CSS Destroyed My Rankings

[greeneagle]

We have a lot of room for misunderstanding in an International forum with English not always being a first language, complicated by the fact that we hail from differing business specialties and experiences.

Ken

[weslinda]

I have a hard enough time with English and I was born and raised here in the US.

[pathikbd]

Originally Posted by pebblez

interesting thing about the H1 tags...

I had them originally. one on each page indicating what the page was about.

However for several reasons based on searches I did trying to get inside the SE's heads, i thought the H1's might be hurting me so I removed them.

As soon as I did I saw some of my more important rankings returning. Not all of them, and it could be a coincidence, but who knows

I put them back...and a day later I was gone. So...I took them down again, and for now they are coming back a little.

Like I said before, your pages had no h1 tags and most of the tags were integrated in the CSS file. Nice to know that your site is getting good ranks again. Please put emphasis on bold tags also. I have a lot of websites getting good ranks and most interesting thing is, I never cared about CSS formatting. And the W3 Validation shows horrible reports.

Originally Posted by pebblez

It may be that me suddenly adding h1 to 700 different pages all at once caused google to think i was h1 stuffing or something, and that combined with all the other changes flagged me as a spammer.

I am not quite sure about this. But limiting your keywords and SEO emphasis for large number of pages is a decent thing to do. If you have more than 700 pages, then I would request you to make the site more user friendly, than search engine friendly. Large number of pages slightly SEO optimized and mostly User optimized can get you good rank.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by pathikbd

I have a lot of websites getting good ranks and most interesting thing is, I never cared about CSS formatting. And the W3 Validation shows horrible reports.

1. So you recommend not validating your code and writing correct CSS, see my post regarding CSS ID and CSS class above.
2. Could the situation have been better if your markup and styling was X(HTML) and CSS valid? In other words, do you think valid markup and code make things worse?
3. What about tomorrow? Do you know the future? Do you know what deprecated HTML markup means?
4. Do you know what a HTML and DOM inheritance tree is? Do you know how that relates to DHTML, the document object model and future technologies like AJAX?

At least you and other people that support spaghetti coding and markup should buy the following book:
Stuart Langridge (November 2005 or later): DHTML Utopia: Modern Web Design Using JavaScript & DOM
read it and come back and argument.

Note:
CSS is a central element in tomorrows technologies like DOM scripting and AJAX.

Originally Posted by kgun

• Last argument. How easy is it to update and change a site with a site-wide linked or imported stylsheet and JS in external include files? How difficult can it be to update a site with lot of pages with open HTML tags? Time is money, money / time that can be used on SEO and PPC.

Is this important?

[Seopro]

Good clean code means forward compatable and the only reasons not to use valid code is you are paid by the hour or you dont know how. The first I cant do anything about the second is easy to take care of. I have not seen any writers on web design or CSS recommend invalid, sloppy code and I think they know more than I do. I make a darn good living cleaning up after someone that calls themselves a designer. My editor of choice is notepad or a free editor that allows me to write clean code. Clicking on a button does not make one a designer. Web standards is the only way to design.
Don
Seopro

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Seopro

Clicking on a button does not make one a designer. Web standards is the only way to design.

Good advice.

Yesterdays web was mostly about online brochures, catalogs and static pages. The first version of HTML was mainly about formatting and linking commands. HTML is a markup languge and no programming language. CSS is a styling language. Even if the class concept is used, it is not a class in the object oriented programming meaning of the word class. As such another word could have been better, since someone that know what a CSS class is may be fooled to think they know the meaning of the class concept used in object oriented programming languages.

Tomorrow's web is more about web services and web applications. With asynchronous JavaScript calls, first via hidden frames of zero hight and with, then iframes and last the XMLHttpRequest object and AJAX we have seen the start of this evolution. Then code and markup related to this code becomes much more important.

This will also require more of the SE's.

[Seopro]

We have no idea what the future on the web holds for us and it is my opinion that web standards will help in any direction design takes us. I remember as a small child drawing animals on cave walls with bits of charcoal now I use a graphics program. Its amazing the progress we have made.
Don
Seopro

[zoreli]

Same thing here. I change my table design with CSS design, and my pages are XHTML strict 1.0

My domain http://web.goto.gr vanished from serps on goolge.gr for my main keyword web design. I was on page 3 in SERPS and now I am nowhere to be found.

