Is this the death of PageRank?

[tamecrow]

The discussions regarding the recent PageRank shakeup are always very fruity, but here's a topic of debate for you. Is this the beginning of the end for PageRank? Definitive PageRank, most probably not, but what about Toolbar PageRank? Are Google starting to phase out the marker which has caused so much controversy and debate in the SEO world since its inception? Is this the death of the little green bar?

Discuss

[coolguy27]

I think not as long as the Google still uses this as their algorithm it will never be....Maybe they can hide it just like the Supplemental Results. They disabled it for viewing...

[mjtaylor]

Personally, I believe Google kept the toolbar PR because they believed that was the main reason users have the toolbar and they want the user info. But I have thought for a while that with all the hoopla about paid links they should and would just stop revealing it altogether! Ctabuk says the newer versions of toolbars do not have the PR option ... I don't know about that.

Frankly, I was surprised they did this export ... link buying and trading for PR will not stop until people can't easily assess it - or think they can.

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Personally, I believe Google kept the toolbar PR because they believed that was the main reason users have the toolbar and they want the user info.

This is an interesting idea.

Of course, there's one point worth considering. The fact that the PageRank drops were so dramatic and affected such big websites (YouTube, Washington Post) and enough minor websites to make webmasters it up and take notice, coupled with the fact that Matt Cutts came out and very publicly announced the reasons behind this, makes me wonder. It was Matt Cutts who first 'tipped off' the community about paid linking, and we've not heard much official word other than that. It makes me wonder if this is another scare tactic of piece of PageRank propaganda.

[wige]

Realistically, Google can't get rid of the toolbar pagerank. It is the only way they have an excuse to gather browsing data from toolbar users. Without that, the toolbar could be classified as spyware, which would wipe out use of the toolbar, and probably diminish consumer trust. Although it is known in SEO and SEM circles that the toolbar pagerank does not affect SERPs directly, end users in the general public can still use it as a gauge of the approximate web popularity of a specific page, which can still be slightly useful in determining if a page is a phishing page, for example.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by wige

Realistically, Google can't get rid of the toolbar pagerank. It is the only way they have an excuse to gather browsing data from toolbar users. Without that, the toolbar could be classified as spyware, which would wipe out use of the toolbar, and probably diminish consumer trust.

Wige, I don't understand why removing PR from the toolbar would make G's toolbar spyware? And Yahoo's toolbar doesn't have a PR metric ... is that spyware? Or do they not gather info?

[SEO Slacker]

Yeah, I don't really agree that removing Pagerank would make the Google toolbar spyware. Less people might install it without Pagerank, but doesn't it still provide some useful search functions or something? (I only use it for PR - no clue what it's supposed to do. )

[incrediblehelp]

Having TBPR viewable or not, any toolbar in general can gather user data. Remember you are opting into installing the thing. You could be installing god knows what when doing such a thing.

We hope the major companies and search engines ethically wont do such a thing, but some do.

[wige]

True, any toolbar can gather and report what you do. However, the ones that actually do so have to make it clear that is what they are doing in the EULA, and they must provide a clear reason for gathering this data (and it must be something that can be considered a benefit for the user) or they will be labeled as spyware. Basically, Google tries to emphasize to the public their doctrine of "Don't be evil". They have already run into legal issues over privacy, and if they completely do away with displaying pagerank, they won't have any excuse for their toolbar to send browsing data back to their servers. Most toolbars do not track browser behavior to the same extent as Googles, and the ones that do are generally considered spyware unless they can provide a reason for that activity - As far as I know, Yahoo doesn't send data back to their servers unless you make a specific request, and anti-phishing and security toolbars can make the argument that they are checking the page or domain against a central database.

[dburdon]

Tamecrow,

hmmm. PageRank is definitely here to stay. Its Google's raison d'etre. Forget Toolbar PageRank. It counts for very little.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by wige

<snip>completely do away with displaying pagerank, they won't have any excuse for their toolbar to send browsing data back to their servers.

Except that (presumably) toolbar PR doesn't have anything to do with user behavior so how does that justify sending back browser data?

Originally Posted by dburdon

Forget Toolbar PageRank. It counts for very little.

For the average webmaster this is probably confusing. What other sort of PR gauge is there but what can be seen on the toolbar? Granted that it's outdated within days or even hours of export, but for the average webmaster who comes to a forum such as this to learn about SEO, how would you suggest they assess PR if not by the toolbar?

[SemAdvance]

PR PR PR

Does it really matter?

I visited 7 successful businesses today.

Oddly enough none of them had the Google Toolbar installed on the walls of there buildings nor did they have another useless tool the Alexa toolbar.

I walked out shaking my head in amazement that these guys were doing millions without all the special tools everyone online seems focused on.

What did businesses do before PageRank?

[cass-hacks]

It would at first seem in Google's best interest to get rid of the toolbar PageRank display.

What better way to dissuade the sale of links if the best metric to gauge the value of a given link is taken away?

