Can You Combine Writing Naturally and SEO Copywriting?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Narasinha

I suppose you should always think of your audience first. What do they expect to hear? In this respect, I think your audience probably searches in the same manner in which they read. Certain words or phrases are familiar to them, and that's what they expect to read, and that's probably what they search for.

I think this post answers all questions raised in this thread. You rule Dan!

[thepoacher]

I think so much of this depends on the product. In the travel industry so much web copy exactly fits these almost fanatically proscribed guidelines and as a consequence is just dull and gives barely any flavour of experience whatsoever.

[noel_x99]

I agree it has so much to do with the audience you are targeting. But I don't think you have to ignore the guidelines and write dull text.

I remembered reading an article by Karon Thackston (a web copy writer) that was a before and after on a travel site.

It's a little old now, but I found a reference to that article.

Making an Emotional Connection

I think it takes a skilled writer to do this, but it's optimized text and well-written text can be combined.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

This thread has also moved up to 56 in G for 'writing for SEO' and to 156 for 'SEO copywriter.' which are searched terms ...

MJ

And today?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

And today?

Getting filtered for another thread on this forum at #59 for "writing for SEO", with ZERO promotion for either and I didn't bother to check the other. I'm busy.

Your point?

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Getting filtered for another thread on this forum at #59 for "writing for SEO", with ZERO promotion for either and I didn't bother to check the other. I'm busy.

Your point?

Dave

My point is that new pages/sites rank high for a short time. Then when the battle is settled, they move to were they belong too.

It is a great temporally bait method though.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Is it possible to write naturally and optimize for the search engines? Yes, I think it is. Writing naturally means writing for the human visitor and not for the search engines – but it doesn’t mean you forget your keywords or skip the keyword research. It means the focus is on readability and the usefulness of the content for the visitor and not on getting your keywords into the content as many times as possible. Focus on what you want to say, create an outline (at least in your head, and better on paper) then write.


When you sit down to write content for your website or blog, and keep your focus on the topic, your outline and creating an article or post with a beginning, middle and end, your copy will naturally include the keywords and synonyms relevant to your topic – if you really know your subject. That’s natural optimization. Once your copy is written, then edit it to see where you can add your keywords and have the copy still sound natural. Look for ways to use the synonyms, related terms and stems.


For example, stems of fishing are fish, fished, fishes, fishy. Related terms would be lakes, sea, bass, trout, marlin, boat, tackle, angling.


It helps to get someone else to look it over and see if you’ve overdone your target terms anywhere. And sleep on it. A fresh look the next day or a few days later may help you edit out the fluff and tighten your copy. Return to your outline before you publish. It will probably give you natural sub headings, breaking up the copy and making it more readable. Chances are those sub headings will also contain your keywords or related terms, and used in h2 or h3 tags, will help optimize your page for the search engines.

Do:

• Put your keyword once in the title, once in the meta keyword tag and once in the meta description tag;
• Put your keyword once in the heading of the page;
• Put your keyword once in the first sentence – but probably no more than once in any given paragraph.

Any more tips on writing naturally and optimizing for the search engines?

I think the discussion is not over. Jill Whallen published yesterday an interesting article about this issue:
Avoiding Clueless-Is As Clueless-Does SEO

I advise you all to have a look at it.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I think the discussion is not over. Jill Whallen published yesterday an interesting article about this issue:
Avoiding Clueless-Is As Clueless-Does SEO

I advise you all to have a look at it.

I don't think the discussion will ever be over and I'm not the least bit surprised that Jill is in support of writing naturally for SEO, the same idea MJ started this thread with...

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Is it possible to write naturally and optimize for the search engines? Yes, I think it is. Writing naturally means writing for the human visitor and not for the search engines – but it doesn’t mean you forget your keywords or skip the keyword research. It means the focus is on readability and the usefulness of the content for the visitor and not on getting your keywords into the content as many times as possible. Focus on what you want to say, create an outline (at least in your head, and better on paper) then write.

Originally Posted by Jill Whalen

...Algorithms are determined by what the average person who knows nothing about SEO would naturally do on their website when putting it together...

It’s not a bad thing to think about SEO when designing your site. In fact, it’s a great thing. But only if you use your brain and your common sense at the same time. Always think about the reasons why you’re doing what you’re doing. When you do that, you’ll find it much easier to know exactly what to put on your site and where to put it.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Dave I have have a question:

If search engines algorithms are determined by what the average person who knows nothing about SEO would naturally do on their website when putting it together, what is the role and practices of a SEO Copywriter? If I see that profession title, I think it is about optimizing a copy for search engines.

Do you also see the contradiction?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Dave I have have a question:

If search engines algorithms are determined by what the average person who knows nothing about SEO would naturally do on their website when putting it together, what is the role and practices of a SEO Copywriter? If I see that profession title, I think it is about optimizing a copy for search engines.

Do you also see the contradiction?

Nope. I see no contradictions.

To me, writing naturally, what an average person might write, means not allowing tools to dictate exactly what and more importantly how, you write just because the tool "says so".

