Educated Guess

[ghp]

Originally Posted by thindenim

Unless each site is providing a unique user experience I would concentrate on one site. If you get spotted (or reported) then you are likely to be seen as spamming and get your sites blacklisted.

How about 301 redirect of each of the domains to a specific page on your main site?

I fully agree that one site is better, I have recently been having the very pleasant surprise that my new sites get indexed and actually make it to the 1st page in some cases in the number one position for competitive keywords in the gambling industry. In some cases I have 0 (as in ZERO) backlinks. I suspect it has to do with our very clean custom built content management system, good quality and original content.

My latest site is achieving top positions within one week of launching.

My advice is:

1. Concentrate on your content
2. Make sure your site code and links are clean
3. Validate your pages at w3c.org
4. Do not buy incoming links
5. If you do decide to use multiple domains make sure you do a 301 redirect
6. Have clean seo friendly URLs
7. Do not do keyword spamming
8. Use your keywords wisely, (alt tags, H1 tags, page titles, bolding etc)
9. submit your sitemap to google webmaster tools

This is my 2 cents of advice, good luck

[Kate Lennon]

"Thanks for the speech Kate."

You're welcome, Rick. And thank you for the dumb questions.

[ghp]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

You'll forgive me if I call shenanigans on the fact that you have "no" as in "0" links pointing to your website and you rank #1 for anything other than a made up word..

I completely disagree, I have seen in multiple occasions for poker and other gambling related keywords that I have achieved top positions with no backlinks whatsoever, and may I add also that this was done within a week of launching the site so what about the sandbox???

I think most people are missing the point and concentrating on how to achieve better seo, if instead you concentrate on the content of your site and focus on your visitors you will achieve good results. Just follow the simple google guidelines and provide a good experience to your visitors and you will do fine.

[Feydakin]

IF there are no links to the page how are people finding it to get to it??

[ghp]

We submitted that sitemap to google webmaster tools, and are getting traffic through organic search results.

[joncase]

IMHO, if you don't have 95 different phone numbers and 95 different addresses to use in these satellite websites, the Google man will figure your plan out rather quickly. They will see you are the same business with 96 websites. No?
Jon

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by ghp

I have recently been having the very pleasant surprise that my new sites get indexed and actually make it to the 1st page in some cases in the number one position

That's normal. Give it a while and you'll probably see those sites drop like a stone. When Google doesn't have all the historical data yet, they don't use it. It gives you some time of high rankings and once they start using the historical data, you´re nowhere to be found.

I guess you can say that when you´re just born you get all the attention, but once you learned how to walk and are allowed to play in the sandbox, that's where you will be for a while.

[Feydakin]

Originally Posted by ghp

We submitted that sitemap to google webmaster tools, and are getting traffic through organic search results.

So there are links to the page.. At least in your sitemap and internal navigation..

[inertia]

All this original content that you say will make up the 95 regional site sounds great! But why not put it on the main site? If you do this correctly with decent titles, structure and links then individual pages should rank well for the regional keywords anyway. This would save you money, time and you wont have to worry about Google banning every site due to your semi-blackhat marketing methods...

[Dubbya]

As others have already pointed out and IMHO, the logistics, costs and and time it takes to build, update and maintain 95 separate sites with 3-5 pages each, far outweigh the benefits.

You might want to balance your efforts. I'd recommend that you focus on building a few highly relevant sites (bigger than 3-5 pages) and use those to drive some business to your main site. For the greater number of the new domains, you'd see a much faster ROI were you to simply use 301 redirects which point to your main site.

301's work on several levels. I've got two sites, each with 14-18 domains that are 301 redirected to the main sites and, for weeks after implementing them, my placements in search results climbed steadily. What's more, they've continued to place consistently despite some pretty significant marketing efforts by the competition.

Big picture, using 301's is a legitimate white-hat SEO technique and you won't be penalized in the SERP's. They're simple to set up and require no maintenance. While invisible in the SERP's, they'll likely help the main site rank more highly across a more broad range of search phrases (for the simple fact that they point to your main site), and they'll pull in some additional random traffic.


With 95 new domains, 301's are where I'd put my money and my time.

.02

[wige]

(I know you probably know this already, but just in case

For the domains that you don't plan to develop, I honestly can't see that you would get much benefit from owning those names, other than possibly preventing competitors from registering the names. If you 301 redirect the domains, they will have no content, and so will not be indexed by the search engines in most cases. No one will link to them, so even if they do get indexed, they won't show up for any searches, and without links the search engines won't even have a way to find them. The only way you would get any traffic from these domains is if someone manually types in the domain name. And honestly, how many times have you guessed a domain name and typed it in your browser?

[villageloop]

With all of this talk about google changing their algorithm and everyone losing their rankings. I don't understand why people who try to spam the engine get upset.
Buying 95 domains and doing whatever it is to them to make your main domain rank higher is spam. It is not illegal, it is not unethical, but it is spam!
Google does their best to keep their search results relevant by avoiding spam. This is why they have to change their algorithm to stay relevant.

Good luck maintaining your 95 domains.

I am sure it will work.... for a while.


