Where to 'place' the SEO profession?

[MJW]

Hello WebProWorld,


I’m an IT student on a work placement, my managers are having me do research on SEO.
Having no prior knowledge on the subject I started surfing the web and scouring forums, and so came to start an account here.
I’ve been following threads in this forum for three weeks and learned a lot in the process, you’ve really got me hooked on the subject now!

Why I started this thread is because I have some trouble ‘placing the profession’.
From what I’ve been reading, SEO seems to be a mixture of marketing & web design, but not fully involved in either.
SEO corrects flaws made by web designers, and ‘delivers the product’ to marketing’s target group search results.

To me it seems that SEO is a profession that exists because of things web designers & marketing folk neglect,
and a lack of communication between the two. In my mind SEO could/should be a secondary skill of a professional web designer,
a skill that a marketing department would make use of. Thus removing SEO as a single profession in larger type companies, if you catch my drift?


I stand here to be corrected. Please tell me your ‘business view’ on this unique profession.


MJW.

[beesknees]

Welcome MJW!

Good questions. I'll give you my opinion, which may vary from others. To me, SEO is easily it's own standalone profession. I'm sure many others would agree that just doing the SEO on a site can take up 8-10 hours per day.

IMHO, SEO has two basic parts - The SEO that happens when you build a site, and the SEO that you do after the site is built. I believe that webmasters and site builders should have a basic understanding of SEO to be considered professional site builders, but I don't think that SEO exists from neglect. As you have probably figured out by now, there are so many parts and pieces to SEO that it would be almost impossible for one person to know everything about both web design and SEO, much less have the time to do it all.

I actually think the reverse of your idea that SEO should be removed as a single profession, especially when you are talking about a larger company. I speculate that I am not alone in that only after my sites are built does the real "work" begin. Obtaining backlinks, managing adcenter, adwords, and other pay per click advertising campaigns, and keeping up on the latest information about SEO not only takes some time to master, but sure keeps me busy!

I can build a great looking website with lots of great content,functions perfectly and passes all validation tests. Plus, I can make sure that I do great SEO on the front end of the site (keywords, layout......). But, if I don't do the back end SEO on it (bulding links, running ad campaigns....), no one will ever even see my site!

[Peter (IMC)]

Actually it is a mixture of Marketing and (html) programming. That is if you look at pure SEO (getting higher positions). Webdesign comes in to play when you want those visitors also to do something on the site. So in the broader view of SEO, it's a mixture of Marketing, Programming and Web Design.

Now there is a problem here.

The problem is that there hardly exist any people that are good at AND web design AND marketing AND Programming. 2 out of 3 is the best that you can get and still of those very few actually exist. Generally people are good at just one thing.

But these people have the same problem as you have. In order to do good SEO you need all 3 skills.

Most SEO's are technical people because HTML knowledge requires learning HTML language. You can not have a feel for it and just know how to program HTML. Marketing and webdesign are less abstract and you could do something without having to learn it first. Wether or not that will be any good is another thing, but you can at least do something. Without HTML knowledge you can't do anything.


This pretty much also explains why comunications between these different fields is so bad. These fields are so different from each other that the focus of one is the thorn in the eye of the others.

You said you´re a student so I'll assume you don't have the experience yet that shows that different departments are really good at not understanding each other. That has nothing to do with comunications, as is often suggested. It's just that priorities for each department are different. It is a very difficult job to get everybody's priorities synchronized, especially in bigger companies and between different companies that have to work together.


The really good SEO is capable of getting priorities synchronized (even if it's just for a short while). Inside a bigger company, consider this person a project manager with the knowledge but not being the one that actually does all the work. (S)He needs to be responsible, develop strategies together with the departments, but specifically not be the person that's doing the actual work.

It would be best to have this person not work in any of the departments but to have her/him report straight to higher management. That will take out the competition factor so people are more willing to agree.

[John Dowler]

These days responsible web designers have to know the ABCs of SEO. I agree that there is an additional important profession of people who know the DEF-Z's of SEO.

If you're dealing directly with a client who has come looking for a website, it's important right up front to introduce the basic concepts. And this isn't easy, considering that much of the work is behind the scenes and must pander to Google's black box. As a web designer I've worked with graphic designers who have a hard time grasping that the elements of design for the web include more than just visual factors.

In a perfect world the client will have a post-launch plan for how they will get people to their website, but unfortunately many will do very little. It can be pretty easy to get the first 50 or 100 links into small sites, but as clients often will not take the steps to achieve this I think more than ever SEO professionals are needed. Hopefully when they start work they will find that the designer has at least had an SEO plan, even if it's rudimentary.

Hopefully SEO pros won't blame us designers for bad planning or poor execution when it's often the client who won't budget time for this or follow our tutorials for researching keywords or getting inbound links!

[SemAdvance]

I think it's a simple enough question to answer.

An SEO is a search engine optimize specialist. I am an SEO but I cannot design a website.

Is a Lawyer also thought of as an Interior Designer as well????

There is your answer.

:->

[bj]

I'm a web designer/developer with a good grounding in SEO/SEM (mostly thanks to this forum!) though I am by no means an SEO expert. I think what you're getting at depends on the company, the client, or a bit of both. I've positioned myself to work with small businesses and nonprofits, and most of my clients need both design work and SEO/SEM but may not be able to afford both as separate and distinct services. So I offer a smorgasbord of services, and try to give them the opportunity to make good choices by explaining the potential future ramifications. And I guess I'm one of those rare animals who considers that skills across the board in all three areas that Peter mentioned are necessary for me to do my job properly. Yes, there's one I'm best at, but without a fairly thorough understanding of the other two, I wouldn't have the strong following I do.

