What Do You Love About SEO?

[espmartin]

Oh no!!! Keyword Density! You had to go there Webnauts! I have seen people leave
SEO forums for the arguments that subject has caused. By the way, I totally agree with no
more than 3%. As a matter of fact, in my older days, I shot for (not sure where I got this
value, I think it was webceo) 4.8%.

Now, sometimes - inadvertently - a phrase may make close to 5% on a page, but I have
not seen any type of "penalty" for it. For example, if you target flower pots and
accessories, and use the term flower pot a bit more frequently in your natural text on
page, it'll get a higher density. But again, if it's not outrageous - or spammy/black hat
(hidden text) - I wouldn't worry.

OK, back on topic!

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

According to Wordtracker, Overture and Keyword Discovery the term web standards is not a searched term. The term web design standards, web standards in design and web standards design either.

I just checked Wordtracker and web standards is predicted to be searched 51 times a day ... and the others also show in that realm ...






Keyword discovery predicts lower daily predictions ... but they are searched terms ... I didn't check the Overture tool ... it's too outdated.

web standards is a highly competitive term; we design standards less so ...

FWIW,
MJ

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by espmartin

Oh no!!! Keyword Density! You had to go there Webnauts! I have seen people leave
SEO forums for the arguments that subject has caused. By the way, I totally agree with no
more than 3%. As a matter of fact, in my older days, I shot for (not sure where I got this
value, I think it was webceo) 4.8%.

Now, sometimes - inadvertently - a phrase may make close to 5% on a page, but I have
not seen any type of "penalty" for it. For example, if you target flower pots and
accessories, and use the term flower pot a bit more frequently in your natural text on
page, it'll get a higher density. But again, if it's not outrageous - or spammy/black hat
(hidden text) - I wouldn't worry.

OK, back on topic!

Just one real example:

The seoworkers.com was ranking on the 30th of July 2007 for the terms search engine optimization #743 and seo #323. Until that day, keyword density was 4.x %.
Then we reduced to 2.x% and suddenly we had an extreme boost for both terms.

We rank today for term search engine optimization #262 and #263, which term has monthly search volume 411.576/month, and for the term seo #108 and #109, which has monthly search volume 163.720/month. And since the first year birthday of seoworkers.com (5th of October 2007), the ranking are improving dramatically.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Members attention: POST IS OFF-TOPIC! PLEASE IGNORE IT IF YOU FEEL OFFENDED!!!
Since we are talking about keyword ensity, I will tell you a secret. Try to be max. 3%. I did tests my my own site man. Risky but it worked.

The ideal average is 2.75%-3% though. If lower it is not too bad, but the higher you go, the more decreases your rankings. Just a tip.

Hey, as long as you say you *love* keyword density you're on topic ...

and since I started this thread, don't *I* get to decide when it's off topic or not????

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Hey, as long as you say you *love* keyword density you're on topic ...

MJ can you be more specific? Should we love keyword density?

I prefer this: Google PageRank - Additional Factors

[Webnauts]

Espmartin which site of yours rank #18 for the term web standards?

[espmartin]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Espmartin which site of yours rank #18 for the term web standards?

You mean * cough * #17? fiercestreetnetworks.com


I also rank #13 for search engine optimization tips - now THAT'S SCARY!!!

Even SCARIER:

I rank #120 for search engine optimization ...

All organic SEO on a sub-domain of that first site of mine.

Albeit, that sub-domain is on a separate IP network.

[espmartin]

And also - accessibility has been the foundation for these sites

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by espmartin

You mean * cough * #17? fiercestreetnetworks.com


I also rank #13 for search engine optimization tips - now THAT'S SCARY!!!

Even SCARIER:

I rank #120 for search engine optimization ...

All organic SEO on a sub-domain of that first site of mine.

Albeit, that sub-domain is on a separate IP network.

Martin you forgot to mention that your domain/site exists since 2004-06-29 (almost three and a half years old) and you PR bar shows 6. I would have expected much more than that, if you want me to be very honest.

[espmartin]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Martin you forgot to mention that your domain/site exists since 2004-06-29 (almost three and a half years old)...

Yes, 3 year old site. You can't argue with that... (how young is your site?)

Originally Posted by Webnauts

...and you PR bar shows 6. I would have expected much more than that, if you want me to be very honest.

And so what you are saying is PageRank directly correlates to a high SERP?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by espmartin

Yes, 3 year old site. You can't argue with that... (how young is your site?)

My seoworkers.com site? 2006-10-05.

Originally Posted by espmartin

And so what you are saying is PageRank directly correlates to a high SERP?

It correlates. And from my observations, more than before.

[espmartin]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

... PageRank ...It correlates. And from my observations, more than before.