All my pages are valid xhtml strict 1.0 (click on the link on the bottom on the page). So something else should be the problem, not the validation of the code. Hopefully, my site will be back in SERPS soon, since 90% of my clients come from the site.

I can't do anything except to wait and pray now...

Regards, Zoreli

[pathikbd]

Originally Posted by kgun

[*] So you recommend not validating your code and writing correct CSS, see my post regarding CSS ID and CSS class above.[*] Could the situation have been better if your markup and styling was X(HTML) and CSS valid? In other words, do you think valid markup and code make things worse?[*] What about tomorrow? Do you know the future? Do you know what deprecated HTML markup means?[*] Do you know what a HTML and DOM inheritance tree is? Do you know how that relates to DHTML, the document object model and future technologies like AJAX?

Dear Kgun,

In my previous 2 posts, I have encouraged peblez to use CSS files. The reason I have not used CSS before, because it eats up a lot of time. And after Technical & SEO copywriting, CSS formatting is require extra time & care. Therefore, I usually avoided it if I could. This time I am working with CSS for the www.colorexpertsbd.com site.

Yes situations become better using Valid CSS. And valid CSS does not make thing worse. I was actually talking about the effective way to use it.

As a business graduate I emphasis on only on marketing efforts. I don't know what DOM inheritance tree is and I am quite familiar with dynamic webpages.

Thanks for the post.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by zoreli

All my pages are valid xhtml strict 1.0 (click on the link on the bottom on the page). So something else should be the problem, not the validation of the code. Hopefully, my site will be back in SERPS soon, since 90% of my clients come from the site.

I can't do anything except to wait and pray now...

Regards, Zoreli

Yes, you can do much. You can get IBL's and write new fresh content. You can look for new business models and keep up with new technologies.

Originally Posted by pathikbd

The reason I have not used CSS before, because it eats up a lot of time. And after Technical & SEO copywriting, CSS formatting is require extra time & care. Therefore, I usually avoided it if I could. This time I am working with CSS for the www.colorexpertsbd.com site.

Yes situations become better using Valid CSS. And valid CSS does not make thing worse. I was actually talking about the effective way to use it.

As a business graduate I emphasis on only on marketing efforts. I don't know what DOM inheritance tree is and I am quite familiar with dynamic webpages.

Thanks for the post.

I agree that time can be an argument and in my view the only argument, not to validate and use CSS.

The DOM tree is the datastructure for the document object model. I is the nodes of this tree you manipulate with technologies like AJAX etc.

On my site, DigitalStart.net you find the following cite:

"The problem is that PHP is just too easy. It tempts you to try out your ideas, and flatters you with good results. You write much of your code straight into your Web pages, because PHP is designed to support that. You add the heavier code to functions in library files, and before you know it you have a working Web application. You are well on your way to ruin. You don't realize this, of course, because your site looks fantastic. It performs well, your clients are happy, and your users are spending money."

Read more about that story there. The point is that you think it is so easy, that you do it wrong from the start. I use to say, the top of laziness is to do everything correct from the beginning.

Don't build a megastructure, that collapses sooner or later. Invest a little time in sound technologies, markup and coding before you rush ahead.

By separating, content, code and styling, it is much easier to update your site in the future, and you make life easier for the SE's.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by kgun

Where do you have your IT education from?

When is the next time you come here and tell us how to cook spegetthi?

Are all norwegians as polite as you are?

I guess in this thread my participation is not appreciated. I'll leave it to you all.

[kgun]

I wrote that to you because I know you stand it. I hope they are more polite than me.

I am a true amateur compared to many of them. You should hear some of them on a large OOP project and you understand what I mean.

This thread is about CSS, but the problem is the same. May be I misunderstood you, but IMO you should

• Never defend invalid markup and sloppy code, even if it is OK for the SE's. If the Bots of the SE's rule your programming developement, you may soon end up with a megastructure that collapses. See my post above.
• In extreme programmming XP, you even test your code before you use it. That is a sound principle.

Personal advice:
Never defend bad coding and markup.

