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PR sculpting is possible with nofollow, (but it's a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.) I agree with the way Janeth describes how PR works. Every page has a single PR point (not toolbar PR point but real PR point) to start with (before calculating the distribution of PR) and thus the total amount of PR available in Google's index is at most the number of pages they have indexed. Then after an iterative process the distribution of PR through links is determined. So that answers the question: "But, how is the initial value created?" There is no "proof" needed to determine wether or not PR sculpting with the nofollow works or not. It does work because if you deny a link to pass PR then the distribution will be different. The more important question is whether or not this has any significant effect on positions and traffic to your website. In my opinion it has very little effect simply because PR is just one of the many ranking factors and what's more important, the amount of PR you can channel away from certain pages to other pages is so small that you´re talking about a change in real PR of less than a %. In case you have a really big site of tens of thousands of pages (which is actually what Greg Boser is talking about, Webnauts) then you can significantly sculpt PR in the site. And I can imagine that in those specific cases it can have a positive effect on positions for some keywords. But I have to say that I suspect that there is also a negative effect on the number of keywords the site is found for which in turn means less traffic to the site. Which brings me back to my original point that using nofollow to sculpt PR is a waste of time.
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC Last edited by Peter (IMC); 03-26-2008 at 01:34 AM. |
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I don't see any relationship with nofollow and number of keywords on the page. |
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But then went on to say that your efforts would be better spent on something else. |
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The whole idea is to transfer the traffic to the more important pages. It doesn't matter if you lose 1,000 visitors coming to your 'privacy' page with a keyword "IP address", when you get another 1,000 going to your shopping cart page with a keyword "buy <product> now". |
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Another words if I have a web design site and fix the site so all my internal power is moved to one page that talks about custom website design. Then I rank #1 for custom website design but loose all the ranking for the rest of the site, was it worth loosing all my ranking power to the other pages? And what will the affect of all those pages linking back to my home page be now that I am not longer linking to them? Maybe my home page no longer ranks for web designers, which is more important than custom website designs. And now that Google is no longer visiting my privacy page or contact me page is it possible that they could no longer she me as a real business and I could drop in rankings because of this? Not saying not to use it but would have to wonder if it was worth it in the long run. |
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The key is how many times and from what places. Quote:
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You could get the same affect out of building a nice looking site with flash navigation or java and then linking to your main pages using text links inside your copy.
It would be a lot of work and would take some thanking but the result would be better in the long run. Each link would be surrounded by text. Then you could get links to all the internal pages from outside sites. You could even go to free hosting sites build a site about a certain topic, submit that site to the directories and then link the new site you just built back to the internal pages on your main site. Every internal page would have links coming from outside sites and would be linking to your main pages through the text links on those pages. |
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But, what is good with rel=nofollow (among other things) is that you can use it on old, existing sites and very easy earn some points. |
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When you nofollow a bunch of pages and also noindex them as described by Greg Boser then you´re going to lose a whole bunch of reasons to get positions for those types of keyword phrases. I can imagine that this has a negative effect on the total number of visitors. Generaly when we optimize a site the number of keywords the site is found for goes up 10 times. (like being found for 400 different keyword phrases per month before optimization to like 4000 different keyword phrases after optimization.) The nofollow (the way Greg Boser suggests to do in big sites) may have as a result that the total number of visitors goes down. The idea that the more important pages have to get more visitors by sculpting PR using nofollow doesn't make that much sense to me. You can argue that a contact page is less important, but it won't be found that often anyway. Quote:
Again, in huge sites there may be some effect, but then you'd be targeting higher level category pages and reduce the PR of the deeper content pages (That's Greg Boser's suggestion again). And in most comercial sites that would mean reducing the PR of your product pages. Doesn't seem that smart to do. Perhaps sites like article websites could benefit from something like this but for most sites, PR sculpting is a big waste of time.