A lot of times choices made early on can make it easier to create a site that will rank well for niche phrases, and I consider my job to include letting clients know what the upside and downside of each choice is so they can make informed decisions. If they pay attention and use the tools I build for them wisely, they end up with decent rankings and respectable traffic.

I can't tell you how many times a client has come to me wanting an entire flash site on a monster template budget, AND they want to rank well in the SEs. Explaining the realities of all that in SEO terms, as well as the budgetary issues, is usually all it takes to get them grounded in reality.

That's been my experience. Hope that helps.

[staker2]

I think the biggest problem with treating SEO as a profession on its own is that higher level executives, who assign budgets for such items, have a hard time attaching a value or ROI to SEO. I am with an agency for all of my local work, and didn't get a job recently because the company in question was reluctant to pay my fee (sorry, 50.00 an hour for a daily commute of 50K plus, not a penny less - I don't think it was unreasonable).

I told my agent, who was completely down on my side of the battle, that they could easily hire a person who was straight of college and all pie-eyed with wondrous ideas like "keyword stuffing is the bomb, wow I'll bet no-one has ever thought of that before", or they could hire someone who has run the gamut of everything that the search engines consider legal or illegal, and not get their site banned from Google in the process of getting it onto the first page. In the end the dollar won, and I'm glad that I didn't get that job because obviously they didn't grok the importance of an experienced SEO professional even with such a simplistic explanation of the difference between experienced and non-experienced. I myself do not fit the role of crazy smart guru, but I could do what this company was asking for (and much more) and have been in the business of performing SEO on my own sites since 1996. I'm just not as scary good as some of the SEO experts of this world, and I am very honest about this fact.

The sad truth is that there are a ton of "professionals" out there who do not get SEO and will probably make mistakes on someone else's dime to learn SEO. That's fine, but it really makes the profession as a whole look like a snake-oil salesman's club. I say if you have someone who is willing to work for you for $20.00/hr, you have yourself a person who doesn't know bubkiss about nothing, and you should stay away. A true professional shouldn't just be telling you what they can do, they should be telling you what they can't do.

To get back to the question - is SEO a profession in and of itself? Yes. Do people in charge of the money realize it? Not unless they are true web marketing professionals, and if they are they are probably busy off making money somewhere else that isn't a stuffy cubicle. I had a hard enough time at one of my jobs convincing my older boss that I needed to be both webmaster and SEO full time in order to give our company the web presence we needed - in fact I didn't and I am no longer there partially because of that.

Until the dinosaurs truly let go of the corporate purse strings, SEO is not a full-time job, but rather a full-time freelancing gig that may get you hired somewhere if you are lucky. I am sure that a paradigm shift will occur on this sometime in the next five years, but until then I would start out with your own business, build a client list, and educate yourself as much as possible on both web development and SEO principles. Spending too much time in school will do you no good - try to get mentored by an SEO professional (or just regularly read these boards - I've been lurking here for years) and see if you can get a few smaller, easier projects to start out with. By the time firms need SEO people full time, you will have evolved your experience to the point that you'll be snapped up in an instant, or you'll have grown your own business to a point where you don't need to worry about a lifelong career somewhere other than your own house. Either way good.

[Zombie Master]

Excellent question, MJW, and one we've all been asking ourselves out here. I personally think SEO professionals are web designers who have gone to the mattresses.

The term, itself, is a bit misleading in my opinion. Most of us optimize for visitors to a site as well as the search engines. We're really VASEO's. Visitor and Search Engine Optimisers.

This is a tightrope, of course, and the ones doing the best for their clients learn as much as possible about how to achieve good rankings (SERP's) without using black hat techniques.

When it's done right, wonderful things can happen... like becoming #1 for "french attractions" even when you're an Irish site.

The WWW is a fast-moving river but many things stay constant, like well-written text, good navigation and responsible content.

So how do you label our profession? I'd agree with beesknees. We really are a profession all our own.

[mawells]

SEO does require a lot of different skills but the site's architecture is #1 - that means a search-engine-friendly design. An SEO cannot do an effective job coming in after the fact and trying to make an "invisible" site visible (I mean invisible to search engines not site visitors).

So step #1: Get the site designed by someone who understand SEO so that it can be properly indexed.

Next comes the research (which is actually done before the site is built so that we can incorporate the keyword phrases into the proper places within the site content). This does not mean keyword stuffing - it means top-of-the-line copy writing that pleases both site visitors and search engines.

Step #2: research keyword phrases. You need to know how people are looking for your goods and services and you need to understand the best opportunities your site may have for high rankings. You need targeted but popular phrases.

Once the site is launched (or relaunched, as the case may be) then comes the submission and link-building process. This is the most tedious and least appreciated aspect of SEO (from a client's viewpoint you're not really doing anything because they can't see the effort spent in research - especially when often for non-conusmer sites the research can prove to be fruitless.)

Finally, you can also get involved in SEM (search engine marketing) and these days it's pretty much a requirement if you need targeted traffic immediately. This requires an entirely different set of skills to manage ad campaigns - good writing, good math to stay within the client's budget and good analytical skills to determine the best outcome for the client.

My company does all of the above, but we sometimes collaborate with a web designer if the client has a web designer that he prefers instead of doing all of the design work ourselves. Often, however, we do everything from soup to nuts.