A space ship, with or without people, worth billions of USD, can end up in the ocean if you defend / attack people instead of arguments.

Read that thread if you have time. It is not long. Then come back and tell me if you agree or not.

[zoreli]

Hi

Originally Posted by kgun

Yes, you can do much. You can get IBL's and write new fresh content. You can look for new business models and keep up with new technologies.

Thanks for the advices. I am working on both fields on daily basis. Hopefully that will help my site to get back in serps. Currently I am still loosing my rankings for all my keywords (greek and english).

This day looks like nightmare for me...

Regards, Zoreli

[kgun]

Writing tests before coding, is extreme programming in a nutshell.

"Let's begin with a simple question:
What is XP? As you will see, it is a deliberate and disciplined approach to software development".

As I told, that is a sound principle. Once you understand and learn it, you will accelerate your programming skills.

Litterature:
See the last link in my signature (you find some of my favourites there in the upper right corner, PHP, XP and design patterns in one book)

or go to the

Addison Wesley Benjamin Cummings

and search for extreme programming.

[Seopro]

I don't have time????? When it gets to the point that I do not have time to do things right for a customer it is time I get out of SEO and Design. If I had to change all of the font color for a client from black to dark blue I go to the CSS file and under body I change the color from #000; to #00F;
and that takes less than a minute. How long will it take you on a 100 page site.
We have only seen a pin point of what the web holds and those of us that write clean and valid code are the ones that will prosper in the future.
Don
Seopro

[activeco]

Gentlemen,

Let me remind you that this is the "Search Engine Optimization Forum" and not a section about "Best practices of web design in general".

Coding according to standards, should be promoted, of course, but many have experienced that most search engines don't put too much emphasize on validation, unless there is some serious problem involved which could confuse bots.

The OP lost his good ranking after implementing CSS.
Why is that? Is CSS related at all?
Is his CSS layout so wrong that bots can't follow it completely?

I still believe it is a kind of major content change which CSS produced (as viewed with Lynx), supplemented with REAL small content modifications.
Add some bad coding and it should be enough for big problems.

[Seopro]

Activeco
This thread started with the question of switching from a table based layout to a CSS layout. The question proposed is does sloppy code have an effect on the spiders and therefore on the SEO of a site. My contention is that if a spider can not properly read your code does it skip over it thus eliminating some of your content giving you lower rankings. I think this is something we can not answer but why chance it or promote sloppy code.
Not haveing enough time to do it right thus effecting the SEO of your customers is something that has to be considered.
Thank You
Don
Seopro

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by pebblez

However for several reasons based on searches I did trying to get inside the SE's heads, i thought the H1's might be hurting me so I removed them.

Are you crazy?

I would replace for example this:

<div id="header">

Rustic Stone, Home Decor

and So Much More </p>
</div>

with

<div id="header"> <h1> Rustic Stone, Home Decor

and So Much More </h1>
</div>

Originally Posted by pebblez

As soon as I did I saw some of my more important rankings returning. Not all of them, and it could be a coincidence, but who knows

I put them back...and a day later I was gone. So...I took them down again, and for now they are coming back a little.

It may be that me suddenly adding h1 to 700 different pages all at once caused google to think i was h1 stuffing or something, and that combined with all the other changes flagged me as a spammer

whatever it is, everything I do seams to be working opposite to how it is supposed to these days.

Do you expect that Google checks your changes instantly? Such changes require a while, until Google approves the, I know cases that they took several months.

I saw in this discussion that many here mentioned that valid code is important. Since when? I am surprised to hear that!!! Or did I misunderstand something?

I don't miss this article: http://xhtml.com/en/css/css-and-accessibility/

I will help you seriously in terms of SEO.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I saw in this discussion that many here mentioned that valid code is important. Since when?

John, so you recommend invalid code?

GoogleBot or other SE bots shall not teach me how to cook spaghetty.

Look at the bottom of that link.

W3C XHTML 1.1 Valid: Validates.
W3C CSS valid: Timeout.
W3c WAI-AA WCAG 1.0

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

John, so you recommend invalid code?

GoogleBot or other SE bots shall not teach me how to cook spaghetty.

Look at the bottom of that link.

