How do you know if a competitor is using Negative SEO against your site?

[Terry Van Horne]

Why don't you read my post where I prefaced the assumption of hosting by posting "assumes the bad guys don't have their own domain server" . I should have posted DNS but, You do not have to be a host to:
Sell domains
register domains
control a domain server ie bind an IP to a domain, simply binding it doesn't give control over the content only the appearance of ownership

The assumption is since you do not have control of the domain name it is a simple no harm (simple mistake) because there is no logical reason to allow the mistaken binding to continue.... or is there?

[AVC]

The "so called 3 fake mirror sites that link to Alan's main banned by Google website" are hosted on the same server with the same IP, by the same web host as the "legitimate websites" Terry.

What is Google to think ? They can see the same IP and use whois data also.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by AVC

The "so called 3 fake mirror sites that link to Alan's main banned by Google website" are hosted on the same server with the same IP, by the same web host as the "legitimate websites" Terry.

What is Google to think ? They can see the same IP and use whois data also.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Were Google "thinking," they'd not have the Title of Alan's legitimate site indexed under the URL of an apparently parked site; if they can't figure out who is the owner, then they should have nothing indexed for that IP Address, rather than seemingly picking a DN at random.

[AVC]

Deepsand, why is Alan putting up maybe 11 of the same sites under different domain names all hosted on the same server and under the same IP, that is the question ?

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by AVC

Deepsand, why is Alan putting up maybe 11 of the same sites under different domain names all hosted on the same server and under the same IP, that is the question ?

To repeat, there is but one site only.

And, Alan neither owns nor controls the vast majority of the DNs that are pointed to his IP Address. Of those few that he owns, they all point to his site. The other DNs are usurpers.

Have you viewed the web archives for each of the DNs?

[AVC]

Really, then why do the "fake sites" link to Alan's main site Deepsand and why are the fake sites hosted on his server also ?

You never answered these vital questions.

[SEO]

Originally Posted by cairo5

<quoted post was spam-removed CD>

Hmph...

Thank you for a classic example of holding somebody else's website in a frame and making it look like it is yours...

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by AVC

Deepsand, why is Alan putting up maybe 11 of the same sites under different domain names all hosted on the same server and under the same IP, that is the question ?

Assumes you can't spoof domain ownership in whois. The tests I was doing did indicate some of what I expected to happen did, Right up to the binding of the domain name to the IP. That indicated there was no website in place for the mirror (the binding didn't take).

AVC my apologies I've been a little distracted with a deadline, you're explaination of the hosts part was dead on, I have not worked with a 3rd party host for about 10 years. I have to contact the host to see why the binding didn't take as expected. I do know that I could have put any ownership I wanted in the whois... don't know if that makes it all "legal like".... which means determining "real ownership" by the whois information is likely a vulnerability.

Originally Posted by AVC

Really, then why do the "fake sites" link to Alan's main site

ummm, if I was doing negative SEO then that would be the first thing I'd do. Crosslinking domains you own has been a baddy for a long time. Have as many sites as you want just don't crosslink them!

Originally Posted by AVC

Deepsand and why are the fake sites hosted on his server also

Umm, likely Alan doesn't own the server, in fact it could be that it is co-incidental they are all on the same IP. I know any smart blackhat puts those domains on separate networks. So if you reverse that it looks exactly like Alan's stuff looks. AVC, we differ in that I'm going to give Alan the benefit of doubt on all he says... because to just try and prove him to be a spammer has no benefit to anyone, he asked for help not to be judged.... if I'm him I make no effort to help because you'll just turn it around. Are you trying to prove Alan is a spammer or negative SEO is just "jail cover" for spammers?

Note I did read where Matt Cutts said Google suspects foul play if you lock your domain records, which, IMO, is just a little too far to the paranoid side. Presumption of guilt is never a good starting point. I bet this group could list twenty reasons why you'd want to lock your records down. Least of which is it is a tell on future endeavors. At the very least they should have a way to tell them you are locking the records and why. This could be an example of why, I'm not convinced one person owns all the sites. IMO, the offenders have a totally different signature/domain naming style. The other looks like throwaway crap a BH would use... they have zero value.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by AVC

Really, then why do the "fake sites" link to Alan's main site Deepsand and why are the fake sites hosted on his server also ?

