SEO Trust Rank v/s SEO Page Rank

[davidweb]

Most of you will agree with me that Page Rank has no impact on rankings of any website.

We have personally observed websites having <0 Page Rank ( launched 3 months back), are beating websites having Page Rank 4-5 with several hundred back links.

This clearly shows that Google uses a Trust Rank Algorithm which remain hidden in the background. There are several thousand threads discussing increase/decrease in Page Rank, but there are hardly any threads which discuss issues revolving around Trust Rank.

Therefore I would like to discuss various parameters which can help you increase your Trust Rank.

Some of the factors which i have observed are as given below :-

a) Informative and Unique Content.
b) Quality of back links rather than bulk of back links
c) Natural keyword density
d) Optimization history of any domain ( ie how optimization evolved on any website)

Please feel free to contribute your thoughts on how to increase Trust Rank.

[zeruel]

I agree with you on this. Quality is more important than quantity. Content is also a big thing when it is optimized well...

[ctabuk]

Davidweb, you are still confusing the Toolbar pagerank to that of the Internal pagerank found via google analytics. That Internal pagerank is in my books what trustrank is based on. Not some secret system.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Davidweb, you are still confusing the Toolbar pagerank to that of the Internal pagerank found via google analytics. That Internal pagerank is in my books what trustrank is based on. Not some secret system.

"Internal", but not "external" trust? How many and who uses Google analytics?

"To my knowledge, Google was the first Se company that inverted the link matrix of the web. That is IMO still the heart of their model, but that model is adjusted (complemented) by advanced spam filters etc. I think it is extremely difficult to beat what I will call the adaptive inverted link matrix model. (Scroll down to my first post).

Toolbar PageRank is a delayed correlated metric of the true internal pagerank and the only measure you can observe. Temperature in a geopoint is the output of a complex high dimensional system, but easy to measure. Toolbar pagerank is like the average temperature of the seasons. It is a function of IBL's, the adaptive inverted link matrix of the web".

Source: What use is Google page rank?

I should say: the only measure you as a surfer can observe.

[kgun]

There is an other measure,

Google Directory - Computers*>*Artificial*Intelligence

that I will call directory PageRank, and the links above can be viewed in:

• Alphabetical
• PageRank (default)

order, but that may be more important for people browsing that directory than for the general web surfer.

[inertia]

Originally Posted by davidweb

a) Informative and Unique Content.
b) Quality of back links rather than bulk of back links
c) Natural keyword density
d) Optimization history of any domain ( ie how optimization evolved on any website)

I would say that the age and history of the domain plays a big part in trust. I've come across ancient front page sites which are still clinging to the top SERPs, much to the desperation of the client. When i asses the site the only conclusion i can logically come up with is that the domain has the benefits of a clean, lengthy past.

This can make it difficult for SEOs to work on a domain that has been live for many years - we dont always know whats happened in that time. Does anyone have any advice with regards to this?

[inertia]

One other note! I think linking out to trusted sites such as .gov and .edu can make you look trust worthy.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by inertia

I would say that the age and history of the domain plays a big part in trust. I've come across ancient front page sites which are still clinging to the top SERPs, much to the desperation of the client. When i asses the site the only conclusion i can logically come up with is that the domain has the benefits of a clean, lengthy past.

This can make it difficult for SEOs to work on a domain that has been live for many years - we dont always know whats happened in that time. Does anyone have any advice with regards to this?

My intuition:

1. Hypertext Style: Cool URIs don't change.
2. Be careful when you change content on a page.

[inertia]

Originally Posted by kgun

My intuition:

1. Hypertext Style: Cool URIs don't change.
2. Be careful when you change content on a page.

I completely agree that its always better to build rather than to change.

Do you think that 301s can be 100% effective in solving this problem?