W3C XHTML 1.1 Valid: Validates.
W3C CSS valid: Doesn't function in IE 7.0 with my options.
W3c WAI-AA WCAG 1.0

Did I ever recommend invalid code? Or is that a joke? Don't you know my web sites man?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Did I ever recommend invalid code? Or is that a joke? Don't you know my web sites man?

I know, but your comment / answer could be misunderstood. I wanted you to clear any such misunderstanding.

[greeneagle]

One more attempt...

From a purely logical perspective applied toward the "Logic Machines" (SEs): Converting to CSS from tables or a combination thereof, should not "destroy" rankings (SERP), alone.

IMO - Nothing contrary to that "fact" has been shown here, and most likely cannot be shown here or anywhere else.

IMO (again) The SE's are well beyond that diminished status in their current developmental position.

Obviously, the entire "play" hasn't been represented in this scenario here.

There is a great deal of emphasis on SE maturation in the form of millions of dollars (USD primarily) constantly endeavoring to progress (R&D) by the SEs.

Or do we just not understand the "laws of logical progression" at all, in any way here, and what about the "milestones" we have witnessed along the way?

LOL - It doesn't seem that some here like me to post symbolic tunes, although realisticly synchronis to 'EXACTING" positions here when I do, but if anyone here feels that the SE's are left that far behind, just go ahead here: It's a Dream".

There are different "trains" of thought, and everyone has to ride their own.

Ken

[activeco]

Originally Posted by greeneagle

From a purely logical perspective applied toward the "Logic Machines" (SEs): Converting to CSS from tables or a combination thereof, should not "destroy" rankings (SERP), alone.

IMO - Nothing contrary to that "fact" has been shown here, and most likely cannot be shown here or anywhere else.

I am afraid I have already shown it here, but some people are lazy or unable to try it themself or even can't read through the thread.

There is a difference in a way most robots and humans see a page. A page visually identical to us could be very different in robot's eyes.
With *nix' simple browser Lynx it is possible to experience the closest view of a robot.

Here is an example of two identical pages, one coded in pure html and another one using CSS:
Html page, CSS page

For those unable to use Lynx, here are copies of the output:

HTML:

################################################## ###########
Digital Web Magazine The web designer's online magazine of choice.

Home Search Newsletter Contact About

tutorial

The Heading for the Article Goes Here

By Name Goeshere

Sed ut perspiciatis, unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium
doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam eaque ipsa, quae ab illo inventore
veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt, explicabo. nemo enim
ipsam voluptatem, quia voluptas sit, aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia
consequuntur magni dolores eos, qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt, neque
porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit, amet, consectetur,
adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt, ut labore
et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. ut enim ad minima veniam, quis
nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid
ex ea commodi consequatur? quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit, qui in ea
voluptate velit esse, quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum, qui
dolorem eum fugiat, quo voluptas nulla pariatur?
__________________________________________________ _______________

John Smith is a Web designer, developer, author, illustrator and Flash
ninja. Be scared. Very scared.


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Sed ut perspiciatis, unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium
doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam eaque ipsa, quae ab illo inventore
veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt, explicabo. nemo enim
ipsam voluptatem, quia voluptas sit, aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia
consequuntur magni dolores eos, qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt, neque
porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit, amet, consectetur,
adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt, ut labore
et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. ut enim ad minima veniam, quis
nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid
ex ea commodi consequatur? quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit, qui in ea
voluptate velit esse, quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum, qui
dolorem eum fugiat, quo voluptas nulla pariatur?
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As you can see, the content changes are dramatic from a robot's perspective, enough to make a vast difference in rankings.

I would advice anyone making such a move, to try to make CSS layout closer to the robot's view and then to gradually change it 'back' to the visually equal appearance.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

I know, but your comment / answer could be misunderstood. I wanted you to clear any such misunderstanding.

I go with this article about this issue: http://www.phoenixrealm.com/2007/03/...s-to-your-seo/

[greeneagle]

activeco,

That is an informative post which deserves strong consideration, however there is a lot more to the algs than "pecking order" IMO.

