Why Exchanging Links Isn't Worth It. And Why Page Rank.....

[perry321]

...isn't that big of a deal either. Well, for the most part, that is.

Well, in my opinion, anyway. :-)~

I'm sorry, but I have to get this off my chest.

I run a website for my book on dating for men. It's carried in bookstores, but I thought I would try the Internet also. I started the site a few years ago. I let it die, and I am just now getting it back on its feet.

I have been told, and I have read that exchanging links will give my site a higher ranking, and that having a high page rank is such a good idea.

Maybe, maybe not, but after using my common sense, and a few searches on keywords on different products and subjects, I quickly came to the conclusion that for the most part it is a waste of time, and, that page rank is overrated.

Go look at a similiar product such as yours. Are they on the same page as you? Do they have links from other sites? If so, how many are there, and what KIND of liks are they? Do they have a high page rank?

I am always seeing sites that have NO page rank and NO links from other sites, and they still show up on the first two pages, right along with the sites that do have a lot of links, and that do have a high page rank.

There is no sense to it, but that's just the way the search engines work. It has no rhyme or reason.


And how 'bout those keywords?

Many say to jack your site with keywords to get you on the first or second page of a search engine.

Yes, I agree, but...how long do many of those sites stay up there? Some stay up quite awhile. Most don't. They are knocked down the rankings by thousands of other sites.

And have you ever noticed some sites having very few keywords, and they STILL show up on the first or second pages?

I will always put keywords in my pages, but I know it isn't that big of a deal to do so. I'll do it just to do it.

I think many website owners get off on this because of their egos. "Hey, look at my site. It's on page one."

(I have a friend who is like this. I rib him every now and then about it.)

Yeah, but is he making money? And, how long will it stay up there?


I'm not a guru on this subject. I don't work for Google, and I know nothing about their inner workings. I just use common sense.


I know I am stepping on a lot of toes here, but for you all who have common sense, and you don't know either way...think about it.

I'll stick with cheap pay per click ads, writing for sites and other forms of advertising, rather than spending hours and hours and hours and hours and hours TRYING to find sites to exchange links with.

Am I wrong??? What am I missing???

*Rant off*

:-)

[martty]

PageRank has only ever been one of the 100 or so factors that go into the ranking of a page. Where did you get the impression it was that important.

Originally Posted by perry321

I am always seeing sites that have NO page rank and NO links from other sites, and they still show up on the first two pages, right along with the sites that do have a lot of links, and that do have a high page rank.

Its impossible to be indexed in Google without links from other sites.

[fresht]

Originally Posted by martty

Its impossible to be indexed in Google without links from other sites.

My site just got indexed by google after 2 weeks of existence, and it most definitely doesn't have any links from other sites. It's still in beta, and there are only 5 or so people who know it even exists. All it took was submitting it manually.

[martty]

Originally Posted by fresht

My site just got indexed by google after 2 weeks of existence, and it most definitely doesn't have any links from other sites. It's still in beta, and there are only 5 or so people who know it even exists. All it took was submitting it manually.

What is the URL?

[fresht]

Originally Posted by martty

What is the URL?

http://www.harrijahkola.com

edit: only the splash page got indexed, but I understand googlebot usually doesn't go deeper than the first page on new sites. Nevertheless, it got indexed, and I was pretty surprised about it.

I wasn't even expecting it to get it listed this fast and wasn't aware until yesterday it's on google: I got an email from a childhood friend I haven't seen in 10+ years after he googled my name. What luck it was, as the site's been on google for 3 or so days!

[perry321]

From other people out there. You read it all the time in message boards, and articles.

Yeah, Me too. A couple of years back I didn't have any links from other sites and I got in the search engines just fine. On top of that, I had NO ranking, and I was on the first page of Google for a few days.

Go figure.

[incrediblehelp]

Many issues here to cover:

1. Google toolbar PR is un-important in my opinion

2. I don't actively use link exchanges anymore and don't for my clients as well. If my client wants to do it, as long as it is relevant to their website, I give my blessing.

3. Pages with no PR rank all of the time, because the toolbar PR # is exported only 3-4 times a year. So the page actual has PR from Google...internally. Like I said above the toolbar PR means nothing.

4. Keyword stuffing/spamming is terrible and no one should do it that is serious about online marketing. You don't "PUT" keywords on your website. It happens naturally by writing good relevant, content.

5. Letting your website die a long time ago, is the real issue here. I am glad your brining it back to life now. By adding some great content and syndicating /promoting popularity you are sure to have success. I you started this process 2 years ago smiles would be had by all!