You never answered these vital questions.

To the contrary, it's all been more than adequately addressed several times.

There are no "fake sites" being "hosted" on Alan's server. All that exists is a bunch of Domain Names whose Name Server records point to his IP Address.

Analogy

There are a whole bunch of telephone directory listings, under various names of people who do not reside at your home, all of which bear your telephone number. Anyone trying to call those people will reach you.

For anyone to conclude that you are somehow related to those other persons and/or are responsible for the incorrect directory listings is to assume facts not in evidence.

[AVC]

Can you tell us how the "fake sites" are being hosted and where they are being hosted Deepsand ??

How about a list of the real sites being hosted on Alan's server and a list of the fake sites hosted on his server (or as you call it, DNS pointing at his IP)

[deepsand]

Asked & answered.

There are no "fake" sites being hosted anywhere.

[SEO]

Originally Posted by AVC

Can you tell us how the "fake sites" are being hosted and where they are being hosted Deepsand ??

How about a list of the real sites being hosted on Alan's server and a list of the fake sites hosted on his server (or as you call it, DNS pointing at his IP)

There is only 1 website... All of the domain names are pointing to the 1 site.

[AVC]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Asked & answered.

There are no "fake" sites being hosted anywhere.

OK, so the domains that Alan "does not own" are hosted on his server by his web host then.

Right Deepsand ?

[deepsand]

See SEO's post above.

DNs are "hosted" only if they have content to be stored; otherwise, they are merely "parked."

The DNs in question have no content, and are improperly parked at Alan's IP Address.

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by deepsand

See SEO's post above.

DNs are "hosted" only if they have content to be stored; otherwise, they are merely "parked."

The DNs in question have no content, and are improperly parked at Alan's IP Address.

Which makes me wonder if the problem isn't the hosts possible misconfiguration of the server. I Know with windows ISA server could do that unknowingly. Not sure what protects/stopped it on the test server. In the test I did the server basically said you had to add content to the site it wouldn't just show what was already at the IP.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

Which makes me wonder if the problem isn't the hosts possible misconfiguration of the server.

The fact that the infringing DNs had been parked, as evidenced by the Wayback Machine's archives, certainly suggests that the party/parties responsible for the NS screwed up.

Given the number of fingers in the pie at the host's end, i.e. different business names, the IP sub-block being parceled out, etal., a case of left-hand/right-hand conflict must certainly be entertained.

[full house]

This had happen to my word press blog. I noticed that the back links that been detect by my blog are all hidden and they are using anchor text of an adult site. After noticing it, I updated my blog and download different tools to protect my blog. And also I removed the hidden links inside my blog's post but I can't removed the hidden links from other site.

I guess this a way of doing bad SEO or a possible hack.

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Given the number of fingers in the pie at the host's end, i.e. different business names, the IP sub-block being parceled out, etal., a case of left-hand/right-hand conflict must certainly be entertained.

I guess the easiest workaround would be to move the site you want with the one DN you want (likely best if it is the one that last placed), park the others. IMO, if Allan does that it will at the very least remove the mirror and some of the negative SEO attack should be alleviated. Not to tell Allan how to proceed but I would be skeptical of the hosts competency at this point. It was this kind of BS that helped me come to the conclusion cheap hosting is exactly that, you often get what you pay for.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

I guess the easiest workaround would be to move the site you want with the one DN you want (likely best if it is the one that last placed), park the others. IMO, if Allan does that it will at the very least remove the mirror and some of the negative SEO attack should be alleviated. Not to tell Allan how to proceed but I would be skeptical of the hosts competency at this point. It was this kind of BS that helped me come to the conclusion cheap hosting is exactly that, you often get what you pay for.

Absolutely agree.

Trying to get a bit player, in any industry sector, to clean up their act is an exercise in futility.

The only viable long-term solution is for him to step up to a reliable host and leave the other affected Registrants to deal with the problem if and when they ever decide to activate their sites.

[AVC]

You both are in error, Alan or his "SEO's" are responsible for these sites, even the "fake sites" not registered in his name and they are all hosted on his server via a shared hosting account.