Nor does it mean to totally ignore SEO when you're writing.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Being able to combine the 2, writing naturally while taking into consideration SEO aspects in the best possible manner.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Dave can you explain which are those SEO aspects which should be taken into consideration?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Dave can you explain which are those SEO aspects which should be taken into consideration?

Are you saying you don't know?

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Are you saying you don't know?

Dave

I am sure that you aware of the fact that almost no one agrees with my practices in general. I assume that the reason is because before I began with SEO I was expertizing in accessibility, usability and web semantics .

So what I was just asking is, which are the general considerations of SEOs when it comes to content optimization for search engines? Does the question sound weird? It is not.

Why? I cannot think about any practices that can be classified as content SEO or copywriting SEO. I only know online journalism, and that's it. I am honest here Dave.

If someone will start talking about those old school techniques, like the keywords must be placed on the top, at the middle and at the bottom of the page, and will call that content/copywritting search engine optimization, then I am afraid that I will have to laugh man.

I am convinced that content should written for humans (user, buyers, etc) and not for Robots with Artificial Intelligence. And if it should be for such robots, GoogleBot is still not one them. Or? And if GoogleBot will be one day, I do not think that we will not need to optimize. Or? So what do you understand with the term content/copywritting search engine optimization?

[crankydave]

So your issue is with MJ's signature, your interpretation of it, and not what is being discussed in this thread.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

So your issue is with MJ's signature, your interpretation of it, and not what is being discussed in this thread.

Dave

No Dave. It is established web wide. See here: seo copywriting - Google Search

296,000 web sites.

Thread title is: Can You Combine Writing Naturally and SEO Copywriting?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

No Dave. It is established web wide. See here: seo copywriting - Google Search

296,000 web sites.

Thread title is: Can You Combine Writing Naturally and SEO Copywriting?

When was the last time you read this...

"http://www.seoworkers.com/seo-articles-tutorials/search-engine-optimization.html"

Agrees with much of the very same thing being discussed in this thread.

Let's take just a few quotes from this thread as well...

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Yes, I think it is. Writing naturally means writing for the human visitor and not for the search engines – but it doesn’t mean you forget your keywords or skip the keyword research.

Originally Posted by Feydakin

The best copyrighting needs to fulfill several goals..

1. It needs to be easy to comprehend
2. It needs to promote conversion whether that is a sale, a click, or an idea.
3. It needs to be found

Originally Posted by thegypsy

I think it is almost ESSENTIAL to write less around KW Density and think more related words/terms and concepts

Originally Posted by CrankyDave

I tended to agree with you then, still do, that by "making your point" through related phrases, concepts, and ideas, (sounds "natural" to me), rather than by repeating yourself over and over again (density?) you'll stand a far better chance of being considered more important

Originally Posted by webnauts

Too high keyword density can trigger spam filter. What is too high? When the copy becomes unnatural

And I could continue...

The majority of the posts in this thread are echoing the same sentiment.

The only problem I see you having is the use of SEO and copywriting being used together based upon how you've chosen to define it. And the only person I see you having a problem with using the two together is MJ REGARDLESS of the message that is being conveyed.

Get over it.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Dave,

the techniques below are pure web design techniques. Every link leads to the guidelines of the organization (W3C) which found the markup languages and accessibility techniques we use to design web sites.

1. The <title> element in HTML is designed to provide a short piece of text that should stand for the document.

2. Use <h1> is the HTML element for the first-level heading of a document.

3. Use of Headings are the HTML elements to structure your document.

4. Providing equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content.

5. Clarifying natural language is markup that facilitates pronunciation or interpretation of abbreviated or foreign text.

6. Providing clear navigation systems - orientation information, navigation bars, a site map, etc. -- to increase the likelihood that a person will find what they are looking for at a site.

7. Choosing URLs. Choosing URIs wisely.

8. Managing URIs. Moving and renaming Web resources.

9. Provide context and orientation information to help users understand complex pages or elements.

10. Ensuring that documents are clear and simple.

Obviously I left some out, as I just wanted to present some examples, to back up my posts above, that I cannot understand what SEO copywriting is about.

Did you get my point now? Since I am a web designer and accessibility expert, does that mean that I am a SEO copywriter?

I hope now you got my point. I have no intention to offend or discriminate anybody.

[thegypsy]

O gawd .. R U going on about accessibility again? ... dats it.. I am leaving...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by thegypsy

O gawd .. R U going on about accessibility again? ... dats it.. I am leaving...

I guess you did not get my point. I did not want to start a discussion about accessiblity. But even if that was my intention, I feel very sorry to see how people don't care about humans who suffer from different disabilities.

Off-topic:

For people without disabilities, technology makes things convenient, says Judith Heumann, the U.S. Department of Education's Assistant Secretary of the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services, For people with disabilities, it makes things possible.

[thegypsy]

Oh I do... I am big on disabilities actually... I just have to razz ya when U go there brother man... we had that argument when we first met... I now know and love ya.. I just couldn't pass it up havin a few brews on a Firday night...

