To SEO or Not to SEO?

[ArthurNYC]

I have heard horror stories (ok really just some bad experiences not so much horror) about SEO firms (large and small) and not getting results that are expected (realistic or unrealistic). So if you have a significant "size" network of websites, is it worth bringing this in house?

In our case, we own a network of review sites (everything from software to online dating) with about 40 categories (8-10 reviews per) currently which will grow to 100 categories by the end of the year. It is all unique content and we have an in house writer that simply writes articles to add to the review content. From my limited SEO experience, this should be a gimme for an SEO company or person.

So the question is, do we roll the dice on a contract with an SEO company or seek out a full time person to bring in house. I know results of any sort are 2-4 months away and significant results can be 6-9 months.

I would like to hear any thoughts from anybody or any company that has done either side of this equation.

Thanks,

Arthur

[SemAdvance]

From a business and seo perspective you should have hired the SEO prior to building your first site.

A poorly designed and coded website will typically not perform well in the organic results. An SEO could have advised the best way to design the site as well as other important aspects needed that are better done before than after.

Given that free traffic can continue on for years when SEO is done correctly the long term ROI would indicate that this is an effort that should be done.

It should be a part of your total advertising package. You do not want to build a business on a search engine that might not find your site one day and dump your rankings & revenues.

I would start with one site and see where things go from there. No need to sign a contract unless you like the work the person or company is doing.

Most SEOs who can do the actual work and obtain the results you want are not going to accept a position of employment as often the firm needs them more than they need the firm.

Hope this helps.

[duker665]

good point, I would think the problem is most people looking for SEO already have there site built

[dvduval]

The big problem is when someone over uses one SEO technique:
Doing too many link exchanges
Doing too much interlinking between sites
Spamming a bunch or forums or blogs

And above all, everyone is in a hurry. SEO needs to "slow cook" in order to achieve the best entree.

[fctoma]

I've come into companies with sites built and no SEO applied. I've come into a company that I work for and have learned from scratch. BOTH companies have acheived 1-5 rankings within a few months, non HAD to hire an SEO firm.

There are toooooo many bogus, and full of sh*t SEO firms out there trying to make an easy buck. My suggestion is go to one of the SES, SMX, or other web marketing conferences and start reading. Their is no need to pay an SEO firm to do what you're capable of.

Crappy site design? Come on, we all know that really doesn't have much to do with Jack these days...right? Look at the spammy blogs that are popping up in the top SERPs now. Most of them, the code doesn't even start until line 500 or so. Its links, and other minor things along with a "trusted site". Basic, not a secret, and anyone in house can do this for a company.

[weslinda]

Discuss contracts with your potential SEO vendors. Find someone that might be willing to put their name on the long term success options. Part of their pay is based on results. Obviously, no one will work for free for 6-9 months, but offering a solution that meets in the middle might get you what you are looking for.

The idea of bringing someone in house can be expensive, especially to get someone that really knows what they are doing. You're easily looking at $50k a year or more, for someone really versed in SEO.

Before entering into a contract, get a game plan from the SEO. What they feel you should do, and how you should attack it. Get a full proposal from them. They might charge for it, but at least you have a guide of what their approach is and you'll have measureable items to follow as you move forward. And anyone that promises overnight success, just run. As DVDUVAL shares, the slow cook approach is the only approach if you want things done right.

[webreporter]

I recommend hiring an SEO to consult your company, then training one or more of your employees to do the work. Consultation will not cost nearly as much as either hiring a firm or taking on a full time employee.

It sounds as if some of your staff already have basic web design down, so having them do SEO will just be more of their overall function. There really is no magic trick to SEO. It starts with English 101 and goes up from there.

Besides, getting other webmasters to put links pointing to your site doesn't take genius, just persistence. Google's number one criteria for measuring your site's worth is how popular it is. Optimization is a secondary consideration to them.

[SemAdvance]

Originally Posted by fctoma

I've come into companies with sites built and no SEO applied. I've come into a company that I work for and have learned from scratch. BOTH companies have acheived 1-5 rankings within a few months, non HAD to hire an SEO firm.

There are toooooo many bogus, and full of sh*t SEO firms out there trying to make an easy buck. My suggestion is go to one of the SES, SMX, or other web marketing conferences and start reading. Their is no need to pay an SEO firm to do what you're capable of.

Crappy site design? Come on, we all know that really doesn't have much to do with Jack these days...right? Look at the spammy blogs that are popping up in the top SERPs now. Most of them, the code doesn't even start until line 500 or so. Its links, and other minor things along with a "trusted site". Basic, not a secret, and anyone in house can do this for a company.

Well there is the easy way of doing things and the wrong way.

Also many claim success for top rankings but keyword terms like "blue widgets in mozambique" are not the typical competitive fare most viable businesses are looking to rank well for.

Next you advise a business owner with a full plate, to now become well versed on SEO? Some people love being something other than an SEO.....what do you love doing?

Further crappy design has little to do with rankings and more to do with conversions and time on page, which I am sure you know the search engines do measure????

I am not sure how much of the algorithmic part of obtaining competitive # 1 # 2 rankings on Google Msn & Yahoo month to month year after year that you are aware of but this comes into play as well.