6. I have been posting this thread to my blog on many WPW threads because I think it is relevant:

Link Baiting and Social Media Optimization , Huh?

Consider link baiting and SMO instead of using link exchanges.

7. You will probably never know if your new website has links to it or not, unless you work at Google. I could misspell or link to a domain that doesn't exist for any number of reasons on my blog and Google will spider a link that doesn't work. 2 years later someone buys the domain and now it has a 2 year old link on my blog.

You realize by linking to it from this thread you have effectively got the website spidered?

Just so you know Google commonly gives a "freshness" boost to new websites and web documents. I have seen this happen over and over on new websites/websites producing fresh content. When Google realizes that the document doesn't have enough links to support its current position it gradually falls. Of course if you have some solid links being built or created you will stay ranked.

[sofakingdabest1]

Alotta links makes your site look it's a hap'nin place to be. The more the eyes are movin around the page, the more chance to view the cool Flash ads...

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by sofakingdabest1

Alotta links makes your site look it's a hap'nin place to be. The more the eyes are movin around the page, the more chance to view the cool Flash ads...

huh?

[jackit_chick]

I did at one time actively look for links, now I get an e-mail at LEAST twice a week requesting them. But after I did a lot of seo on keywords, linking, and other things I've read about, we were showing up as number 4 instead of 50, and we know longer had to pay for that word.

Now personally, not as a web designer but as a consumer, I see that those listings are sponsored and I RARELY click on those just because a lot of fake websites use these to trick people.

Need an example? My husband looked up FAFSA to fill one out for college last year because he couldn't remember the website. People with paid listings for this let you fill one out for their website then want to charge like 80 bucks for you to submit it, when it's really free! Luckily I said that it doesn't look right anyway, and we found the real one in the normal listings.

Just from scams like this as a consumer, I'm wary unless the sponsored listing is from a company I've heard of.

[DrK]

It's not as black and white as it may seem.
As a rule of thumb: yes, stay within the sites cluster; however, there a lots of sites that do not necessarily fit into a cluster - such as news sites, certain blogs and forums. In these cases it's more about PR and actual traffic.

[jxw]

incrediblehelp said it best -- "content." Content trumps all. But be aware of all the tools available to you, as everything helps, expecially when your site suffers an unexplained drop to page 3 or worse.

(Actually, incrediblehelp said it best a second time, too, with "huh?")

[garris]

I am not as optomistic about links. For a while, it worked, but it's just like the ol' story about Russian hubcaps --
Thieves would steal them, so they sold locks, which the theives then figured how to get around. So they sold locks for the locks, which the thieves figured how to get around, so they sold other locks,.... you get the idea. So it goes with the tricks of the SEO trade.
Watching the rules change every 6 months or so for the last few years, I wonder when Google will just forget the whole link thing and move on to some other way of determining rank.
It can't be far away.

[Kate Lennon]

I own five websites (all online since the mid 1990s), and only one of them makes money (real money, ie). And it is the site I was least interested in, and did virtually nothing to promote. All I did - back in 1995 - was submit it to the search engines. I knew nothing about SEO, reciprocal linking, etc. As far as I know, there are no inbound links to this site (a site search on Google gives zero results, and it actually doesn't even appear to be listed in Google (I've just checked, and it doesn't show up for any relevant search terms).
I have never advertised this site; never paid for clicks; never requested reciprocal links - in fact I have never done anything at all to advertise or promote this site, or make it "search-engine friendly (and it evidently isn't!). Yet, as I said, this is the only one of my websites that has made serious money for me.

It is a different story altogether with my other websites. I spent years trying to promote them, using every method available - carefully optimizating the site, paying for clicks on Google, paying to be listed in Yahoo, seeking (and getting) thousands of link exchanges with other *relevant* websites. There is very little that I haven't tried (and spent money, energy and endless hours in front of my PC) in my efforts to get traffic, search-engine positioning etc., for these sites.

Yet it is the other site - the one I'm not really interested in (I set it up, initially, for a bit of fun, and to practise my html skills) that continues to get all the traffic - WITHOUT reciprocal links, WITHOUT advertising or promotion, WITHOUT even being listed on Google (I've just checked, and the site has a Google PR rank of 2).

At this stage I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that all this stuff about page rank, SERP, reciprocal links, even search engine inclusion, is complete baloney; a scam on a grand scale by Google (and others) to extract money from individuals and businesses who need (or think they need) to have "a presence" online.