Say..U want to write a guest RANT for my BLog? I'd love a good rant from U.. seems U have some in ya....

Anyway, was just my way of sayin HI MAN!!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by thegypsy

Oh I do... I am big on disabilities actually... I just have to razz ya when U go there brother man... we had that argument when we first met... I now know and love ya.. I just couldn't pass it up havin a few brews on a Firday night...

Say..U want to write a guest RANT for my BLog? I'd love a good rant from U.. seems U have some in ya....

Anyway, was just my way of sayin HI MAN!!

David you shocked me man. I thought you were someone else.

[thegypsy]

Jeez bro.. How'd I shock U.. I usually have to try when I do that to peeps?

And I wasn't kidding about guest ranting if ya want... SEO Rants and internet business musings and Search news - SEO and internet marketing news

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Obviously I left some out, as I just wanted to present some examples, to back up my posts above, that I cannot understand what SEO copywriting is about.

John...

It is not only a skill, but an art. It's not simply black or white like the list you posted.

What makes a good speaker? The ability to follow a predefined list? No. The ability to engage their audience.

What makes a good writer (copywriter)? The ability to follow a predefined list? No again. The ability to engage their audience.

Let's take your list John. Which of those elements are going to engage your audience? Which of them are going to evoke emotion? Which of them are going to tell a story your audience can relate to?

What is the universal definition of SEO? Not how you may define it John, the universally accepted definition of what it is and what it entails. There isn't one very simply because there are shades of grey. It's not simply black and white.

If it were, anyone would simply be able to follow a predefined list and be good at it.

How about I give you my thoughts on what I think good SEO copywriting is...

The ability to make a point or convey an idea in such a way that attracts an audience, engages them, while taking into consideration and utilizing any aspects which could be considered SEO.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Source: Copywriting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Copywriting is the process of writing the words that promote a person, business, opinion, or idea. It may be used as plain text, as a radio or television advertisement, or in a variety of other media. The main purpose of writing this marketing copy, or promotional text, is to persuade the listener or reader to act — to buy a product or subscribe to a certain viewpoint, for instance. Alternatively, copy might also be intended to dissuade a reader from a particular belief or action.

Copywriting can include body copy, slogans, headlines, direct mail pieces, taglines, jingle lyrics, World Wide Web and Internet content, television or radio commercial scripts, press releases, white papers, and other written material incorporated into advertising media. Copywriters can contribute words and ideas to print ads, mail-order catalogs, billboards, commercials, brochures, postcards, online sites, e-mail, letters and other advertising media.
On websites, copywriting may also refer to the methods of writing and wording used to achieve higher rankings in search engines. Often referred to as content writing, it includes the strategic placement and repetition of keywords and keyword phrases on webpages. As search-engine algorithms get smarter every day, this search engine optimization (SEO) copywriting is more and more about writing for human visitors as well as for search engines, about offering fluent and readable content written in a SEO-wise manner.

So SEO copywriting practices are:

• Content writing? That is copywriting.
• Strategic placements?
• Repetition of keywords?
• Keyword phrases on page?

If you paid attention to my previous posts in this thread, you will see that none of the above SEO(!) techniques are of value today, except of content writing, which is not an SEO practice!

Dave after I assume that with your post above you wanted to define online copywriting, and not SEO copywriting, as it is obvious those practices are out-dated.

[crankydave]

It was YOU who did not bother to read what I posted.

I did not mention ANY SEO TECHNIQUES. Had you bothered to read my posts you'd have known that.

I did not define ANY SEO RELATED PRACTICES. Had you bothered to read my posts you'd have known that.

Had you bothered to actually read my posts, you'd know what I think GOOD COPYWRITING/WRITING of any kind entails.

I did not quote wikiwhatever you did! I do not use wikiwhatever to dictate my opinions or thoughts. I have the ability to make up my own mind and form my own own opinions. Clearly you do not and are more hellbent on promoting your own preconceived notions than to try and participate in a a discussion/debate with an open mind.

If your goal was to get this thread locked, you succeded. You can PM Mike if you want it unlocked.

Dave

[mjtaylor]

Jeez, I go away for a few days to pack up my belongings from my old house and move and look what happens to my thread! ;D

I do distinguish between copywriting for a squeeze page (or offline media) which has no need of search engine optimization and SEO copywriting, which does have more attention on the placement of keywords in elements other than the content - for example, the alt tags, meta tags, and title, which are SEO and marketing elements and not purely content.

You can call it content writing, too, that's okay with me ... but it is a different skill than straight copywriting ... more specialized.

Some of the top copywriters around, such as Robery Bly and Lorrie Ferrero, admittedly have no expertise in SEO copywriting; they call what they do marketing copy, I believe; and that a specialization, too.

I don't know about using wiki as a source, though ... it's fine to get a basic idea of a concept or term, but I wouldn't call it a definitive, reliable source.

Cheers, MJ