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC |
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The simple fact (again) is that the distribution of the PR from a particular page depends on # of receiving links so instead of: "PR juice per link = Transfering PR / X links" you have "PR juice per link = Transfering PR / (X-#nofollow's)". The PR gain can be enough/substantial to boost important pages in serps and produce more traffic to those pages. The traffic to insignificant pages is reduced but they are still there, less linked, indexed, having the same content. |
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Dave |
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The guy is backpedalling in a way from his previous post where he insulted everyone not agreeing with his beliefs. The arguments were ranging from 'stupid search engine optimizers and total morons' to the more sophisticated ones such as 'incompetent asses and idiots'. This time his article was more moderate with the simple heading "Why your nofollow testing sucks", where he took a long journey to say that he still didn't believe it. Interestingly, in another article he states the following: "A good Web site only needs its own internal linkage to help most pages rank for something useful. A bad Web site relies on external links." Let's play fair here; I understand it was in another context. But he should be aware that the statement means more than he originally thought. Anyway I don't understand why so much dust around this question. There is nothing new here, good internal linking was always a kind of "artistic knowledge", with or without rel='nofollow'. You can dissipate your PR and link extensively all around or you can link smart. It's your choice. Last edited by activeco; 03-26-2008 at 07:47 PM. |
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In the variation implemented by Google, the damping factor is commonly assumed to be 0.85; what it actually is we cannot say. More importantly, though, we can say that the assumption re. each page being wholly unrelated to, i.e. independent of, all other pages is not present. The very fact that Google saw a need for the "nofollow" attribute serves as proof of such. Lastly, when Google first evaluates a given site, or later re-evaluates it, it does not reset all intial values to 1, or some proportionate value, and re-evaluate all pages. In this regard, Google's implementation varies significantly from the theoretical model presented in the origianl paper. Therefore, the question re. initial values, in Google's implementation, remains unanswered. If you're interested in studying the mathematics here involved, you may find PageRank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia useful. Quote:
Lastly, and most importantly, precisely how Google aggregates the PR of the individual pages within a site when determining SERP remains a closely guarded secret, so that we cannot with any degree of certainty say what the results of tinkering with the "nofollow" attribute of intra-site links might be.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com Last edited by deepsand; 03-26-2008 at 09:22 PM. |
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We don't know, and, more importantly, we can't find out on our own.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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Good thing I didn't give up my day job!
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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Dave |
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Seriously, though, can you see any way to construct a test such that all variables but the one to here be tested can be controlled or their effects nulled? Theoretically, one would construct 2 completely identical sites, right down to the date of domain registration, length of term of registration, owner, host, date(s) of being indexed, and any and all other externalities related to the these 2 sites. By doing the above the effects of any others sites should be equally felt by these 2 sites, thus effectively nulling such. One site would be the control. Once having confirmed that both are ranked equally by all of the SEs of interest, one would then tinkering with the intra-site links of the test site, one at a time, observing any changes in the SE's results, followed by 2-link alterations, etc.. The problem as I see it is how to meet the initial conditions re. externalities relating to the control and test sites, not to mention the potential problem of "duplicate content." Merely ensuring that both sites get indexed and re-indexed at the same time, and by the same data center, seems to be a show stopper.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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I go fishing and I put a worm on my hook throw it into the water and catch a big cat fish and repeat the process and catch another and continue to do this for a couple hours. Then someone walks up and says, "are there catfish in the pond" and I say, "yes".
Then they say, "can you prove it". I say, "yes look at all I've caught". They say, "yes but can you prove there are more". I throw my hook in and catch another. But they explain that they don't want to waste their time and would like for me to prove there are cat fish in the pond before they go fishing. I could have just caught the last one. We continue to do this for the next couple hours. Me catching fish and them asking me to prove there are fish in the pond. At the end of the day I've caught enough fish to pay my bills and buy a new car. They happily tell me they are glad they didn't give up their day job because I was unable to prove there were fish in the pond. Then they head to the store to by my fish. |
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If you want to do a test on if PR sculpting works do the following test:
Testing these things is possible but it's not the right way to go about it. Using common sense is much better and faster. For example, we know that the distance between the earth and the sun is about 149476000 kilometers (92900000 miles), but nobody ever measured it directly by measuring it with a ruler. (which wouldn't even be of much use anyway I guess considering that gravity has a direct effect on the length of the ruler, depending on from where you observe the ruler. To get back to the original question of the thread: Quote:
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC Last edited by Peter (IMC); 03-27-2008 at 12:18 AM. |
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC |
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There could be filters and penalties but that is beyond this thread. Quote:
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Adam Lasnik confirms that you are fully right too: Video: Interview with Adam Lasnik of Google | Online Marketing Blog
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"Being an expert isn't telling other people what you know. It's understanding what questions to ask, and flexibly applying your knowledge to the specific situation at hand. Being an expert means providing sensible, highly contextual direction." Jeff Atwood SEO Workers - Search Engine Optimization Consulting Company | SEO Analysis Tool | Webnauts Net SEO |
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I'm not sure if they do it exactly like that or if they use some sideway logic to determine link relevance seperately and not directly in PR it self. But it basically comes down to the same thing. So just blindly transfering PR to other pages is not as useful as it may seem.