[deepsand]

We're still waiting for your proof of such.

[AVC]

What IP are the 'Fake Sites" hosted on Deepsand ??

[deepsand]

Asked & answered.

[DesignsOnline]

Originally Posted by AVC

You both are in error, Alan or his "SEO's" are responsible for these sites, even the "fake sites" not registered in his name and they are all hosted on his server via a shared hosting account.

No AVC, You are so totally wrong and so in denial I wonder why you even post your assertations. Im sorry but the truth is it merely makes you look foolish.
Over the period of this thread you have made it clear that you dont understand even the basic principles of dns or how ip addreses work.
So why you should try and present yourself as some kind of expert or authority is a mystery. You would be better off listening and learning from those others on here who have clearly demonstrated an understanding of both this situation and the many others posted. Then eventually you will possibly be in a position to offer a useful bit of advice to someone who asks for help.

Alan doesnt have an 'SEO', and is not even remotely responsible for the many random domains registered by the many other people, the common factor is that they are domains that have been registered and then not used, the holding page that they should have been pointed to is obviously referenced by an ip address, & for some reason the company that they each registered their domains through has assigned the wrong ip address. I have contacted the hosting company and they have corrected the problem by editing the ip address so that it will only work if referenced via Alans domains : alansairportcars.co.uk or alansairportcars.com

This will hopefully be picked up by Google in time and they will realise that only Alans domains hold his website content. We have also contacted the other companies and demanded that they remove the stollen text content, one of the companies appears to have done as requested, the others have either yet to respond or in the case of Gooedge they are still flying in the face of the evidence and trying to claim that the text is orriginal to them and Alan must have copied it from their website (some how he must have managed to do this 6 months before it ever appeared on their website!)

Although not receiving a response from Google, I noticed that some of his pages are now shoing in Googles index under his own domain, so it isnt banned any longer which is good news.
In the meantime Alans has bought a new domain name and commisioned a new website for it, hosted on a new UK host: Alan's Airport Chauffeur Cars service, Wedding Cars, Southend Essex to London

Work on this new website is well underway, but now that the old website is starting to make a reappearance what would you (those of you with a desire to genuinely help and offer useful guidance only please) suggest we do.
Do I set up 301 redirrects to the relevant pages of the new website, (What few backlinks he has point to his old site...)
or should I leave this old site running seperately and see if it makes a come back?
or remove his old website altogether and start from scratch?

Alan doesnt want to use his old alansairporttaxis domain as he isnt offering a taxi service any longer he now concentrates on airport chauffered transfers and wedding cars, also he has now made the move to being a limited company, thus the relevance of the new domain.

[Terry Van Horne]

If he's changes his business then yes a new site is in order. 301 relevant pages and especially those that ranked to a similar page on the new site. if it's new.. then do nothing. When the new site is built entirely 301 redirect the home page to the new site. To maintain deep IBLs be sure to 301 at the page level as well

[Terry Van Horne]

Onlinedesigns... for future consideration what was the setting which the host adjusted to prevent the mistaken highjacking and is it a NIX or Windoze server? I want to do some more work on this and also write a short piece for the company blog.

[DesignsOnline]

The host server for the old website is a Windows server, I dont know what setting they adjusted, they did mention something about a header in ther email, when I get back to my office I will take a look at the email and see if they said what they changed.

I think the fault lies with the companies responsible for the erronious DNS records for all the many spurious domains though rather than Alans old hosting company. However I dont know if the DNS server(s) with the incorrect records are UNIX servers or Windows ones.

In order to set up the 301 redirects does the old website host account need to remain open for a while?
If so for how long? The domains are held in Alans UKreg account, I dont know if the 301 redirects can be done from there and eliminate the need for the old hosting account to be kept open?
Otherwise it will not be practical for him to be paying for 2 hosting accounts long term...

[green8659]

Originally Posted by cpnkurk

This wont be fully automated, but it still is going to make it faster for you.

D/L this Firefox pluggin : seoquake.

Once installed, it gives you a bunch of interesting results, including page rank.

So whit a combination of : link: yoursite.com in google + seoquake; should make your life a little easier.