Let me ask this question then. If a site wants a higher SERP,
buying text links from high PR sites (see this discussion) will
help more than links from another low PR site with relevant content?

If I wanted my site that has a #120 SERP for search engine
optimization to be #20 - I can "buy my way up" with PR?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by espmartin

Let me ask this question then. If a site wants a higher SERP,
buying text links from high PR sites (see this discussion) will
help more than links from another low PR site with relevant content?

If I wanted my site that has a #120 SERP for search engine
optimization to be #20 - I can "buy my way up" with PR?

Buying and selling links is a NO NO!!!
Publishing on your site high quality articles, tutorials and tools can bring you traffic and IBLs. That is our main strategy, and our google webmaster tools shows us that we have at the moment 8,309 links in total, which 3.407 go to our articles, tutorials and tips, 2,492 go to our tools, and 2,389 go to our home page, and the rest are spread to other pages.

Is that a good example?

[espmartin]

Yes Webnauts, a perfect, above board, (edited to say, "squeaky clean") "white hat" strategy. Can't go wrong with that !

[killerbeame]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Good fun? I think it is boring.

Listening to whatever music I want in my pj's - watching sales increase when rank does.. umm.. yea!! lots of fun!

[espmartin]

Originally Posted by killerbeame

Listening to whatever music I want in my pj's - watching sales increase when rank does.. umm.. yea!! lots of fun!

Ha ha ha...I forgot what this thread was originally about

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by espmartin

Ha ha ha...I forgot what this thread was originally about

Wasn't the thread about listening to whatever music in pj's?

[espmartin]

Funny thing is, I woke up this morning, took a shower, got dressed,
and started doing this internet thingie...

No PJ's here

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

MJ can you be more specific? Should we love keyword density?

It was just a joke ... you brought up kwd ... and if I say it too loudly, Dan will come and slap my hand again ...

Originally Posted by Webnauts

My seoworkers.com site? 2006-10-05.

Is there some kind of one p-ing contest going on here, cause this is my thread ... and while loving kwd is okay, this my site is better than yours isn't about loving SEO, is it?

Originally Posted by espmartin

Ha ha ha...I forgot what this thread was originally about

Exactly! I go away for a couple of hours, put on my PJs and look what happens! Gonna go listen to some music now ...

See you all in the morning ...

MJ

[nottheusual1]

I **am** listening to music and working in my sweats (up here, men don't admit to having "jammies"), but I couldn't pass this one little thing up:

PR has nothing to do with organic placement. Zip. And the proof is in the pudding:

We've got a PR3 site that organically places #1 for every expensive keyword and better than #3 on the low volume ones - in Google, MSN and Yahoo.

Big money keywords, too. Like a $30k/month spend even with the killer organics. Knowing our competition, we figure that big G is bringing in about $250k/month for the top 10 keywords/sets from all the advertisers.

That's what we love about SEO. Every organic click saves us about $2.17. Maybe Santa will bring us all some of those cool jammies with the feet.

Yeah......

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

PR has nothing to do with organic placement. Zip. And the proof is in the pudding:

I seem to be having problems seeing the proof in your pudding.

Although it may seem like PageRank has nothing to do with organic rankings, that is not actually the case but since according to Google, PageRank is only one of ~200 signals that Google uses for indexing and ranking, it may not seem like it has much effect.

But, if you pick a few pages important to your site's overall PageRank and disallow them and remove them using Google's URL removal tool and, assuming you removed enough PageRank in doing so, what you will likely see is an increase in the number of Supplemental pages followed by a drop in the total pages indexed which will then likely be followed by a drop in organic rankings for pages that are still in the Main index.

That is not guaranteed to happen because it depends on the ~200 signals being out of balance enough and in the right way to cause it to happen but if you can get to the point of the total indexed page count dropping significantly, more than likely you will see SERPs positions dropping as well. Maybe not dropping by much but likely a drop none the less.

[nottheusual1]

But that supports my contention:

If PR is diluted as one of ~200, therefore not having a significant effect in and of itself, then it can't be stated that minor changes in PR **alone** are effecting organic search position. That was an earlier assertion in the thread.

If PR is deemed to be more significant than other factors and is thus weighted, it would be the case where having a lower PR, at some point, would be detrimental to organic placement - creating a ceiling.

We've shown that a PR of 3 doesn't and can get organic results better than sites with PR's of 4+ and all the Amazon's and Bizrates, etc.

I do agree that there are a huge number of factors that play into how/where you end up, but I also think people obsess over things that in the true big picture are less effective than getting your Website pitched in 10-12 semi-random blog posts per month.

We love SEO because of its depth - like good coffee on a crisp fall morning. But, still, green tea tastes better in the afternoon (with a twist of lemon), so we don't obsess over the coffee.

And don't get me started on the caff-in-a-can crowd.....