While there are those who can earn high fees doing SEO there are plenty of SEOs who tie a portion of their revenues into the campaign succes, with a company they do SEO for, and they earn a lucrative revenue stream for themselves.

;->

Peace

[MikeinFlorida]

SemAdvance REally has the answer! People who are really great I mean EXCELLENT at seo either don't work for others or just do there own thing and simply are not employees except on very rare occassions. The last thing these folks usually want to do is go to an office where they have to wear a tie!

Why not just hire someone to try them out at first on a free lance basis?

Good luck!

[jackit_chick]

Read!
That's what I did and we're in the top ten for most of our main keywords on google, some yahoo and msn as well. Read books like Google The Missing Manual (it was more current when I read it, maybe they made a new one) and posts and other books like that. That way before you dive into it, you know everything that's going on in the background.

SEO is not some God that says "I CHOOSE YOU WEBSITE #12 TO NOW BE #1" yaaaaaay. No, it's just code (aka algorithms)! So understanding how to get that code to read what you want it to and see what you want it to, will really help you out in learning SEO.

If you have an employee that doesn't have enough to do, have them do that. If all your employees are always busy or behind, then I recommend hiring a freelance SEO. Either way, you can ask more intelligent questions to the guy doing your SEO if you read up on it.

[pdstein]

Originally Posted by webreporter

I recommend hiring an SEO to consult your company, then training one or more of your employees to do the work. Consultation will not cost nearly as much as either hiring a firm or taking on a full time employee.

It sounds as if some of your staff already have basic web design down, so having them do SEO will just be more of their overall function. There really is no magic trick to SEO. It starts with English 101 and goes up from there.

I would tend agree with this strategy, however, I'm curious to know how you currently publish your sites? Are they done with a CMS, web development software like Dreamweaver, outsourced, or hand-coded? How your web pages are being published will impact who and how the SEO is best done.

[dpi]

I will admit, I am at a total loss when it comes to SEO. I have been doing websites for years, and have spent a lot of time trying to figure SEO out. I still have no better luck with search engines than I did when I started out. I have looked up every possible technique online, and even gone the pay per click route with Google ad words, but still with no luck. While the Ad Words claimed visitors were sent my way (reflected in the amount of money I paid every month) I still didnt see any of those clicks convert to sales on my site.

The only sites I have that are actually making there way up rank in the search engines are sites I havent even bothered trying to optimize. I have several learning sites (TheRenderFarm.com and 3Dhelp.com if anyone is interested. The more content I add to each, and more importantly, the more detailed I get with descriptions on downloads and links, the more I am getting recognized in search engines. While neither is extremely high ranking right now, they are doing better than most of my other sites that I have spent countless hours trying to get people to find them.

Another thing I noticed in terms of sites who are linking to my sites, are that most are not listed in the Google links tool. In fact, most of the links that do come up, come from posts I have made in forums that included a site address. For sites that consider placing links in posts as "spamming" or unathorized advertising (I am hoping WebPro doesn't feel this way) a simple link in your signature works just as good. Especially if you post a lot in forums. This, at least it seems, gives your site more valied outside links, and helps the ranking.

Again, I am not an SEO expert, and I don't want to be. I really don't have that much time on my hands. But Just a few things I noticed in my journey through the wonderful world of the web. If anyone has any free advice, I am willing to take it.

Oh, and by the way:
GraphicWorx.us | Website Templates, Clipart, Ads, Flash, Logos & FREE Stuff
ModelWorx | 3D Models
TextureWorx | Textures, backgrounds, and more
Swift Imprints - Promotional Items - Home
DPI - Graphic Design, Web Design, Animation, Production, Photography - Home

Thanks WebProWorld!

Cory Wright
dpi

[auxic]

I would chime in with a "get a freelancer" to start with. Do some research on their past results but have them do a round one SEO workup on your website, track a batch of desired key terms for 3-4 months then evaluate if you need or want a second round or additional sites done.

SEO is a learned art but the quality content is key.

[ArthurNYC]

Other than my basic, very basic SEO knowledge, my non-SEO programmers did the sites internall .net, sql, css ....

I have been trying to work with some of the tools around to "clean up" what we have done but the bottom line is that we have a pretty big network of sites and a significant investment into them and while they obviously make money for the company with other marketing initiatives, SEO seems like such a natural (no pun intended) for this type of site. Am I correct in saying that fresh content, unique content and lots of targeted content are key factors in successful SEO?

We don't have time to reinvent the wheel that is the interest in bringing someone, some company, some consultant on to "tell us what to do". We can handle the grunt work ... but my travels have not found many companies, or bigger name companies, willing to consult as much as come in and take over.

So it seems to me that this group favors individuals/consultants rather than the bigger SEO firms ...

Thanks,

Arthur


PS: jackit_chick - so have I been wasting my time with the SEO prayers everynight before bedtime?

[flyingspider]

With SEO, past result offers no guarantee of future result.

Why?

Search engines are always looking for new ways to "improve" search results for the users.
With this in mind, an SEO firm showing previously successful campaign from 6 months ago may not work today for your website.