A whole industry has grown up around this "need" - companies who will get your site listed in search engines for a fee; companies who will optimize your site so that you will get (in theory) thousands of visitors every day - etc. And you get forums (or fora, if you prefer) - like this one - where experts and self-styled experts argue endlessly over the minutiae of SEO, and whether this or that technique is effective, or "permitted" by Google (Google has become a dictator) - like theologians arguing about how many angels can dance on the end of a pin.

It's all rubbish! Google isn't anywhere near as "intelligent" or as important as everyone is giving it credit for being. At the end of the day, you either have a website that people want or need to visit, or you don't.

[craigmn3]

It's impossible to lay down one standard for search engine results and say this works for all

Each Keyword based search has different dynamics

Major keyword slots which are highly contested require a different mind set than a niche keyword search.

How many quality sites are there for your keyword...and are you hitting the best keywords

I could gaurantee to design anyone a number one google listed website if I could optimaze it for the key word...."nanny gopp parstel bitumin grup" nobody is competeing for that.

Try Web Design, or even my favorite Above Ground Pools and the competition gets far more intense...and suddenly unimportant things like keywords and IBL's become important.
If my competition is scoring 98.1243154 % on googles relevancy then I have to score 98.1243155 and the little things count at that point.

(no there is no actual rating called relevancy % that was merely for illustration)


And to Kate Lennon ...or perhaps google is smart enough to see a site that is trying to be optomized, instead of relevant. Relevancy scores much higher than optimization with Goodgle

[Kate Lennon]

Craig,
You're missing my point. The only one of my sites that makes money doesn't even show up on Google.
One of my other sites is right at the top of Google (it has a PR of 5) for relevant searches, but it still only gets a couple of hundreds of visitors every day, and generates very little revenue (barely enough to cover the costs involved in promoting and running it).

Every day I get email spams from companies offering to optimize my website so that it has better search-engine (ie, Google) visibility. This is widely supposed to translate into more traffic and higher earnings. It doesn't. Being at the top of Google (SERP) and having a good PR does NOT result in thousands of people visiting your website every day; nor does it translate into making more money. This is a myth that is propagated by the search engines themselves, and by companies offering SEO services.

It is possible to have a successful website attracting thousands of visitors every day and earning millions of dollars annually, without doing ANYTHING to promote it. On the otyher hand, it is possible to have a high PR website that turns up at the top of Google searches for any and all relevant key terms, and still get only a trickle of traffic and earn little or nothing from it.

[BBJ]

Can anyone tell me how come then the second site that shows up on google when you search for (flowers toronto) or (florists toronto) does not even have toronto as a key word or in the title or in the content yet it's been #1 or #2 for the last couple of years for those searches......to me it's very fishy!

[jeffposaka]

Kate,

Consider yourself lucky that you get plenty of traffic and conversions without your site coming up in search engine results pages.

In my experience, I definately get more traffic and sales the higher I am in the results for the product.

I wish I could build a site, then do nothing and tons of paying customers come.

[toolameforyou]

If you can't be found in search engines by people who are searching with words and phrases relevant to your site (aka "keywords") that is a bad thing for traffic and business. It's sort of like owning a coffee shop in the middle of the forest. Just because it's there doesn't mean people can find it.

If your traffic is not coming from search engines, then where? Links? Newsletters? Offline promotions? A hot myspace page?

As far as I know, there are no inbound links to this site (a site search on Google gives zero results, and it actually doesn't even appear to be listed in Google (I've just checked, and it doesn't show up for any relevant search terms).

If you have access to your log files or a site stats program you should immediately be able to see just where all those visits are coming from. I'd bet the farm they aren't all typing in the url. I'd bet almost none do in fact.

I must be missing something here...

As much as I like the idea of the Field Of Dreams approach (If you build it they will come!), it just hasn't worked out that way for any site I've ever hacked out! And yes, I guess you can cross the invisible line where too much work is put into links/optimization... And yes, I think the days of reciprocal gold are long gone... but still! I've been doing this for 11 years now and to say that not showing up for relevant searches doesn't affect business sounds very crazy to me at this point.

Maybe the point I'm missing here is that I shouldn't agonize over a particular search phrase in google?

Honestly, I don't know. Help me out. I just typed a bunch of stuff and I'm afraid I'm gonna have to re-read this thread because I MUST be missing something important.

[nelsonez]

Originally Posted by perry321

There is no sense to it, but that's just the way the search engines work. It has no rhyme or reason.

