SEO for the WEB 2.0

[Peter (IMC)]

Websites aren't what they used to be anymore. If you want to keep up with modern technologies you need to focus on the WEB 2.0. But what does that mean for SEO? And how do search engine deal with sites that can be considered to be part of the WEB 2.0?

Basically the WEB 2.0 means interactivity with the visitors. The first technologies that you can consider to be WEB 2.0 were blogs. Now adding a video to your site isn't that strange anymore and there are many other options to create more interactivity with your visitors.

Does this change the world of SEO? Most SEO discussions are at the level of HTML code. Link building is considered a necessity but not so much liked as it is considered a very difficult and time consuming business. But at the same time, the influence of the WEB 2.0 is greatest in the area of link building.

The standard link building techniques (buying links, link exchanges and directory submissions) aren't that effective anymore. Pretty much its a big waste of time (except for submissions to some high quality directories). Links always were suppose to be a sign of popularity. Link popularity is suppose to be the result of having a popular website, not the result of placing links all over the place. Search engines are now getting so good at determining real (natural) link popularity that webmasters have to get back to basics.

Back to basics means: doing marketing, increasing the popularity of the website/company which results in more links to the website. The marketing step has been ignored for a long time because search engines couldn't tell the difference between links placed for SEO reasons and links that are the result of popularity. Now that they´re getting better at determining why a link was placed, the marketing step now needs to be included into the SEO strategy. Or if you prefer: marketing and SEO need to work together.

The WEB 2.0 makes it possible to do much more with a website. A company that combines marketing and SEO efforts to support each other, are the most successful in obtaining high rankings. This is becoming so obvious that it is almost impossible to ignore the WEB 2.0 for much longer. Websites that have enjoyed high rankings for years need to keep up with technology otherwise they may be passed by competition that does focus on the WEB 2.0. Marketing and SEO need to embrace each other, something that, in many cases, is not that easy as SEO is still often seen as something technical in which a marketing department can't do much. But the reality is that the most difficult thing in SEO, link building, in fact should be handled by the marketing department and not by the SEO.

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Websites that have enjoyed high rankings for years need to keep up with technology otherwise they may be passed by competition that does focus on the WEB 2.0. Marketing and SEO...

I wonder what ma & pa businesses that have websites and good rankings have to do to keep up with web 2.0 interactivity. Will they be pushed farther back in the serps? Ma & pa business/websites don't really have too much to offer with respect to interactivity with their users. Most of them are just offering an FYI website about their services and a contact form or two to get in contacts with them for service quotes...

is there going to be a middle ground?

[Peter (IMC)]

Luckily for the small businesses keeping up with new technology isn't that hard. My very simple and cheap cell phone can make videos for example, so adding something simple like a video on your website is not that complicated or expensive.

Just because you´re a "ma & pa" business, doesn't mean you have to run your business as if you live in the stone age.

[incrediblehelp]

So Peter what are you saying? Web 2.0 can help your SEO efforts? What do you define Web 2.0 as? Just using video on your website?

[chrisJumbo]

Peter gave two examples of Web 2.0, Blogs and Videos. Certainly, on-line games, AJAX, and more can add to the ability to interact with the visitors.

But, it also depends on the area you are marketing to. Some markets don't need the whiz and the bank. Some age groups don't want it either.

Whether it is a link you are after or a new client for what you offer, a personal contact (Face to face best, but not always possible), phone calls, etc. E-mail solications for new customers go largely unnoticed.

What ever you do, you have to be able to market yourself. Thankfully, our SEO efforts have paid off (up until this point) and I don't have to make tons of cold calls like I used to.

But, depending on your market, you may have to get down and dirty. Call the Government sites and non-profits, call the local CPAs, attorneys, write local press releases, etc., get those extra special links or other type of notice out there.

Getting in the the Myspaces, Facebooks, etc, can bring lots of traffic beyond the search engines. We haven't ventured there yet, but getting clients proberly found, trusted, etc. in those areas may very will be the next big SEO/SEM frontier. And it probably already is which will show you up to date I am. :O)

[incrediblehelp]

I must agree the longer you can keep a visit enticed with your website the better off you will be. Sure it wont directly help with organic SEO, but the links will come with happy visitors. So things like video, blogs, AJAX, etc can help just not directly.