--Steven
____________________
Alig Technology Group, Inc.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by villageloop

With all of this talk about google changing their algorithm and everyone losing their rankings. I don't understand why people who try to spam the engine get upset.
Buying 95 domains and doing whatever it is to them to make your main domain rank higher is spam. It is not illegal, it is not unethical, but it is spam!
Google does their best to keep their search results relevant by avoiding spam. This is why they have to change their algorithm to stay relevant.

Good luck maintaining your 95 domains.

I am sure it will work.... for a while.


--Steven
____________________
Alig Technology Group, Inc.

Ah, a sane voice in the wilderness! ;D

[meinking22]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

And PS - my newest site (which is at the top of Google search results) has NO LINKS pointing to it from other websites.
So much for the importance of inbound links and link-exchange programs.

Let me guess. You're ranking #1 for the keyword phrase "cinnamon scented oval shaped soap"...

Steve

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

And PS - my newest site (which is at the top of Google search results) has NO LINKS pointing to it from other websites.
So much for the importance of inbound links and link-exchange programs.

Kate

Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. Without seeing the site in question I'm guessing there isn't much competition, or no competition at all, for your particular key word search(s). The need for inbound links etc is directly proportional to the popularity of the specific search

Regards
Rick

[imsickofwebpro]

Final Thought…

Aren’t all websites with similar content in a sense, competitors? Why would another website want to link to me if I compete with them? I personally don’t link to anyone except myself and partners.


Microsite Localization allows you to take control of your website's popularity by creating relevant linkbacks rather than patiently waiting for a competitor to link to you.

This technique has been adopted by many large organizations and it is working wonders for smaller more progressive organizations. It gives you a competitive advantage over industry leaders.

In today's competitive market, businesses are fighting tooth and nail for every last sale. Your job as a SEO professional is to outperform the competition and generate leads. There is no better way to vanquish the competition than by eliminating their presence on the 1st page of every SE. This is the strategy behind Microsite Localization.

Benefits:
1. Multiple points of consumer contact
2. Geographical optimization
3. More of your listings turn up in keyword searches
3. Eliminate competitors by introducing intra-brand competition

Rules:
1. Buy a number of localized or keyword rich domains.
2. Build a number of unique microsites, blogs or forums related to the product(s)/services(s) you are offering. (Distribution principle)
3. Purchase a few low-cost hosting packages.
4. Evenly distribute your new websites to your new servers.
5. SEO the microsites using the same techniques you used to empower your flagship website.
6. Periodically interlink microsites and add new links to your main website. (Don’t overdue the links. Just add a couple at a time.)

For Best Results:
1. Make sure all the new domain names aren't registered to the same company or owner. (Spread the ownership)
2. Make sure you have a multi-domain CMS or a good handle on Dreamweaver site manager in order to manage all of the websites. (Handling +100 websites isn’t that hard, I’ve done it)
3. Blogs and forums are effective because other members can help you add fresh content.
4. If applicable, use a multi-language approach. This will decrease the amount of content you have to write.

Possible Issues:
1. Web Ring: Hosting a large number of websites on a server isn’t the issue The issue is when a large number of websites on one server interlink, thus creating a ‘Web’. This stirs Google’s suspicion, though I’ve never seen any legitimate company vanquished by Google. To be safe, make sure the websites are clustered on different servers.
2. Domain Ownership: One company owning 1000 domains can be suspicious. Have family members and trusted employees purchase domains under their ownership. This removes SE suspicion.
3. You eliminate the competition and they dislike you.

This technique works and it works well. I’ve given you the run-down. It’s your choice.

[rickanderson]

thanks sicko, i mean, Imsickof for the time and energy for the input. ...and thanks to all the others prior to you for their input..

my head hurts. lol

Rick

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by villageloop

With all of this talk about google changing their algorithm and everyone losing their rankings. I don't understand why people who try to spam the engine get upset.
Buying 95 domains and doing whatever it is to them to make your main domain rank higher is spam. It is not illegal, it is not unethical, but it is spam!
Google does their best to keep their search results relevant by avoiding spam. This is why they have to change their algorithm to stay relevant.

Good luck maintaining your 95 domains.

I am sure it will work.... for a while.


--Steven
____________________
Alig Technology Group, Inc.

Hi Steve

I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Upset Party.

Also, one persons spam is another persons cleverness.

I know of someone who has 1300 sites. He's a plumbing contractor and has a stranglehold on every paid sponsored link up top the generics in north america. Spam or clever?

Go large or go home I say.

Regards
Rick

[Kate Lennon]

Feydakin: "You'll forgive me if I call shenanigans on the fact that you have "no" as in "0" links pointing to your website and you rank #1 for anything other than a made up word.."

No links; null links, zero links, 0 links - what's not clear about that? The site went to the top of Google search results (page 1, top 5 listings) for relevant search terms without having any (ie, zero, nil, nada, zip, nix, etc.) links to it from other websites. And no, not for made up words. It's a property website, and it's found for popular and generic key terms.
And my point is that most SEO "experts" assert that inbound links are the most important factor in search engine (ie, Google) results positioning. How, then, does a new website with no inbound links and a PR of zero, get to be on page one of search results?