Arguably, you might want to consider a firm that approaches the SEO campaign with a comprehensive strategy which could involved social network, article writing, link exchanges, and one-to-one lead generation with other websites to name a few.

Most companies that hired freelance SEO failed because they are not aware that the SEO firms are using old school tactics which may involved black-hat techniques. So its important to find out exactly what it is that the SEO firm will be doing to achieve a first page result.

The whole purpose of SEO is to generate sustainable targeted leads for free. Its not really free when you considered the cost of an SEO firm, but the long term strategy will benefit your website enormously.

In most case, you can negotiate a compensation structure based upon the results achieved. For example, get "websiteABC.com" into the first page and I will pay X amount of dollar per month.

For our clients, we prefer to impress them with results. Pay 50% of the month fee each month and when we achieved results within a predetermined time period -- the balance will be due.

And yes, some keywords may require a 6 or 12 months agreement. I'd liked to refer to SEO as the slow cooking BBQ baby back ribs.

Patience in SEO is a prerequisite.

Have yourself a wonderful day.

[dburdon]

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

So the question is, do we roll the dice on a contract with an SEO company or seek out a full time person to bring in house.
I

Arthur,

a very valid question. My answer would be based on risk and cost/benefit.

1. What are the risks in employing someone versus hiring and SEO agent?
2. What are the anticipated cost/benefits of employing versus hiring?

In most jurisdictions employment risks are rising. Secondly the "on costs" of employment are growing faster than base salaries.

18 months ago I was asked to pitch for some business. My quote totaled £15,000 ($30,000) year 1 and £12,000 ($24,000) year 2. The company decided to employ an in-house person, who has subsequently taken on 3 assistants. Headline salary costs now amount to £80,000 ($160,000) and you can probably double that for total costs.
Had the client gone down the agency route exit costs are minimal. Secondly, agency skills are market tested. If an agency stops producing class leading results it soon loses business. A client employee is difficult to get rid of. If the client decides to slim down and hire an agency, employment law means the exit costs will amount to anything between 3 and 6 months of salary costs.

As an SEO agency I have a biased opinion but I'd recommend you go external.

[SemAdvance]

Originally Posted by pdstein

I would tend agree with this strategy, however, I'm curious to know how you currently publish your sites? Are they done with a CMS, web development software like Dreamweaver, outsourced, or hand-coded? How your web pages are being published will impact who and how the SEO is best done.

This often depends on the business. Many times I find potential clients such as a small real estate firm having sites developed in a CMS with a single header file, this hurts the client, more often than it helps. A small site is best built in css and xhtml as these are what I find the easiest to rank at the top, no matter how competitive the keyword term. Each should have it's own meta data.

Now if you are CNN or CNBC etc where you actually 'publish content" then you need a CMS. When using a CMS companies should ensure that each page has its own meta data tags otherwise all the SEO in the world will not help.

Another thing to remember with SEO is a weakness in one area, can be over come by pushing other areas to their max.

Originally Posted by dpi

I will admit, I am at a total loss when it comes to SEO. I have been doing websites for years, and have spent a lot of time trying to figure SEO out. I still have no better luck with search engines than I did when I started out. I have looked up every possible technique online, and even gone the pay per click route with Google ad words, but still with no luck. While the Ad Words claimed visitors were sent my way (reflected in the amount of money I paid every month) I still didnt see any of those clicks convert to sales on my site.

The only sites I have that are actually making there way up rank in the search engines are sites I havent even bothered trying to optimize. I have several learning sites (TheRenderFarm.com and 3Dhelp.com if anyone is interested. The more content I add to each, and more importantly, the more detailed I get with descriptions on downloads and links, the more I am getting recognized in search engines. While neither is extremely high ranking right now, they are doing better than most of my other sites that I have spent countless hours trying to get people to find them.

Another thing I noticed in terms of sites who are linking to my sites, are that most are not listed in the Google links tool. In fact, most of the links that do come up, come from posts I have made in forums that included a site address. For sites that consider placing links in posts as "spamming" or unathorized advertising (I am hoping WebPro doesn't feel this way) a simple link in your signature works just as good. Especially if you post a lot in forums. This, at least it seems, gives your site more valied outside links, and helps the ranking.

Again, I am not an SEO expert, and I don't want to be. I really don't have that much time on my hands. But Just a few things I noticed in my journey through the wonderful world of the web. If anyone has any free advice, I am willing to take it.

Oh, and by the way:
GraphicWorx.us | Website Templates, Clipart, Ads, Flash, Logos & FREE Stuff
ModelWorx | 3D Models
TextureWorx | Textures, backgrounds, and more
Swift Imprints - Promotional Items - Home
DPI - Graphic Design, Web Design, Animation, Production, Photography - Home

Thanks WebProWorld!

Cory Wright
dpi

Cory the one page websites such as renderfarm and 3dhelp are not going to do well in the search engines for one main reason.

Google likes sites to be authority on their topic, to be an authority you need to have a lot of pages of valuable information. ( as you have seen with the sites you add content to but are not optimized.

Beyond the SEO 101 that should be done for all sites the main thing needed to rank well is time, a natural approach as opposed to artificial (overt link schemes) and a few good quality one way links.

