Nofollow for pages on your own site?

[calledminime]

From what I've been reading, the nofollow coding should be included if you don't wish to pass page rank to a link. While this makes sense to me for a link to an external site, should this coding be included on pages within your own site?

My question is then: is there a certain amount of page rank that your site has as a whole? If you continue to add additional web pages, are you in fact diluting the overall authority/page rank of all the pages?

If yes, should you use the no follow coding to keep new pages (that don't necessarily need to be ranked) to keep the PR/authority on the more important pages?

For example, should you add this coding on a product page on your site that has links to various relevant product information pages? In my mind, while there are lots of pages that are great for informational purposes, they don't necessarily need to have page rank passed on to them -- I would prefer to keep that on my most important pages.


Any validity to my thoughts?

[crankydave]

Here's the very important thing to keep in mind...

Adding "nofollow" to a link tells the SE's to completely ignore the link. So it stops everything not just the flow of PR.

Dave

[DanThies]

When you add pages to your site, and those pages get indexed, you are adding to the total PageRank that exists inside your site. The reason why you might want to cut some internal links (with nofollow) is to better control *where* the PageRank goes.

As Dave points out, it's important to understand all of the implications before you decide to use nofollow internally. I've written a couple tutorial type posts on my blog @ SEO Fast Start, and of course it's part of my book. It's not for everyone, and the impact isn't always very dramatic.

The biggest impact is in "run of site" links to empty or useless pages (e.g. a 'view cart' page on a shopping site) and links from your home page.

[crankydave]

Just as a follow up Dan... Hypothetical...

A site uses internal "nofollows" on a bulk of their pages, but not all, because they don't want the page to be deindexed, just want to micromanage PR. A SE finds the bulk of those "nofollows" pointing to a page that's in their index. Do they deindex the page? Is a little extra PR passed by the remaining links better than an additional page?

Dave

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Here's the very important thing to keep in mind...

Adding "nofollow" to a link tells the SE's to completely ignore the link. So it stops everything not just the flow of PR.

Dave

So you dont see spiders visiting links with nofollow on them? I have.

[calledminime]

I was under the impression that the nofollow still allowed a link to be indexed but that page rank was not assigned -- is this correct?


Purely hypothetical: say that your site has a total PR of 100.

If you have 5 pages and the PR is distributed evenly, each page would be worth 20.
If you increase your site by an additional 5 pages, and the total PR of 100 is distributed evenly amongst the 10 pages, each page would be worth 10 now. By adding additional pages you continue to diluted the total overall PR of all the pages.

Is this hypothetical assumption correct? If yes, could you not use the nofollow coding to restrict PR from being passed onto certain pages (pages that are informational, but don't necessarily need the PR). By restricting the PR from being passed (to say, 5 pages via nofollow) you are again distributing the total PR of 100 to a lower number of pages; thereby helping to keep a higher PR/value to the pages that matter most.



If indeed it example is correct, is it something that is worthwhile to do?

[pankaj.sharma]

Thanx for all you guys for this nice discussion.
I have also somany doubt abt this nofollow within the site. Now i feel comfortable.

[thindenim]

A way I have implemented nofollow on my site is the following: -

I have 6 product departments, 2 of which are more important than the others (a lot more). Instead of splitting my link juice evenly between the 6 departments I link directly to the 2 important, link to the other 4 with no follow and place a link called "all departments", which is followed.

On the all departments page (which is passed pagerank) there are then links (followed) to each of the 6 departments. There are obviously other links on the page, but if we ignore them for a second the following happens: -

Again, using a hypothetical linkjuice rating of 100: -

Departments 1 & 2 get 33.3 points
The "All Departments" page gets 33.3 points
Each department (including 3,4,5,6) then gets 5.55 points passed from the all departments page.

If you left off Departments 1 & 2 from the all departments page, the 3,4,5,6 would get a quarter share of the 33.3 points.

Obviously this will only work if you have certain areas of your site, which you deem to be considerably more relevant than others. Nothing is orphaned in the structure, but you are passing more link juice to the more important sections.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

So you dont see spiders visiting links with nofollow on them? I have.

I have seen pages get deindexed completely despite there being other live and indexed links to that page.

Dave

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by calledminime

I was under the impression that the nofollow still allowed a link to be indexed but that page rank was not assigned -- is this correct?

Nofollow tells the SE not to follow the link at all.

Dave

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Nofollow tells the SE not to follow the link at all.

Dave

Yes but it doesnt mean that they actually do not follow the link.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Yes but it doesnt mean that they actually do not follow the link.

