Webmaster Credit Where Credit is Due

[mjtaylor]

Since I have been designing sites I usually place a site wide link back to my site in the footer. (The exceptions are another topic.) I believe only one link is “credited” PR wise … but I am wondering whether it would be a stronger move, SEO-wise, to only link back from the home page.

What do you do with client sites?

Do you think a home page only link would be an advantage, SEO wise?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Since I have been designing sites I usually place a site wide link back to my site in the footer. (The exceptions are another topic.) I believe only one link is “credited” PR wise … but I am wondering whether it would be a stronger move, SEO-wise, to only link back from the home page.

What do you do with client sites?

Do you think a home page only link would be an advantage, SEO wise?

1. This practice is old school and unethical.
2. If you still do that, how can you have profit SEOwise when your clients sites are irrelevant to you theme?

[holmpage]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

1. This practice is old school and unethical.
2. If you still do that, how can you have profit SEOwise when your clients sites are irrelevant to you theme?

SEO isn't the only consideration. I get a large amount of my business from the unobtrusive links (usually site-wide) I put on websites I build. Often prospects mention a feature that I put on another website that they would like on theirs. Clients who come to me that way tend to be sold on my services already. Those links are worth gold. If I didn't have them, I don't think I'd have a business.

Likewise, I often check out my competition the same way. I don't think it's unethical; it's rather like an artist signing a painting or an author having their name on their book. It's essential to me.

[Webnauts]

Let me be more specific:

1. Google clearly states: "It is not only the number of links you have pointing to your site that matters, but also the quality and relevance of those links." Webmaster Help Center - Link schemes

Are your clients web designers? SEOs? In other words, are their sites relevant to your site's theme? If not you are asking for trouble. You can avoid that trouble if in those links the "nofollow" attribute is implemented.

2. It is maybe not unethical, if you do not require that. But anyway I did that once, but never again. Some years ago, a client screwed their site I made, and they still had my link on it. That sucked! I had to hire an attorney to convince them to get rid of my link. Are you sure that your signature would be worth there? Me not!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I believe only one link is “credited” PR wise …

PR wise? Irrelevant to your site theme IBL?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by holmpage

SEO isn't the only consideration.

The original poster asked SEO wise.

[halfmexi]

Maybe not unethical, but unwise...?

Some corporate sites do not want you to put a credit link on their site, others have preferred you put it in their 'links' section (if they have one). Ask the client first... it is their site and they are paying for a presence and may not want your ad - no matter how unobtrusive.

I always put credits in hidden tags in my coded pages and like Webnauts I too have a couple sites floating around still giving me credit from 6 or 7 years ago, the sites are a total mess and embarrassing disaster, unfortunately I am still credited for these nightmare sites taken over by employees or family members!

A pleased client will refer you, you don't need the free ad, especially when it turns around and bites you years later.

BIL

[Orion]

I get about 80% of my design and SEO work via those small links on the bottoms of sites. Some are more relevant than others of course, many are not relevant. They do not give me as much benefit SEO-wise but they do give some.

I always do it with the clients consent, if they don't want the link their I'll remove it (extremely rare I think I've only had about 5 clients sites out of about 800 where I haven't linked back).

I do the links site wide as I add them in the footer and I use SSI for almost all my sites.

When a client leaves me or the site is redesigned I always remove or edit the link.

Also I make sure the link text is unobtrusive and specific to the job.. ie. web design by: orionsweb.net or hosted by owhosting.com etc. sometimes I don't link them and just put the text also.

[Webnauts]

Ron did you read my post above? Webmaster Credit Where Credit is Due

[mtuba4u]

Every inbound link carries a score with it....!!!!!!

Some is positive and some is negative...!!!

you need to evaluate the sites relevance and target market.

avoid those that have PORN, Hate speach etc...

Buy you as the designer should know what type of site you are building...

At the end of the day this is a very debateable subject, as we do not actualt have the Search engine algorythm...

so the trick is to be selective where you place your links, but if you do place links on a site, the more the merrier, as long as you do not exceed 10 (this is not exact, but this is the number that affected me before on a small test.) links per page

one link per page as you describe is a great plus on sites that you have approved, but like Webnaughts says what hapens when the client changes his tactics and starts placing spamy stuff within his / her pages?

at this point you will begin to get negative Juice from the links on this site, and these negative points have a huge impact very fasrt. so you do need top be careful, and do not treat all with the same ointment, as each ailment needs its own remidie.

[mtuba4u]

After reading these posts again it is evident that the SEO theme was lost or side stepped by some.