[Duncan Pollock]

One of the truisms about SEO that's widely recognized and accepted is that Content is King -- and this moves you into the marketing side of the equation.
SEO, without question, will enhance a website and enable the search engines to recognize its existence and lead to its appearance. It's no simple task and involves a host of factors and their inter-relationship and importance. A website that's just thrown together isn't likely to go very far, save only when someone who knows the URL types it into the search box. Otherwise, you need to know and understand the need for a relevant description, well chosen page titles, as many backlinks as you can obtain, and a reasonably extensive experience in using html and other aspects that will move the site up in the SERPs. (And, of course, you need to know what words such as URL, html, and SERP mean, not to mention other similar concerns that an SEO specialist deals with.)
But the content needs to connect with site visitors. It has to explain in unmistakable terms what's called the site owner's Unique Selling Proposition. It needs to reflect an awareness of the WIIFM (what's in it for me) that will convince the visitor that this is the company/product/service/information/whatever that he/she is looking for. It should anticipate -- and provide answers to -- all the questions the visitor has. It should say what needs to be said and, more than anything else, say it either in a way that no-on else says so well or, in fact, in terms and appeal that no one else uses. It has to help the site owner stand out in a crowd (that's often hundreds and thousands of competing sites). And this, also without question, calls for marketing knowledge and experience.
As my colleage Peter says, the key lies in a merging of SEO and marketing know-how and isn't as commonly available as many people (including a fair number of self professed SEO wizards) may think -- and never mind the ability to create an appropriate design (which should also have some uniqueness to it).
All told, you're looking at a combination of skill sets that all involve a reasonably lengthy learning curve.
The possibilities are decidedly great, but the problems along the way are no less numerous.

Duncan

[Zombie Master]

[quote=mawells;375327] An SEO cannot do an effective job coming in after the fact and trying to make an "invisible" site visible (I mean invisible to search engines not site visitors).

Not to be contentious but I believe many times the best SEO work can be done after the fact. We took over the website for a smaller New England furniture maker last September that had virtually no SERPO's with Google.... nada.... none except for their name.

Today they're #1 ranked for "safe childrens' beds." You can spell childrens any way you want.

[Big Juice]

SEO isn't a profession in and of itself simply because it will not stand the test of time. What will become of SEO when search itself changes, what would it be applied to when the Internet as we now know it is no more?

SEO techniques work on search engines because the search engines rely upon mechanical search but the day will be coming when search engines will rely upon a kind of artificial intelligence to deliver results. Get rid of mechanical search you get rid of SEO or turn it into something completely different.

There is a lot of talk about LSI or Latent Semantic Indexing. Some people believe that LSI is nothing more than the latest buzz word to lure unsuspecting clients into expensive contracts for services that they don't understand. This complaint is often applied to SEO in general as well however, not understanding something doesn't make it any less real does it? To illustrate my point; my failure to understand women doesn't make them any less real does it?

SEO is not a profession but just a department within webdev/marketing and will not be around long enough to be considered a profession.

[Zombie Master]

[quote=Big Juice;375332] This complaint is often applied to SEO in general as well however, not understanding something doesn't make it any less real does it? To illustrate my point; my failure to understand women doesn't make them any less real does it?

There's an old Irish saying, "Don't bruise your knee on a barstool not in your way."

You have a good point, Juice, but I think you are proving the argument that SEO is here to stay. The good ones I've seen are constantly changing with the flow of the internet. You can swim just as well with your eyes open as you can with them shut.

[Big Juice]

Zombie

I have been in the game for well over a decade and have worked exclusively within the most competitive industries and I have seen many trends come and go. The one thing they all shared in common is how they were applied to the flaws within mechanical search.

Sometime in the not too distant future AI will replace mechanical search and SEO as we know it will no longer work. The evolution of search will ultimately kill SEO as a viable vocation.

Sorry to all you SEO people out there but the reality is - SEO will soon end.

[jawn_tech]

MJW - Welcome to WPW and it's really cool how you've been able to learn and get 'hooked' on SEO from this forum. It is a huge industry.

To gain a lot more insight to the industry, you can also watch a lot of the videos on WebProNews, which is one of WPW's SEO news outlets (part of the vast iEntry, Inc). A lot of those videos has interviews / coverage on the Search Engine Strategies (SES) workshops, conventions, happening all over the world. If you can make it to one of those, I'm sure you'd find it insightful, not only in equipping you with developments in SEO, but also in enlightening you more about the profession. I personally haven't attended one yet, but grab the highlights and interviews when I can.

You're on the right track though.

I also agree with one of your points, I do think that all designers should be SEO-minded. Better SEO starts with better sites designed with SEO in mind.

[babychicken4u2]

To me it seems that SEO is a profession that exists because of things web designers & marketing folk neglect,
and a lack of communication between the two. In my mind SEO could/should be a secondary skill of a professional web designer,
a skill that a marketing department would make use of. Thus removing SEO as a single profession in larger type companies, if you catch my drift?

In my experience which is not seasoned...yet. The above statement is a BAD mixture.

A good designer brings un-scorned creativity to the project, while an SEO seeks to make that excellent eye candy perform.

The problem is this, and I even find myself in this rut when I design, a designer who strives to be an SEO cannot deliver the stellar designs of one not stained by the performance effects of the design.

A great designer will build a site around the theme and the total user experience without prejudice, then an SEO will find a happy medium to bring the expected performance to the project.

Just my opinion....

~Melanie

[james113]

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread and is exactly why I frequent this forum. I myself have been working with SEO for about 5 years. I don't call myself an expert,
but experience has taught me that people that claim to be professional website designers, that don't know anything about SEO or usability, are causing many small to medium sized business' some major heartache and more often than not, alot of money. These people should stick to designing family tree websites or something other than business sites as a rule! My latest client has paid me alot of money to redesign their current ($1300)website for SEO and usability. The money they spent on the original design was wasted as the site now looks totally different with the exception of a few graphics I was able to incorporate into the new design. Not to mention the thousands they spent on ppc advertising for six months with literally no ROI.