Hi Perry, this is why there are SEO specialists / experts. They figure out how the search engine algorithms work and use this knowledge to get their clients sites to rank higher.

With that said there is no such thing as a perfect algorithm. You will always see results for a keyword search that you think shouldn't be there. Usually though if you know the different criteria that go into producing this rank you will eventually find a reason why this site is where it is at. It will usually be heavily weighted for one of the criteria.

These search engine indexing algorithms are essentially multivariate equations that takes into account dozens of different criteria. This type of equation borders on what goes into simple artifical intelligence calcuations so of course it will be complicated. Many of the experts here have studied the search engine indexing process for well over 5 years now.

I am by no means suggesting you shouldn't try this at home but I do get a chuckle when someone reads a how-to SEO article on the internet then tries it for a few weeks or even a month and then declares that the search engines rank sites with no rhyme or reason.

[beakerbum]

Personally, I think it's all a little in between.

On the one hand, there's the guru culture out there that is so prevalent in our industry: there's an entire industry built on putting together widely known SEO information, packaging it into a system or e-book, labelling it as 'secrets revealed' and then putting together all this marketing convincing people they have to fork over their money to gain the fruits of all this wisdom.

But on the other hand, being fairly new to all this, i know it's a lot more than just some kind of crapshoot. I work a lot with a particular industry that as a whole does a lousy job of creating websites that can be found by searches, and it often takes just a few fundamental changes to improve the results. No, it doesn't result in thousands of visitors, but when it's all said and done when people want to find what it is that these companies do in their communities, they are able to do so as a result.

I echo the sentiment of incrediblehelp: content is king. build a site that has good content in an area that people want to find that content and follow some basic principles (not tricks).

i'd be curious to know what this site is that makes so much money without links or page rank.

[perry321]

toolameforyou, there are just so many businesses that can fit on the first, second, or third page of a search. Most people won't go beyond the second page, unless they are doing some serious shopping, like for the holidays, or they are doing research.

With that said, how many Internet businesses out there make a lot of money? Thousands!

They all can't fit on those first few pages, right? So, they are advertising. They don't even bother with trying to get on the first page of a search.

I know a couple of these businesses who say "screw Google," mainly because Google goes on and on about page rank and exchanging links, and other such stuff that doesn't matter in the long run.

Personally, I also think Google IS overrated. I don't out and out dislike them, but many times they are indeed full of it.

The owners put together a program that is JUST a search engine, and they now make millions off overly-priced ads.

[perry321]

Hi Eric.

All due respect, it doesn't take an "expert" or "SEO specialists / experts" to set up a site with good keywords, and placing them in the right places.

And yes, there are some sites that do rank high because of them...right along with the sites that didn't have such "experts" helping them.

I'm sorry, but you are making a science out of this. It isn't.

Also, look at how many of those sites (NOT ALL) who do land on page one, only to be gone a short time later, replaced by another site.


"Many of the experts here have studied the search engine indexing process for well over 5 years now."

I know a fiteen-year old who doesn't know all that much. He knows just enough to put keywords on the top of his site, in his meta tags, and in his HTML. He ranked just as high. Well, for a short while, that is. he got bumped down by a newere site. He didn't feel like havingto always try to figure out new keywrods to use, so he just advertised in small, inexpensive sites.

He does MUCH better than the sites who are on page one of a search.


"I do get a chuckle when someone reads a how-to SEO article on the internet then tries it for a few weeks or even a month and then declares that the search engines rank sites with no rhyme or reason."

I didn't read anything. I just use common sense, and I think outside the box.

I just did searches on a whole slew of different products, and then looked to see if they had any link exchange program and ranking. Many of them didn't. Many of them just happen to fall on the first or second page.

There IS no rhyme or reason to it.

[nelsonez]

Perry if it was so easy like you say then you wouldn't be here seeking help and sounding disgruntled about Google and the search engines in general.

Do you think a first page ranking in Google for a search phrase relevant to your business will make you more or less money than you are making right now?

Whether you want to admit it or not you know the answer.

[myfreeforum]

Originally Posted by BBJ

Can anyone tell me how come then the second site that shows up on google when you search for (flowers toronto) or (florists toronto) does not even have toronto as a key word or in the title or in the content yet it's been #1 or #2 for the last couple of years for those searches......to me it's very fishy!

Too lazy to read the thread to see if this got answered, but it probably got there because of the link text of other websites linking to it with Toronto Flowers.

In my experience, that anchor text rules over almost everything for getting indexed. JMHO.