The thing that hurts your sites like swiftimprints.com is the very thing I noted to pdstein above in that your pages all have the same <title> tag to some extent, for example your mugs page title is

<title>Swift Imprints - Promotional Items - Mugs</title>

when it should be

<title>Mugs Promotional Items Swift Imprints</title>

Your primary keyword should be the first term in the <title> tag

If you are not a household name your brand should be at the end as this will not be the keyword searched for very often.

Your meta description uses the same content page to page it seems so this hurts you in the rankings war as well.

Hope this helps.

Peace!

[visser]

Hi Arthur,

I've been watching WPW newsletters for months and finally given in to signing up!

I hope to clear up some issues of yours, one at a time, regarding on-page Search Engine Optimisation as well as any Search Engine Marketing campaigns to generate competitive organic traffic.

Arthur: "Other than my basic, very basic SEO knowledge, my non-SEO programmers did the sites internall .net, sql, css ...."

The SEOmoz community have generated a Google Search Engine Ranking Factors report (compiled and reviewed by the guns of SEO) to help explain what areas of a website can be optimised and it's weight by Google in determining your Search Engine Result Page listing. It's an excellent read and a primer of what services to expect from a professional SEO contract.

Arthur: "We don't have time to reinvent the wheel that is the interest in bringing someone, some company, some consultant on to "tell us what to do". We can handle the grunt work ..."

Site optimisation is very much determined by hands on expert knowledge, this is my argument against just SEO consultation. Until you step aside and let a respected company take over (a) your content (b) your CMS (c) your infrastructure you will not achieve your potential. I experience this every day within my own web production environment.

(a) Content will include headers, key term saturation, images as well as interlinking of site articles (minimum).
(b) The content markup generated by your CMS will be optimised by ensuring W3C compliant markup (eg. P, UL, LI, H1 - H6, etc.) as well as keyword optimised URI's as minimum.
(c) At an infrastructure will include:
- ensuring template markup is W3C compliant
- recommendations to move hosting servers within Australia if you are targeting
- ensuring correct server responses (200, 301, 302, etc.)
Australians (this is called 'localised search')

*cracking fingers* That's a good idea of what to expect... finally...

Arthur: "I have been trying to work with some of the tools around to "clean up" what we have done"

Running paid-tools (at a very simple level... keyword generators, meta generators, inbound link farms, etc.) on your site is only throwing spanners in the works when a consultant does come in to shake things up.

Hope this helps!

[visser]

Originally Posted by dburdon

Arthur,

1. What are the risks in employing someone versus hiring and SEO agent?
2. What are the anticipated cost/benefits of employing versus hiring?

These are valid questions, are there SEO'ers within the employee market place? Here in Brisbane the supply of quality SEO'ers is about as deep as our dam levels (high and dry).

Originally Posted by dburdon

Secondly, agency skills are market tested. If an agency stops producing class leading results it soon loses business.

Completely agree here, be sure to look at existing client sites as well as receiving a complimentary performance report if possible.

Originally Posted by dburdon

A client employee is difficult to get rid of.

Difficult to train up not to mention! Additional costs will include offline conferences and regular workshops provided by agencies just to keep up with their trends and practices.

I find agencies also have more time on their hands to build time-tested tool-kits that are replicated across client sites.

[dpi]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

Cory the one page websites such as renderfarm and 3dhelp are not going to do well in the search engines for one main reason.

Thanks for the tips. Actually, 3Dhelp.com and TheRenderfarm are bad examples. 3Dhelp isnt even finished, and as of now I guess is just a one pager, with a link to the actually site in there (I know, why not just have the full site show up) But I am unsure what you mean by TheRenderFarm being a one pager? There are thousands of items in that site? Does it hurt me that the index.html is a redirect to the /home/index.php homepage?

I have also heard through online resources that Google and other search engines dont care for PHP sites? Seeing that most every site I do is PHP based, is this true?

Thanks again, great help.

Cory
dpi

[visser]

Originally Posted by dpi

But I am unsure what you mean by TheRenderFarm being a one pager? There are thousands of items in that site? Does it hurt me that the index.html is a redirect to the /home/index.php homepage?

Unless you are getting inbound links from visitors search spiders cannot index your site as you are using a Javascript redirect to /home/. Site crawlers do not support Javascript and many do not support meta refresh redirection. This needs to be a 301 Permanent Redirect. Why does it need to be /home/. Can't you just make it the root level?

You can see this Javascript by typing in GraphicWorx and stopping the browser as it loads (white screen) then viewing the page source:
<script language="javascript"><!--
location.replace("http://www.therenderfarm.com/home")
//-->
</script>

Originally Posted by dpi

I have also heard through online resources that Google and other search engines dont care for PHP sites? Seeing that most every site I do is PHP based, is this true?
dpi

You have put this across vaguely (can you provide the referring source?) so there are several possible explanations as to why Google or any search engine might penalise a page.