Be careful where you place your links, as links to sites that dio not follow your site theme or contain some of the words in your key word base set may often carry negitve juice which will cause great losses as this is implemented in a large algorythm which is re-itterated many times untill it reaches a limmit at which point your scores are alocated.

this means any negative "juice" is a real problem which needs to be avoided at all costs

so be aware of where you place your links, and where you send that link to,

By designing a single page within your own site that has a similar key word base set to the theme of the designed site, and having the link go to this page, you will do a lot better if you do reaaly want to place a link in the footer of your clients page.

You can cross link this page and even refer back to the designed site in different areas, which will help both your pages and your clients pages. this does however need very carefull evaluation of the clients site, and the make up of your site.

You may need to include such a page for more than one client for the search engine to notice this, but you do need to be very careful of negative "JUICE" as some times it is hard to find the right remidie, and your own internal page link value will drop rather fast once you start to get any negative "JUICE"

bottom line is be careful where you place your inbound links.

[joewattie]

I'm not saying I'm right but, in general, as a business customer, client and user I think an "Ad" looks cheesy and unprofessional.

[inertia]

When i started at my current company their policy was to add site wide links in the footer of every site we marketed/designed. The only problem was that they used the same link text on every page of every site and they all linked back to our home page.

This did help build a decent PR on the home page but now we are absolutely nowhere to be seen for the link text used, and i mean nowhere! I reviewed this practice about 12 months ago and told everyone not to do it as I'm sure it has led to our poor site performance. We now add one link on the home page, if the client gives us permission, and we make sure to change the keyword regularly. I don't see any problem with this as it brings us business (admittedly not much, but its better than a slap in the face) and its free advertising.

I always thought that if you had a link on an irrelevant site that it didn't do you any harm, it just didn't do you much good. Now i am thinking that if you have thousands of irrelevant links, especially site wide, that this is BAAAD! Who agrees?

[Clarrie]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Since I have been designing sites I usually place a site wide link back to my site in the footer. (The exceptions are another topic.) I believe only one link is “credited” PR wise … but I am wondering whether it would be a stronger move, SEO-wise, to only link back from the home page.

What do you do with client sites?

Do you think a home page only link would be an advantage, SEO wise?

We put a link on the footer of all the sites we build which appears on all pages - with client permission.

I have no problem with this ethically - if I was a car manufacturer, I'd put a badge on the front and back of every car. No different in my view.

And I don't have a problem with it from an SEO point of view either - because I'm building for our client, (and us), not the search engines (see Google Webmaster guidelines!). All the search engines recognise this practice and adjust for it - think link filters!

I get site traffic, and business from these links, but I don't get any ranking benefit, because the search engines will only credit 1 IBL from a domain, and if our client site isn't about online marketing or web site design even that gets filtered.

Over the last couple of years I have not seen any positive or negative affect as a result from our growing list of IBLs from client sites.

[ArthurKay]

My two cents...

I don't think ONLY having your link on the client's homepage will be better for SEO, PR, or anything having to do with the engines.

The purpose of SEO is to bring in business (or at least money). I'd say a good number of my company's clients found us by that footer link or were referred to us by the client. Removing links from the interior pages might have some small effect on your rankings, but it would decrease traffic to your site.

What's my point? Fewer "less relevant" links might help your ranking some tiny amount (emphasis on might), but traffic to your site would probably decrease - which is bad for business.

Google/Yahoo/MSN might not care about those links anyways... they're probably all in the supplemental index. If some doomsday senario happened and the SERPs went down, how would you get traffic to your site?

The links in the footer of your clients' websites drive traffic - which is every bit as valuable as a top search ranking.

[mjtaylor]

I do appreciate all your posts - and especially the responses that speak directly to the question of whether a site wide link is more or less effective, PR-wise, than a home page only.

Of course I have gotten many clients from those links, and even more leads that I have to turn down as competitors find my client sites high in SERPs and want the same 'magic.'

I don't agree that it's an unethical practice or irrelevant. There can be nothing ethically wrong with receiving credit for my work when a client has agreed to it. And a no follow would not be appropriate; the link is not paid. It *is* a vote of gratitude from a client to the contractor. No different than credits on movies, in a book, or anywhere else where a designer or author has worked on a project and the credit is part of the arrangement.

On relevance: I have no doubt that search engines know that a link to a web designer or SEO in the footer is directly related to the design or optimization of the site. Nothing could be more relevant. It's a sample of work done in one's field! That's like saying a signature on a painting isn't relevant.