[Rovoo.com]

I do believe in Seo expertise or exchanging links because I build a website without a knowledge of any SEO and I can not find my website in the internet and thanks to the experts who gave me free advise and following this forum I gained a little knowledge and now when I type the url it come up all the time.

Originally Posted by perry321

...isn't that big of a deal either. Well, for the most part, that is.

Well, in my opinion, anyway. :-)~

I'm sorry, but I have to get this off my chest.

I run a website for my book on dating for men. It's carried in bookstores, but I thought I would try the Internet also. I started the site a few years ago. I let it die, and I am just now getting it back on its feet.

I have been told, and I have read that exchanging links will give my site a higher ranking, and that having a high page rank is such a good idea.

Maybe, maybe not, but after using my common sense, and a few searches on keywords on different products and subjects, I quickly came to the conclusion that for the most part it is a waste of time, and, that page rank is overrated.

Go look at a similiar product such as yours. Are they on the same page as you? Do they have links from other sites? If so, how many are there, and what KIND of liks are they? Do they have a high page rank?

I am always seeing sites that have NO page rank and NO links from other sites, and they still show up on the first two pages, right along with the sites that do have a lot of links, and that do have a high page rank.

There is no sense to it, but that's just the way the search engines work. It has no rhyme or reason.


And how 'bout those keywords?

Many say to jack your site with keywords to get you on the first or second page of a search engine.

Yes, I agree, but...how long do many of those sites stay up there? Some stay up quite awhile. Most don't. They are knocked down the rankings by thousands of other sites.

And have you ever noticed some sites having very few keywords, and they STILL show up on the first or second pages?

I will always put keywords in my pages, but I know it isn't that big of a deal to do so. I'll do it just to do it.

I think many website owners get off on this because of their egos. "Hey, look at my site. It's on page one."

(I have a friend who is like this. I rib him every now and then about it.)

Yeah, but is he making money? And, how long will it stay up there?


I'm not a guru on this subject. I don't work for Google, and I know nothing about their inner workings. I just use common sense.


I know I am stepping on a lot of toes here, but for you all who have common sense, and you don't know either way...think about it.

I'll stick with cheap pay per click ads, writing for sites and other forms of advertising, rather than spending hours and hours and hours and hours and hours TRYING to find sites to exchange links with.

Am I wrong??? What am I missing???

*Rant off*

:-)

[texxs]

Well I've heard a lot of people say that pageRank is overrated. While I agree that it's not the end goal for a businesses web site, that would be the number of conversions, I have to say that it is the most important factor in reaching the main goal of a business site.

Go look at a similiar product such as yours. Are they on the same page as you? Do they have links from other sites? If so, how many are there, and what KIND of liks are they? Do they have a high page rank?

Yes they are listed under the same keyphrases but they are on the first page we are under the third to fifth pages. Why? Because the page rank of every site on the first page for all related keyphrases is 4-8, ours is 3. These sites that are on the first pages of SERP's are listed almost exactly in order of PR (highest PR at the top of the page).

The obvious answer:
To increase conversion we need more traffic to the web site.
AdWords and similiar traffic is almost 100% fraud in our category, so we need to be in the natraul SERP's. There is ALOT of traffic for these keyphrases.
How do we get there? Increase our PageRank.

PageRank has only ever been one of the 100 or so factors that go into the ranking of a page

- But it is and always has been the one with the most influence overall.

Its impossible to be indexed in Google without links from other sites.

- not completely true, but close.

harrijahkola.com

only the splash page got indexed, but I understand googlebot usually doesn't go deeper than the first page on new sites. Nevertheless, it got indexed, and I was pretty surprised about it.

not true, google definetly indexs the whole site from the very first time it visits, but only the portion it can get to from links in the index page. Your splash page is beautiful, but does not have a single word of readable text. Therefore google thinks ytour web site is aboutthe following: ""
That right, it thinks your web site is a blank page. This is going to kill you in the SERPS! I love beautiful intors myself and firmly beleive that SE's shouldn't work this way - after all spalsh pages are nothing new or complicarted, but yet this IS how they work... You will only be found by people searching for you by name and that's only because you have a unique name. Worse, since you actually have keyphrases in your meta tags and no text to match in the actual page, your site IS consdered "spammy" to a SE (not me, I like it!)

[jackit_chick]

Originally Posted by jeffposaka

Kate,

Consider yourself lucky that you get plenty of traffic and conversions without your site coming up in search engine results pages.