[kgun]

I don't know, since I have never used redirections. I try to plan ahead so I don't need them. For a link collector like me redirections are sometimes bad, since the redirection may end up on a site with different content. That is why automatic link checking tools Find broken links on your site with Xenu's Link Sleuth (TM) is only a first step in the continual quality control of your links. I am alone, so mine are not good enough.

I love perma links like those we now have at WPW:

Example: kbleivik's bookmarks on del.icio.us

If these links change, It will be bad for me.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by davidweb

Most of you will agree with me that Page Rank has no impact on rankings of any website.

We have personally observed websites having <0 Page Rank ( launched 3 months back), are beating websites having Page Rank 4-5 with several hundred back links.

This clearly shows that Google uses a Trust Rank Algorithm which remain hidden in the background. There are several thousand threads discussing increase/decrease in Page Rank, but there are hardly any threads which discuss issues revolving around Trust Rank.

Therefore I would like to discuss various parameters which can help you increase your Trust Rank.

Some of the factors which i have observed are as given below :-

a) Informative and Unique Content.
b) Quality of back links rather than bulk of back links
c) Natural keyword density
d) Optimization history of any domain ( ie how optimization evolved on any website)

Please feel free to contribute your thoughts on how to increase Trust Rank.

Trustrank, I don't know if it exists. Lower PR pages outranking higher PR pages doesn't say anything about trust. The logic behind it is simple: For keyword A you can find Website X with a PR2 outranking Website Y that has a PR4. Sure that happens and would proof you right. But you can also find that for Keyword B Website Y is outranking Website X, which would proof you wrong. So it's not like Website X ranks higher for Keyword A because of some trust factor. If that would be the case Website X would always outrank Website Y.

The lower PR pages outranking higher PR pages has to be explained differently. Since you can observe both lower PR pages outranking higher PR pages and visa versa, you have to look for another factor that is determining some kind of difference. In the above example, all but 1 factors are the same. That one factor that is different is the keyword.

Toolbar PR is an indication of the total amount of PR that a page has. Other factors are at play too of course. For example, keywords in the anchor text of backlinks. It is more likely that Google looks at the links that have the keyword in anchor text of backlinks and recalculates PR for that specific keyword. In that case for Keyword A, Website X can have a PR 2 while Website Y has a PR1. Now it makes more sense from a PR point of view that Website X outranks Website Y, without breaking Google's PR logic and it also means that PR still is at the heart of Google's search algorithms (which is what they claim in the first place.)


In my opinion, Trustrank in a similar way as Pagerank, does not exist. I don't see them calculating some kind of number that says: The trustrank for this page is 5.

Pagerank it self is a very good way to determine how trustworthy a page is. However it can be fooled (link building the wrong way for example), which is why they have to build in algorithms that reduce the effect of fooling PR. They do this by looking at anchor texts in backlinks, various age factors, some factors that I consider SEO secrets, etc. Applying all these things means you end up with not seeing any relation between positions and toolbar PR.


If you take the word optimization out of point D, I'd agree with it.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Trustrank, I don't know if it exists. Lower PR pages outranking higher PR pages doesn't say anything about trust. The logic behind it is simple: For keyword A you can find Website X with a PR2 outranking Website Y that has a PR4. Sure that happens and would proof you right. But you can also find that for Keyword B Website Y is outranking Website X, which would proof you wrong. So it's not like Website X ranks higher for Keyword A because of some trust factor. If that would be the case Website X would always outrank Website Y.

This is comparable to statistical fractals. There is a mix of determinism and probability.

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Pagerank it self is a very good way to determine how trustworthy a page is. However it can be fooled (link building the wrong way for example), which is why they have to build in algorithms that reduce the effect of fooling PR. They do this by looking at anchor texts in backlinks, various age factors, some factors that I consider SEO secrets, etc. Applying all these things means you end up with not seeing any relation between positions and toolbar PR.

If you take the word optimization out of point D, I'd agree with it.

My bolding. I partly agree.