On a separate issue, may I ask (the moderator) why my previous post was deleted? Are members of this forum not allowed to respond to "contributors" who are rude and offensive to them?

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

The site went to the top of Google search results (page 1, top 5 listings) for relevant search terms without having any (ie, zero, nil, nada, zip, nix, etc.) links to it from other websites. And no, not for made up words. It's a property website, and it's found for popular and generic key terms.

Hi Kate

Whats the website?

Rick

[imsickofwebpro]

Hi Kate,

Is this your website UK Psychics - Britain's Leading Psychics Offer Expert Readings Online.

Couple things:
Pages Indexed: 228
Backlinks: 5690
Age of URL: 8 years

Hmmm???


On a side note:
Get on those unfair moderators! I agree, you should be able to say whatever you want on this forum... except for bad swear words! That's understandable.

[wige]

I don't see any posts as being deleted...

Note, this thread has been getting a lot of posts, and sometimes a post may be "out of order" compared to when you hit the submit button. If it was after a certain other post when you submitted it, it may be a few spots above or below that position if other posts were entered while you were typing your post.

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by inertia

All this original content that you say will make up the 95 regional site sounds great! But why not put it on the main site? If you do this correctly with decent titles, structure and links then individual pages should rank well for the regional keywords anyway. This would save you money, time and you wont have to worry about Google banning every site due to your semi-blackhat marketing methods...

Hey inertia

I'm here to be known and known to be the devastating prince of s-e-o-ology
too hot to handle too bold to hold the professional spammer of the microphone
i graduated from the college of the street
got a phd in how to make ends meet
inflation of the nation wont bother me
cause im a scholar with a dollar you can plainly see

Thanks for the input dude. And nice hip hop site btw

Rick
(former rap artist for the all white rap group Run BMW)

[Kate Lennon]

"Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. Without seeing the site in question I'm guessing there isn't much competition, or no competition at all, for your particular key word search(s). The need for inbound links etc is directly proportional to the popularity of the specific search."

In fact there is enormous competition for the search terms I'm talking about. It's a property website announcing properties for sale in the south of Spain. This is one of the most competitive markets in the world (online and offline). The site listing displays on page 1 of Google for the most commonly-used search terms. Ergo, the number of inbound links (none, in this case) cannot be proportional to the search engine results position.

Incidentally, another website that I manage (also Spanish property-related) also went to page 1 in Google search results (with a PR of 4) before it had any links pointing to it from other websites (and I mean for popular search terms such as "property Spain", "property south of Spain" etc.). Like you, I figured I would "get ahead of the curve" and get some inbound links in an effort to consolidate the site's Google position. I signed up to a link-exchange program, and within a few months the site had around 100 inbound (reciprocated) links. Result? The PR dropped from 4 down to 3. The Google position didn't change at all. Four years later, the site appears in exactly the same position (on the top of page 1) as it did on day 1, before it had any inbound links. All those links don't seem to have made the slightest bit of difference - except that the PR dropped. And since the search results position wasn't affected by this drop, it didn't bother me. As far as I can see, PR value also does not seem to be very important to a site's search engine positioning.

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

"Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. Without seeing the site in question I'm guessing there isn't much competition, or no competition at all, for your particular key word search(s). The need for inbound links etc is directly proportional to the popularity of the specific search."

In fact there is enormous competition for the search terms I'm talking about. It's a property website announcing properties for sale in the south of Spain. This is one of the most competitive markets in the world (online and offline). The site listing displays on page 1 of Google for the most commonly-used search terms. Ergo, the number of inbound links (none, in this case) cannot be proportional to the search engine results position.

Incidentally, another website that I manage (also Spanish property-related) also went to page 1 in Google search results (with a PR of 4) before it had any links pointing to it from other websites (and I mean for popular search terms such as "property Spain", "property south of Spain" etc.). Like you, I figured I would "get ahead of the curve" and get some inbound links in an effort to consolidate the site's Google position. I signed up to a link-exchange program, and within a few months the site had around 100 inbound (reciprocated) links. Result? The PR dropped from 4 down to 3. The Google position didn't change at all. Four years later, the site appears in exactly the same position (on the top of page 1) as it did on day 1, before it had any inbound links. All those links don't seem to have made the slightest bit of difference - except that the PR dropped. And since the search results position wasn't affected by this drop, it didn't bother me. As far as I can see, PR value also does not seem to be very important to a site's search engine positioning.

Kate

Thanks for the detailed response. I would like to believe what you say is true. I trust that what you say is entirely true as you know it..... I just don't know about the conclusion. Again, it's a correllation causation issue for me. I would love it if I heard more stories like yours....would make my life a lot easier. You're the first person I have ever heard downplay the importance of inbound links I guess is what I'm really trying to say.

Happy to hear about your success though.

Regards
Rick

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by imsickofwebpro

Why would another website want to link to me if I compete with them? I personally don’t link to anyone except myself and partners.

Hey ISOWPW

Although your question seems somewhat rhetorical I'm going to treat it like a profoundly important question, because I have learned something this past year that was completely foreign to me.