(a) You have too many variables or are using session IDs within your page URI's (eg. /page.php?id=1024&sessionid=a3j4nts34j&locality=EN_ AU&referral=sputnik.nl...), Google Webmaster Guidelines state on this subject:

"Allow search bots to crawl your sites without session IDs or arguments that track their path through the site. These techniques are useful for tracking individual user behavior, but the access pattern of bots is entirely different. Using these techniques may result in incomplete indexing of your site, as bots may not be able to eliminate URLs that look different but actually point to the same page." - Webmaster Help Center

(b) Your server is not correctly responding to browser requests (eg. no 200 Okay responses or 404 Page Not Found). Fixing this may include redirecting client browsers to a search page via a 301 Permanent Redirect when a 404 Page Not Found error is encountered.

(c) This is separate to hosting platforms or even markup but ensuring that your site loading performance is optimal is important to site crawlers. This means reducing server-side scripting to render the page out faster to browsers.

Back to work!

[pdstein]

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

Other than my basic, very basic SEO knowledge, my non-SEO programmers did the sites internall .net, sql, css ....

I have been trying to work with some of the tools around to "clean up" what we have done but the bottom line is that we have a pretty big network of sites and a significant investment into them and while they obviously make money for the company with other marketing initiatives, SEO seems like such a natural (no pun intended) for this type of site. Am I correct in saying that fresh content, unique content and lots of targeted content are key factors in successful SEO?

We don't have time to reinvent the wheel that is the interest in bringing someone, some company, some consultant on to "tell us what to do". We can handle the grunt work ... but my travels have not found many companies, or bigger name companies, willing to consult as much as come in and take over.

I hear you. You don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel, but if you want to optimize your pages, you need to be sure whatever system you're using gives you contol over the elements of the page that need to be optimized.

For example, if you're programmers developed your sites to automatically create the title tag for each page by pulling the name of the product/service of the review from a database instead of giving you control to set the title tag for each page independently, then you're going to limit your ability to target the keywords you want.

Other aspects of your website like the structure of the site, the way the navigation menus are done, and the directory and file naming also impact your search rankings.

So, what you need to do is learn about the various things that factor in to search rankings. Then evaluate whether your current system gives you the ability to make them optimal. Or you need to pay an SEO consultant to make that evaluation. It could be that your current system is fine, or it could be that it only requires minor changes which your programmers can take care of, or it could need a major overhaul in order to be optimized which would leave you with a tough choice to make.

But the bottom line is you first have to have an optimizable system in place before you can even start optimizing.

So it seems to me that this group favors individuals/consultants rather than the bigger SEO firms ...

Hmmm... I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that most of the people here are individual consultants or work in small SEO firms.

[Peter (IMC)]

So the question is, do we roll the dice on a contract with an SEO company or seek out a full time person to bring in house. I know results of any sort are 2-4 months away and significant results can be 6-9 months.

If you can afford it, get a person in house. An SEO company will not work on your website 40 hours a week. Also keep in mind that an SEO company can not update your content. They´re not specialists in your market. You have to do that yourself, with or without an SEO company. Make this person webmaster/SEO'er so that the person updating your site(s) knows about SEO and will do everything that´s required to make sure your pages are optimized.

Am I correct in saying that fresh content, unique content and lots of targeted content are key factors in successful SEO?

It´s about the most powerful thing there is if you do it right. Just today I had a perfect example of how fresh content can boost your website. A client added a news article because they had done all the furniture rental for most of the events related to the visit of the pope to brazil. The title of the article contained the phrase "furniture for the events of the pope's visit to brazil" (of course in portuguese but to make this an easy read I translated it )

A very important keyword phrase for this company is "furniture for events". Guess what,.. after this news item was indexed it hit the SERP's in position 3. They didn't have a page yet for this phrase and now they don't need one,.. (though I advised them to do create a page for it and link from the news page to it.)

Content is King (I know it´s an old phrase but its still true,. )

[Peter (IMC)]

Hmmm... I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that most of the people here are individual consultants or work in small SEO firms.

Well, my company has about 10 employees (of which 5 work directly for SEO clients, + 2 sales people and we have 3 programmers). I don't know if that's small or big in SEO company terms, but I'd definitely advise to do SEO in house if you can. There simply are too many benefits. If you do adwords, this person can also manage and optimize your adwords account. you´ll be surprised how much you can gain by optimizing your adwords campaigns (and that includes landing pages which also need to be optimized in order to decrease your costs per click and increase your conversion rates.)

Added:

Oh And allow this person to spend time in forums like this one. SEO is a lot about keeping yourself updated and learning from the experiences of others...

[weslinda]

I don't think anyone here is against the big SEO firms, I simply think that most businesses can afford them.

I think that many of the factors in bringing someone must be reviewed. Does the person understand the systems you are using? Do they know your business? Do they have training and experience in SEO? What happens if you need to part ways from a budget standpoint?

There are lots of things to think about. Do your research, and do what is best for your company. Weigh the pros and cons on each and see which has the best answer for your company.

[edhan]

Personally, when I build a site, I would first focus on creating quality content for visitors rather than SEO. Maintaining a good and quality content site is what visitors are looking for. Of course if you do have knowledge of SEO, it can be apply concurrently while building up the site, if not, then just concentrate on site building. Having knowledge of SEO or someone that has it will be the best of both world. If not, I do believe that building a quality content site should be the direction to go. Thereafter, you can inject SEO to further improve traffic from SE.