And not seeing any relation is far from the same that there is no relation. But PageRank is a delayed derived measure from IBL's where anchor text (semantic linking) is important.

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by inertia

One other note! I think linking out to trusted sites such as .gov and .edu can make you look trust worthy.

Google guys would not like your comment because you are hitting BULL'S EYE there

This Trust rank topic is bit compliated and must be addressed. Everybody knows for sure that Yahoo uses a Trust Rank technique to grant rankings. Similarly Google might have started to rely on Trust Rank ( or something similar) information rather than information provided by backlinks/page rank etc etc.

There are certain buddies on this forum who might disagree with me on this trust rank, but seriously something is wrong with Page Rank.

Page Rank is not the tool to gauge strength of any website. If you see page rank 0 website outshining page rank 5 website, it doesnt mean that PR0 site is using any sneaky SEO techniques. If Google or Yahoo launches a FREE web directory, I am sure it will remain PR0 for atleast 3-4 months. However this does not imply that they are worthless. If you closely observe their real strength you would not think for a second before submitting your website there for FREEE !!! ( I can only wish .

In the past 6-12 months, I am concentrating towards increasing Trust Rank of several websites which I optimize. Most of these websites have less back links and less PR , but they are outshining every single website for competitive keywords within their business niche.

I do feel sometimes that Google and other search engines cannot rely on information provided by the back links for long. There are several thousand PAID directories, PAID Press Releases, Paid Article promotion, etc etc.

All these issues can seriously jeopardize the real concept of Search engines. Moreover if everyone starts optimizing then Google/Yahoo will end up loosing several thousand MILLIONS of DOLLARS which they earn through PPC/Adsense and other form of paid advertisings.

I would surely ask you to contribute your thoughts on factors which can help any website to increase its Trust rank on both Google and Yahoo.

[kgun]

Here are some related WPW threads:

"TrustRank" vs. "PageRank"

Did The Recent TrustRank Patent Grant Murder DMOZ?

inbounds and outbounds

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by kgun

Here are some related WPW threads:

Thanks for that info. However there has been a major shift in the theory of Trust Rank. Moreover, my sole purpose was to enlighten users about differences in Page Rank and Trust Rank.

There are several thousand forums discussing Page rank, but hardly anyone pays attention to Trust Rank.

Trust Rank is the future of SEO, and I am sure Google will try its best to secure this particular aspect of their search engine. They have been hiding several facts including back link information, and misguiding online users with their PAGE RANK theory.

In reality Page Rank has no relationship with actual rankings of any website, and yet there are several thousand discussions on how to increase your page rank.

We need to focus ourself on Trust Rank if we really want to understand search engines better.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by davidweb

Trust Rank is the future of SEO, and I am sure Google will try its best to secure this particular aspect of their search engine.

What you call it, Trust Rank or adjusted PageRank is not so important. I am quite convinced that the SE's algorithms, not least Google's, are getting better and better.

Originally Posted by davidweb

They have been hiding several facts including back link information, and misguiding online users with their PAGE RANK theory.

I think the misguide mainly comes from socalled SEO experts. How many have taken the time to understand Googles inverted link matrix model of the web? Hiding methods / algorithms is no more surprising than Coke hiding their forumla.

Originally Posted by davidweb

In reality Page Rank has no relationship with actual rankings of any website, and yet there are several thousand discussions on how to increase your page rank.

I partly agree with that, since you should focus on building content and semantic links.

Did you read my first post in this

Semantic Search Engines?

thread that I have pasted elswhere today?

<cite>
Mathematics as a method does not lie, but that does not imply that a site based on lies, will not hit the first position on the SERPS.
</cite>

The adaptive part of the algorithm, as I see it, use sampling and manual quality control testing of the top positions on the SERP for spam and relevance. Sampling can be a fairly accurate method if it is done scientifically.

Try to get the top position for:

• Financial stability.
• Value investment.
• Object oriented programming.
• Design patterns.