In my experience, I definately get more traffic and sales the higher I am in the results for the product.

I wish I could build a site, then do nothing and tons of paying customers come.

My #2 was Tidysflowers.com, which has the word flower, florist, and toronto in the title...what's the exact url of the site? Maybe you mispelled a word? =P

[jackit_chick]

Whoa, that was supposed to be a quote to BBJ, oops haha!

[BBJ]

Originally Posted by jackit_chick

Whoa, that was supposed to be a quote to BBJ, oops haha!

That's the site but title in page source is
<title>Tidy's Flowers - Online Florist &amp; Flower Shop</title>

Toronto is not there at all!!! yet if you search for another city they don't show up at all in many cases...at least not on the first page.

[jackit_chick]

Originally Posted by BBJ

That's the site but title in page source is
<title>Tidy's Flowers - Online Florist &amp; Flower Shop</title>

Toronto is not there at all!!! yet if you search for another city they don't show up at all in many cases...at least not on the first page.

Strange, the first time I looked it up tidysflowers had a 2nd page listed with toronto in it but now it doesn't... Anyway, it does say toronto in the header, but it's an image so that rules that out. In the Delivery Area/Info it has that word 6 times, in the Tidy's History it has it 11, perhaps these 2 pages could be boosting it up? I do not see what else it could be.

[jackit_chick]

Originally Posted by texxs

- But it is and always has been the one with the most influence overall.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree. Before doing anything with SEO, I didn't even know what pagerank was. When I shop online, I shop from a company based on the security of their shopping cart, but more importantly, if I've even heard of them or not. I NEVER look at pagerank when I'm shopping, whatever pops up first on google is what I'll look at first. What does it matter if you have a pagerank 10 but you're number 83 on all the search engines?

[perry321]

Exactly.

But, then again, there are some who do show up on the first page. Was it because of that? Who knows.

Like I said, there are other sites with no page rank, and no link exchange program, and they show up on page one and two.

And look at all the Internet companies that put the keywords in their domain. ... Thousands. They can't all fit on pages one and two of a search. It's the luck of the draw that some of them, like the above poster are able to show up.

The rest turn to advertising, and don't even bother with search engines. They know that if they do show up, it, may, not be for very long, and they know that other sites with no page rank and link exchanges still show up.

Thye put their man hours towards looking for ads instead.

It's the luck of the draw if your site shows up on those first two pages.

Hey Eric.

"Perry if it was so easy like you say then you wouldn't be here seeking help"

Can you show me where I said it was so easy? Please show me where I posted that.

"sounding disgruntled about Google and the search engines in general."

Not disgruntled at all, Eric. Are the ones who agree with the facts disgruntled also. No. none of us are.


"Do you think a first page ranking in Google for a search phrase relevant to your business will make you more or less money than you are making right now?"

I don't know. It could be more or less for them.

One poster has already stated that she didn't make any money. Or was it "very litle"??? I have spoken with a few others who said either they didn't or it was very little.

Then you have others who are making some money.

Who knows.

[jackit_chick]

I'm glad we agree that the PageRank has no logic.

I also agree that if you do move from page 83 to page #1, it doesn't not necessarily mean you'll make more money. Some sites are hard to navigate, so you'll get a ton more visitors, but ppl are impatient and if they can't find what they're looking for easily and quickly, they'll click back and go on to page 2 if they have to.

When I started working here, the main navigation menu was hard to find even for me, it looked like little tiny folders and I'd get a few e-mails asking how to navigate the site. So I redid the entire menu using the most amazing menu software ever invited (allwebmenus pro), sales went up a bit. A few months later after learning a bit more about SEO, I went through our entire website doing SEO. I'm now on page 1 for most of our keywords, this was about 2 years ago, and it's stayed there ever since. BUT, if I had not redone my menu, it wouldn't have mattered! How many customers are going to e-mail a company "I can't navigate your website" when they have a thousand other websites that sell the same stuff that they CAN navigate.

In conclusion, even if you're on #1, and your hits are 5.9 kagillion a day, it won't matter if they can't find what they're looking for. Play the SEO game, but remember what's really important, does your website work?

[lunartcorp]

Kate:
May we have the URL of the site that you are talking about? The one that does not appear but makes real money. I would like to take a look at it.

[perry321]

"it won't matter if they can't find what they're looking for."

I agree! But many are indeed nice sites.

All this can give one a headache, huh?

[jackit_chick]

Yes it does give me a headache.