[MarcGrobman]

I agree that a combo of hiring a consultant and in-house training would be your best bet. It sounds like the core of your business is getting visitors -- you really ought to have that expertise integreated into how you do business -- how you write, how you update the site, the kind of advertising you do, everything.

That said, it is easy for a novice to really mess up. I have many times. You want to make sure you are just doing good basic SEO work, not gaming the system. The tricks and scams change all the time and will just get you banned. But the basics: Good title tags, alt text on images, followable urls, researching the best keywords, are things a good reputable SEO can get you on the right track.

After that... truly the best SEO work you can do is to write good stuff and do good work. You'll get your links and rank.

[espectations]

SEO does not go without SEM strategies. You could have the best optimised site in the world but if there is no targeted strategy that address your target markets driving traffic to the optimised site your site will not rank organically.

I also saw a comment here about blogs - just remember that a blog is not a web site - it uses push-button technology used nowadays for community, news building and other purposes it is an element of Web 2.0 - I do not think it will ever replace a properly optimised, code validated web site with a proper marketing strategy.

In my personal opinion, blogs rank high regardless of their validation, seo etc. due to the fresh content that they bring to the net and the community building opportunities they present.

[visser]

Originally Posted by edhan

... I do believe that building a quality content site should be the direction to go. Thereafter, you can inject SEO to further improve traffic from SE.

I find this after-the-fact approach to SEO to be very destructive and costs the client in both resources to in often case rewrite the existing content to include key terms and acceptable terms saturation as well as apply redirections for updated file-names (eg. /articles/how-to-build-an-seo-site.html -> /articles/howto-building-seo-sites.html).

SEO is so much more than just cleaning up a mess and walking away, it is an integral part of a websites life cycle from keyword research before writing content all the way through to maintaining effective page interlinks to less-valued content. Ignoring this relationship undermines the industry and client returns.

Originally Posted by edhan

SEO does not go without SEM strategies. You could have the best optimised site in the world but if there is no targeted strategy that address your target markets driving traffic to the optimised site your site will not rank organically.

Bang on!

[Veikoh]

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

I have heard horror stories (ok really just some bad experiences not so much horror) about SEO firms (large and small) and not getting results that are expected (realistic or unrealistic). So if you have a significant "size" network of websites, is it worth bringing this in house?

In our case, we own a network of review sites (everything from software to online dating) with about 40 categories (8-10 reviews per) currently which will grow to 100 categories by the end of the year. It is all unique content and we have an in house writer that simply writes articles to add to the review content. From my limited SEO experience, this should be a gimme for an SEO company or person.

So the question is, do we roll the dice on a contract with an SEO company or seek out a full time person to bring in house. I know results of any sort are 2-4 months away and significant results can be 6-9 months.

I would like to hear any thoughts from anybody or any company that has done either side of this equation.

Thanks,

Arthur

If you have built your website properly and there is interest to your offerings, why you need a SEO? Somehow I have seen that persons to hire SEO have no clue, what keywords are hot, stuck with their narrow mind and demanding SEO to be first position in Google with irrelevant keywords. Google most important rank is how people are interested about your site, not doing some technical tricks. If no one clicks, you will loose your position anyway regarding the amount spent to SEO specialist. Why you think, it takes months to get your site interesting? I haven’t had any problems publishing something and getting no 1 after week or two? If you do not have anything to offer, why you should be in top position even after 6 month someone’s hard work?
I worked to develop first internet browser and search engines being in Science Academy during 1993-1997. What I have seen for now happening is some greedy businesses are just trying to make money of our creation, which we developed to benefit the humanity. I even wrote an article to my blog about the issue “Web Designers, Business Cards, SEO and stupidity”.

Veiko

[weslinda]

Are you serious? You think you can get to top ten on Google for a highly competetive keyword in a week or two just writing content?

[SemAdvance]

Originally Posted by Veikoh

I worked to develop first internet browser and search engines being in Science Academy during 1993-1997. What I have seen for now happening is some greedy businesses are just trying to make money of our creation, which we developed to benefit the humanity. I even wrote an article to my blog about the issue “Web Designers, Business Cards, SEO and stupidity”.

Veiko

Ummm the Internet was around back in 1985... when I first hopped online with a 1200 baud modem...

If I am not mistaken it was AOL that released the first browser in 1987 I believe, so a full decade before your unnamed browser you supposedly built for humanity.....

Sorry people decided to make money with the Internet(???)

[Veikoh]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Are you serious? You think you can get to top ten on Google for a highly competetive keyword in a week or two just writing content?

What is the highly competitive keyword? Better find something that nobody one else hasn’t figured out and people are searching? What goes for me, once I had "accounting" keyword for my financial accounting software. Being pissed off with "Sky Broadband", I just wrote an article to my blog. Type to google "sky broadband helpline number" for example, or better do from Sky.Com site typing "Sky Broadband problems". I never wanted those keywords, those just happened for me.