[Peter (IMC)]

I do feel sometimes that Google and other search engines cannot rely on information provided by the back links for long. There are several thousand PAID directories, PAID Press Releases, Paid Article promotion, etc etc.

NewsFlash - Google is reducing the influence of many of these PAID things by taking out their ability to pass PR. (that's actually going on for like a year already)

All these issues can seriously jeopardize the real concept of Search engines. Moreover if everyone starts optimizing then Google/Yahoo will end up loosing several thousand MILLIONS of DOLLARS which they earn through PPC/Adsense and other form of paid advertisings.

It does seem that way, doesn't it,.. But it's not correct. The number of spots in the first SERP is 10 + about 10 sponsored links. If everybody does SEO, that won't change. More likely they will make more money because if everybody is doing SEO, everybody will want to be in the top 10 and that will drive the Cost Per Click up.

[Peter (IMC)]

My bolding. I partly agree.

And not seeing any relation is far from the same that there is no relation.

Exactly,.

[davidweb]

I have observed a STEEP FALL in page rank of one of the high PR rank website. This is a well known website with quite an established customer base. It is related to Google Ranking/Analytic SOFTWARE, but I would never use forum postings to BAD MOUTH any website.

Their website was having a Page Rank higher than 6, but suddenly it has dropped to 0.However, I observed absolutely no change in rankings which is an indication that page rank is having little impact on rankings of any website.

If your SEO efforts are against the PAGE RANK algorithm rule, then you could see a drop in PAGE RANK. If your SEO efforts are against the TRUST RANK algorithm, you will observe drop in 1) RANKINGS and then 2) PAGE RANK.

Going against Trust Rank Algo rules can severly effect your rankings, and could push your website into PENALTY or SANDBOX like situation.

However if any site goes against Page Rank algorithm, it will not effect rankings, but it can surely suck your GREEN FLUID (PR) stored in Google Toolbar Tool.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by davidweb

We have personally observed websites having <0 Page Rank ( launched 3 months back), are beating websites having Page Rank 4-5 with several hundred back links.

I out rank Dell for the keyword "custom website" and Dell is a pr8 so this tells me that PR does not matter.

Or maybe it tells me that Dell is not using the keywords custom website in any of the anchor text pointing at their site.

Which answer do you think would be correct?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by inertia

One other note! I think linking out to trusted sites such as .gov and .edu can make you look trust worthy.

And don't forget to always link to Google. They need the traffic as well and will reward everyone that links to them with a higher ranking because this will send them more traffic as well since you have a link to them.

Just kidding

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by kgun

I think the misguide mainly comes from socalled SEO experts. How many have taken the time to understand Googles inverted link matrix model of the web? Hiding methods / algorithms is no more surprising than Coke hiding their forumla.

Thanks ! I would be studying semantics in detail.

I feel that Google is trying to play hide and seek by throwing pranks at SEO.

(PR)Page Rank might have been actually been a short form of (PR)-ANK. . Later Google might have thought why not to promote their own Larry page by telling users that this PRANK was actually started by Larry Page.

I feel that Trust Rank algorithm could be similar to artificial intelligent systems which do not work on the basis of predefined rules. However, they accumulate data and then create their own hypothesis.

Phew!! I would be watching a re-run of "BACK TO THE FUTURE" by steven speilberg to see if I can get some inside details on real ranking algo of Google

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by janeth

I out rank Dell for the keyword "custom website" and Dell is a pr8 so this tells me that PR does not matter.
Or maybe it tells me that Dell is not using the keywords custom website in any of the anchor text pointing at their site.
Which answer do you think would be correct?

I sometimes use Green Permanent Marker to increase my website's Page Rank manually on computer screen.

As far as Page Rank is concerned, I was referring to same set of websites aiming for SAME SET of high-competitive keywords on Google.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by davidweb

I sometimes use Green Permanent Marker to increase my website's Page Rank manually on computer screen.

lol

Originally Posted by davidweb

As far as Page Rank is concerned, I was referring to same set of websites aiming for SAME SET of high-competitive keywords on Google.

