Meta keywords, descriptions and search engines

[allthingsyou]

I was wondering the importance of every individual page having meta keyword and description tags, such as, each section, each sub-section, and especially every individual product page.

I have noticed, when examining referring traffic, that Google is giving some search keywords and phrases top 10 placement. What I am confused about is the fact that these keywords and phrases are not my meta keywords or descriptions and Google lands them on my home page even though the place that these words appear are on another section page.

This makes me wonder if I should enter meta keywords and description tags for each individual product as I have done for each section already or should I concentrate on the 1,450 indexed pages and only enter the tags there?

One more thing. Yahoo has given me only 2 pages and I have dropped completely from MSN where I had over a 1000 pages, but did here MSN/Live is having issues.

New to SEO and trying to learn..........

Thank you
Gary
Collectibles, gifts, home decor, memorabilia, western. Compare shop save!

[Dubbya]

Google ignores the keywords Meta tag, however you should keep them for the other engines.

Your Meta description in quite important as it tips off the SE's as to the focus and content of the page.

Without a doubt, each and every page should have a somewhat unique description and title.

Bear in mind that Google scans your page content, including the page title, headings, bolded text, alt, title atributes and text links to determine the actual content and focus of the page. This is where their uber-secret algorithms come into play.

If you're just getting started, you really should check out some of the SEO guides.

http://www.webproworld.com/search-en...o-i-begin.html
All you need for Search Engine Optimization (SEO)

[allthingsyou]

Thank you for the reply.

I wonder if this is the reason my indexed pages dropped on Yahoo as the individual product pages have no description? That would explain Google's action (having a different way of crawling).

Well looks like I have a couple of thousand pages to edit.............




Thanks again

Gary
Http://store.allthingsyou.com

[weslinda]

Yahoo is going towards using keywords more than they have in the past. For Yahoo, unique and on target keywords is a solid idea.

I recently reworked an FAQ area where there were not unique titles, descriptions, and keywords for over 1000 pages.

Within three weeks of our change in that section, our traffic has easily doubled in that section if not tripled. It has made a huge difference.

[fathom]

All Meta Tags are worthless.

Meta Description is the grand master of uselessness. It is an illusion that most people in general and many experience SEOs fall for.

Have a read of this - from an experienced SEO... Capturing the click through compelling meta descriptions | Searchlight - An SEO blog by Stephan Spencer - CNET Blogs

Quite a logical and impressive deminstration of Meta Descriptions effectiveness [or so you would think]... but doing your own reasearch shows something totally different.

The advice suggested in the article is not just misguided it's not even accurate. The author never even looked to see if there was a Meta Description (he only assumed there wasn't a Meta Description because the available description sucks for the search phrase queries) and as such the author is totally uneducated about "the value and limitations of both snippets and Meta Descriptions"... you just can't trust a Meta Description to be the prefect representative for your domain.

The page in the article has a Meta Description namely <meta name="description" content="Gmail's good but it could be better We've featured several Greasemonkey scripts that enhance Gmail in lots of different ways - like adding saved searches attachment icons label" />

Unfortunately the query for the search snapshot was Lifehacker Firefox extension... and since the Meta Description does not contain the words "Lifehacker" or "Firefox" or "extension"... the snippet still appears by default... which actually shows the reverse claim of what the author claims.

Because a Meta Description can only contain about 150 characters you are extremely limited by it use and if you don't appreciate the complex problems associated with page layout you can do more harm than good absolutely relying on Meta Description to be the appealing reference... If you "fix a page's layout problems your snippets will be equal to any targetted Meta Description and moreover it will cover a complete swath of potential queries rather than only covering your more targeted term.

NOTES: Since the article was written (well posted) on August 20, 2007 11:31 PM PDT and the cache shows a recent date I checked archive.org to make sure the Meta Description was on the page prior to the article post date... it was July 5...

Lifehacker Code: Better Gmail (Firefox extension) - Lifehacker

Ther best advice is avoid using Metas PERIOD! ...they don't help with ranks and they do cause you to feel too secure in how your listings appeals to searchers.