On the other hand, if they take it away, that won't stop links from being sold so people will just find a different metric. That would only remove Google's influence on the "market".

But, as long as Google has the toolbar PageRank display, they can influence the perceived value of a given page's links and if they feel a given page is selling links, simply devalue the toolbar PageRank display for that page making the buying and selling of links on that page seem less attractive.

[gwhite]

I think Google had to do this shuffle to keep page rank meaningful. I have three sites that were pr5 and really didn't deserve it, I have one that I thought should be higher than the pr5 it is. Now, after the shuffle, the quality site is still a 5, and the others dropped to a 3 (probably about right based on the effort applied to each of them).

Used to, if you slapped up a 5 page site and got a couple of links, you were at least a 3 and if they were good links a 4-5, I think Google is shuffling so that it takes a good site to get 4-6 rankings and great sites (as per value to the Internet as a whole) get the 7-10.

So you have to work your tail off to get to a 5-6 and it is only the extraordinary that go beyond that. So actually I think Google extended the life of PR by adjusting a bunch of the sites downward and making all 10 points of PR meaningful.

[Toni Anicic]

This is not the end of the page rank in my humble opinion.

Google will remove the toolbar PR when they calculate they got no use of it anymore, witch might not ever happen. They get most of the new toolbar users from the fact they are serving PR on toolbar. Without PR on the toolbar, they get no new users, no new users leads to lass data, lass data leads to lass money for google...

BTW. I'm a Croatian webmaster who's been reading the WebProNews newsletter for over a year now i believe. This is my first post here, so hello everyone And sorry if i misspell anything, English is my 3rd language.

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by dburdon

Tamecrow,

hmmm. PageRank is definitely here to stay. Its Google's raison d'etre. Forget Toolbar PageRank. It counts for very little.

I agree that TBPR can be very confusing for many people. In fact, it quite often causes more problems than it solves because so many people don't know the real purpose behind it.

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

PR PR PR

Does it really matter?

I visited 7 successful businesses today.

Oddly enough none of them had the Google Toolbar installed on the walls of there buildings nor did they have another useless tool the Alexa toolbar.

I walked out shaking my head in amazement that these guys were doing millions without all the special tools everyone online seems focused on.

What did businesses do before PageRank?

Agree with you on Alexa. Of course, we know that PR is not crucial to rankings and doesn't have any direct relation to rankings. However, it's still a major talking point in SEO (as this thread has proven) and we'd be foolish to discount anything which may or may not be important in SEO without absolute empirical proof.

[tamecrow]

I'm not sure about those who say that the green bar is the biggest reason for people downloading the toolbar. Personally, I use it for the search box. I have the green bar turned off.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by tamecrow

I'm not sure about those who say that the green bar is the biggest reason for people downloading the toolbar. Personally, I use it for the search box. I have the green bar turned off.

I use three browsers with three different home pages. I have the toolbar on the FF browser with the TbRank on. The suggest functionality of the search box is great.

Related WPW thread: Death of Toolbar Pagerank

[incrediblehelp]

Here is an old fun thread some of you want want to look over:

Why WPW Should Not Discuss Google Toolbar PR Anymore

[tamecrow]

Of course, we all know the future lies with PigeonRank

[wige]

Just like the Alexa toolbar data, Google's toolbar pagerank is based on something of a con. With Alexa, they convince webmasters to download a toolbar so they can track where webmasters go to build statistics that are then shown to those webmasters for comparitive purposes.

Google is based on the same principle, but with a different strategy. Google tries to convince the general public (not webmasters) that the green bar has value (the old line was that the pagerank was a measure of the popularity of a site). This would give the public a reason to download and use the toolbar, and would let Google harvest user data from a broader user base then the Alexa toolbar has.

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Except that (presumably) toolbar PR doesn't have anything to do with user behavior so how does that justify sending back browser data?

The toolbar displays the PageRank of every page the user visits. In order to get the PR, the toolbar sends the current URL to toolbar.google.com and gets the PR value back. (the url may have changed) Now Google knows every page every user with the toolbar visits. Want "proof" that Google tracks this data? We know PR data is not updated live. However, this data is not cached locally - if it was, it would save both Google and the user bandwidth and slightly reduce load times. Instead every time you re-request a page, the toolbar makes a new request.

Think about the value of this. Google has data that is absolutely useless. It is already out of date, it is relatively meaningless when it comes to SERPs because it only gives information about link popularity, not perceived relevance, and it is an arbitrary weighted value anyway. Google is able to create a demand for this information, partly on the novelty factor (see how popular your favorite sites are!) and partly on the behind the scenes appeal (see a part of how Google ranks sites). Then, they give it away, and get a MASSIVE amount of user information in exchange.

Just a couple possible uses of the data they gather: some small web site gets 100,000 new links in a week. How does Google know if the links are spam, or the company just made a huge splash? Well, has the site had a massive increase in traffic? Just check the toolbar logs. How does Google know if a site in the SERPs is actually relevant to an entered search term? Check the bounce rate from the toolbar users.