In my opinion SEO cannot be a profession. It is similar to a scripting language such as HTML, CSS, FLASH, JAVASCRIPT etc... It must be learned and unfortunately among website designers, it is not always a learned skill, just as not all website designers(me included) know Flash. In a larger corporate type situation, I have to agree with what Peter said
Quote "It would be best to have this person not work in any of the departments but to have her/him report straight to higher management. That will take out the competition factor so people are more willing to agree. "

Even in this situation I would still have to say that SEO is not a profession, just a learned skill, that happens to be the main skill used in this job role. I would label this profession as an SEO consultant.

Just my $.O2

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by james113

.... but experience has taught me that people that claim to be professional website designers, that don't know anything about SEO or usability, are causing many small to medium sized business' some major heartache and more often than not, alot of money. These people should stick to designing family tree websites or something other than business sites as a rule ...

As much as I agree with that many (not all) web designers do not understand SEO, I can not agree with blaming them for the "heartache" and lost money. Business is business and the companies are responsible them selves for where they spend their money. When spending a lot of money in the wrong place you've got nobody else to blame but your self,... in the very same way that when you spend it in the right place and are very successful, you´re not going to blame anybody else but your self for your success.

[seoprodigy]

Remember what SEO stands for "Search Engine Optimization". While many of you are going duh! SEO is a process of filling in the gap of the search engine limitations. If Google had a search engine algorithm with judgment as sophisticated as a real human mind (they aren't too far away) then websites would be ranked and indexed to their true usefulness, not whether or not there were title tags, keyword tags, content, etc.

We are a bridge to the imperfections in search and the end user.

[james113]

Thank you for clarifying that Peter, I didn't mean to imply that all web designers do not understand SEO. I am a website designer myself and I designed my share of websites without knowing anything about SEO, but I was not producing websites for business'. I'm not blaming any SEO challenged website designer for causing any heartache. I am just saying that website designers that take on jobs for business', without making it known to the business owner, what SEO is, and that SEO, is not included with the design they are paying for, these designers are bordering on fraud in my opinion. All business' want to be listed somewhere(even if it is only for their company name), on the first page of the search engines. Selling a website with no SEO included, to a business without making them aware of it before hand is like selling a knife to someone going to a fight without telling them before hand that they are going to a gun fight.

[nelsonez]

Originally Posted by seoprodigy

We are a bridge to the imperfections in search and the end user.

This is a very good quote. This would also apply to any future form of SEO even if it was based on AI. The technology around SEO may change but the need for SEO specialists will not. One other comment would be that many people seem to forget that technically SEO is part advertising and not really marketing which is a specialty for retaining customers that already know you. Search engines generate NEW business which is really form of advertising.

[reebene]

People approach me with no clue about anything, thinking all they have to do is put a web site up there and people will find them. The truth comes as a bit of a shock. We all know SEO is the time consuming part of web sites.
I only work with small businesses and independant hotels and I do everything, from researching their client type to design and build of the website and SEO. So I think it's all part of the web proffession.
From reading all these reply it seems the bigger the company, the more remote the SEO is from the web design, that can't be a productive way for a company to function. What happened to teamwork?
My bottom line is if you can't do a bit of everything you understand nothing.

Big Juice - I look forward to the day when SEO no longer concerns us and we can just build good sites!

[astro]

Originally Posted by seoprodigy

Remember what SEO stands for "Search Engine Optimization". While many of you are going duh! SEO is a process of filling in the gap of the search engine limitations. If Google had a search engine algorithm with judgment as sophisticated as a real human mind (they aren't too far away) then websites would be ranked and indexed to their true usefulness, not whether or not there were title tags, keyword tags, content, etc.

We are a bridge to the imperfections in search and the end user.

I too like this definition, I will go further, I love it. It is short and to the point, I've read a lot of justifications for existence here, but not what was requested. I.E a definition of where to place the SEO profession.

I believe SEO is a science, but not an exact one. Which makes The SEO professionals "scientists" without portfolio or any single formula for success. The science of SEO and it's application is a combination of hard won experience, trial and error, flying by the seat of your pants, good communication and basic common sense to simplify a complicated concept so all can find, access and understand the website's message or purpose.

Astro

[emanuelh]

SEO is not a technical profession. A technical profession, for instance electronics or automotive service, possesses a body of knowledge incorporated in textbooks, professional publications, rules of thumb, tips openly circulated, tested and adopted or rejected and the results of still unpublished research and development. In this sense website development is very much a technical profession. But SEO, which grew out of it, is something utterly different. And since SEO is commonly practiced as if it is a technical profession the outcome is so often frustrating, perplexing and, as seen from some critical distance, even ridiculous.

The body of knowledge of SEO is in its largest part secret. It is not kept secret from the uninitiated, like ancient alchemy, but kept secret from its practitioners. Have you ever heard of any profession like this?