[weslinda]

Get your facts straight, as a starter of this discussion, both Yahoo and Ask do use Meta Keywords as a part of their ranking, so they are not worthless tags, just need to be used with proper caution.

And I've used the meta description with great success on some larger sites that I work with.

Don't spew things out of your mouth if you are unsure of their truth in totality.

[weslinda]

Oh...and if you care to read a more definitive source, the Google blog discusses using Meta Descriptions for conversions.

Enjoy the read. Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Improve snippets with a meta description makeover

[PosterManiac]

Meta tags are not useful anymore to Google. But they still are to some extent to Yahoo.

[cass-hacks]

For what it's worth, I recently removed all the description meta tags, except for some code pages which have nothing on them except HTML/CSS/Javascript code, and saw no changes in any of the 4 main engines, Google, Yahoo, Live Search and Ask.

Previously, I had periodically edited each meta description tag to include search terms that people were actually searching for and it didn't effect the positions of any of the pages in any of the search engines for those terms.

That said, you wrote :

Originally Posted by allthingsyou

What I am confused about is the fact that these keywords and phrases are not my meta keywords or descriptions and Google lands them on my home page even though the place that these words appear are on another section page.

Are you saying the following :
1. For a search that you thought would be better served by page X, Google selected page Y?
2. The snippet that Google displayed came from a). the content of the page you thought should have been selected but wasn't, or b). the meta tags from the page you thought should have been selected?

In general, search engines select the text for display in the SERPs (Search Engine Result Page) based on either a). the description meta-tag content for the page, b). a combination of the search terms used and the actual content on the page, c). a description from a trusted directory such as DMOZ or Yahoo directory.

More often than not though the snippet is a combination of the search terms and the on page content so that the one doing the search can have a better idea of what a given page may have on it that is relevant.

In any event though, search engines decide for themselves what to display and when.

[astro]

Originally Posted by fathom

All Meta Tags are worthless.

Meta Description is the grand master of uselessness. It is an illusion that most people in general and many experience SEOs fall for.

Interesting, and it explains something. Recently I launched a new site without meta tags or alt tags as I did not want the site listed anywhere until it was totally finished, but I had to put the site up for others to read and contribute material. It got listed within days.

That said, I am not convinced meta tags are useless or out of date. I do think PR rankings are a smoke screen and not very relative to search engine position. All my sites recently took a plunge in PR but all remain in top 10 for their search results, some improved their position.

</astro>

[Dubbya]

No one here recommends that anyone rely solely on meta tags or any other single page element.

I'm sure most would agree that effective SEO involves striking a balance between a plethora of contributing factors, both onpage and off, some of which include:

• Relevant page titles
• A well formatted and relevant meta description
• Relevant and targeted meta keywords
• Keyword-rich link text
• Descriptive alt and title atributes on images
• Relevant paragraph headings
• Inbound links from relevant and related sources
• Well written and relevant content
• Clean, lean and accessible code
• Fast loading pages
• Sustained traffic

Fathom, if you're getting great results in the SERPs across ALL the popular SE's without using meta tags, then good for you.

Congratulations, you're smarter than me.

.02

[spronger]

Originally Posted by Dubbya

No one here recommends that anyone rely solely on meta tags or any other single page element.

Dubbya is right. Meta tags are just part of a big picture. Their effectiveness, from an SEO perpective, largely depends on the market you are in, the search expressions you are targeting and the level of competion. Examples can be found which support arguments for and against their effectiveness, but it really is pointless because there are so many variables.

I once removed the meta keywords tag from my home page. Made no difference to my rankings at all. But that's for my cirumstances and for keywords which are quite competitive. The point is this, it takes a few minutes of your time to add them when building your site. So add your keywords, add a compelling keyword-focussed description, and move on. If you already have thousands of pages, which don't have tags, then that's a big time committment. I honestly wouldn't bother. Your time is better spent on the rest of the picture.

[brucet]

The meta keywords tag is worthless for Google. The key things for optimization are the title tag, the body text of the page, and the quality of your inbound links.

The meta description is very important, but for a different reason. It is your opportunity to control the description of the page that search engines display to their users. But you need to know how to force it to appear.