[jtracking]

...ya and i guess for the ma and pa sites the main objective is to get them to convert into customers via contacting you, purchasing or calling you for your services...im thinking W2.0 has little do with this it as much as conversions do...

[subsystems]

I'm not so sure that WEB 2.0 concepts and mom & pop sites are really that seperate.
A mom & pop business selling wigits can benifit from user product ratings, user product reviews (highly moterated of course), video product demos, video how-tos, user product videos, user testimonials video and text, support forums, etc.

The main problem the mom & pops have is how to integrate all this into their online ordering software. Many software packages don't play well with others. Heck, some types of products don't even work well in most shopping website software. Like a single product that is offered in several colors or sizes and the different options are different prices. Most shopping cart systems choke on that ability and force the company to either create countless multiple product ids for the same item or use a less than friendly software package for some other reason. (Ex. A T-Shirt comes in Plain white $5, Red,Yellow or Blue $7, Silk Screened $12 and sizes 2X and above are $2 more. Does the software allow 1 product with several options on 1 page and adjust the price accordingly or like many, you have to create 6 different product ids and 6 different pages simply because the programmer only allowed 1 price per product id?) Now they have to try to find a package that will jump through WEB 2.0 hoops as well.

Most mom & pops can't go to this much effort to experiment with WEB 2.0 ideas.
When I suggested to 1 company whose owner had 43 years of experiance and is considered a top expert in their industry, that they should write 1 article a week to post on the article submission sites, she looked at me like I was insane. This was over a year ago. Artlces to date? Zero.

Eventhough I feel WEB 2.0 can benifit online shopping sites, it really won't happen with most until they see it as a necessity instead of a bell or whistle.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I must agree the longer you can keep a visit enticed with your website the better off you will be. Sure it wont directly help with organic SEO, but the links will come with happy visitors. So things like video, blogs, AJAX, etc can help just not directly.

That´s exactly the thing. The WEB 2.0 requires more "fun" for the website visitors. And that´s needed to get organic links. Like you say in your signature, Incredible: "Be the best and a link is what you'll get!" The WEB 2.0 gives you all the tools needed to be the best!

And those links are so incredebly valuable in any SEO strategy, that you can't simply create optimized HTML code and get the high rankings. Optimized code is mostly a requirement.

The reality is that if you don't keep up with technology, after a while you simply won't be the best anymore.

[bfrench]

>>> Websites aren't what they used to be anymore. <<<

While I agree that the definition of a "website" has changed (and likely will always be changing), there are some properites about online marketing that seem unchanged.

- Humans want good recommendations.
- Search engines must make good recommendations to make happy humans (e.g., to make money).
- Good content is fundamentally required to earn search (and human) recommendations.

Some Web 2.0 concepts provide ways to create better content, so it stands to reason that these new implementation details may be useful in creating competitive advantages over other companies that don't take advantage of Web 2.0 concepts or don't implement them in ways that create positive influence among search engines *and* humans.

Blogs are good examples - I doubt any customer has ever been disappointed to find a blog about a product or service that they were using. These are useful resources that extend the conversation and provide greater meaning and understanding between businesses and their clients.

[phx-keith]

One of the biggest benefits of blogging is social networking. You say links are hard to get and devalued. Links are difficult to get no doubt, however have you considered the 15 or 20 links you can get for every article you place on your blog by doing a book mark on the bookmarking sites?

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

So Peter what are you saying? Web 2.0 can help your SEO efforts? What do you define Web 2.0 as? Just using video on your website?

This question got me thinking for a while...

How much has on-site SEO changed since SEO has started?
How much has off-site SEO changed since SEO started?

Is there a relation between on-site SEO and off-site SEO?

There used to be little relation between on- and off-site SEO, or at least that´s how it has been applied by many. Because search engines are getting so good at understanding links, the relation between on- and off-site SEO has to be better and better every time. I remember Matt Cutts mentioning it in one of the many videos that are on the web of him (talk about WEB 2.0) that on the conferences he noticed much more focus on other ways to get people to a website than the usual high rankings way.

I'm saying that you can not ignore the WEB 2.0 because the real way of getting your site popular is now requiring the marketing step. In other words, link popularity goes up because your website/business is becoming more popular, and not the other way around.

