...?

Its obvious that PR is passed through links or why would we all try and build the damn things but as far as outbound links being "holes in a bucket" then I'm not buying it.

SEOmoz | Google Search Engine Ranking Factors

Quality/Relevance of Links to External Sites/Pages

Do links on the page point to high quality, topically-related pages?

Jonah Stein

Rand, your letting the last SEO secret out of the bag. Shame on you

Barry Welford

This relates to the whole concept of authority and hub websites. What's good for people should translate into value for the search engines.

Russ Jones

Anchor Text Tunneling... Site A => Site B => Site C if Site A links to Site B with the "widgets" keyword, and site B links to C with "widgets", there is added benefit.

Ben Pfeiffer

Yes, quite important for newer sites. Great things happen to those that share in the same group.

[ctabuk]

Originally Posted by kgun

Why? I don't see the point.

There are porn sites and child violence on youtube

[janeth]

Originally Posted by inertia

As a matter of course I add relevant outbound links to my clients sites to relevant industry pages. I try to concentrate on trusted government and education links but I also have no problem with linking out to other industry related sites. I've seen NO ill effects from this and my SEO works so...?

Its obvious that PR is passed through links or why would we all try and build the damn things but as far as outbound links being "holes in a bucket" then I'm not buying it.

SEOmoz | Google Search Engine Ranking Factors

If you're going to do SEO for people and charge for it you really need to understand and study how PR flows.

You might look and say that it does not damage a site, while it could be the difference between being #1 and #2 for a keyword ranking.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

There are porn sites and child violence on youtube

lol

They are removed the second they are seen. Do you think Google is going to ban YouTube?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

There are porn sites and child violence on youtube

That is why you are who you link to. I see no problem linking to an educational video on YouTube.

That free education is good for the web surfer, but bad for Viacom.

[inertia]

This goes beyond PR. Citing other sources is one of the essential aspects of the WWW, why would google try to damage that fundamental by making outbound links a bad move? It makes no-sense.

If i find a site with loads of good info which relates to my clients product or service then im going to put that on their site in support of their content. If that content reinforces the sale/service then thats even better (im thinking more government grant pages or legislation there).

I have NEVER seen a client loose traffic/ranking from adding some outbound links.

@janeth Have you?

I can show you evidence in support of relevant outbound linking but what about the opposite?

[ctabuk]

Actually Janeth there was one of a fight in the UK that stayed on youtube for long enough for SKY to do a feature on it. But I agree, by and in large they are better monitered than they used to be.

No - Google will not chop off a leg. But I think that you will probably have to agree that linking out to certain authority sites, as Inertia stated - the .govs etc does assist in providing the bots with the opportunity of seeing who you link out to and if they find good anchor text etc they will think of you as being an 'authoritive hub'

[janeth]

Originally Posted by inertia

This goes beyond PR. Citing other sources is one of the essential aspects of the WWW, why would google try to damage that fundamental by making outbound links a bad move? It makes no-sense.

If i find a site with loads of good info which relates to my clients product or service then im going to put that on their site in support of their content. If that content reinforces the sale/service then thats even better (im thinking more government grant pages or legislation there).

I have NEVER seen a client loose traffic/ranking from adding some outbound links.

@janeth Have you?

I can show you evidence in support of relevant outbound linking but what about the opposite?

Maybe you should start by reading this

Pagerank Explained. Google's PageRank and how to make the most of it.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Actually Janeth there was one of a fight in the UK that stayed on youtube for long enough for SKY to do a feature on it. But I agree, by and in large they are better monitered than they used to be.

No - Google will not chop off a leg. But I think that you will probably have to agree that linking out to certain authority sites, as Inertia stated - the .govs etc does assist in providing the bots with the opportunity of seeing who you link out to and if they find good anchor text etc they will think of you as being an 'authoritive hub'

Read the link you posted above. That theory has already been disproved.

[ctabuk]

No Janeth - you have yet to disprove anything - you find one site - just one with authoritive links in and out that is not doing well in SERP - you contradict yourself - over and over again - it reads like 'Do as I say - not as I do'. You link out - how's your SERP????

[inertia]

Can I tell people of a funny occurrence?

I tried to pay back a hip hop associate of mine (he made a track about me being an internet nerd) by putting a link on my cash cow home page. I used his pseudonym as the link text and linked to the home page of a gay hip hop site (im not homophobic but he is!).

As i was pretty sure that my link was the best quality link he had online (with his pseudonym as the link text) the idea was that this gay hip hop site would appear when you googled his name. As he googles his name quite a bit this would have been hilarious and the perfect revenge!

Within 3 days the link had been picked up and my home page appeared number one for his pseudonym! He saw it, spotted the link, followed it and fully clocked my plan! Game over.

[ctabuk]

Originally Posted by janeth

Maybe you should start by reading this

Pagerank Explained. Google's PageRank and how to make the most of it.

Well I think you will find that Phil Craven had a few problems with a certain Michael Martinez over that post and the questions he raised were never replied to. Linking to authoritive sites is excellent SEO.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by inertia

Can I tell people of a funny occurrence?

I tried to pay back a hip hop associate of mine (he made a track about me being an internet nerd) by putting a link on my cash cow home page. I used his pseudonym as the link text and linked to the home page of a gay hip hop site (im not homophobic but he is!).

As i was pretty sure that my link was the best quality link he had online (with his pseudonym as the link text) the idea was that this gay hip hop site would appear when you googled his name. As he googles his name quite a bit this would have been hilarious and the perfect revenge!

Within 3 days the link had been picked up and my home page appeared number one for his pseudonym! He saw it, spotted the link, followed it and fully clocked my plan! Game over.