I have been a big Survivor Island fan since it began 7 or so years ago. The one thing you completely *get* if you watch the show is how important alliances are. You be my friend and I'll be yours, blood brothers so to speak. The stronger the alliance the better chance for success; it's that simple.

With this in mind, a year ago I stopped seeing "my competition" as the competition and made a concerted effort to befriend any and all painting contractors and to have an attitude of 'how can I help you?"...sounds bizarre I know. But if you have this attitude it's also very easy to have the attitude..."how can YOU help me?"

This past summer I was doing a walk around with a client and another contractor (the estimator for the competing company) and decided to treat him like a friend and not the enemy.... We got along great and exchanged cards and that was that.

Fast forward a week when I'm about to press "send" on my Word Document which is in fact my formal contract bid for the job....$16,000.00. At the last second I decided to call up the boss of the guy I met during the walk-a-round and asked him point blank whether he was interested in doing the job.....after all, we're just friends here.

"Hell no, we just finished a million dollar Harley plant and I have no interest whatsoever" he said.

"Cool" I said...."then you won't mind telling me your bid"

"I'm giving a one liner...going in at 45...you go in at 42 you'll probably get it"

I thanked him and he told me no worries....I would probably return the favor in the future.

I then changed my price to 42 grand and made $26,0000.00 I wouldn't otherwise have made if I saw them as "my competition"

If there is any "competition" on this earth that I want to go out of my way to help in any way possible it's this guy.

Good karma is good business.

Rick

[inertia]

Originally Posted by rickanderson

Hey inertia

I'm here to be known and known to be the devastating prince of s-e-o-ology
too hot to handle too bold to hold the professional spammer of the microphone
i graduated from the college of the street
got a phd in how to make ends meet
inflation of the nation wont bother me
cause im a scholar with a dollar you can plainly see

Thanks for the input dude. And nice hip hop site btw

Rick
(former rap artist for the all white rap group Run BMW)

Nice styles Rick! This gives me an idea!! We should have a WPW rap comp? Best Internet themed rap wins!!! Come on people!!!

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by inertia

Nice styles Rick! This gives me an idea!! We should have a WPW rap comp? Best Internet themed rap wins!!! Come on people!!!

hey everybody in the weby pro hood
G search engine on duty better hear me good
inertia b fat tomato katy be flat baloon
sumthin funkys going down better listen to my tune

went in a bar and said what the heck
muther f***** no good red neck
some microsoft dude at the end of the bar
said hey nooby boy do you know where you are?
so nooby pulled out his ick and broke the bartenders glass
and said all you microsofts can kiss my *ss

lol...whatever

Rick

[RichAtVNS]

This thread really needed to be 2 both questions are really interesting...

Just to put a quick 2 cents in on both...

1) Age of website and not changing content...
the number one site in the casting industry (which I am in) has had 2 pages change on it in the last 7 years
Plastercraft.com

They have done no inbound link development in 5 years.
yet for "plaster craft" and "plaster statuary" they have ranked
1 or 2 for years!

I know because I deal with them every week and they don't even have a computer!
The daughter of the owner set up the site 8-10 years ago. LOL
By the way this is a competitive industry with large companies like Dande, & Toscano
with large marketing budgets and small companies spoofing content.

So what does that say about longevity and inbound and outbound links in Google's algorithm.
1st sometimes is best.

---------------------

Now to the second question.

First start by 301 redirect and then build out the other sites on an as need basis.

I have

ArkahdiaArts.com a non-retail site for promotion to show and view product and services.
LowPrice4u.com to retail sell to customers and not interfere with my wholesale customers.
Statues-Columns.com high end retail for large items
and working on AdultDecor.com for the more racey stuff that will be used by mature clientele with discriminating tastes.
and coming soon Walls-Ceilings.com for the Architectural community

All deal with my cast items and services with a different customer base focus.

I'm not trying to dupe Google, MSN, Yahoo.

I'm trying to put the best foot forward to different customer bases.
So micro sites that serve different regions to me sounds like a good strategy.

BUT and thats a big BUT, I would not look for it to stengthen the original domain, that's the key point which actually
work for ImSick's and Incred's reasoning....

Am I now a peacemaker?

By the way for anyone interested we will be at the AVN in Vegas and World Market in Vegas, as well as the Atlanta Gift Mart in Jan. Hope if any of you are in the town stop on by....

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

On a separate issue, may I ask (the moderator) why my previous post was deleted? Are members of this forum not allowed to respond to "contributors" who are rude and offensive to them?

I don't see that any posts have been deleted on this thread. If you feel someone has been rude or offensive, though, it might be best to ask a moderator to deal with it ... we try not to get into flaming here ... thanks!

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by RichAtVNS

This thread really needed to be 2 both questions are really interesting...

Just to put a quick 2 cents in on both...

1) Age of website and not changing content...
the number one site in the casting industry (which I am in) has had 2 pages change on it in the last 7 years
Plastercraft.com

They have done no inbound link development in 5 years.
yet for "plaster craft" and "plaster statuary" they have ranked
1 or 2 for years!