Except that MC has already said that it can cause a page to become "orphaned". And, as I have said, I have seen pages get deindexed when the nofollow is added to links that point to the page.

So whether or not they "actually" follow the link or not really doesn't matter if the pages are getting orphaned or deindexed because of it.

Dave

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by crankydave

doesn't matter if the pages are getting orphaned or deindexed because of it.

Strange I am not seeing pages deindexed because I nofollow to it. If you theory were true then I could nofollow to pages that I wanted to see removed from the G index. I know that it is not the case at all.

[thindenim]

The link would only become deindexed if there were no followed links to it (internal or external) from any pages which are indexed by google.

As I understand it a web page needs at least one inbound link to be included in googles index.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Strange I am not seeing pages deindexed because I nofollow to it. If you theory were true then I could nofollow to pages that I wanted to see removed from the G index. I know that it is not the case at all.

Except that I know first hand that it happens.

Dave

[Tubby]

Well I hope not.

I have an email here. part of it reads'

"tubbs. i now usng nofollow on every go out linking. it very hard to get 6rate with pr i do not know how to keep it. i do not take chances it is you call a status. iwant most status."

The above is posted as it was written. ( he does not sell links)

We can argue all day about who follows what, in the mean time links are disapearing for the wrong reasons

[scot184]

Can you/should you add "no follow" to feedburner links and other related feed items?

Thanks.

[calledminime]

Originally Posted by thindenim

A way I have implemented nofollow on my site is the following: -

I have 6 product departments, 2 of which are more important than the others (a lot more). Instead of splitting my link juice evenly between the 6 departments I link directly to the 2 important, link to the other 4 with no follow and place a link called "all departments", which is followed.

On the all departments page (which is passed pagerank) there are then links (followed) to each of the 6 departments. There are obviously other links on the page, but if we ignore them for a second the following happens: -

Again, using a hypothetical linkjuice rating of 100: -

Departments 1 & 2 get 33.3 points
The "All Departments" page gets 33.3 points
Each department (including 3,4,5,6) then gets 5.55 points passed from the all departments page.

If you left off Departments 1 & 2 from the all departments page, the 3,4,5,6 would get a quarter share of the 33.3 points.

Obviously this will only work if you have certain areas of your site, which you deem to be considerably more relevant than others. Nothing is orphaned in the structure, but you are passing more link juice to the more important sections.

The way you have implemented this is exactly what I am interested in trying.

My question to you is, have you noticed any difference in terms of PR, search results and in the authority of the pages that have had more "link juice" passed on -- department 1 & 2.

For all the work you've spent setting this structure up, have you noticed the results and in your opinion, is it worth it?

Originally Posted by crankydave

Except that MC has already said that it can cause a page to become "orphaned". And, as I have said, I have seen pages get deindexed when the nofollow is added to links that point to the page.

So whether or not they "actually" follow the link or not really doesn't matter if the pages are getting orphaned or deindexed because of it.

Dave

Isn't the nofollow command recommended by Google for the sole purpose of not passing link juice/PR and is their preferred method to help cut down artificial ranking created from paid links? It would seem counter-intuitive on Google's part to recommend a method and then turn around and deindex pages because it is being used -- otherwise, why would anyone use it?

[innominds]

Originally Posted by scot184

Can you/should you add "no follow" to feedburner links and other related feed items?

Thanks.

If you do not want to pass the benefit, then better use nofollow tag.

[seoimage]

Originally Posted by calledminime

Isn't the nofollow command recommended by Google for the sole purpose of not passing link juice/PR and is their preferred method to help cut down artificial ranking created from paid links? It would seem counter-intuitive on Google's part to recommend a method and then turn around and deindex pages because it is being used -- otherwise, why would anyone use it?

Nofollow does not deindex pages it simply tells the Engine not to pass PR or penalize the site for a bad link out (spam). At points in time links with nofollow showed in backlinks of sites in Google so we know Google still follows the link. "Noindex" (added to the code as a meta tag or robots.txt) will deindex it. Nofollow should really be defined as "do not pass pagerank and don't penalize me for linking to a bad neighborhood". Or as stated by some experts: "Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200".

Using it internally is to place more value to important pages and less value to pages like the Privacy Policy, Contact, or other pages that may even be duplicates like dynamic forms. The belief is that by cutting the PR to pages that most likely will never rank, we can power up the pages that should with every little nook and cranny we can find.

When used internally it is for that purpose. When used externally its for self preservation and PR hoarding or in today's world advertising and branding.

[jtracking]

I've 'nofollowed' user cart pages and the likes cause I think it tells the se's not to waste their time - as a courtesy and remember although page rank may not be passed the use still clicks on the link some of the time...