Note Janeth has her first / second internet home at the home of PageRank (PageRank Explained and how to make the most of it - link above), so she knows everything about that.

[ctabuk]

Maybe Janeth would care to take it up with
Finding Link Sources & Building Topical Authority Links : SEO Book.com


Or even better
SEOmoz | Nailing the Coffin Shut on the "Don't Link to External Sites" Philosophy

[janeth]

Originally Posted by kgun

Note Janeth has her first / second internet home at the home of PageRank (PageRank Explained and how to make the most of it - link above), so she knows everything about that.

That means nothing at all.

The content on the site ranked for a non competitive keyword. What does that prove?

[inertia]

How Good Is The Mainstream Media At Linking Out?

This is quite interesting!

[janeth]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Maybe Janeth would care to take it up with
Finding Link Sources & Building Topical Authority Links : SEO Book.com

SEO Question: Many people tell me to get authoritative links. How do I find authoritative links? SEO Answer: It helps to get links directly from sources that would be considered trusted seed sites in algorithms like TrustRank or topical hub and authority sites in Topic Sensitive PageRank.

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Or even better
SEOmoz | Nailing the Coffin Shut on the "Don't Link to External Sites" Philosophy

Arguments against linking out to other sites:

1. If the original PageRank formula holds true, and no other algorithmic elements are in place to benefit sites and pages that link out, you could be costing yourself a small fraction of potential link juice.
2. Visitors might click those links and never come back to your site.

[inertia]

Originally Posted by janeth

you could be costing yourself a small fraction of potential link juice.

But what you loose in PR (minimal) you gain in topical relevance and trust?

Originally Posted by janeth

Visitors might click those links and never come back to your site.

Target blank and you wont!

[ctabuk]

Janeth - please read the whole article - those are called 'rhetorical questions'

[kgun]

Originally Posted by janeth

That means nothing at all.

The content on the site ranked for a non competitive keyword. What does that prove?

You refer to this

Originally Posted by inertia

I used his pseudonym as the link text and linked to the home page of a gay hip hop site (im not homophobic but he is!).

Within 3 days the link had been picked up and my home page appeared number one for his pseudonym! He saw it, spotted the link, followed it and fully clocked my plan! Game over.

My bolding.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by inertia

But what you loose in PR (minimal) you gain in topical relevance and trust?


Target blank and you wont!

A second ago you were doing SEO for clients without knowing that linking out to them caused you to loose PR.

I'm guessing that you now understand that part.

The topical relevance and trust theory is getting on out there.

Let's see

1. Topical relevance. My site is not relevant to a topic until I link out? Not sure I understand.

2. Trust, Screw the text, design and everything else. You only build trust by who you link to. Your site visitor is so stupid that if you link to a .gov site they will think you are the gov and hire you.

Hell link to the FBI and you can scare them into becoming a client.

[daniboy]

Originally Posted by janeth

Arguments against linking out to other sites:

1. If the original PageRank formula holds true, and no other algorithmic elements are in place to benefit sites and pages that link out, you could be costing yourself a small fraction of potential link juice.
2. Visitors might click those links and never come back to your site.

They're week arguments really when considering the plus points.

It seems to me (my opinion from reading this thread) that you're just taking what you want from all this information just to try to cause a "going nowhere fast" argument and ignoring the balanced facts.

Janeth 1 v's Rest of the world 6,602,224,175

[janeth]

Originally Posted by kgun

You refer to this


My bolding.

Yes, that is correct.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by daniboy

They're week arguments really when considering the plus points.

It seems to me (my opinion from reading this thread) that you're just taking what you want from all this information just to try to cause a "going nowhere fast" argument and ignoring the balanced facts.

Janeth 1 v's Rest of the world 6,602,224,175

Yes but I don't trust most of the world.

Dear SEO Community, It’s Not Me, It’s You - Sugarrae

[inertia]

Originally Posted by janeth

A second ago you were doing SEO for clients without knowing that linking out to them caused you to loose PR.

I'm guessing that you now understand that part.

The topical relevance and trust theory is getting on out there.

Let's see

1. Topical relevance. My site is not relevant to a topic until I link out? Not sure I understand.

2. Trust, Screw the text, design and everything else. You only build trust by who you link to. Your site visitor is so stupid that if you link to a .gov site they will think you are the gov and hire you.

Hell link to the FBI and you can scare them into becoming a client.

janeth did you read my first post?

Originally Posted by me

Its obvious that PR is passed through links or why would we all try and build the damn things but as far as outbound links being "holes in a bucket" then I'm not buying it.

When you refer to PR leaking through outbound links i think youre thinking of it being something like the hole in the titanic!

[inertia]

Originally Posted by janeth

Yes but I don't trust most of the world.

Dear SEO Community, It’s Not Me, It’s You - Sugarrae

Plenty of outbound links on that page! Aargh! What are you doing sugarrae!??

[kgun]

Originally Posted by janeth

2. Visitors might click those links and never come back to your site.

There are many ways that can happen.

Originally Posted by inertia

Target blank and you wont!

As far as I remember, usability guru Jacob Nilsen do not reccomend that model: How to Write for the Web (Full Paper)

I can not remember where I saw it, may be you find it in some of the references (links) at the bottom of that article.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by janeth

The content on the site ranked for a non competitive keyword. What does that prove?

That it is easy to dominate the SERP's with a non competitive KW in the anchor text of an IBL. It has even been observed / claimed that semantic links with relevant anchor text can outrank on site content.

Since the KW was non competitive, it would not hurt his site, but may be his ego.

P.S. If I linked to a site with a word that was only only found in that anchor text, the target would naturally get SERP postion # 1 for that word.