Veiko

[weslinda]

Sky Broadband Helpline Number? Are you serious? Put "sky broadband helpline number" in Google and you get no results if you use the "'s. Without the "'s you get a whopping total of less than 40k pages, woopeeee. That isn't top rankings. These aren't highly competetive keywords.

Show me your skill with something like car insurance, or arthritis, or web site design and then I'll take your comments as valid. Until then, lets get real on what SEO is and that you honestly are unsure of what you are talking about.

[rcourtney]

Originally Posted by Veikoh

What is the highly competitive keyword? Better find something that nobody one else hasn’t figured out and people are searching? What goes for me, once I had "accounting" keyword for my financial accounting software. Being pissed off with "Sky Broadband", I just wrote an article to my blog. Type to google "sky broadband helpline number" for example, or better do from Sky.Com site typing "Sky Broadband problems". I never wanted those keywords, those just happened for me.

Veiko

While your unstated point that Google fell in love with Blog entries for awhile (and now is mad for Videos), your post is still not valid to the original question. The key phrases you use as an example are not phrases that any business selling the mentioned product would want to target, unless they wanted to do some sort of reverse strategy against another brand, but that is against the webmaster rules and would eventually be found and probably penalized. In short, none of the above are good long-term SEO practices.

[rcourtney]

Please, no more rants about how marketers have destroyed the web. A vast number of users search the web for things they want to buy - end of story.

[weslinda]

I make most of my buying decisions using resources I find on the web. If I am purchasing anything, I typically start my search on the web, even if I buy locally. I look for reviews and feedback on products before making a final decision, and I typically use multiple sites to get a full picture.

[Veikoh]

What I see here is some frustrated persons not accepting the humanity. Are those now really named as SEO’s? Why the **** somebody in nearby garage want to be in first position in google using the “car insurance” or “car repairs”? Do, what your market niche is the best. Anyway, forcing something for your client benefits isn’t much decent practice and taking money to do so should be criminal act. I’m not doing anything to sell myself here; I’m just doing it as being bored with stupidity. I have no intentions also to compete with some SEO’s. Do, what you think you are doing the best and be proud of it. What I’m really waiting some challenges and decent product ideas for the market.

[ArthurNYC]

Heck I remember the 60 minutes of free AOL you got every month and the $400 bills you got from them for minutes. Back in the day when AOL had 10-15 chat rooms and you could get a screen name without 5 numbers after it. Yes ... AIM me at ArthurNYC (no numbers, nothing) and I don't even live in NYC anymore.

Back on topic ... what is SEO for anyway if not marketing? Do you worry about content, links and so on for the family website? Do you want to be listed #1 for "The Johnson Family"?

Anyway ... I appreciate the advice and also the direct contacts by various SEOs with suggestions and possible consulting.

Thanks again.

Arthur

[weslinda]

Veikoh, they might be interested in Baltimore Car Repairs and that is still a competetive term. SEO has it's place, the issue is that just like any business, there are people who are unethical in their practices.

If anyone could get a site to the top easily, then there would not be a market for SEO and it would not be one of the hottest topics out there.

ArthurNYC, I hope you find what you are looking for and obviously this has been a quite exciting thread. Most people here are willing to help and are open to answering any questions you might have.

[visser]

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

Back on topic ... what is SEO for anyway if not marketing? Do you worry about content, links and so on for the family website? Do you want to be listed #1 for "The Johnson Family"?

I'm sure there may be a Johnson family that does want to rank #1, perhaps not for commercial reasons.

There is high demand for NPO's to hold key competitive charity terms as well as local SMB's. Take a look at a few popular terms, those Adwords campaigns and landing pages aren't free...

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

Anyway ... I appreciate the advice and also the direct contacts by various SEOs with suggestions and possible consulting.

When your site update is complete please post your analytics/conversion stats for us all to see aswell as the client you did choose

Next thread, I'm out of here.

[Conficio]

A very valid question!

I'd say you want to contract with a good consultant but know what for.

Compare it to hiring a CPA for your tax return. It is not too effective if you hire the person after the tax year is over and with a bag of receipts. You really profit if you hire the CPA for advice during the year, before you do your major purchases and commit to expenses.

Treat your SEO professional the same way. Don't have him implement the secret sauce on your web-site. Let him teach your staff what is important and how to do it. He can at best teach them how to code the HTML w/o revealing to everybody why exactly.

And above all, let him teach you, the CEO of the company, why it matters and how it is measured. That way you can implement the appropriate controls that will help your business succeed, and control the business outcome rather than an employees performance or a consultants performance.

I believe an inside SEO specialist will be hard pressed to keep up with the shifting landscape of SEO/SEM. And also you will not be able to afford the complex reporting/scanning tools that a specialized shop can afford based on the economies of scale. But also be aware to not fall for the agency that shifts it speak but has no improved results to offer.

And another tip, do not separate SEO/SEM from overall marketing. The two benefit from each other and if you do not have offline alternatives in marketing, than you are doomed as a business anyway.

K<o>

[Ne0]

Wow... what a thread!

Some really good comments and some rather ill-informed ones to boot!