[tamecrow]

Just another thing I should add... They definitely do track what sites you visit if you use the Google Toolbar. I found this out by conducting multiple experiments in which I set up websites on a variety of domains and did not alert the SEs to them whatsoever. No sitemaps were submitted or even created, and no links to these sites were added anywhere. However, I did visit each site once on a browser with the Google Toolbar installed. Within days (often sooner), these sites were indexed. The ones which I didn't visit with the Google Toolbar installed were not. I'll let you think about that

[ctabuk]

Never forget that G-mail is also spyware - I have devised a simple cookie block that allows me to read my mail but then it auto switches off -so that I have to log in again. But frankly I don't care. And don't ask me how I did it - but I'll give you a clue - Windows

[crankydave]

Is it possible that TBPR has simply evolved and will no longer be displaying a value that reflects the value they use internally? I found it interesting that Matt referred their "opinion" of certain sites changing.

The toolbar itself is here to stay. I don't see its primary purpose being to display PR. I also don't see them believing that the display of PR is an important function or indicator for the random surfer otherwise it would be installed by default or at the very least, exceptionally easy to find and opt in for.

Removing the display alltogether, as has already been pointed out, would simply force folks to use other metrics for buying and selling advertisements, links etc. Not neccessarily a bad thing but does not accomplish what they'd ideally like to see IMO. Namely the buying and selling of links curtailed drastically.

In the past, when they've wanted to "devalue" a particular segment of links (ie reciprocal link pages) they've either deindexed the entire page, or moved the page to the "other" index.

If we take one of the recently affected sites, Forbes.com, neither of those 2 options are viable.

If they were able to simply "discount" the individual links on a page they don't like efficiently themselves, efficiently being the key here, they would. Actual PR calculations would work themselves out by including only the links on a page they like.

Without the webmasters helping them out by discounting individual links for them, by not placing them or tagging them "nofollow" the next best alternative, as I see it, is to try and disuade the folks from buying links. People who are indeed buying advertising or links simply to "get the green" are going to stop if that's they only value they think they're getting.

If webmasters and site owners were clamouring about a drastic loss of traffic and rankings across the board then I'd be more inclined to think otherwise. But unless this starts happening, I'm more inclined to think that this is more "visual" than anything else... at least at this point.

Dave

[jordanmcclements]

Originally Posted by tamecrow

Of course, we all know the future lies with PigeonRank

he he he he he....

[ctabuk]

Note: This page was posted for April Fool's Day - 2002.

If only they could have been that honest with the TBPR

[wige]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Is it possible that TBPR has simply evolved and will no longer be displaying a value that reflects the value they use internally?

Has it ever been? My understanding based on the way these values are calculated was that what is shown is already an extremely oversimplified version of the internal PR. Basically, every page in the index is ranked from 1 to [size of index], with 1 being the highest, based on the internal PR. Supposedly, unlike internal pagerank, this only goes 1 link deep (instead of looking at each iteration of links, it only takes into account the pagerank of each linking page, rather than the divided pr over multiple "generations" of links). Those pages are then broken down in such a way that the bottom x% have a PR of 1, the next x% have a PR of 2, etc. This is further weighted so that more pages fall into the 1 slot than into 2, and so on, with 10 having the smallest percentage.

(Granted the information I am basing this on is ancient, and so it should be taken with a grain of salt.)

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by wige

Has it ever been? ...My understanding based on the way these values are calculated was that what is shown is already an extremely oversimplified version of the internal PR...

Yes. From the very beginning.

Doesn't matter what logarithmic scale was/is used for the export. What matters is that same scale was applied to the internal scale for all pages then exported for a visual representation. Put very simply, is the only thing that is being changed the "little green bar" (perception) and not the internal metric?

If the internal metric was being affected, I would expect to see and hear about many more pages of the affected sites moved into the "other" index and thus affecting rankings and traffic. I'd also expext to see and hear about the pages that those pages link to being affected in a similar way.

As of yet, I've not.

Dave

[kgun]

Originally Posted by tamecrow

The discussions regarding the recent PageRank shakeup are always very fruity, but here's a topic of debate for you. Is this the beginning of the end for PageRank? Definitive PageRank, most probably not, but what about Toolbar PageRank? Are Google starting to phase out the marker which has caused so much controversy and debate in the SEO world since its inception? Is this the death of the little green bar?

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Ctabuk says the newer versions of toolbars do not have the PR option ... I don't know about that.

Is this rumours or fact? One way to test it is to install the Google Toolbar.

By default the "Help Google improve the Toolbar by sending us usage statistics is unchecked".

Choose your configuration. Please read this carefully. It's not the usual yada yada.

There are also radio buttons:

Enable PageRank

Disable PageRank

So the choice is yours.

Note:

New! Google Toolbar for Enterprise