[calledminime]

Originally Posted by seoimage

Using it internally is to place more value to important pages and less value to pages like the Privacy Policy, Contact, or other pages that may even be duplicates like dynamic forms. The belief is that by cutting the PR to pages that most likely will never rank, we can power up the pages that should with every little nook and cranny we can find.

When used internally it is for that purpose. When used externally its for self preservation and PR hoarding or in today's world advertising and branding.

Your response backs up my assumption that the nofollow command does not de-index and it can be used internally to keep PR/value to the more important pages.

Do you in fact use the nofollow on your own site? If so, have you noticed any impact and was it worth the time and effort?

[DanThies]

Nofollowing links to a page, by itself, won't cause a page to be deindexed. If you take away enough pagerank from the page, then Google will likely drop it, unless there are external links that cause it to gain more. Matt Cutts from Google has been quite explicit about why using nofollow internally is OK, but that doesn't mean that we can't screw it up.

Be careful about assuming cause and effect. I've seen pages get deindexed when I did nothing. I've seen pages get deindexed after I looked at them with the Google and Alexa toolbars installed at the same time. I've seen pages get deindexed when I sneezed on the monitor.

[calledminime]

Originally Posted by DanThies

Nofollowing links to a page, by itself, won't cause a page to be deindexed. If you take away enough pagerank from the page, then Google will likely drop it, unless there are external links that cause it to gain more. Matt Cutts from Google has been quite explicit about why using nofollow internally is OK, but that doesn't mean that we can't screw it up.

Be careful about assuming cause and effect. I've seen pages get deindexed when I did nothing. I've seen pages get deindexed after I looked at them with the Google and Alexa toolbars installed at the same time. I've seen pages get deindexed when I sneezed on the monitor.

DanThies,

Do you by chance have any links to Matt Cutt's entries about using the nofollow command internally -- I would be very interested in reading up some more about it.

Also, your remarks about deindexing are troubling

[seoimage]

Originally Posted by calledminime

Your response backs up my assumption that the nofollow command does not de-index and it can be used internally to keep PR/value to the more important pages.

Do you in fact use the nofollow on your own site? If so, have you noticed any impact and was it worth the time and effort?

I have used it on large sites and it is possible it helps. It is always very hard to determine the exact factor unless you try a controlled study. When you use multiple techniques simultaneously any factor can have a slight push. So I cannot give you a definitive, nofollow used internally is a newer approach but the belief behind makes it worth a shot.

Originally Posted by DanThies

I've seen pages get deindexed when I sneezed on the monitor.

You and me both!!!!

[wige]

Originally Posted by DanThies

I've seen pages get deindexed when I sneezed on the monitor.

I keep telling people, that toolbar tracks everything.

Originally Posted by calledminime

Do you by chance have any links to Matt Cutt's entries about using the nofollow command internally -- I would be very interested in reading up some more about it.

Bot Obedience: Herding Googlebot

[crankydave]

Here's some more...

Matt Cutts Provides Insight into the "nofollow" Attribute

Dave

[calledminime]

Originally Posted by wige

I keep telling people, that toolbar tracks everything.


Bot Obedience: Herding Googlebot

Originally Posted by crankydave

Here's some more...

Matt Cutts Provides Insight into the "nofollow" Attribute

Dave

Thanks for the links.

The more I read up on this topic, the more ambiguous the nofollow command appears to be.
Cutt's gives an explanation about what it does but does not provide an in-depth explanation of how exactly it works or how it truly impacts your site.

Seems like too much work and uncertainty to make it worthwhile -- especially with Dave's personal experiences with de-indexing to factor in as well.


Anyone else have thoughts about this topic?

[DanThies]

No references on the monitor sneezing issue, but...

Rand Fishkin's interview with Matt (also read Matt's comments on Rand overstating the case): SEOmoz | Matt Cutts on Nofollow, Links-Per-Page and the Value of Directories
Some examples from my tutorial: Dynamic Linking & Nofollow - Practical Examples, Diagrams, + FAQs
More explanation & background: How To Get More Pages Indexed With Nofollow

Mods, delete those if you feel you must, but the trackback sends more people this way than the other way.

[ExtravagantMedia]

Bear in mind that Google will generally only assign page rank for as many layers deep that you have page rank for.
For example: You have a PR4 site. It will assign page rank to links as deep as 4 layers that are internally or externally linked.

Index.html PR4 links to Directory page 1
Directory page 1 PR3 links to Directory page 2
Directory page 2 PR2 links to Directory page 3
Directory page 3 PR1 links to Directory page 4
Directory page 4 and all subsequent pages are PR0