If everything else is equal the one with the best anchor text will win.

Good anchor text would be a link from a page with high PR, on the same subject as your own and with few out going links from the page.

And passes PR.

[Peter (IMC)]

(PR)Page Rank might have been actually been a short form of (PR)-ANK. . Later Google might have thought why not to promote their own Larry page by telling users that this PRANK was actually started by Larry Page.

It actually was started by Larry Page. He developed the PR algorithm based on the citation method used by scientists to see how good they are. (The more often your published work is cited in other published work, the better you are.)

I guess there are no pranks that are worth 80 billion dollars, so not really a prank.

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

The more often your published work is cited in other published work, the better you are

This is the truth of Page Rank. Page Rank simply shows how many backlinks you have.

However Trust Rank does not increase OR decrease too often. It is something which will stick to your website, and doesnt budge unless and until your SEO technique goes against the TRUST rank algo.

Trust Rank can increase or decrease Page Rank, but Page Rank has no control over Trust Rank. This is the major difference between these two algo's.

Moreover Trust Rank decides rankings of any website for a competitive set of keywords,whereas Page Rank is not a tool to gauge real ranking strength of any given website.

I am sure that Google will never risk to combine Trust Rank with Page Rank, because it would never want anyone to come closer to their real algo ( ie Trust Rank).

[inertia]

Originally Posted by davidweb

This is the truth of Page Rank. Page Rank simply shows how many backlinks you have.

I would say that showing the amount of inbound links you have is only ONE of the many things which the PageRank algo takes into account. What about link age, link text, number of links on the page, content of page, content of site, date of link creation in relation to other links etc. Maybe when PageRank first arrived it was a lot simpler but all these extra aspects have been added by G to weed out bad practices.

I do agree that an amount of "trust" is attached to your site and if you have conducted your site well then Google does trust it more. I don't think that "trust rank" is really PageRank. PageRank is PageRank and its what the G algo has been built around since its conception. Trust being part of the PageRank algo is probably more the case?

Originally Posted by davidweb

In the past 6-12 months, I am concentrating towards increasing Trust Rank of several websites which I optimize. Most of these websites have less back links and less PR , but they are outshining every single website for competitive keywords within their business niche.

What techniques (if they are not secret!?) have you been employing to build trust? The obvious one i can think of is links to and from .gov and .edu? Long term domain name registration? Erm...age?

I am pondering all of the above and would welcome opinion.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by davidweb

Their website was having a Page Rank higher than 6, but suddenly it has dropped to 0.However, I observed absolutely no change in rankings which is an indication that page rank is having little impact on rankings of any website.

That does not prove anything:

There may be a time delay between the Pr computation and the SERP part of the algorithme.

Trust is for me what I observe on the SERP's. That should be related to trusted and relevant IBL's.

Related link:
The ability to pass pagerank. Can it be lost?

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by inertia

What techniques (if they are not secret!?) have you been employing to build trust? The obvious one i can think of is links to and from .gov and .edu? Long term domain name registration? Erm...age?

I am pondering all of the above and would welcome opinion.

I think one of the most important technique is to move out of MATRIX of Page Rank. Domains like .edu and .gov can surely increase your trust rank, but it is not always possible to get web design website listed in .gov domain. One should always follow guidelines laid down by search engines, but at the same time one should apply his real thinking, brain power to the SEO. Problem really starts when people start to apply Googles brain to their own website. This is where theories like Page Rank evolve, and shift the focus from trust rank towards a rat race involving page ranks.

Most of the webmaster discard W3C guidelines, but implementing them can certainly help to increase your trust rank ( just my observation). I have personally observed increase in rankings of one of the websites which was previously penalized. We revamped entire website with a brand new W3C look, and it has started to shine for major competitive keywords.