After all, any search engine, Google for instance, can be useful only by providing lists of the most relevant results with spammy ones sieved out. So the details of its ranking algorithm are kept secret - the various parameters and the shifting weight of each, new parameters recently added and old ones dropped without notice. And not only the algorithm is secret, so are the relevance scores of each listing in its SERPs. SEO workers can only watch the rankings, a reflection of the descending order of relevance scores that contain no information on the size of the relevance score gap between two adjacent listings. Suppose my page is at # 11 and following the implementation of a tip it jumps to # 9, pushing down the pages formerly at # 9 and # 10. With no information on the actual relevance scores I cannot know whether this was a success. Perhaps the tip was harmful and all three of us implementing it lost some relevance score, but the other two SEOs were much more industrious than me! And the success is sure to be short-lived because unknowingly I come too close to the score of page # 12, I am tempted to view that tip as a great idea and work on it longer than my two other competitors.

SEO is also not a technical profession that has to cope with some degree of uncertainty, like meteorology for instance. It has to cope with the fact that practically almost all data one needs for everyday practice is very effectively blocked behind a wall. SEO belongs in fact to the very small category of professions characterized by decision-making in conditions of minimal information. And it is about making decisions because if you do nothing you can be sure that others will get on top of you and you’ll be further away from your goal.

The practical solution of most SEO workers I meet as colleagues, candidates for employment and mostly as members of the Israeli forum in which I write daily is to fantasize that SEO is a technical profession. (And not only technical but highly-technical.) They fantasize that reflecting for a few minutes on some issue they can emulate the decision-making process of Google’s team, who have been working on that issue for months and years, and thus understand some features of the algorithm. Or they fantasize that by working successfully for some time in arenas characterized by minimal competition future will bring no surprises. Or that there are gurus who know more.

But the most common fantasy is the belief that “an experienced SEO worker” can take a look at web page A, ranked # 10, for a competitive search query in Google, and at web page B, ranked # 11, and tell why A is # 10 and B is # 11 and not the other way around. This fantasy is derived from the fact that if one looks at page C at # 200 and compares it with page A at # 10 the differences are very often quite obvious - fewer links, sloppy metatags, short text, few pages in site. And, based on this comparison, it seems easy to estimate, if not really calculate, the amount of work required to surpass page A. But the problem is that here one looks at the open to all (or perhaps processed a little bit) available data and when one compares pages A and B the data is very often confusing - the upper page has fewer links, poor metatags and text and so on.

How can that be? Obviously the upper page has a higher relevance score despite these apparent shortcomings. There must be a hidden factor that provides the missing relevance score - the quality value of the links versus the smaller sheer number, a TR link we cannot identify, in fact anything within the hidden 95% or so of the data Google works hard to prevent us from getting. This is the reason why the price quote to bring page B to # 10 for a competitive search query is pure fiction, while the price quote for bringing page C from # 200 to # 10, which looked like a simple calculation, will reach the same data block when page C reaches # 11 for instance.

[khurramali]

SEM (Search Engine Marketing) is the the main Umbrella which is the the broad term used in this field.

then SEO is the specialization which is only concerned with getting top organic rankings.

[Peter (IMC)]

In that same line, emanuelh, you can say that SEO is also not a marketing job, and also not a web designer job. The reality however, is that you need at least a little bit of knowledge in all these fields. Mostly you need to be a marketer (which is not the same thing as a marketing job) with some programming knowledge (the more the better) and you need to at least understand what design factors are important (but if you´re too good at design, you're likely to be a bad SEO because your priorities will be wrong.)

One thing that I strongly believe, is that it is not necessary to understand how a search engine works. So the secrets of the search engines are not what's important. There is no relation between how much you know about the algorithms and how good an SEO you are. Ask any Google engineer that knows the algorithms to build a site and get it to rank high for what ever keyword you want and he will get less results than an experienced SEO.

Just knowing how a piano works doesn't make you the best piano player in the world.

SEO is also not a technical profession that has to cope with some degree of uncertainty, like meteorology for instance. It has to cope with the fact that practically almost all data one needs for everyday practice is very effectively blocked behind a wall.

Just like a meteorologist can only observe, an SEO also observes the SERPs. Based on those observations, knowledge-sharing, and trying out stuff, an SEO can become very good at optimizing a website. He has access to a lot more data than you think. It does require a technical mind set to be able to do something useful with all that data. And that's why SEO is considered a technical job. But I agree that it is a lot more than just a technical thing.

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Just like a meteorologist can only observe, an SEO also observes the SERPs. Based on those observations, knowledge-sharing, and trying out stuff, an SEO can become very good at optimizing a website. He has access to a lot more data than you think. It does require a technical mind set to be able to do something useful with all that data. And that's why SEO is considered a technical job. But I agree that it is a lot more than just a technical thing.

As I have shown above you have no way of knowing whether your rise in rankings was caused by your own actions or by the actions of the SEO workers servicing web pages that were formerly above yours. Indeed, my definitive interview question to test the SEO logic of a candidate runs as follows: "I rank # 11 at Google for a given search query. I, and the SEO workers servicing the web pages ranking # 9 and # 10, implement a new SEO technique. After a while my page is # 9, the page that ranked at # 9 fell to # 10 and the page ranked at # 10 fell to # 11. Despite that, the situation of all of us has worsened. Explain."

Think of it before you decree that you have access to more than a few percent of the data you need and that SEO is a technical profession.

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by khurramali

SEM (Search Engine Marketing) is the the main Umbrella which is the the broad term used in this field. Then SEO is the specialization which is only concerned with getting top organic rankings.

I fully agree and advise all of us to adopt this definition.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by emanuelh

As I have shown above you have no way of knowing whether your rise in rankings was caused by your own actions or by the actions of the SEO workers servicing web pages that were formerly above yours. Indeed, my definitive interview question to test the SEO logic of a candidate runs as follows: "I rank # 11 at Google for a given search query. I, and the SEO workers servicing the web pages ranking # 9 and # 10, implement a new SEO technique. After a while my page is # 9, the page that ranked at # 9 fell to # 10 and the page ranked at # 10 fell to # 11. Despite that, the situation of all of us has worsened. Explain."