... hoping this will help you out.

thanks I'm going to try that seoquake pluggin.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by DesignsOnline

The host server for the old website is a Windows server, I dont know what setting they adjusted, they did mention something about a header in ther email, when I get back to my office I will take a look at the email and see if they said what they changed.

I think the fault lies with the companies responsible for the erronious DNS records for all the many spurious domains though rather than Alans old hosting company. However I dont know if the DNS server(s) with the incorrect records are UNIX servers or Windows ones.

In order to set up the 301 redirects does the old website host account need to remain open for a while?
If so for how long? The domains are held in Alans UKreg account, I dont know if the 301 redirects can be done from there and eliminate the need for the old hosting account to be kept open?
Otherwise it will not be practical for him to be paying for 2 hosting accounts long term...

Once the new site is up & running, have your Registrar simply forward the old DNs to the new site. Then you can kill the old hosting account.

Thanks for updating us re. this situation; it's good to know that we've been of help.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

Onlinedesigns... for future consideration what was the setting which the host adjusted to prevent the mistaken highjacking and is it a NIX or Windoze server? I want to do some more work on this and also write a short piece for the company blog.

If WHOIS data is correct, the Server is IIS 6.

[Terry Van Horne]

Onlinedesigns, thanks. Are you sure they didn't say host headers? If so I think I know what they changed and it is likely it was the culprit we thought all along ie: a setting on ISA server (windoze firewall) and the resulting host headers allowing anonymous access by IP.

[DesignsOnline]

This is what they emailed me:

"I've change the host header where it will only answer for
your site on that IP.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance."

[edhan]

Originally Posted by DesignsOnline

No AVC, You are so totally wrong and so in denial I wonder why you even post your assertations. Im sorry but the truth is it merely makes you look foolish.
Over the period of this thread you have made it clear that you dont understand even the basic principles of dns or how ip addreses work.
So why you should try and present yourself as some kind of expert or authority is a mystery. You would be better off listening and learning from those others on here who have clearly demonstrated an understanding of both this situation and the many others posted. Then eventually you will possibly be in a position to offer a useful bit of advice to someone who asks for help.

Alan doesnt have an 'SEO', and is not even remotely responsible for the many random domains registered by the many other people, the common factor is that they are domains that have been registered and then not used, the holding page that they should have been pointed to is obviously referenced by an ip address, & for some reason the company that they each registered their domains through has assigned the wrong ip address. I have contacted the hosting company and they have corrected the problem by editing the ip address so that it will only work if referenced via Alans domains : alansairportcars.co.uk or alansairportcars.com

This will hopefully be picked up by Google in time and they will realise that only Alans domains hold his website content. We have also contacted the other companies and demanded that they remove the stollen text content, one of the companies appears to have done as requested, the others have either yet to respond or in the case of Gooedge they are still flying in the face of the evidence and trying to claim that the text is orriginal to them and Alan must have copied it from their website (some how he must have managed to do this 6 months before it ever appeared on their website!)

Although not receiving a response from Google, I noticed that some of his pages are now shoing in Googles index under his own domain, so it isnt banned any longer which is good news.
In the meantime Alans has bought a new domain name and commisioned a new website for it, hosted on a new UK host: Alan's Airport Chauffeur Cars service, Wedding Cars, Southend Essex to London

Work on this new website is well underway, but now that the old website is starting to make a reappearance what would you (those of you with a desire to genuinely help and offer useful guidance only please) suggest we do.
Do I set up 301 redirrects to the relevant pages of the new website, (What few backlinks he has point to his old site...)
or should I leave this old site running seperately and see if it makes a come back?
or remove his old website altogether and start from scratch?

Alan doesnt want to use his old alansairporttaxis domain as he isnt offering a taxi service any longer he now concentrates on airport chauffered transfers and wedding cars, also he has now made the move to being a limited company, thus the relevance of the new domain.

Yes. Finally this is being cleared and the explanation is easily understood. Guess it will take a while and everything should be back to normal. I had this problem way back and had informed the party to rectify the pointing of IP address. It took around 2 months and everything is normalized.