You have to first accept the fact that a website with less page rank can do more benefit to your rankings, rather than a website with Page Rank 7. You will have to accept the fact that your rankings are not stored in Green Fluid ( Inside Google Toolbar).

Once we start moving out of Page Rank we will start to perceive trust rank closely. Most of the webmaster are so much absorbed with Page Rank theory that they hardly find any space to explore trust rank.

Trust rank is something with which your website is BORN and it doesnt budge after 3-4 months. Your page rank can variate in next updates but your trust rank will never budge unless and until you are going against trust rank.

I have personally observed that naturally optimized websites have higher trust rank as compared to those which have been inflated with HIGH PR back links.

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by kgun

That does not prove anything:

There may be a time delay between the Pr computation and the SERP part of the algorithme.

I do agree, and I am keeping close tabs on the rankings of that website. If they have gone against Trust Rank, their rankings will surely drop, but right now it seems that they have gone against the theory of page rank.

Trust rank controls page rank, but it is not vice versa. An increase in Page Rank doesnt mean that your Trust rank has increased. Trust Rank can be observed by your live rankings regardless of your page rank.

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by davidweb

I sometimes use Green Permanent Marker to increase my website's Page Rank manually on computer screen.

ahahahaha !! ..why havent i thought of that?

i might put that in my sig.

[inertia]

Originally Posted by davidweb

Trust rank is something with which your website is BORN and it doesnt budge after 3-4 months. Your page rank can variate in next updates but your trust rank will never budge unless and until you are going against trust rank.

David, i find a lot of your points interesting but i have to disagree with this. I'm certain that G trusts your site more and more as time goes on. It used to be the case that G had NO trust of a domain when it first appears online, now i think that they aren't so paranoid but they still have very little trust of a new domain. The sandbox theory confirms this.

I am 100% positive that the older your domain the more trust you have with G. I have seen this with my own site, which i put very little work into. But it still (slowly) climbs up the SERPS.

Originally Posted by kevsta

ahahahaha !! ..why havent i thought of that?

i might put that in my sig.

I can see a con opportunity here!
Advert - "PageRank 10 instantly!"

[davidweb]

Originally Posted by inertia

David, i find a lot of your points interesting but i have to disagree with this.

No worries. I am still exploring several aspects of trust rank, but surely I am not going to pay attention to page rank anymore. I have seen several spammy sites with 3 back links and a page rank of 6.

Originally Posted by davidweb

I sometimes use Green Permanent Marker to increase my website's Page Rank manually on computer screen.

Originally Posted by kevsta

ahahahaha !! ..why havent i thought of that?
i might put that in my sig.

Originally Posted by inertia

I can see a con opportunity here!
Advert - "PageRank 10 instantly!"

You have to be careful there since it is a SECRET BLACK HAT technique. One of my friends narrated how this technique saved his job.

His client site was ranking on top, but the client called up, and told him that he is doing a poor SEO JOB since their website's PR was only 2.

Then he told me that his little puppy dog was running around while holding a green marker in his mouth. That little puppy was too much infatuated by the MAGICAL POWERS OF that GREEN MASKED PUPPY in the movie MASK (jim carry). He was also infatuated with google toolbar, and was trying to turn his LITTLE white tail (PR0) into green color (similar to Google Toolbar PR 10). This is how this great invention took place.

He immediately grabbed his laptop and greenmarker, and headed straight for his client office. There he displayed this remarkable FEAT and the client was "HAPPY AS HELL". He kissed my friend on forehead, and told him that he is the best SEO in this world.

He had never seen PR increasing from 2 to 10 within 1-5 second. That was even faster than a Lamborghini or Ferrari.

However there is one serious pitfall. Everytime you/or your client changes his Screen resolution, it can seriously effect your Page Rank, and can BLOW YOUR COVER.