As to the link that remains after to haunt me ... for the relatively few clients who have left, I have usually removed the link before I relinquished control over the site. With the few I haven't, I haven't had any sort of issue like that in 10 years in the business. Just not the sort of thing I attract, I guess.

I still wonder, PR-wise, whether a home page only link would be stronger. My interest is more academic than likely to become practical. I really don't have time to go back and change them all anyway, but I do think this is an interesting question and look forward to hearing more from other designers and SEOs on this.

Thanks to all, MJ

[bj]

It's not too often I disagree with Webnauts. But this time is one of them.

I design for primarily small businesses and non-profits. Maybe if I was working on huge sites for corporations, with their correspondingly huge price tags I wouldn't need or want to do this, but I see no issue with this as long as the client doesn't care. And not one of my clients has ever said he or she doesn't want the link there. And those links do bring me business, so even if they hurt a bit on PR I'd still use them. They're directly relevant to what I do, and yes, they're just like an artist's signature.

I don't think they hurt at all. Yes, it would be better to have links from other web design sites but hey, I don't know a single competitor who wants to link to me. Do you?

I think those footer links are probably not as strong as other links but I do think they have value in the scheme of things. Re homepage only, I doubt it matters, but that's just a gut reaction and I have nothing to back it up with. The one way it might matter is if you only have a link on the homepage and the person who likes the site comes in through another page and doesn't find your link in the footer or sidebar, and you've just lost an opportunity to snag a qualified visitor.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by bj

...but hey, I don't know a single competitor who wants to link to me. Do you?

ya I'll take a couple too please... =o)

[kgun]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I do appreciate all your posts - and especially the responses that speak directly to the question of whether a site wide link is more or less effective, PR-wise, than a home page only.

Of course I have gotten many clients from those links, and even more leads that I have to turn down as competitors find my client sites high in SERPs and want the same 'magic.'

I don't agree that it's an unethical practice or irrelevant. There can be nothing ethically wrong with receiving credit for my work when a client has agreed to it. And a no follow would not be appropriate; the link is not paid. It *is* a vote of gratitude from a client to the contractor. No different than credits on movies, in a book, or anywhere else where a designer or author has worked on a project and the credit is part of the arrangement.

On relevance: I have no doubt that search engines know that a link to a web designer or SEO in the footer is directly related to the design or optimization of the site. Nothing could be more relevant. It's a sample of work done in one's field! That's like saying a signature on a painting isn't relevant.

As to the link that remains after to haunt me ... for the relatively few clients who have left, I have usually removed the link before I relinquished control over the site. With the few I haven't, I haven't had any sort of issue like that in 10 years in the business. Just not the sort of thing I attract, I guess.

I still wonder, PR-wise, whether a home page only link would be stronger. My interest is more academic than likely to become practical. I really don't have time to go back and change them all anyway, but I do think this is an interesting question and look forward to hearing more from other designers and SEOs on this.

Thanks to all, MJ

First of all, as an economist, I will say incorporate that in the price you take. I made one site for a friend and asked myself, shall I link to my page. I decided not to do, may be because the site was so bad

John is a semantic guru (fanatic). Semantic tagging, sematic linkink and contributing to building a science of the Web.

Nevertheless there is at least two arguments for a link:

1. On pages related (semantic link) to your pages.
2. Surfers looking for a web designer, get a direct impression of your abilities.

Again <div id="designedBy" ... /> or <div class="designedBy" ... /> should be part of the HTML tag attributes and reckognized by the SE's as such.

[bj]

Again <div id="designedBy" ... /> or <div class="designedBy" ... /> should be part of the HTML tag attributes and reckognized by the SE's as such.

Could it be time for me to disagree with another person I usually agree with?

If you mean by this that SEs should discount the links entirely that are marked in this way, I think that's unfair. If I design more sites and have more links pointing at my site because of that, I should get some sort of benefit, whether it be from the link itself or from what little PR accrues from a footer link. The number of those links, coupled with the site's appearance and functioning, has a direct correlation with my experience and authority as a web designer. Would you rather hire someone with two sites in his or her portfolio? Or a few hundred?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by bj

If you mean by this that SEs should discount the links entirely that are marked in this way, I think that's unfair.

My bolding.

But the SE don't care about what you and I think is fair. They are looking for the best content.

Originally Posted by bj

If I design more sites and have more links pointing at my site because of that, I should get some sort of benefit, whether it be from the link itself or from what little PR accrues from a footer link.