[SEO]

Originally Posted by deepsand

The only rational reason that I can come up with is that this is a Network Solutions screw-up, that they've here used the wrong IP Address for parking purposes.

Well done deepsand... Looks like You picked it.

Congratulations DesignsOnline on a job well done.

[AVC]

DesignsOnline, please explain why the "fake sites" all pointed to Alan's home page and why they used the same IP if you would, that you have never really explained.

I guess this is just a case of "Negative SEO"

Here is one of the "fake sites" al-hobayb.org - WhoisX Domain Whois - powered by Phurix

Click on the link in the report, it is now heading to one of the hosts pages.

Who told you that the host was responsible ??

I did, because most hosts will ask the client to add any domains to the hosting account and you can only do that with a password and with written instructions, so in the end it is the customers fault or the host is sorry.

[ddfrench]

This has been a lengthy thread, with new background information introduced between conflicting points of view. It would be very helpful if someone would distill the presented facts so we can understand the problems and proposed solutions.

Would someone please make a list of all of the previously-mentioned websites with their IP address, target of their redirects and related characteristics such as duplicate content.

This could be very instructive for the many of us that follow this thread.

[DesignsOnline]

Originally Posted by ddfrench

This has been a lengthy thread, with new background information introduced between conflicting points of view. It would be very helpful if someone would distill the presented facts so we can understand the problems and proposed solutions.

Would someone please make a list of all of the previously-mentioned websites with their IP address, target of their redirects and related characteristics such as duplicate content.

This could be very instructive for the many of us that follow this thread.

There were 2 seperate issues with this that combined to cause Alans website to be temporarily banned by Google.
Poorly adinistered DNS records of an unknown third party company, and other websites stealing and duplicating the text from Alans website.

IP addresses used in dns in error:
Basically, you can pay some hosting companies extra to have a dedicated IP address for your hosting account rather than using a shared ip like many other hosting accounts offer.

Well there was a company that was not Alans hosting company nor anything to do with Alan that appears to have entered a typo in their system , thus assigning an ip address belonging to another hosting company to all their "Parked" domains. This ip address happened to be Alans dedicated IP address.

When the situation was explained to the hosting company that alan paid for the IP address they made some changes in the host headers that prevent any domain other than Alans own domains (the ones assigned to his hosting account) from showing the website, any other that point there are diverted away to a page advertising Alans hosting company instead (free advertising for them I suppose)

[ddfrench]

Originally Posted by DesignsOnline

IP addresses used in dns in error:
Basically, you can pay some hosting companies extra to have a dedicated IP address for your hosting account rather than using a shared ip like many other hosting accounts offer.

Very clear, this is a common practice.

Originally Posted by DesignsOnline

Well there was a company that was not Alans hosting company nor anything to do with Alan that appears to have entered a typo in their system , thus assigning an ip address belonging to another hosting company to all their "Parked" domains. This ip address happened to be Alans dedicated IP address.

This is one issue I may not understand. If someone has a domain name and its DNS record (IP address) is incorrect, the target server or the user's browser should return an error message (404 page not found or domain not found) when that domain is requested. If the only response is some error message for a 3rd party domain, how would that affect Alan's standing with Google?

Originally Posted by DesignsOnline

When the situation was explained to the hosting company that alan paid for the IP address they made some changes in the host headers that prevent any domain other than Alans own domains (the ones assigned to his hosting account) from showing the website, any other that point there are diverted away to a page advertising Alans hosting company instead (free advertising for them I suppose)

This is another issue I may not understand. Most shared web hosting companies have limits on the number of hosted domains within an account. How would a hosting company not know what domains are hosted on their servers? If Alan had a dedicated server, the answer would be different, but I doubt that Alan has a dedicated server.

Re the hosting company's advertisement, I think the hosting company is sending its own advertisement in lieu of the error messages mentioned above (which is understandable).

Please let me know if my thinking is incorrect.

[seo-2009]

an inbound link will not hurt you, SE will devaluate the links from banned sites.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by ddfrench

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignsOnline
Well there was a company that was not Alans hosting company nor anything to do with Alan that appears to have entered a typo in their system , thus assigning an ip address belonging to another hosting company to all their "Parked" domains. This ip address happened to be Alans dedicated IP address.