A video in your site is an example of applying the WEB 2.0 in your website. As mentioned before, it depends on your market how much 2.0 you need to use.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by phx-keith

One of the biggest benefits of blogging is social networking. You say links are hard to get and devalued. Links are difficult to get no doubt, however have you considered the 15 or 20 links you can get for every article you place on your blog by doing a book mark on the bookmarking sites?

I guess you hit the nail on the head. WEB 2.0 (marketing) techniques help you get the links,..

[healthyfirst]

Offline, a ma-and-pa operation moves into town, and the best thing they can do to promote their new business is volunteer. Be visible, get to know folks, get known for being a helpful, down-to-earth kind of person.

The usual, Chamber of Commerce, Boy Scout troop leader, baseball team coach kind of stuff.

Be visible, let people see who you are and what you're about, see that you care about the community, and so on.

Web2.0 means even moms and pops can participate in forums, chats, Squidoo Groups, MySpace friends, Facebook, DirectMatches, and so forth, and make friends and business contacts.

Sure, the big cheeses get in on everything, but the web is huge, level playing field for all.

[MarcThai]

Originally Posted by chrisJumbo

Peter gave two examples of Web 2.0, Blogs and Videos. Certainly, on-line games, AJAX, and more can add to the ability to interact with the visitors.

But, it also depends on the area you are marketing to. Some markets don't need the whiz and the bank. Some age groups don't want it either.

Whether it is a link you are after or a new client for what you offer, a personal contact (Face to face best, but not always possible), phone calls, etc. E-mail solications for new customers go largely unnoticed.

What ever you do, you have to be able to market yourself. Thankfully, our SEO efforts have paid off (up until this point) and I don't have to make tons of cold calls like I used to.

But, depending on your market, you may have to get down and dirty. Call the Government sites and non-profits, call the local CPAs, attorneys, write local press releases, etc., get those extra special links or other type of notice out there.

Getting in the the Myspaces, Facebooks, etc, can bring lots of traffic beyond the search engines. We haven't ventured there yet, but getting clients proberly found, trusted, etc. in those areas may very will be the next big SEO/SEM frontier. And it probably already is which will show you up to date I am. :O)

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone here give me a quick synopsis of what AJAX is, please? I've run into it a few times but I have no idea what it is.

[danlefree]

Originally Posted by MarcThai

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone here give me a quick synopsis of what AJAX is, please? I've run into it a few times but I have no idea what it is.

AJAX is generally used to refer to applications which invoke Javascript to modify content on the page with asynchronous HTTP requests (that is, Javascript sends requests to the server for dynamically-generated content without forcing the visitor to load a new page).

The implications of AJAX for SEO are interesting, as I doubt that search engines will make it a priority to spider AJAX components (which would require simulating client-side Javascript parsing and interaction) - as it is unlikely that search engines will be able to index content locked behind AJAX navigation, it is worth noting that full-on AJAX applications should be reserved for the administrative backend of a web app and only used for trivial or otherwise-accessible content on the client-facing side of the app.

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by healthyfirst

...Web2.0 means even moms and pops can participate in forums, chats, Squidoo Groups, MySpace friends, Facebook, DirectMatches, and so forth, and make friends and business contacts...

I'm not too sure about that. for instance i have a friend whom he and his father own a floor tiling and hardwood floor business. I have approached them several times about the idea of getting a website together to promote their services in our region.

they're basically not interested and and have no idea how to use a computer. If I were to convince them to throw up a pretty decent seo'd site which would give the browser simple information about what they do and provide a contact form for online quotes - are you saying that if they didn't engage in forums, chats, Squidoo Groups, MySpace friends, Facebook, DirectMatches and so forth, in the future of 'W2.0' they could never bubble at the top of the SERPS?

There is still going to be very different types of websites out there for a very long time - whether they'll be W2.0 type sites, simple FYI sites, forums, chats or Blogs and each of them are all going to get #1 rankings from time to time and/or beat each other out...

We can't expect people who don't get involved in forums, chats, Squidoo Groups, MySpace friends, Facebook, DirectMatches and so forth but want to website to give their clients a little information about their services to get stuck in the back alleys of the search engines...

Forgive me if I missunderstood what you were implying...