Think of it before you decree that you have access to more than a few percent of the data you need and that SEO is a technical profession.

As an SEO I couldn't care less wether a site is in position 9, 10 or 11 for a specific keyword. SEO is not about getting a site 1 or 2 positions up for a specific keyword. It's about getting a site more visitors through the search engines.

What I do know when working a website is that the number of visitors to a site goes up a lot (200, 300, 400% or even more, depending on the website) and that the number of keywords the site is found for goes up in much higher percentages. It is 100% clear that that is the result of the SEO work applied.

The meteorologist also doesn't care wether it rained for 1 hour and 23 minutes or 1 hour and 24 minutes. His predictions and goals aren't on that level, as they shouldn't be.

SEO is not a technical profession, it is a mixture of a couple of different things. I didn't say it is a technical profession... What I did say was that it requires people with a technical mind set to be good at SEO. If you prefer, in stead of technical mind set, use the words: Logical mind set. Doesn't mean you have to be a technical person in order to be good SEO. It's more about the way you think than about what you are.

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

As an SEO I couldn't care less wether a site is in position 9, 10 or 11 for a specific keyword. SEO is not about getting a site 1 or 2 positions up for a specific keyword. It's about getting a site more visitors through the search engines.
What I do know when working a website is that the number of visitors to a site goes up a lot (200, 300, 400% or even more, depending on the website) and that the number of keywords the site is found for goes up in much higher percentages. It is 100% clear that that is the result of the SEO work applied.

Come on Peter, you can't be serious. The number of visitors (and keywords) can also go down a lot, as a result of the more intensive work of your competitors, not the mention the occasional use of harmful techniques which take some time to show in the results.

And if you got 400% more visitors from Google but your page is still # 11 you won't say that your work is complete, would you?

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

SEO is not a technical profession, it is a mixture of a couple of different things. I didn't say it is a technical profession... What I did say was that it requires people with a technical mind set to be good at SEO. If you prefer, in stead of technical mind set, use the words: Logical mind set. Doesn't mean you have to be a technical person in order to be good SEO. It's more about the way you think than about what you are.

True. I like to tell candidates that for SEO work one has to understand how machines think and also how people think. This combination is hard to find in one person.

[SEO]

In my opinion...

Website design and marketing are 2 separate aspects of an overall picture. These days, you cannot be successful online unless you incorporate a complete business plan. Website design and marketing just won't do it for you in a competitive niche these days. Companies are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into "Virtual Real Estate" and as the old real estate adage goes "position... position... position..." is where the money is. It is no longer purely a case of what you know, but who you know (and who knows you) also weighs heavily in the search engines.

An example of an effective b/p for a modern, competitive online business might include.

Web design
Programming
SEO = On page optimization
SEM = Off page optimization
Marketing
Building reputation

The internet is becoming more and more personal. Search engines are beginning to measure the amount of time each visitor spends on your website to determine whether your site is giving visitors what they are looking for. They are counting how many pages on your website each visitor looks at and clicks through. They are also looking at where a visitor goes from your site.

As a result of these things a good SEO must also take into account things such as stickability (if that is a word), interactivity and conversion.

SEO is just one more aspect that must be taken into account when building a successful online business. But it is not the 'be all and end all'...

[cpsprovider]

When Google recommends that not even they can ensure placement of sites, and that people should become "slickly" to engage the services of a professional SEO the name SEO is reduced to seo.


The aggravating is on that profissioanl SEO to sell the services to the client can not afford that service will be crowned with success, and gives consolation that everything that could be done was done to save the electronics business, an immediate advantage is offered by the professional SEO that the investment in SEO can stop bleeding money intended for investment in that segment of the media. Many customers understand this as a good cost benefit and hire our services, others have preferred not risk the capital. It is not difficult to imagine him who gives better choose between or not choose to invest in SEO services. This is aggravating to sell sevices SEO drove the vast majority of professional SEO to survive their knowledge of SEO, in applying some kind of digital business for its own benefit, thereby making propellants in the medium-term future of the legion of people around the world that survive exclusively on a Web site like the SEO today.


I think SEO because it is not an exact science, but an art, should be mirrored in other professions related to art. The basic concept of art that is never a work of art can exist with the same characteristic of another segment of the same artistic, and that not all painters become a Van Gogh in life, SEO is one of those that emerged Artists with the advent of the Internet and the need to share knowledge in order to work, each SEO dispute his place in the sun, like all other professions that exist. SEO as a profession as indefinite believe can win new labels as Guru SEO, SEO Expert, SEO Consultant among other denominations, the only apparent certainty is that the profession SEO (thus was born, so it should be) is far from ending because the Internet is here to stay.


Joe

[mtheory]

SEO is simply a by-product of a well designed and marketed site. In too many cases it is a fabrication by web designers to exploit the perception of search eninge importance(search constitutes onle 6% of all internet traffic). Usually taking away or limiting resoiurces that should have been put towards designand traditional marketing methods, both of which ironically are the two biggest pparts of SEO.

I'd be curious to here some opinions on the fact that General Motors doesn't show up within the first 5 pages of results(as far as I looked) at Google for the keyword "cars". You'd think a corporation with their resources would throw at least a couple million at seo if it was really that important.

Search for "soda" or "soft drinks". Coke and Pepsi where are you?

[astro]

I regret to disagree.......most answers here are very wordy and saying precious little.