I know because I deal with them every week and they don't even have a computer!
The daughter of the owner set up the site 8-10 years ago. LOL
By the way this is a competitive industry with large companies like Dande, & Toscano
with large marketing budgets and small companies spoofing content.

So what does that say about longevity and inbound and outbound links in Google's algorithm.
1st sometimes is best.

---------------------

Now to the second question.

First start by 301 redirect and then build out the other sites on an as need basis.

I have

ArkahdiaArts.com a non-retail site for promotion to show and view product and services.
LowPrice4u.com to retail sell to customers and not interfere with my wholesale customers.
Statues-Columns.com high end retail for large items
and working on AdultDecor.com for the more racey stuff that will be used by mature clientele with discriminating tastes.
and coming soon Walls-Ceilings.com for the Architectural community

All deal with my cast items and services with a different customer base focus.

I'm not trying to dupe Google, MSN, Yahoo.

I'm trying to put the best foot forward to different customer bases.
So micro sites that serve different regions to me sounds like a good strategy.

BUT and thats a big BUT, I would not look for it to stengthen the original domain, that's the key point which actually
work for ImSick's and Incred's reasoning....

Am I now a peacemaker?

By the way for anyone interested we will be at the AVN in Vegas and World Market in Vegas, as well as the Atlanta Gift Mart in Jan. Hope if any of you are in the town stop on by....

Hey Rich

Thanks for the comment. I'm not trying to dupe Google either. On the contrary, I'm trying to figure out a way to play by their rules. At the end of the day when I have another 8 sites built in 8 neighboring regions for 8 different managers running 8 different business' independant of one another yet part of a larger team (licencing/franchise) AND all with unique content then that should be cool. (I hope)

What would you do personally with the remaining 85 domains purchased whose names are really the top 4-6 searches associated with those 8 areas?

THanks
Rick

[RichAtVNS]

As I stated I would 301 them to your main page of your domain.

If you sent them to a page setup to cater to that area exclusively for each one it might be construed as doorway pages. (which I have heard can get you penalized on some search engines)....

If you want to land on different pages on your website then I would suggest a different subdomain for each page that can link back to the parent and not give it penalty for doorways.

This is what ebay, yahoo, and amazon does for their stores and it does not seem to cause them listing problems.

Now I am not an expert in SEO so please check this out with the other members of this forum, they most certainly have a lot of good knowledge. (thats why I come back here )

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by RichAtVNS

As I stated I would 301 them to your main page of your domain.

If you sent them to a page setup to cater to that area exclusively for each one it might be construed as doorway pages. (which I have heard can get you penalized on some search engines)....

If you want to land on different pages on your website then I would suggest a different subdomain for each page that can link back to the parent and not give it penalty for doorways.

This is what ebay, yahoo, and amazon does for their stores and it does not seem to cause them listing problems.

Now I am not an expert in SEO so please check this out with the other members of this forum, they most certainly have a lot of good knowledge. (thats why I come back here )

Hi Rich

Thanks for the info. Nice site btw (4u)....you sure you have enough items for sale?

Rick

[Kate Lennon]

Originally Posted by rickanderson

Kate

Thanks for the detailed response. I would like to believe what you say is true. I trust that what you say is entirely true as you know it..... I just don't know about the conclusion. Again, it's a correllation causation issue for me. I would love it if I heard more stories like yours....would make my life a lot easier. You're the first person I have ever heard downplay the importance of inbound links I guess is what I'm really trying to say.

Happy to hear about your success though.

Regards
Rick

I'm not claiming that there is no cause/effect relationship between the number of inbound links to a site and its position in search engine results. Obviously the former must have a bearing on the latter, but it is certainly not the direct cause-and-effect relationship that many search engine optimization "experts" claim; nor is it the most important factor. My knowledge of SEO is limited to the information I have picked up from online tutorials, and from forums (fora?) like this one. I try to apply what I know, but really it's all a matter of trial and error. I've been running websites since the mid 90s, so I've had plenty of time to carry out numerous trials (and make even more numerous errors). The conclusion (of sorts) I've come to is that much of the accepted wisdom with regard to search engine optimization is either false, or only true in certain circumstances. The single most important factor, in my opinion, is the domain name itself. This outweighs the importance of inbound links by several magnitudes. A website with a strong domain name, and with a correspondingly strong title, will display at the top of Google, MSN, Yahoo and all the rest even if it has few (or no) links pointing to it from other websites. Others may disagree, but this has been my experience. The domain name and title of a website are at least 90% of the whole ball game in terms of where that site will appear in search results.

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

The domain name and title of a website are at least 90% of the whole ball game in terms of where that site will appear in search results.

I've always thought that to be exceedingly important as well, which is why my company name contains the two most used words for a search in my industry.

Regards
Rick

[RichAtVNS]

Originally Posted by rickanderson

Hi Rich

Thanks for the info. Nice site btw (4u)....you sure you have enough items for sale?

Rick

A little info, many painters and contractors (in both Canada and the US) upsell our crown moldings, ceiling medallions, corbels, half pillars and frame sets to their customers. It helps them distinquish themselves from the common contractors out there. (we even provide them brochures with their own logos to distribute to their customers).