So to answer the question initially posed, Yes go with in-house if you have a network that big. That way you can spend time every day with your SEO and they can delegate parts of the work load to co-workers (small things that can be done when doing their regular job... just SEO friendly)

If your not in business to learn a new business (SEO) then hire one... When I had to have my house re-roofed I hired a group of 'Roofers' to do the job (I know I'm talking crazy semantics here) Just seems to make sense to me...

With as many hours a week as I spend staying current in the going-ons of the SEO / SEM world... I would be hard pressed to find a CEO of any company that could devote that kind of time and still run his business. That being said - hire a firm or bring someone in house. SEO is real (it's not rocket science either it's algorithm science ) *had to throw that in there for the recent group of ppl that think you can just call out an industry and say it's BS and get links...

Thanks for reading... I'm Al Gore... I invented the internets... and that's the final word

LOL

[incrediblehelp]

I agree hiring someone in-house is ideally the best move. But being able to afford it and finding one worth this amount of money to be paid is even harder. As stated above why would a solid SEO go work for someone else full time?? The money would have to excellent if this SEO was worth his/her grain of salt. So yes if you can afford it snatch a good SEO up, but be ready to pay over 100K a year easy.

Now if you cant, I would do some SOLID research before hiring on with large/small SEO. The size doesn't matter to me. I have seen some terrible results from SEO companies that were big names and those that were basically posing as SEO's.

The bottom-line in either case is to do your homework before hiring and if your new to SEO all together, I don't see how you can be qualified to make that type of decision. It is a catch 22, Educating yourself in the ways of the SEO is best start.

[weslinda]

Well said Jaan, I think that you have to really gage the size of the project, and the long term goals before bringing on an employee. Most small to medium sized companies looking at this don't realize what an SEO expert can do and won't offer the type of money you are talking about.

I also think the point about what happens in 6 months if the job of the SEO has changed and you don't want them on staff, or you want to reduce their hours. You can get into some fun areas if you aren't careful.

Do your homework, plan accordingly and everything will work out.

[duker665]

I have a question, I found what looks like an abandoned blog (2005). I was able to post
my url on 50 or so pages that had almost no backlinks, and PR was anywhere from 2 to 4.
Will this help my PR much? Does it help if I have multiple links on one page to my home page? Should I add links to my other pages? Seems to good to be true.......

[idansh]

Originally Posted by dvduval

The big problem is when someone over uses one SEO technique:
Doing too many link exchanges
Doing too much interlinking between sites
Spamming a bunch or forums or blogs

And above all, everyone is in a hurry. SEO needs to "slow cook" in order to achieve the best entree.

I so agree, you need to do it right, it s like when someone is angry when he does something under the influence of anger he will probably will make mistakes and be soory, you need to get knloledge about SEO and apply your knowledge and test it so see if something feets or not.

[weslinda]

What value is an abandoned blog going to bring you? One link from it is fine, 500 is a little much. I would focus on getting links from the top and most relevant blogs as this blog may not even get indexed by Google for months, and then it's value is a minimum at best. Work to build quality, not quantity. 5 Links from great sites will beat out the 500 from a bad one any day of the week.

[Duncan Pollock]

I can't resist throwing in a few cents (dollars?) to this fascinating thread, as follows.
1. There's a great deal of sense in all the posts, as well as a few missteps along the way. Yet the clear implication is twofold:
a) Most, if not all, potential SEO clients have no idea of what makes a good SEOite (if I can coin such a word). They don't know the questions to ask, let alone what the right answers ought to be.
b) Not quite so many SEOites (but probably a lot more than there ought to be) have an equal lack of knowing what constitutes the right questions and answers.
2. In consequence, both sides are faced with a need for trust, which, in turn, must be both earned and deserved.
3. This is all easier said than done, but I think the roots lie in the following:
a) No quick tricks. No fancy footwork. No false or unrealistic promises. Just slow but steady slogging, based on a progressive reach for sufficient understanding of why people would deal with the client (not to mention why they should) and what website structure, design, content, and "better than the (client's) competition" features will give the client an effective web presence.
b) Patience by the client and a willingness to accept that the points at 3.a) are an essential basis for a successful partnership (which is what it needs to come down to).
c) Quite probably something in the way of an Open Contract that allows either side time to call a halt and, where it applies, to try a different SEOite.
d) A more or less absolute mutual recognition that, just as no business is going to succeed the day it opens its doors, no SEO exercise will transform a poor website (let alone create one from a standing start) into a knockout winner overnight. Indeed, if consensus calls for a five year "getting going and established" period before an enterprise can count on profit as a given, perhaps a minimum of two years is needed before SEO results will become undeniable.
e) Throughout all this, an equal recognition that the key lies in a Unique Selling Proposition along with either "doing what no one else does" or "doing it better than anyone else manages to do" -- and that a successful web presence calls for this approach every bit as much as the client's day to day marketing achievements do.

Hiring an SEO firm or adding someone to the client's staff with an SEO remit is a judgment call, but either way there should be some good and demonstrable proof that the person/people involved are well aware of the mysteries and intricacies of SEO.

End of SEO 102?

Duncan

[weslinda]

Educated decisions are always the best decisions. Do your homework, do the numbers, make a decision and make everyone accountable. Let us know what you do and how it works out for you.