So make sure you keep close watch on your client's screen resolution. Also make sure that client doesnt change his screen resolution too often and there wont be any issues with Page Rank

[scanmonkey]

Originally Posted by inertia

I would say that the age and history of the domain plays a big part in trust. I've come across ancient front page sites which are still clinging to the top SERPs, much to the desperation of the client. When i asses the site the only conclusion i can logically come up with is that the domain has the benefits of a clean, lengthy past.

This can make it difficult for SEOs to work on a domain that has been live for many years - we dont always know whats happened in that time. Does anyone have any advice with regards to this?

Another factor that goes along with trust is authority. The age of the backlinks as well high searchrank links provide authority. Authority as well as trust help a site rank for the anchor text used in the backlink.

[Janna122003]

Originally Posted by davidweb

Most of you will agree with me that Page Rank has no impact on rankings of any website.

We have personally observed websites having <0 Page Rank ( launched 3 months back), are beating websites having Page Rank 4-5 with several hundred back links.

This clearly shows that Google uses a Trust Rank Algorithm which remain hidden in the background. There are several thousand threads discussing increase/decrease in Page Rank, but there are hardly any threads which discuss issues revolving around Trust Rank.

Therefore I would like to discuss various parameters which can help you increase your Trust Rank.

Some of the factors which i have observed are as given below :-

a) Informative and Unique Content.
b) Quality of back links rather than bulk of back links
c) Natural keyword density
d) Optimization history of any domain ( ie how optimization evolved on any website)

Please feel free to contribute your thoughts on how to increase Trust Rank.

Yes I agree, Pr has no effect on SERP but PR helps to indexed your site frequently. That was based on my observation.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by Janna122003

Yes I agree, Pr has no effect on SERP but PR helps to indexed your site frequently. That was based on my observation.

That's wrong. PR has effect on the positions of a website. But obviously, just PR doesn't do much. Just like just titles doesn't do much. It's the combination of everything that gets you high positions.

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

That's wrong. PR has effect on the positions of a website. But obviously, just PR doesn't do much. Just like just titles doesn't do much. It's the combination of everything that gets you high positions.

I don’t want to get the thread going in another direction but title tags are very important from my perspective, but your point is true Peter. SEO is like a cake recipe. You need all the ingredients to create a tasty piece of cake.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I don’t want to get the thread going in another direction but title tags are very important from my perspective

Yes, it is extremely important, and too long title tags are not good either. Some versions of Internet Explorer have problems bookmarking pages with too long title tags. Did you know that?

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

but your point is true Peter. SEO is like a cake recipe. You need all the ingredients to create a tasty piece of cake.

Yes, especially stable semantic IBL's with a good anchor text. I have read about examples where you can rank high on the SERP's for good anchor text on relevant IBL's.

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by kgun

Yes, it is extremely important, and too long title tags are not good either. Some versions of Internet Explorer have problems bookmarking pages with too long title tags. Did you know that?

Right kjell. Dups in titles and description tags should also be a concern. I have seen great pages suffer on ecommerce and larger websites because of it. Google uses the title attribute and description tag as a duplication identifier.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I don’t want to get the thread going in another direction but title tags are very important from my perspective, but your point is true Peter. SEO is like a cake recipe. You need all the ingredients to create a tasty piece of cake.

Yep, titles are very important from my perspective too... I Just wanted to get rid of this idea that PR isn't a ranking factor. PR and trust for that matter are ranking factors. All factors need to point in the same direction in order to get the most out of an SEO campaign. For some reason people are devided into 2 main groups: People that love it and make everything about PR, and people that think it has no importance what so ever. The reality of course is somewhere in between.

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Other factors are at play too of course. For example, keywords in the anchor text of backlinks. It is more likely that Google looks at the links that have the keyword in anchor text of backlinks and recalculates PR for that specific keyword. In that case for Keyword A, Website X can have a PR 2 while Website Y has a PR1. Now it makes more sense from a PR point of view that Website X outranks Website Y, without breaking Google's PR logic and it also means that PR still is at the heart of Google's search algorithms (which is what they claim in the first place.)

this (bolded) is a very interesting thought. rep added for this one whether its right or not.

this seems a very plausible approach IMO.