1) If you have an entry in the search engine's directory (Open Directory for Google, Yahoo Directory for Yahoo), the search engine may choose to show the description from that entry in your listing. To prevent this, include these tags in your page <Head> section:

<META name="ROBOTS" content="NOYDIR">
<META name="ROBOTS" content="NOODP">

2) If the keywords appear in the meta description, the description will appear in the listing with the keywords in bold

3) If the keywords are not in the description, the search engine will display the first chunk of text containing the keywords that it finds on the page. This may or may not be a complete sentence, and it may or may not make sense.

These are all rules of thumb but they work out most of the time. So to maximize clickthroughs, each page you optimize should have a meta description that is a meaningful sentence describing the content of the page, and containing the words / phrases you are optimizing for.

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Get your facts straight, as a starter of this discussion, both Yahoo and Ask do use Meta Keywords as a part of their ranking, so they are not worthless tags, just need to be used with proper caution.

And I've used the meta description with great success on some larger sites that I work with.

Don't spew things out of your mouth if you are unsure of their truth in totality.

Very same here, and google has even picked up my meta description for use for some of my keywords so, i don't know WHAT the heck anyone's talking about.

[weslinda]

Of course, one thing not really shared here is that these are only parts to a larger puzzle and most people try and create a black and white, only this or only that environment, and that simply isn't true.

Pieces to a larger puzzle, people must acknowledge that.

[Veikoh]

1. Sure you should have little bit different Title and Meta's for each page, relevant to particular page contex;
2. Disagree, that Google ignores Meta Description tag. At least I got a site highly ranked with a key phrase "portal information technology" only using it on Meta description tag and nowhere else.

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by allthingsyou

I have noticed, when examining referring traffic, that Google is giving some search keywords and phrases top 10 placement. What I am confused about is the fact that these keywords and phrases are not my meta keywords or descriptions and Google lands them on my home page even though the place that these words appear are on another section page.

Are these keywords in your page content? Are they being used in the anchor text when people link to you?

[Seminole386]

Historically Google ignores Meta Tags while Yahoo and MS use them. Recently it appears Google is looking at them and MS has stopped. I sell real estate so I don't want lots of traffic, just good solid traffic. I concentrated on Yahoo because I could control my ranking. About three weeks ago I started ranking 4th or better on Google. I would encourage you to add Meta Tags. They don't hurt you and from time to time help.

[allthingsyou]

"Are these keywords in your page content? Are they being used in the anchor text when people link to you?"

Thanks for your reply,

Some of the keywords and some, but not all, of keyword phrases are indeed exact matches in the description content but not all. A small percentage have only a single word of a search phrase in the description and then another in the meta keyword tags. That is why I was confused a bit about Google no longer using meta keyword tags.

As far as anchor text approximately only 10% of the individual keywords appear, but no phrases..

I wonder if Google's new "search paradigm" calculates all the above factors and possibly even other descriptive and title text within a specific category/section of a potential result to factor relevancy for a search?

My main question that I had from this thread was if EVERY individual product page, not just section pages should have meta descriptions/keyword tags or if that is considered a waste of time. An earlier reply stated that this was important for other search engines other than Google and again another reply that stated this was of little importance.

Thanks
Gary
Collectibles, gifts, home decor, memorabilia, western. Compare shop save!

[incrediblehelp]

I like to add description tags to each page

[fathom]

Originally Posted by brucet

If the keywords are not in the description, the search engine will display the first chunk of text containing the keywords that it finds on the page. This may or may not be a complete sentence, and it may or may not make sense.

If you don't have any page layout issues the snippet will show equally acceptable as your superbly wrtten copy on the page itself that is avaliable to visitors.

For those that hold out hope for ranking help in Yahoo & Ask - Meta Tags are far from the level of help you get from Links & Title Elements -- A likened analogy:

An ant (likened to a Meta Tag) can lift 100 times its body weight but I wouldn't except you'll get the help you need pushing your car up a hill -- even if 100 of his friends were helping.... if 10 of your friends helped (likened to links) I'm sure your car would be at the top of the hill in no time... but seriously not because you had help from 100 ant friends... please give credit appropriately.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by brucet

These are all rules of thumb but they work out most of the time. So to maximize clickthroughs, each page you optimize should have a meta description that is a meaningful sentence describing the content of the page, and containing the words / phrases you are optimizing for.