We show at the Traditional Home Building Shows in New Orleans, Boston and Chicago,
are in the Contractors Blue Book in Califronia and New York,
and I was just the 2nd featured company in the Preservation Channel's video Newsletter "the Preservation News".
Take a look:
http://ArkahdiaArts.com/video.htm -- I did it all in one take LOL



You may be actually interested in signing up for our wholesale account and add the information to your site. I of course would put you as a contractor with reciprocal link on ArkahdiaArts.com ....


Just a though

[DrTandem1]

The domain name has virtually no weight in the SERPs. I can cite many examples of sites that are in the top SERPs for their business, yet have no keywords in the domain name. Domain names are for people. Domain names resolve to numbers. The names are used to make it easier for people to remember them.

Many experiments have been done with regards to domain names. Yes, SEs can parse them. However, there is no corelation between a domain name and its placing in the SERPs. Usually, but not always, domain names mirror their content. If domain names were weighted heavily with regards to SERP placement, then you would see more domain names simply containing keywords at the top of the SERPs.

[mjtaylor]

I have to agree with the doc on the domain names; I do believe it can be helpful, but only very slightly.

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

The domain name has virtually no weight in the SERPs. I can cite many examples of sites that are in the top SERPs for their business, yet have no keywords in the domain name. Domain names are for people. Domain names resolve to numbers. The names are used to make it easier for people to remember them.

Many experiments have been done with regards to domain names. Yes, SEs can parse them. However, there is no corelation between a domain name and its placing in the SERPs. Usually, but not always, domain names mirror their content. If domain names were weighted heavily with regards to SERP placement, then you would see more domain names simply containing keywords at the top of the SERPs.

Doc

With all due respect this is fallacious reasoning.... at least the way you state it above. Saying as you have that *because* there are a lot of sites in the top spots of the organics containing no key words...therefore the actual domain name has "virtually no weight" is completely different than someone saying they got to the top spot in the generics due to having a name that is key word rich. I have had a site occupy 6 spots on pg 1 of the organics on name alone. (the fact that is was a developed site probably helped as well ; )

All things being equal on a number of fronts, if I have to go toe-to-toe with your company for organic positioning, it just makes common sense that the name of a company who's name contains the search is a more *accurate* result to the search than a similiar business that lacks key words.

Again, this is assuming that 'all other things are equal' (length of time site has been live, etc )....which may be an impossibility all on its own.....when we factor in the number of variables involved in the algorithm.


Regards
Rick

[rickanderson]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I have to agree with the doc on the domain names; I do believe it can be helpful, but only very slightly.

Hi Mj

You may be saying the same thing as the Doc but yours sounds more motivating. I guess I'm just making a distinction between his "virtually no weight" and your "can be helpful, but only slightly". I *never* have seen the glass as half empty.

In the world of seo, or anything related to business for that matter, I have no interest in things that have virtually no weight since it will never amount to anything but will work day and night for things which are slightly helpful as they inevitably add up to achieving all the desires of ones heart.

Regards
Rick

[DrTandem1]

I don't think my reasoning was "fallacious." It was not misleading or deceitful. The point is this, domain names are for humans. It is quite common for a keyword to be found in a domain, as it makes the domain easier to remember for humans rather than 64.233.167.99 instead of Google.com. By the way, Google doesn't have "search engine" in its domain. The major contributor for increased SERP position is the number of IBLs. On page, I would say the title tag is of great importance.

As for the all things being equal argument, it is also quite possible that an SE may penalize a site for keyword stuffing a domain name.

The key learning point is that the site and its attributes should be focused on the human visitor, not the SE robot. Attempts to manipulate SEs such as Google often are rewarded with penalties rather than long term high rankings in the SERPs.

[rickanderson]

[quote=DrTandem1;352963]I don't think my reasoning was "fallacious." It was not misleading or deceitful"

Dr T

It's misleading to arrive at a conclusion based on an unproven premise. Your premise that *because* some top spots are occupied by business' that contain no key words therefore key words are not important for a domain name is unsubstantiated and in fact fallacious reasoning.

Why would you think that Google wouldn't want to give as a top result for the search "California Plumber" the url www.california plumber dot com?

Surely someone who's business name and url are exactly the same as a top search for their industry has a leg up on the competitor who doesn't.....even if it's a small leg....Ok, how about a foot, no?...

what about a toe?

Regards
Rick

ps

k, a toenail?

[DrTandem1]

[QUOTE=rickanderson;352971]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

I don't think my reasoning was "fallacious." It was not misleading or deceitful"

Dr T

It's misleading to arrive at a conclusion based on an unproven premise. Your premise that *because* some top spots are occupied by business' that contain no key words therefore key words are not important for a domain name is unsubstantiated and in fact fallacious reasoning.

Why would you think that Google wouldn't want to give as a top result for the search "California Plumber" the url www.california plumber dot com?

Surely someone who's business name and url are exactly the same as a top search for their industry has a leg up on the competitor who doesn't.....even if it's a small leg....Ok, how about a foot, no?...

what about a toe?

Regards
Rick

ps

k, a toenail?