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by jtracking

...Forgive me if I missunderstood what you were implying...

OK let me try and be more clear.

For instance - a maid service website - the person searching for a maid service website hopes to find about 2 maybe three peices of information and as quickly and easily as possible, namely, a little bit of info about the company, where they serve, how long they've been in business and a link to where they can get an online quote so they can hurry off and check their email or visit digg.com.

Anything other than this, like videos, chats, blog or just plain web2.0'ish stuff will only drive the customer seeking a maid service away...now, will the search engines take the opportunity away from that particular searcher/customer in finding a good local maid service only because that website does not have w2.0 enhancements? Will that maid service website get lesser rankings because it didn't offer a video?

I understand that if there was a maid service website out there that DID have web2.0 enhancements and offered something SO SPECIAL that it got all kinds of links to it from so many other sites it would/could bubble at the top but that doesn't mean they'll get the calls or the email quotes...

I just feel that the search engines are going to be able to differentiate between web 2.0 websites that SHOULD be web 2.0 enhanced compared to the maid service, brick layers, car repairs, moving company type websites that we'll always see and need on the web...

just my take...

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by jtracking

OK let me try and be more clear.

For instance - a maid service website - the person searching for a maid service website hopes to find about 2 maybe three peices of information, namely, a little bit of info about the company, where they serve, how long they've been in business and a link to where they can get an online quote.

Anything other than this, like videos, chats, blog or just plain web2.0'ish stuff will only drive the customer away...now, will the search engines take the opportunity away from that particular searcher/customer in finding a good local maid service only because that website does not have w2.0 enhancements? Will that maid service website get lesser rankings because it didn't offer a video?

I understand that if there was a maid service website out there that DID have web2.0 enhancements and offered something SO SPECIAL that it got all kinds of links to it from so many other sites it would/could bubble at the top but that doesn't mean they'll get the calls or the email quotes...

I just feel that the search engines are going to be able to differentiate between web 2.0 websites that SHOULD be web 2.0 enhanced compared to the maid service, brick layers, car repairs, moving company type websites that we'll always see and need on the web...

just my take...

I think you´re seeing problems where there aren't any problems. Your local maid service for example. Since you´re not going to be interested in a maid that has to travel 250 miles to get to your house, the competition for these kind of phrases will be very small. Therefore search engines will still give you the simple "ma & pa" website in the top 10.

However, if you live in New York City where there are so many people that it is likely to also have hundreds of local maid services, you need to do a bit more than just state your business. But then again, in New York City, the companies that have these kind of services need to do a lot more promotion anyway. Whether that is offline or online, doesn't really matter. And imagine how cool it is to have each maid present her self in a short video. Or to show that you deliver services to the higher class neighborhoods,... I don't know,.. the more competition there is, the more creative people will be.

So it's more about competition than it is about how small a business is.

[espectations]

In South Africa the use of blogs are only taking off now - this, after my clients have been blogging for 3 years already. Awareness is currently driven by the radio stations.....

You will never get away from marketing principles where you need to analyse your target market and do your geographics and demographics and from a sales point of view analyse your clients' needs in order to sell products or services to them that satisfy those needs.

In the USA for example, it is very easy seeing that you guys have great bandwidth so the uses of video and pod casts are common. In South Africa, for example, a great percentage of the population still use dial-up accounts - I am talking about 56K modems.....

Would someone sit and wait for a video to stream on a 56K modem while we pay the highest telecoms fees in the world???? I doubt it very much.

Computer literacy also comes into play - over here a big percentage of the 44 million odd people living in South Africa still do not know how to switch on a computer let a lone leave a customer referral on a blog.

We see great changes in South Africa with mobile technologies and HSDPA and 3G is making life easier - telecoms are becoming cheaper - very slowly but surely.

We did some video clips back in 2000 of travel companies and placed it on local web sites. From the stats it was apparent that only the International clients looked at it. Back then it already made a difference as the International traveller could see what the lodge and surroundings looked like before they booked. We did, however not enjoy the success with the video clips we wanted - I guess we were a bit ahead of time....

If we repeat the same exercise now, however, combine it with a blog and maybe do some pod casts about happenings at the same lodge we might just have a booming business - come to think of it, it would be interesting to see what happens if we do just that.