[mjtaylor]

If we want to talk about whether PR has anything to do with rankings, let's please start a new thread for that ... unless what you love about SEO is debating this topic ... then I still think a new thread would be in order ...



MJ

[espmartin]

What Do You Love About SEO?

I want to add to my answer...I can bring my dogs to work!

Or rather, they can Gib Laut in my ear when they need to "relieve" themselves outside

[joncase]

Whew, now that we are back on topic. I love SEO because I get to discuss its ins and outs, ups and downs, and this forum on the phone with my colleague, MJ, all the time!
Jon

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

If PR is diluted as one of ~200, therefore not having a significant effect in and of itself, then it can't be stated that minor changes in PR **alone** are effecting organic search position. That was an earlier assertion in the thread.

All else being equal, I definitely agree. But, if many of the other signals are on the hairy edge, a small change in PR could "flip the switch" so to speak. That's likely not the usual case but the important point I'd like to propose is that while PageRank doesn't seem to by itself make a big difference, if conditions are right, it can.

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

If PR is deemed to be more significant than other factors and is thus weighted, it would be the case where having a lower PR, at some point, would be detrimental to organic placement - creating a ceiling.

It would seem to have to be weighted pretty heavily, which it seems like it isn't, for that to happen.

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

We've shown that a PR of 3 doesn't and can get organic results better than sites with PR's of 4+ and all the Amazon's and Bizrates, etc.

True, but that doesn't mean that PageRank is totally out of the picture.

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

... but I also think people obsess over things that ...

The only way I could agree more is if I were you!

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

And don't get me started on the caff-in-a-can crowd.....

Go ahead, get started!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by nottheusual1

PR has nothing to do with organic placement. Zip.

And what does it have to do with? Can you explain us?

[Peter (IMC)]

What I love about SEO is the results it gets.

A customer that is opening new stores after we optimized their website and the number of visitors trippled. And what´s more important, the quality of the visitors increased so sales increase even more.

A customer that hires 4 new sales people after we optimized their Adwords campaign (not SEO in its heart but very similar and because of the results they buy a new design and SEO)

A customer that reduces its online marketing budget by 40 % in order to pay for SEO, with the result that they receive 120 contacts per month in stead of 20 before the SEO. Aditional result: They lowered their online marketing budget 30 % more.

A big company that hired us, sees an increase in online sales after hiring our consultancy services and implementing our suggestions. The result: They are hiring additional consultancy services to improve their website.

A customer that was always late with paying and sometimes did not pay at all because they simply didn't have the money, after 8 months starts paying their bills normally and even contracted additional services.

Results are the thing that make it fun. You really feel like you´re making a difference in people's lives.

[mjtaylor]

Peter: thanks for getting us back on topic!

[erikko]

it is fulfilling specially when i see my site/blog in top ten SERPs and that makes me happy because it means that i reap all my fruits of my labor

[Webnauts]

I fully agree and great post Peter! Honestly!

I also feel that way, when I am making web sites accessible too.

[espmartin]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

... I also feel that way, when I am making web sites accessible too.

I vote for Peter's answer as the best I've read so far...Wait - Webmauts answer here too!

I remember having a conversation with a web hoster. He asked me why I cared so much
about accessibility ("Hey man, what's the deal with you and this accessibility thing?"), and
as I told him about a friend of mine that will be (due to illness) legally blind in about 3
years time - and this friend is an internet phreak, as she loves the access it brings her to
"reach the world"...he said, "oh...ok...cool."

Now, in a few years my friend wont be able to see her family, friends, her new husband, or
her crazy cat...let alone her favorite websites. But - I if I can help it - I'll do whatever it
takes, even if it makes me a "boring website builder" (totally inaccurate description of an
accessible website) that "gets on his Standards Soapbox every chance he gets", to make
sure people like my friend won't be discriminated by in-accessible websites.

Why should I, a sighted user, get to have all the fun, knowledge, and information that
the internet brings me - while my friend finds her favorite web-stomping grounds are
out of reach to her?

And that's why I really have "begun to" love SEO, because I have seen with the
accessified sites I run, that there is a strong advantage that semantic HTML /
accessibility bring to SERPs (In My Opinion, YMMV) - and what is a better incentive to
an internet marketer than higher SERPs?

Wow...a book? (I get off my soapbox, dust off the tomatoes and eggs that have been
thrown at me, and go home )

[JohneeMac]

I love it simply, because after the years of testing and trying things i now cannot cope with the amount of enquires i get.

All the long nights of reading has finally paid off and my business now makes money!

[tricker]

well i started my career as a web designer and always trying to code with cleaniness 2-3 yrs back i came to know about the SEO it is something related to use proper HTML code and follow the W3C Guidelines and some other stuffs too..

but i like is to code properly, use proper guidelines etc..