In a sense that can be compared to a webmaster crosslinking his site from different domains and subdoamins. It can even be considered worse IMO if the link is irrelevant (You can ask what is a irrelevant link in this regard? Again, the KW is content).

Originally Posted by bj

The number of those links, coupled with the site's appearance and functioning, has a direct correlation with my experience and authority as a web designer.

My bolding. Agree, there is most probably a positive correlation.

Originally Posted by bj

Would you rather hire someone with two sites in his or her portfolio? Or a few hundred?

Price / Quality would be my preferred measure.

[Webnauts]

Kgun I guess you should it give up here. I am sure that many here do not know what you are talking about, or do not want to know. We both know the meaning of Semantic Web stuff, i.e DC meta data, microformats, XFN, etc. and how SE and major social media bookmarking networks deal with them already.

Sidenote: Yahoo since June 2006 support the hc microformats in the local search since June 2006!!! More: Yahoo! Local & Maps Blog » Blog Archive » We Now Support Microformats

Also Google Maps too: Official Google Maps API Blog: Microformats in Google Maps

So lets give this up here, and I would suggest you to start another thread, before we will be blamed that we are hijacking the thread. I would like to have a thorough discussion about these issues if you don't mind.

Please PM me if you start the thread.

Thanks,

John

[dharrison]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Since I have been designing sites I usually place a site wide link back to my site in the footer. (The exceptions are another topic.) I believe only one link is “credited” PR wise … but I am wondering whether it would be a stronger move, SEO-wise, to only link back from the home page.

I still do add my link even after 7 years of web design but also only to the home page (unless otherwise instructed).

I agree with John: It is old school and adds no value whatsoever - but if someone thinks "Wo, that website is good, who made it? The answer is at the page they are most likely to visit.

I had 3 people visiting their "friend's" site last year who asked who their web designer was. I have also had the same experience with my clients competitors (that likes their site and wants me to design their site also). Ethics which has been more than debated on this site I believe.

I would put my link on every page I design, but it just seems a bit - dare I say it - greedy and a bit naff.

[Webnauts]

If I did not miss something, this thread is in the search engine optimization forum. Right?

Was the question if SEOwise it would be a good idea to add links to your site on your customers sites?

Then I will stick to the SEO perspective.

Google states on their page here Webmaster Help Center - What's an SEO? Does Google recommend working with companies that offer to make my site Google-friendly? the following:

You should never have to link to an SEO.

Avoid SEOs that talk about the power of "free-for-all" links, link popularity schemes, or submitting your site to thousands of search engines. These are typically useless exercises that don't affect your ranking in the results of the major search engines -- at least, not in a way you would likely consider to be positive.

I could forgive web designers doing that if they were not aware of the SE rules. But not SEOs claiming to be professionals... or even better ethical professionals.

If you honestly want to have a link to your site only for promotion or as a signature for you Art, I would see that as fair and ethical and overall professional, if you would also add in the link the "nofollow" attribute.

Will you do that? Allow me not to believe that you would.

Just my ... you know what.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

If I did not miss something, this thread is in the search engine optimization forum. Right?

I also noted that.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

If you honestly want to have a link to your site only for promotion or as a signature for you Art, I would see that as fair and ethical and overall professional, if you would also add in the link the "nofollow" attribute.

Agree. That is better than my id and class proposal.

[incrediblehelp]

Didnt read all the posts here, but just like to say clients should never have to add link to a design or SEO companies website.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Didnt read all the posts here, but just like to say clients should never have to add link to a design or SEO companies website.

No one *has* to link to me, but I often ask for it. Among those I haven't asked, most have later offered it without prompting. I don't always take it as I often prefer to give their site the boost of an unreciprocated link from mine. In any case, my clients link back to me because they appreciate me, so, I do see that as a vote of confidence and I don't see why a no-follow would be appropriate.

I would still like to know whether a link from a home page would be preferable, SEO/PR wise, than site wide links. I am less interested in whether we agree it's ethical or not. We can agree to disagree on that point. (Please.)

Let's put it a different way: if someone offered you a footer link from 20 sites (all relevant, all quality) and you could have a home page link or site wide links, including home page, which do you think would be better for the receiving site in terms of SEO and PR?

Thanks, MJ

[incrediblehelp]

I would consider doing something else like a banner ad or image ad on the website, if they currently offer that type of advertising.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Let's put it a different way: if someone offered you a footer link from 20 sites (all relevant, all quality) and you could have a home page link or site wide links, including home page, which do you think would be better for the receiving site in terms of SEO and PR?