This is one issue I may not understand. If someone has a domain name and its DNS record (IP address) is incorrect, the target server or the user's browser should return an error message (404 page not found or domain not found) when that domain is requested. If the only response is some error message for a 3rd party domain, how would that affect Alan's standing with Google?

A 404 Error means that there's "nothing there."

However, if a wrong IP Address is entered into the Name Server for any Domain Name, and that Address happens to belong to a real resource, i.e. a DN which has "something there," then a request sent to the former DN will return the content of the latter one.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by ddfrench

Re the hosting company's advertisement, I think the hosting company is sending its own advertisement in lieu of the error messages mentioned above (which is understandable).

Most hosting firms offer a choice of responses for those DNs which do not have their own content; such include:

1) A Generic 404 Error;
2) A Custom 404 Error;
3) A Generic "under construction" page;
4) A Custom "under construction" page;
5) A Generic advertising page;
6) A Custom advertising page.

The Odd Numbered items will bear an IP Address that belongs to the hosting firm itself, that Address being the same for all DNs which elect such option.

The Even Numbered options will bear unique IP Addresses, specific to the DNs which elected such options.

Item no. 6 will frequently be one where the hosting firm and the DN's owner share in any resulting revenues generated by the advertisements.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by SEO

Well done deepsand... Looks like You picked it.

Congratulations DesignsOnline on a job well done.

In hindsight, I did make one small error, owing to bleary-eyed haste; I failed to immediately notice that the NS at the root of the problem, MYDNSSERVER.COM, did not belong to Network Solutions.

[AVC]

Who controlled the name servers on all of Alan's known owned domains Deepsand ?

[deepsand]

Asked & answered.

[AVC]

Oh, that's right, sure thing !!!

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by deepsand

In hindsight, I did make one small error, owing to bleary-eyed haste; I failed to immediately notice that the NS at the root of the problem, MYDNSSERVER.COM, did not belong to Network Solutions.

I assume that you figured that out when you gave Onlinedesigns the BoD. IMO, a lot of this was chasing down an alley we didn't need to go down. I felt from the first page it was a misconfigured ISA server and stayed on that trail until... it came to a dead end at the the host. I was for the most part able to reverse engineer what had happened. Only I thought it was negative SEO not an error. I had one look at the whois for those sites and was convinced it was not the same person managing all the accounts. I still look at those DNs and question their use for anything beyond negative SEO, but... that is off the table so... move on.

One of the things I did in the past when I was doing the ground level stuff was... for every new client or when there is a problem I take a look at what is on an IP address. I have found a few where like in Onlinedesigns case the owner of the domain forgot to tell me they had used a multiple domain scheme, often it shows up with that check. We now also know that sometimes "shit happens" so it is good to regularly check the sites hosted on an IP to make sure your host or client hasn't made a mistake.

DNSstuff.com has some excellent tools for DNS work. I know my brother who admins my servers uses it everytime he sets up an account.

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by AVC

Who controlled the name servers on all of Alan's known owned domains Deepsand ?

AVC you seem like a bright guy but... it's obvious you don't know a thing about how a windoze server is setup and refuse to believe anything anyone posts. Obviously you were wrong and are either a little slow on the uptake or put the blinders on and refuse to accept any detail which doesn't support your flawed assumptions. Why does it seem your only reason to carry on is to slag Onlinedesigns as a cheater not an innocent victim.

[AVC]

Can you answer the question Terry about the name servers, Deepsand can't ?

In your last post about me you said I was right on about the host, so which is it now ??

[deepsand]

"You can't learn what you don't want to know." - Anon.

[AVC]

Terry, give us the summary of how and what actually happened here and how the "fake sites were being hosted by Alan's hosting company" and if this was in fact a case of Negative SEO since you have it all figured out now.

Can you give us a complete report on all of Alan's domains and their related IP's, DNS and so on and a report on all the fake sites and their respective data ?

Here is a starting point:

Fake sites:

Site report for filitheyo.com

Site report for al-hobayb.org

Real Sites:

Site report for alansairportcars.com

Site report for alansairportcars.co.uk