There is one company that is ALWAYS one listing higher than us, the only thing I can see that we don't have that they've got, is like 13,000 links, yup I just checked.

(that bugs me too, when you check the links going to your site, it's drastically different from day to day.)

We have like 1,500 (on some days anyway, some days it's like 30 lol). But they're always in front of us.

Drives me crazy with wonder and migraines!...and apparently it makes it so I can't spell or have good grammar, after I read that last message I typed I was like holy crap!

[perry321]

lol relax. Here, have a beer.

Who cares if they are one link on top of you? I mean, come on.

(By the way, I typed in several keywords to find such a site as this, and it didn't show up. What am I missing here?)

And what makes you think it is because of all the links they have? Or, it could be? Could it be the luck of the draw?

I have seen plenty of sites that have nothing going for them, and they were on page one.

I don't care if I am in the middle of the page, or near the bottom, because I know many will click on more than one link.

Hell, I don't care if I'm not listed at all. I am putting up cheap ads. Too many click on search engine links out of curiosity, anyway. When they click on an ad, I know that the odds are that they are looking to buy, or, possibly buy.

Did you finish that beer yet?

No? Give me the rest!

[nelsonez]

Originally Posted by myfreeforum

Can anyone tell me how come then the second site that shows up on google when you search for (flowers toronto) or (florists toronto) does not even have toronto as a key word or in the title or in the content yet it's been #1 or #2 for the last couple of years for those searches......to me it's very fishy!

The site has a secondary page which is the #3 result that does have the word "Toronto" and "flowers" throughout the page. Granted the homepage does not but the homepage has a very high "link popularity index" and most likely has, like someone else suggested, alot of anchor text links pointing back to the home page.

Hope that helps.

[isharli]

All of this is fine for topics that are not very competitive. But for extremely competitive keywords, nothing seems to work. Early entry seems to be the most influential factor in rankings.

[jackit_chick]

Originally Posted by perry321

(By the way, I typed in several keywords to find such a site as this, and it didn't show up. What am I missing here?)

Huh? What keywords did you type in, to find a site such as what? Are you meaning to find out how many pages are linked to a site er???? You can't have the beer until you answer this question! HA!

*holds the beer hostage*

If it was just luck of the draw, why is ours never above theirs if it's all random or something? I don't mind that we're like number 3 or 4, as long as I"m on the first page I really don't care, but it just boggles the mind is all.

[beakerbum]

Perry, maybe i'm going out on a limb here, but by the way you say some things you seem to give Google more importance than you realize.

I've seen a lot of people here talk about Google like they're some kind of puppetmaster who's out there dictating how websites should be set up, and some of the things you've said give me the impression you feel this way. Please forgive me if I read you wrong.

The thing is, Google is in no authority over anyone as far as how websites should be set up and they don't dictate anything. All they are is a search engine. But because of the fact that they are far and away the pre-eminent search engine, and because of the fact that so many people are finding there is benefit to being in the top results in searches, there is now an industry built around trying to find out what makes Google tick. But if anyone starts viewing Google like some dictator or some internet god, then it's pretty obvious that they recognize that Google is indeed that important. But it's only important because it's what people use.

[beakerbum]

If some guy with no formal training program or coaching comes in and wins a marathon, does that mean the training and coaching for all the others is useless? Of course not. While this guy may win without the coaching or training, the guy who finished second may never have even finished or have been close to challenging without the coaching and training he had.

This is where the logic is all messed up here. No, we don't know why some sites rank as well as they do. But what we do know is that sound SEO work has it's benefits. I can speak from experience on that.

There's a myth out there that i think you helped point out: SEO does not equal sales. All SEO is designed to do is get visitors. It's not the only way to get visitors. For many, SEO brings the greatest return on investment. For others, it may be totally different ways of getting people to your site that works the best. It all depends on your products and services, and on the kinds of people that get to your site from the different sources.

Another example is yellow pages for local businesses. In some industries, a yellow page ad is gold. For some, they find that people that call from yellow pages almost never match the buying profile and thus it's a waste of money.

You may get great results without SEO, or you may do great in SEO and get top ratings and not get any profits. There are countless others that have opposite results. It's just like everything else about your business, you have to do what works best for you.

[jackit_chick]

Well said Beakerbum!

[perry321]

Agreed. Well said.

jackit_chick, I must have gotten that wrong. Aren't you talking about this site? Anyway, no biggie. I was just curious. :-)

I mean luck of the draw that he is above you. (I would say on top of you, but I don't want to get banned. :-)~ *cough*)

I dont know if it is or not. One never really knows for sure. Do we?