How much of a impact is created? -- "maximized clickthroughs"... that's what validates this claim...

In all my years of doing SEO - I proved or disproved every claim for myself - with a few exceptions and this is one because there is no proof, not even good circumstantial proof.

Speculation on whether things are true IS NOT SEO ADVICE... it's a guess and the thing about guesses you should add a disclaimer - "don't trust my advice - prove it for yourself".

...there is absolutely no evidence to support that a Meta Description IMPROVES anything - in fact I have good circumstantial evidence that suggests Meta Descriptions reduces click-through potential... surely the previously note article was based on a longtail query of Lifehacker Firefox extension and not a primary search term and because the words were not included in the Meta it didn't show for it... \

It is "proven" that most pages get 40-60% of the generate traffic from longtail queries -- which suggest 40 -60% of your searchers "that clicked" didn't see a Meta Description... so how many searchers "jumped over you" because you didn't fix any page layout problems (which is the only problem snippets have)... fix the actual problems - no more problem... cover it up - and 40-60% of your searchers still see the same problem - just you don't.

[cw1865]

When people are legitimately searching for things on the internet, the behavior has some similarities to shopping for a book in a book store. At first glance it may not seem to be the most apt description. When you go to a book store intent on buying a book to read of a specific genre, you go to that section. The first thing that appeals to you is the title, then the cover; while there you don't have time to read the entire book, you can inspect the jacket which may have some positive critical review to pique your interest.

The same is true from search queries. The organic listings prominently display the title tag and below that the description tag. Why wouldn't you want to fill this field with an appropriate description? Unless you're operating an adsense site and are just hoping for a click thru for revenue, you really have to take the position that the person not clicking thru for that reason wouldn't be interested in your site anyway.

At the end of the day, the meta description is still an element on your page. It also happens to be an element that you have 100% control over.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Oh...and if you care to read a more definitive source, the Google blog discusses using Meta Descriptions for conversions.

Enjoy the read. Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Improve snippets with a meta description makeover

Nice piece of literature... where is the empirical evidence that shows how this actually improves ranks or actually improves click-throughs? I don't spew things out of my mouth that I'm unsure of their truth in totality... I want you to show the empirical evidence that supports how meta descriptions actually created great success with your larger sites. Google's statement doesn't support your claim all it does is suggest if you are unhappy with snippets' accuracy they support the use of Meta Description... that does not say Meta Description improves ordered ranks or improves click-throughs... get Google to say that and show that and I'll retract my statements.

Better Titles improve ranks.

Better Links improves ranks.

Better page layout improves snippets.

Better page content improves the chances of getting better links and that improves the chance of getting more sales.

I would surely likely to see the "positive impact" of Meta Description - I haven't in my own research of use Metas, then deleting, then using, then deleting always attempting to see an upward or downward trends - I don't even see any solid circumstantial evidence.

Sorry but I don't believe rhetorical comments e.g. "I've used the meta description with great success on some larger sites" - that proves nothing and I don't want my successes to just rely on your say so... if everyone else does that fine but that doesn't make it true.

[mit]

META tags (description and keywords) are not so necessary if you have a unique and useful content on your web page.

but, yes google read the description tag and also shows up in its results.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by cw1865

The same is true from search queries. The organic listings prominently display the title tag and below that the description tag. Why wouldn't you want to fill this field with an appropriate description?

The problem... Meta Description only provides appropriate description for phrases you include in the Meta itself... this is only your most targeted or competitive phrase(s) and not every phrase... and if you include the maximum amount of phrases in your Meta your meta isn't so compelling or appropriate.

The bigger problem... it is a proven fact that most websites get as much traffic from longtail phrases as they do from their more targeted/competitive phrases... which means you Meta won't show for many of these... so how are your snippets in these cases?

That the problem - if "you" don't see it - it doesn't happen... but how many people "didn't click" because the longtail book wasn't appealing?

[fathom]

Use it, don't use it - isn't the point here... speculation on its value doesn't mean it's true.

[allthingsyou]

I thank you all for all the advice and information, much appreciated!

Gary