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC Last edited by Peter (IMC); 03-27-2008 at 02:44 PM. |
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However, with "nofollow" and SERP, you cannot observe anything between your conjectured cause and any effect.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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Actually my mistake was to bring the "more PR = more traffic" statement as I thought of it as a general consensus. It was indeed not the question about the benefits of the PR raising on some pages, but simply 'was it possible to do using "nofollow"'. The thread regarding your definition of PR could be interesting and I would suggest you to start the one. |
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Note, however, that such does not contain details re. Google's implementation of such. Of particular interest is the question of what damping values Google uses for intra-site links as opposed to inter-site ones.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com Last edited by deepsand; 03-27-2008 at 04:09 PM. |
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I am pretty sure that the Google's PR distribution from one page does not pass (anymore) the same weight to all the outbound links equally, as well as the possible discount for internal linking, but that's not the topic either. Anyway could you tell me what you don't agree with (if so), regarding my PR understanding and what part of that Wikipedia page I should pay a special attention to? Last edited by activeco; 03-27-2008 at 04:34 PM. |
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As a bonus let me provide the public here with the related quote straight from the official horse's mouth.
It was Cutts' reply to Martinez' article "SEO Myth: You can control the flow of PageRank on your site". Quote:
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And, since Google may in fact have done such, which I suspect given the circumspect manner in which M. Cutts has addressed the issue, this particular point is very much on-topic. I was not taking issue with anything that you stated; rather, having noticed your mention of discussing a definition of Page Rank, and not knowing if you'd read the original paper or any abstracts of it, I offered the wiki link as a starting point. If, after a thorough review of your posts, I find anything worthy of disagreeable mention, I'll address such then.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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He just thinks that it is the common knowledge that not all link flow is necessarily the PageRank flow, but that all PR flow goes through the links, even internal ones. Strange, isn't it? |
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For, if one interprets his remark to mean that all PR flow is Link flow, but not all Link flow is PR flow, then he would seem to be supporting Michael's claim that you cannot control internal PR flow. And, were this the case, why even make his comment? In view of other comments of his, my take is that Cutts is given to making comments that are deliberately obfuscatory.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com |
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My impression of him is that he's honest, knowledgeable and very straight, up to the point. Of course he's limited with the Google's trade secret, but in most cases he can express himself clearly without breaking it. |
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Rather, I see his bent toward obfuscation as being a natural result of his commitment to faithfully discharging his obligations with respect to maintaining confidentiality. My observation in this respect is, therefore, not a condemnation of his remarks, but rather an advisory that one should be exceedingly careful about believing that they wholly and accurately understand all that they read into his statements. My personal preference would be that, when unable to speak plainly in a manner that fully and accurately addresses the issue at hand, he simply refrain from commenting.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com Last edited by deepsand; 03-27-2008 at 10:48 PM. |
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This way nobody is ever right about anything in your book.
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FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it! Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC |
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and great thread guys, best discussion have seen on this anywhere. |
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We can use other things like flash and java instead of the nofollow tag. This has been around for a long time, the only thing that is new is using the nofollow tag. And the fact that you can come into a site without having to make a lot of design changes to keep the bots from following a link. |
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btw i am utterly convinced there is merit with this too. no its not very predictable, & its certainly not a sterile environment within which to theorise or test, but sometimes a suck it and see approach can unearth things no amount of debate or procrastination ever will. am not anywhere near confident enough to advise or use on clients sites or anything thats not my own as yet, but i wouldnt rule it out at all in the future.
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Small Business Search Engine Optimisation Fitness Holidays Inmobiliaria Real Estate Ibiza Last edited by kevsta; 03-28-2008 at 01:27 PM. |
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Elementary, Dr. Watson.
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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com Last edited by deepsand; 03-28-2008 at 03:34 PM. |
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Michael calls controlling PR within a site a myth. Says you cannot control PR flow only link flow.
To me, Matt's reply to Michael is pretty fundamental, since links are the only way you can "flow" PR. Controlling where your links point is controlling where PR flows. I also understand the point Michael is making. Since it cannot be known how much PR a particular link passes, if it passes PR at all, you cannot "control" what cannot be known. All that is really is known is that PR is preserved and cannot be left on the table. So, preventing it from going one place means it has to go somewhere else. While you can control where the links point, you can't control, on the granular level, how much of it goes where. You can only point. Dave |
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I was on a call with Matt Cutt's, Adam Lasnik and other Googler's and I brought this topic up at the end of the call. Basically Matt said if you site navigation is fundamentally sound (which it should be in the first place) he said you would be wise spending your time in other optimization techniques.
Take that as you will. Update on PR Sculpting Question from Google Webmaster Help Groups Call and Matt Cutts - Search Marketing Blog from Cincinnati, Ohio |
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