My bolding.

My more or less unqualified guessing.

Assumption: No SE penalty for the sitewide link.

In terms of SEO and PR? That is worse, since there may be conflicts.

SEO.
There is a direct and an indirect effect. Since the indirect effect would be much larger for a sitewide link, I would personally prefer a sitewide link.

PR.
But if your preference is for a high pagerank to the homepage, there may be a tradeoff, since a unique link to the home page will concentrate the linkvote to the homepage.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I would consider doing something else like a banner ad or image ad on the website, if they currently offer that type of advertising.

Jaan, isn't you a hockey player. Where is the goal?

[Webnauts]

MJ I think you better look what other experts think about this:
Open For Discussion: Site Wide Links: Do They Help or Hurt?

and maybe this too:
Is there any conclusion with sitewides - Cre8asite Forums

And Rand Fischkin says: Turn off or cease buying sitewide style links - these are estimated to hurt a site's rankings.
SEOmoz | The Sandbox, the March Filter & BLOOD vs. TLD

Just to be objective...

[incrediblehelp]

Yeah I play hockey, but I am goalie kgun, lol.

[kgun]

John, but she is looking for the wizard from Oz, since the links are all relevant, all quality.

Pointing where is a natural follow up question ...

From mathematics, I learned, don't discuss definitions.

From economics, I learned, don't discuss assumptions.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I don't always take it as I often prefer to give their site the boost of an unreciprocated link from mine.

Heh? Giving their site a boost? Are they relevant to web design or SEO? Now I guess I am seriously missing something.

By the way did you read my post about what Google thinks about that?

[Webnauts]

More info: Site Wide Links Help or Hurt Linking Campaign?

MJ, Aaron Wall has a good answer to you question, since my expertise and credibility is not credited here at WPW:

Site Wide Links? : SEO Book.com

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by dharrison

I would put my link on every page I design, but it just seems a bit - dare I say it - greedy and a bit naff.

LOL! I haven't heard the word 'naff' in a long time.

Webnauts: those links were very helpful. And your opinion is highly valued here -- at least by me (And I know by many others), even when we disagree. I still appreciate the process and what I learn. In this case, I am not sure you have actually expressed an opinion on my question; you simply said it was wrong to do it, and that's okay. I see your point, even though I disagree. I do a lot of SEO for a ad agency and neither they nor I get credit on those sites ... just an old school ad agency point of view.

But back to my question. I do have site wide links on a lot of sites. And I have been thinking that since site wides are not particularly helpful, perhaps it would be worthwhile to remove all the links except the home page. Having home page only links might be a boost PR wise.

That's what I was really trying to decide.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Heh? Giving their site a boost? Are they relevant to web design or SEO? Now I guess I am seriously missing something.

My site and the sites in question are relevant to Key West and the Florida Keys, yes. It works.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

By the way did you read my post about what Google thinks about that?

Read that when it came out ...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

But back to my question. I do have site wide links on a lot of sites. And I have been thinking that since site wides are not particularly helpful, perhaps it would be worthwhile to remove all the links except the home page. Having home page only links might be a boost PR wise.

That's what I was really trying to decide.

1. Site wide links do not count more than one.
2. Sitewide links can trigger "Paid Links" filters. Depends where they are placed on the page(s), or if the site linking to you is irrelevant to your site theme.
3. If you still want to have one, you better have only on the homepage.
4. If the site linking to you is irrelevant to you site theme, may give you a so minimal PR boost, which it is not worth to take the risk.

Did I answer the question now?

[mjtaylor]

Yes, you said home page is better than site wide ... which is what I am guessing ...

Thank you, John.

MJ

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

My site and the sites in question are relevant to Key West and the Florida Keys, yes. It works.

If I remember Florida Keys is real estate? If your client are also from the real estate field then I do not really see any problem with that. But still consider my notes in my previous post.

[mjtaylor]

Will consider all your notes, thank you ...

There is real estate in the Florida Keys ... and in Key West ... and there are also a lot of tourist attractions and vacation homes ... and I have sites of all those types ...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Yes, you said home page is better than site wide ... which is what I am guessing ...

Thank you, John.

MJ

AMEN.

[ronchalice]

If you browse the supermarket chances are good that the boxes of toothpaste will carry the brand (trade) name of the manufacturer as well as the brand name of the product -- ok, as well as where it's manufactured -- but then again, I don't suppose we'll get ethylene glycol poisining from browsing a shelf full of web pages.