I think the bottom line here is that on-page and off-page SEO has much more to do with marketing than what we think. At this stage my clients are enjoying great success and I would like to believe that it is not just the use of ethical techniques but the convergence between online marketing, SEO and SEP principles that I apply to their sites.

None of them are doing advertising so their organic listing results are purely a result from the work I do for them.

So in this case I would agree with Peter but just add that the use of Web 2.0 technologies also depend on target markets and the end user accessibility to technology and computer literacy.

In the case of mom and pop sites - well, if I have to do the marketing of such a site the target market will be different from that of a corporate site and the strategy to reach their target market will therefore differ.

In my days as International sales manager we referred to it as need/satisfaction selling - I think with marketing the same applies. You cannot get away from customizing marketing plans anymore as the target markets differ too much.

There is just no recipe that applies to all so it takes more effort from the marketing consultant to come up with creative marketing plans based on clients' needs.

[juliemarg]

ma & pa don't need the whole world -- they just need local search. And I don't think local search prioritizes web 2.0 type searches. Get yourself a website, buy a logo link on yellowpages.com (it gets you into yahoo & aol) sign up for google local business center, have a couple satisfied customers who understand computers give you 5 stars on yahoo & yelp and you're in good shape. That's one paid link for rougly $50 to 75 per month. If verizon or quest is the phone company in your area, buy a link from them also.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

The standard link building techniques (buying links, link exchanges and directory submissions) aren't that effective anymore. Pretty much its a big waste of time (except for submissions to some high quality directories). Links always were suppose to be a sign of popularity. Link popularity is suppose to be the result of having a popular website, not the result of placing links all over the place. Search engines are now getting so good at determining real (natural) link popularity that webmasters have to get back to basics.

The standard linking model was "wrong" from the very start. XML and related technologies like XLink have the potential to revolutionize web linking.

Related link: AJAX and SEO.

Note:
The web 1.0 model is more than good enough for (static) brochure, Ad, article and information pages.

Note also:
That HTML is a bad dialect of XML.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Luckily for the small businesses keeping up with new technology isn't that hard. My very simple and cheap cell phone can make videos for example, so adding something simple like a video on your website is not that complicated or expensive.

Just because you´re a "ma & pa" business, doesn't mean you have to run your business as if you live in the stone age.

Yes, you can read more here: The mobile revolution.

And it is not difficult to make your own professional movies / videos. Note that Adobe - Premiere Pro CS3, Video Editing Software, Film Editing, Digital Video Editing that is launched these days will take video editing a significant step further. My youngest daughter makes her own movies, and these days she asked if I could buy an Apple - Mac Pro to her since there are things that she can not do with a Pc and Windows movie maker.

[Veikoh]

I think you will all miss the point what I have tried to tell several times. Google is testing personalized search which means, that search results are based on end user previous click preferences. This means, that you can be no1 in your search (if you always click to your link), but not others. Mobile search engines are implementing same approach as they can only deliver 5-10 result per search.
So, how can you monitor your rankings then?

Veiko
Veiko Herne – lifetime entrepreneur with adventurous soul

[TrafficProducer]

Search engines are now getting so good at determining real (natural) link popularity that webmasters have to get back to basics.

Google is said to be clamping down on Paid Links.

Two cents worth: Web 2.00 SEO... I think the magic word is interaction.

This allows users to almost create their own content, (maybe the way they whould like), this drives the traffic to a site....

Visits from Adding new content, users visiting to view content, the user changing content, the user telling others to look at their content on the site bringing more visits, etc....

One issue is just what are users posting, is it legal, etc.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by Veikoh

I think you will all miss the point what I have tried to tell several times. Google is testing personalized search which means, that search results are based on end user previous click preferences. This means, that you can be no1 in your search (if you always click to your link), but not others. Mobile search engines are implementing same approach as they can only deliver 5-10 result per search.
So, how can you monitor your rankings then?

Monitoring rankings, (at least in our company) is a thing of the past. We´re much more interested in the traffic. That´s why we start monitoring traffic (Google Analytics) even before we start optimizing. The optimization work is often a month or 2 work (static websites) and that gives us enough information to show the results of our work. Generally that means at an increase of the number of keywords a site is found for (generally more than 10 times than before) and a increase in the number of visitors most clients previously only could dream of.