Firstly, this is a forum. I am giving an opinion that is backed by an overwhelming amount of observations by me and others over the years. By simply finding one example to the contrary is enough to "prove" the statement that SEs, such as Google, place enough emphasis on the words found in a domain name to propel it to the top of the SERPs is false. Therefore, my statement, which is backed by not simply one example to the contrary, but dozens upon dozens, is true.

The fact that use of a keyword in a domain relates to the site's content is simply commonplace. To assume that a keyword(s) in a domain name will allow that domain name to be at the top of the SERPs for those keywords regardless of content is absurd. Maybe in the dark beginnings of search engines that was true. Just as the keyword meta tag was used in the past. Virtually all agree that the keyword meta tag is of little use and that the domain name is irrelevant to the SERPs.

That being said, apparently some just can't or won't comprehend that a domain name is for humans. In the beginning there were only IP addresses. The purpose of a domain name is to make it easier for the human to manually enter an IP address to visit by means of DNS. Making a lengthy domain name filled with keywords will not only not be a factor in propelling the site to the top of the SERPs, but it will most likely never be entered manually nor even remembered correctly by a human.

Domain names are not an important part of SEO. If it were, only sites with domains made up strictly from keywords would be found crowding the top of the SERPs. They are not. The proper domain name is important, but not for search engines. After all, if someone knows the domain name, they don't need a search engine to find it.

[rickanderson]

[quote=DrTandem1;352985][quote=rickanderson;352971]

"Therefore, my statement, which is backed by not simply one example to the contrary, but dozens upon dozens, is true."

So let's categorize my example as an anomaly? You say "dozens upon dozens" which sounds like a total of 48 ...and how many websites are there...hundreds of millions?

"To assume that a keyword(s) in a domain name will allow that domain name to be at the top of the SERPs for those keywords regardless of content is absurd."

No one has suggested that Dr.

"Virtually all agree that the keyword meta tag is of little use and that the domain name is irrelevant to the SERPs."

Appeal to numbers. Can you provide one single citation to back this statement up?

Regards
Rick

[DrTandem1]

Rick, your original post was asking a question about the weight Google gives to a site that "has been 'live' on the net." You then tell us that your site was live since 2000. You specifically want to know what percentage of that weight Google gives. The answer is no one, except Google, knows. You then tell us that you have 95 domain names for the same industry, "painting" (painting what, we don't know) with different locations in the domain name. You reason that your site(s) will be higher in the SERPs for each location.

You have received plenty of feedback. Most have questioned the wisdom of doing what you say you want to do. There is no reason to reinvent the proverbial wheel. You don't see Subway Sandwiches utilizing a domain for each of their locations, do you? They have a store locator as do most large businesses.

Why you would want to maintain 95 different web sites only you know. Some have tried to explain to you that different hosts would be needed to achieve what you are attempting to do without penalty. Others have also tried to explain to you that domain names do not equate to SERP position.

I now see why you have asked the original question. You are concerned that your new web sites won't fair as well as your established one.

You come here for advice and then attempt to argue using circle logic to defend your beliefs/hopes. When logic fails you, you then attempt to change what your original premises were to negate the negative conclusions that you are not willing to accept. You then try to pick apart arguments looking for specific examples or technicalities, ignoring the dead elephant stinking up the livingroom.

Why stop at 95? Why not have a web site for every community under the sun? Better yet, look up synonyms for painting and create web sites using each for each location. Why not have a million web sites? No, 10 million! Cover the Earth...oh, wait a minute, that's trademarked, isn't it? Maybe you can go for "Cover Google Earth?"

[rumblepup]

The fact that use of a keyword in a domain relates to the site's content is simply commonplace. To assume that a keyword(s) in a domain name will allow that domain name to be at the top of the SERPs for those keywords regardless of content is absurd. Maybe in the dark beginnings of search engines that was true. Just as the keyword meta tag was used in the past. Virtually all agree that the keyword meta tag is of little use and that the domain name is irrelevant to the SERPs.

The domain name WILL NOT get you to the top of the SERP's, but it will GREATLY HELP you achieve rankings. It's not the end all be all of SEO, but certainly a boon if you can have a url with the your main keywords in them.

Why?

If there is currently an emphasis on SE friendly urls, you know, this-is-my-keyword-page, the likes of which this very forum uses, (and I believe Mike knows his SEO) then how can the main url NOT have something to do with SERP position? Don't get me wrong. NOT having keywords in your url isn't the death of your site or your efforts either. Likewise, having your url with keywords isn't a guarantee either.

Firstly, this is a forum. I am giving an opinion that is backed by an overwhelming amount of observations by me and others over the years. By simply finding one example to the contrary is enough to "prove" the statement that SEs, such as Google, place enough emphasis on the words found in a domain name to propel it to the top of the SERPs is false. Therefore, my statement, which is backed by not simply one example to the contrary, but dozens upon dozens, is true.