If you want, send me an e-mail of the URL, and I can send it to someone who really knows his stuff. He has been at it since day one of search engines. He is now helping me with my site. I lucked out when I met him!

[perry321]

Hey, beakerbum.

"I've seen a lot of people here talk about Google like they're some kind of puppetmaster who's out there dictating how websites should be set up, and some of the things you've said give me the impression you feel this way. Please forgive me if I read you wrong."

You are. and it's okay. :-) I don't hate Google. I just think they are overrated.


"But because of the fact that they are far and away the pre-eminent search engine, and because of the fact that so many people are finding there is benefit to being in the top results in searches, there is now an industry built around trying to find out what makes Google tick."

Yeah, I know, but...here's the thing...

1.) As an experiemnt now and then, I will do searches for all kinds of things. Just about every single time I will notice other sites on page one, and they don't have ANY links, or and they have very little to no ranking.

Sometimes I will send a site owner an e-mail, expaling who I am, and then asking how many hits they get on a daily basis. We then get to talking about this Google.

Their daily hits range around 20, 30, 40, with maybe one sale a week. And they have good sites. That's just the way it is with many of them. Not all sites, are like this, of course.

2.) I have also talked with a couple of site owners who had a lot of links, and they are constantly on page one, but...is it because of their links? Is it because they have the luck of the draw? Is it because some of their pages are always changing with fresh stuff, like an online magazine? In addition to that, they have a lot of pages on their site, like a magazine.

Or, is it all of the above??? They don't know for sure.

You see, that's just it. We can spend hours and hours and hours and HOURS looking for good sites to exchange links with, play with keywords, but, BUT what if it does very little??? Or nothing at all?

Look at all the sites out there who also do link exchanging. Thousands! Right? They can't all fit on the first couple of pages, right?

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm sorry, but all I am saying is, for ME, the time that is spent looking, TRYING to find sites that will exchange links can be put forth towards inexpensive ads, and whatnot. And wha tlittle time I have left, I would rather be spending it away from the computer, relaxing.

Now, if there was a service out there that did all of that for us, and we could trust them...that would be different. Then again, I still wouldn't hold my breath in getting high rank. And if I did, how long will I stay up there?

Wouldn't it be nice to find such a service that could find thousands of sites for us that would trade links? We would trade links and have it shown on the homepage for a certain amount of time. Now THAT would work. It can be done manually, but how long would it take to get enough sites to where it will make a difference? Screw that.

There's also a neat trick that is used that some porn site owners use. I will agree that one works. But this post is already ***-long. :-) But even then it has its limitations.

Again, look at all of the sites out there who are doing the same thing. Jeez, we have seen only a microscopic fraction of them on the first couple of pages. The rest don't even bother with links any more. They don't even bother with keywords! They put all of their man hours towards advertising.

For me, it's more of a headache and too much trouble, and, guess work. "Will I or will I not be shown on page one? If so, for how long???"

With inexpensive ads all over the place, it's much better. Headache free, and, you make MUCH more money.

I know...to each their own. :-)

Whew! Okay, I'm done!

Have a good Thursday.

PS

Excuse my spelling. I'm brain dead today.

[jackit_chick]

Tell me your e-mail address and I'll gladly send the URL, that'd be great thanks!

Well the title of this whole thing was why links are not worth it, but since no one can really confirm or really knows since it's all an algo mystery, I'm going to keep using them just to be safe. Which I'm actually sad about...since I get at least ONE FREAKING E-MAIL A DAY to exchange links.

Luckily I only do relevant link exchanges. Even if there's no way for search engines to see whether or not the link is relevant, I think of my visitors too. I'm sure the web visitors aren't going to care about a link to African Laundry Mat in Kenya ya know?

[thepcman]

I agree that you can reach top SERPs with no page rank and no backlinks, I have done it.
But it is much easier to do so when you do have them.
I find that for a given keyword I will usually rank better than a competing site. When I did a check on the other site I found my pagerank was higher or I had more backlinks. I infer from this that PR etc. does have an effect. I find it easier to rank highly with a better PR than without. Although I don't begin to think I understand it all.

[optimalwebsite]

Competition I think is the main factor in ranking. It doesn't come up much in discussions like these because people look more at their own site than other people's. Link swapping won't make much difference when your competition is link swapping like crazy.

Personally I think the idea of links still works for the SE's because even an arranged link swap means someone human checks a site's content for relevence.

Just my two cents...


joel