Peter (IMC) is talking sense.

For example in my post I said

I believe SEO is a science, but not an exact one. Which makes The SEO professionals "scientists" without portfolio or any single formula for success. The science of SEO and it's application is a combination of hard won experience, trial and error, flying by the seat of your pants, good communication and basic common sense to simplify a complicated concept so all can find, access and understand the website's message or purpose.

However in response (which due to length I will not quote) Emanual basically said the same whilst disagreeing???? A rose by any other name????

There is little difference in basic essence between the high street in any local town and the www. The objective of SEO is to increase the footfall past your window. Personally I would rather own a web site ranked 1000 with 12,000 visitors a week, than one ranked 1st with 100

Business should never be an ego trip. I was a potential SEO client, but decided instead my learning curve needed to get a bit steeper.

When I see a beautiful forest or mountain I wonder at and enjoy the view. I have no desire to question the make up or percentage ratios of Oaks to Conifirs or think what the rocks are made from....or when!

Sometimes when it comes to SEO I feel like the little girl who was sent horse manure for her birthday. She was so happy as she just knew there was a pony in there somewhere!

This is an interesting topic, how to define and execute an inexact skill with hidden rules!

smiles
Astro

[SEO]

Originally Posted by astro

There is little difference in basic essence between the high street in any local town and the www. The objective of SEO is to increase the footfall past your window. Personally I would rather own a web site ranked 1000 with 12,000 visitors a week, than one ranked 1st with 100.

The difference between high street in any local town and the www IS Rankings... If you rank 1000, then you are not 'High Street', You are on a little backwater dirt road, and you will need to pay for advertising to attract footfall past your window.

Owning a web site ranked 1000 with 12,000 visitors a week has nothing to do with SEO. You will Never... Never... get 12,000 visitors a week with a web site ranked 1,000 in the SERP's using organic search results. The only way you could possibly do that is with PPC marketing (which in my opinion has nothing to do with SEO).

[astro]

Originally Posted by SEO

The difference between high street in any local town and the www IS Rankings... If you rank 1000, then you are not 'High Street', You are on a little backwater dirt road, and you will need to pay for advertising to attract footfall past your window.

Owning a web site ranked 1000 with 12,000 visitors a week has nothing to do with SEO. You will Never... Never... get 12,000 visitors a week with a web site ranked 1,000 in the SERP's using organic search results. The only way you could possibly do that is with PPC marketing (which in my opinion has nothing to do with SEO).

Once again, the concept and overall message of a post is lost by a literal translation. This is not a debate of semantics but a classification and clarification of an occupation. Are we to bandy words by picking out individual sentences to convert to our point of view or, as I hoped an attempt to read a meaning from the whole post? Where is your imagination and overall understanding of a message?

I used extremes to make a point. A parable if you prefer! To take any part of a whole post and focus on this alone this as a literal statement is pedantic in nature.

I can only assume I explained myself badly, mia culpa!

Oh, just for the record on a personal level, I would rather eat glass than pay per click, use adsense and/or sponsored links! Waste of time and money. Banner blindness still applies and spreads.

Lets bring back smack the monkey, a great banner...............err.............. in it's day!

smiles
Astro

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by cpsprovider

When Google recommends that not even they can ensure placement of sites, and that people should become "slickly" to engage the services of a professional SEO the name SEO is reduced to seo.

That's what Google say. But I can bring a site to # 1 in Google for any search query. Guaranteed.

Originally Posted by cpsprovider

I think SEO because it is not an exact science, but an art, should be mirrored in other professions related to art.

The basic concept of art is that a work of art has no other function except its esthetic function.

[SEO]

Originally Posted by mtheory

I'd be curious to here some opinions on the fact that General Motors doesn't show up within the first 5 pages of results(as far as I looked) at Google for the keyword "cars". You'd think a corporation with their resources would throw at least a couple million at seo if it was really that important.

Search for "soda" or "soft drinks". Coke and Pepsi where are you?

If I am looking for a General Motors car, I am not going to type in 'cars'... that would be a waste of my time. General Motors sell 'new' cars and/or trucks, somebody typing "cars" into Google isn't in the market to buy a brand new car.

All of the companies you are referring to GM, Coke, Pepsi, have all spent millions of dollars on "Branding" their trademark. Why would they want to rank for a generic term such as cars, soda, etc...? They are smarter than that. To throw "a couple million" at such generic terms would not really complement the "Multi Millions" they have spent on "Branding".

One aspect of SEO is to figure out which keyword targeting is going to bring the greatest return on investment. One way to work out ROI for SEO is to work out ROI on PPC. If GM targets cars via PPC do you really think the ROI will be anywhere near the ROI on "General Motors"?

Google "General Motors" or "Coke" or "Pepsi" and tell me how many competitive PPC ads there are....?

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by emanuelh

That's what Google say. But I can bring a site to # 1 in Google for any search query. Guaranteed.

this is interesting. am assuming you mean ppc? otherwise i would quite like to see you do it with "coke"

[AVC]

Since Google sends up to 90% of search engine traffic to many sites, SEO is evolving into compliance with Google webmaster guidelines now days and eliminating dirty tricks that many webmasters have been using for years.

True SEO will be engineering a clients website to be Google friendly so it can rank long term without incurring penalties and bans leading to de-indexing.

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by kevsta

this is interesting. am assuming you mean ppc? otherwise i would quite like to see you do it with "coke"

No. I mean # 1 in the organic results for any search query.

The page that ranks # 1 for coke (the homepage of Coca-Cola's official site at this moment) has the highest relevance score, as measured by Google's ranking algorithm, for this particular search query in comparison with any other page indexed by Google.