DrT, you didn't read through rickanderson's statement enough to answer in a meaningfull way. In your defense of your position and statement, you assume that rickanderson said that a domain name is the only factor. He did not. He said,

Surely someone who's business name and url are exactly the same as a top search for their industry has a leg up on the competitor who doesn't.....even if it's a small leg....Ok, how about a foot, no?...

rickanderson, you used the word fallacious, which although it made me laugh, cause it sounds like a fart joke, wasn't really all that fair either. DrT has an opinion, and stated it strongly.

I am assuming, Rick, if that indeed is your name, (wink, wink) that your saying that a website for a company called California Plumbing, which lucked out and got the domain californiaplumbing dot com, and is about that company, and plumbing in california in general, AND that this website has appropriate content, AND has decent offering of authoritative links to it, will have a better shot at it good serp than other websites. My answer is "Yes I think so."

Attempts to manipulate SEs such as Google often are rewarded with penalties rather than long term high rankings in the SERPs.

Yeah, it's called spamming. But a url with a keyword within it is not spamming. In fact, it's recommended by most respected seo's. Not keyword stuffed urls like buy-viagra-online-with-no-money-down-and-see-britney-naked, but within certain bounds, even Matt Cutts suggests them.

DrT, I'm sorry, but I haven't seen you at speaking at SES conferences enough to warrent your complete expertiese on the subject of SEO. I've beaten IBL's. That's personal experience as well.

[DrTandem1]

No, I did read through his posts. The fact that he wants 95 domains for the painting in different locations tells me that domain names are key to his thinking.

I see you still feel IBLs are important, as you have used three of them in your signature. Let's face facts, IBLs are the single most important factor in SERP positioning. They aren't even part of SEO as they do not reside on the site that is supposedly being optimized. Yet, "SEO" businesses include them as they are that important.

I haven't jumped in front of any trains, either. However, I can assure you that it's not a good idea.

By the way, there just so happens to be a domain called californiaplumbing.com. It's not number one for the term California Plumbing. I doubt it's indexed at all in Google. Why? It has lots of plumbing links. It's been registered since 2001. The reason is that there are few, if any IBLs pointing to it and it lacks content. However, according to some here, it should carry some weight in the SERPs. It doesn't.

Are we finished?

[rickanderson]

[quote=DrTandem1;352995]

"Why you would want to maintain 95 different web sites only you know."

Doc, part of the problem is that you really haven't read the entire thread. I never said I wanted to maintain 95 different web sites yet here you are thinking I did.

"I now see why you have asked the original question. You are concerned that your new web sites won't fair as well as your established one."

On the contrary, I hold out hight hopes for the 8-9 new sites that will soon be built as theres plenty of room on the first page of the generics for me to move in and dominate. The reason I asked my original question wasn't out of concern for the new sites at all, I simply wanted an educated guess as to the weight people think Google gives to that factor.

"You come here for advice and then attempt to argue using circle logic to defend your beliefs/hopes. When logic fails you, you then attempt to change what your original premises were to negate the negative conclusions that you are not willing to accept. You then try to pick apart arguments looking for specific examples or technicalities, ignoring the dead elephant stinking up the livingroom."

Thanks for the inaccurate re-cap. What it really sounds like is that you don't want to give a citation for a claim you made. Since "only Google knows" as you put it then you shouldn't be surprised that someone might have the audacity to challenge the evidence and conclusions people arrive at. Or maybe you just feel that *you are exempt from such scrutiny?

"Why not have a million web sites? No, 10 million! Cover the Earth"

Now you're talking my language. I appreciate your attempt to get on my good side.



Regards
Rick

[rumblepup]

Are we finished?

Not by a longshot LOL.

IBL's ARE important. Just the right ones.

IBLs are the single most important factor in SERP positioning

If that where the case, why are sites with 600 IBL's beating sites with 8000 IBL's?

See, I actually went and met with people like Danny Sullivan, Mike McDonald, Rand Fishkin, Lee Odden, Todd Malicoat, Dave Davies, Bill Slawski, Ken Jurina, Curtis Duek, oh, and throw in Matt Cutts, Vanessa Fox, and hang out with two of the best SEO's that I know, Brian Mark and David Brown, and I got to meet a bunch of cool people.

Now, that in no way, shape, or form makes me cool, or even knowledgeable.

It does not make me more important to you, or my opinion any more informed than yours. I readily admit that.

But, it did give me a chance to ask really good SEO's, and industry insiders, some questions, and get the really good inside scoop on a bunch of stuff. One of which was about IBL's, and SEO, and links, and OBL's, and authority, and relative content, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Doesn't make me an expert, but it does give me a unique insite.

Of course I've got some stuff in my sigs. Why not? I never said they where unimportant, just not as important as you think they are.

californiaumbrella.com is a domainers page, with GoDaddy's domainer advertising, of course it's not going to serp, cause Google knows it's a domainer. I know it's a domainer. I'm sure you could tell, no? domainers don't get serps.

I haven't jumped in front of any trains, either. However, I can assure you that it's not a good idea.

Darn, and I was just gonna try that. Damn! You don't let a guy have any fun.

[mjtaylor]

Well, I generally prefer not to send people off the forum, but this survey of SEO experts on ranking factors rates keywords in domains as a moderately important factor - 3 on a scale of 1-5. FWIW.