[williamc]

Ok, a few facts, but don't let these get in the way of some of the absurd theories...

PageRank is placed by page, not by keyword.
Toolbar PR is NOT the same as the real PR values google uses for modifying rankings.
Real Pagerank is still a ranking factor that can be measured.

[scanmonkey]

Originally Posted by williamc

Ok, a few facts, but don't let these get in the way of some of the absurd theories...

PageRank is placed by page, not by keyword.
Toolbar PR is NOT the same as the real PR values google uses for modifying rankings.
Real Pagerank is still a ranking factor that can be measured.

PageRank is placed by page is a good point.

I believe authority is placed on the keyword/anchor text.

Trust is the importance of a page and works with pagerank.

[inertia]

The logic behind it is simple: For keyword A you can find Website X with a PR2 outranking Website Y that has a PR4. Sure that happens and would proof you right. But you can also find that for Keyword B Website Y is outranking Website X, which would proof you wrong. So it's not like Website X ranks higher for Keyword A because of some trust factor. If that would be the case Website X would always outrank Website Y.

This is one of the hardest things to explain to a customer. When they see a site with lower tool bar PR outranking them for a phrase they get really confused. Its simply a case of that website being optimised more for that keyword. Whether this be through on site or off site practices.

Tool bar page rank to me is an indication score of all the off page marketing but it gives no indication of the specifics of that marketing (i.e. what anchor text the links use and what content those links come from.) I have given up looking at page rank when link building. Its got to be highly relevant and thats the only rule.

(do you reckon Google will get rid of the tool bar PR at any point soon? It seams to cause more problems than it solves!?)

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by williamc

Ok, a few facts, but don't let these get in the way of some of the absurd theories...

PageRank is placed by page, not by keyword.
Toolbar PR is NOT the same as the real PR values google uses for modifying rankings.
Real Pagerank is still a ranking factor that can be measured.

This may be interesting: Topic-Sensitive PageRank http://dbpubs.stanford.edu:8090/pub/2002-6

In the original PageRank algorithm for improving the ranking of search-query results, a single PageRank vector is computed, using the link structure of the Web, to capture the relative "importance" of Web pages, independent of any particular search query. To yield more accurate search results, we propose computing a set of PageRank vectors, biased using a set of representative topics, to capture more accurately the notion of importance with respect to a particular topic. By using these (precomputed) biased PageRank vectors to generate query-specific importance scores for pages at query time, we show that we can generate more accurate rankings than with a single, generic PageRank vector. For ordinary keyword search queries, we compute the topic-sensitive PageRank scores for pages satisfying the query using the topic of the query keywords. For searches done in context (e.g., when the search query is performed by highlighting words in a Web page), we compute the topic-sensitive PageRank scores using the topic of the context in which the query appeared.

Not saying that Google uses that, but I believe they use something like it. Why? Because it makes sense to use something like that.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

This may be interesting: Topic-Sensitive PageRank http://dbpubs.stanford.edu:8090/pub/2002-6

My bolding.

Not so sensitive on these PR 10 Pages - PR10 List - PageRank 10 Sites pages.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by kgun

My bolding.

Not so sensitive on these PR 10 Pages - PR10 List - PageRank 10 Sites pages.

Kgun, I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain a bit?

[kgun]

Forget it. May be I was too fast. Only scanned your post

[inertia]

i have a habit of doing that!

[scanmonkey]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

This may be interesting: Topic-Sensitive PageRank http://dbpubs.stanford.edu:8090/pub/2002-6




Not saying that Google uses that, but I believe they use something like it. Why? Because it makes sense to use something like that.

It makes sense. But I'm wondering if Google has incorporated it into its algo.