I (and my team, and extra staff if needed) only have to increase the relevance score of any other suitable web page (that has not been punished, for instance) to close the relevance score gap between the two pages and become # 1. We don't have to break into Coca-Cola's headquarters, or into Google's.

I am surprised again and again why SEO workers prefer to quote Google's logically false statement.

[emanuelh]

Originally Posted by SEO

...One aspect of SEO is to figure out which keyword targeting is going to bring the greatest return on investment. One way to work out ROI for SEO is to work out ROI on PPC. If GM targets cars via PPC do you really think the ROI will be anywhere near the ROI on "General Motors"?...

Please explain.

[simonm]

Wow, loads of posts, though not unsurprising!
I prefer to call my skill "Web Management" which encompasses SEO. Web Management also includes many other web related skills, many of which such as html and ASP programming, DNS admin, analytics, report writing, design of web layout such that it engages with the visitor etc.. skills I presume to have. Certainly my longstanding clients seem to agree!

Web design, tricky one that. I am not a web designer and emphasise that to my clients, basically because I am not amongst the best and my clients (like all our clients) deserve the best. The risk is they then get some mediocre so called designer who can barely break free from Dreamweaver Sample layouts! But happens to be a friend of the MD!

Here's a question? Who should be in charge - ie have the last say , the web designer or the SEO?

[astro]

Originally Posted by simonm

Here's a question? Who should be in charge - ie have the last say , the web designer or the SEO?

Neither!

The guy paying for/owning the web site needs the drivers seat.......Everytime. The rest are employees/consultants! Otherwise you have anarchy! You never allow the tail to wag the dog!!!!

To clarify this before egos get busted let me explain.

The owner of a web site needs to set the employees/consultants the tasks and explain his expectations. The employees need to live up to those tasks and expectations, this makes for a happy business/work relationship. However the employer needs to trust his workers to deliver or his judgement comes under question........(or he gets other workers).......... The best/most successful companies are the the ones who pay excellent money for the best employees.

Simple.......It is the way of things! You can work hard or work smart.

Hint.....This is why I live on a little Greek island playing at things and pottering about whilst you guys slave over a hot 'puter.
Been there, Done that....got the scars to prove it.

[/Astro]

[tamecrow]

I agree with the OP's outlook on SEO. I see it as an extension/correction of web design with marketing intent. We actively improve the quality and accessibility of websites, with the goal of having the site fully crawlable and accessible to users, improving search positions and sales.

[mtheory]

Originally Posted by astro

Neither!

The guy paying for/owning the web site needs the drivers seat.......Everytime. The rest are employees/consultants! Otherwise you have anarchy! You never allow the tail to wag the dog!!!!

To clarify this before egos get busted let me explain.

The owner of a web site needs to set the employees/consultants the tasks and explain his expectations. The employees need to live up to those tasks and expectations, this makes for a happy business/work relationship. However the employer needs to trust his workers to deliver or his judgement comes under question........(or he gets other workers).......... The best/most successful companies are the the ones who pay excellent money for the best employees.

Simple.......It is the way of things! You can work hard or work smart.

Hint.....This is why I live on a little Greek island playing at things and pottering about whilst you guys slave over a hot 'puter.
Been there, Done that....got the scars to prove it.

[/Astro]

True the employer has the final say but as a contractor you hope the employer has the sensibility to let them do the job right.

[simonm]

Originally Posted by astro

Neither!

The guy paying for/owning the web site needs the drivers seat.......Everytime. The rest are employees/consultants! Otherwise you have anarchy! You never allow the tail to wag the dog!!!!

Careful - in that direction lays the vanity website!

Hope the weather out in those Greek Islands is as good as it is here in currently sun drenched Kent! Tried working out in the garden but the sun was just too bright!

[Feydakin]

As long as the guy writing the checks is simply presenting goals and leaving the details up to those actually charged with reaching those goals I would agree with you.. But if the guy writing the checks is also meddling in areas that he isn't competent to be messing with then it's time to explain the issues politely.. Or walk away.. Meddling check writers tend to screw things up..

[astro]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

As long as the guy writing the checks is simply presenting goals and leaving the details up to those actually charged with reaching those goals I would agree with you.. But if the guy writing the checks is also meddling in areas that he isn't competent to be messing with then it's time to explain the issues politely.. Or walk away.. Meddling check writers tend to screw things up..

I agree totally. There is no point employing skilled people to dictate to them how to do their job. Why employ them in the first place? Thats what they are there for. A few years back I really enjoyed coming up with internet based ideas then handing them over with the business outline, targets and budgets and saying to the individuals concerned "This is possible, so go make it work!"

However the question was who was in charge. It is always the guy paying the bills. Incidently the person who should have no say whatsoever in website design and content is the graphics guy! He should be nailed/chained to his computer with clear easy to follow instructions of what is required.........with it's dimensions and size pixel wise!

I still say SEO is an inexact science, but in addition to that it is the inexact science of multiple variations within a theme.

What I have learned from this thread is how touchy and defensive you guy/girls are about your chosen profession!

Astro

[mtheory]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

As long as the guy writing the checks is simply presenting goals and leaving the details up to those actually charged with reaching those goals I would agree with you.. But if the guy writing the checks is also meddling in areas that he isn't competent to be messing with then it's time to explain the issues politely.. Or walk away.. Meddling check writers tend to screw things up..

As a web esigner you need to clarify with a client whether they are hiring you to master their domain or stroke them. If it's the latter I recommend running for the hills. That arrangement usually ends messy.