Ken

[Seopro]

Greeneagle,
This was a very interesting subject that started out by me not explaining myself well enough. I think that anyone starting out in CSS should at least validate their code to find any major errors. My code usually validates because I do not know how to use an editor and perfer notepad anyway. I am a disabled vet so I have nothing else to do but work 7 days a week.
Sometimes my code does not validate due to a program I have on it that is not XHTML but nothing to worry about. I just feel that sometime in the future valid code will really come in handy when you are working with forward compatibility.
Everyone has their own opinion and that is what makes a forum like this worth its weight in gold.
Thank You
Don
Seopro

[greeneagle]

Seopro,

This is one of the more interesting topics here in a while IMO. It indeed deserves consideration from several perspectives.

I am in no way demeaning any stated position.

I'd like to encourage anyone else with knowledge and/or experience here to continue on.

Ken

[activeco]

Originally Posted by greeneagle

however there is a lot more to the algs than "pecking order" IMO.

Definitely true.

[Seopro]

I took one of the sites I was working on that had used "class" 8 times on the page and turned them into "id" just to see what happened. Needless to say my site fell apart and my spider would not read the major mistakes. I am not talking about using a depreciated tag because the search engines will read that but does a search engine ignore a major mistake thus decreasing your content?
This was asked in Matt Cutt's blog and when he finally answered all he said is everyone should use valid code. That really did not answer the question but then again maybe it did.
For every example that shows valid code outranking sloppy code you can find and example going in the other direction. This is a discussion that could last for years and never answered with concrete proof one way or the other. The only ones that know are the engineers and they don't talk. I do think if an engineer was to have a blog on exactly the way a search engine works we would all sit back in awe. Of course as soon as he said something everything would change anyway.
Don
Seopro

[Webnauts]

This is the appropriate code structure of the body of a page, which you can achieve with CSS, for enhanced Accessibility and SEO:

1. Logo
2. Skip links
3. Main Header (h1)
4. Main Navigation
5. Breadcrumbs
6. Main Content
7. Sub navigation(s) of other site features (like ads, etc)
8. Footer

Just my two cents.

[kgun]

John, sounds like a Dreamweaver template. I know your answer. LOL

[activeco]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

This is the appropriate code structure of the body of a page, which you can achieve with CSS, for enhanced Accessibility and SEO:

3. Main Header (h1)

Probably very true.
The OP stated experiencing less problems after removing H1, which could be due to H1 actually being positioned in the middle or end of the page, thus screaming "spam, spam...".

[Seopro]

My CSS content goes in a different order.
head
content
nav
footer
header
If the search engines want content why not give it to them first?
Don
Seopro
My family is from Alesund we do things backwards.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Seopro

My family is from Alesund we do things backwards.

Ålesund Western Norway?

Those people are very clever on buiness. Some of the best in Norway com from Møre, the region of Ålesund.

And very friendly people. Great nature there, so you should visit Ålesund if you get time. I have not been there myself.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Seopro

My CSS content goes in a different order.
head
content
nav
footer
header
If the search engines want content why not give it to them first?
Don
Seopro
My family is from Alesund we do things backwards.

My structure is based on studies & Web Standards for the present and the future.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

John, sounds like a Dreamweaver template. I know your answer. LOL

But others do not know my answer:

I hate WYSIWYG Editors. I use a text editor for coding per hand.

I hate foreign help or code! ;)

[activeco]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

My structure is based on studies & Web Standards for the present and the future.

Finally someone worth of doing business with.
If you can predict the future, the sky is the limit for us. ;)

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by activeco

Finally someone worth of doing business with.
If you can predict the future, the sky is the limit for us. ;)

No one needs to be a prophet to predict the future.
Just read for example the quality/technical guidelines of the search engines, and do exactly what they say.

There are many here and elsewhere telling that Search Engines, or lets say Google, don't care about valid code.

Maybe they cannot check that with their algos yet. But one day they will. Otherwise, why do they ask us to do all that?

Are they W3C lovers? LOL

[activeco]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Maybe they cannot check that with their algos yet. But one day they will. Otherwise, why do they ask us to do all that?

Don't get me wrong. I like clean code too, but that's not what a search engine is interested in.
A SE needs a minimum of accessibility for it's robot and a feeling that at least non-broken page is provided to visitors too, including a reasonable uptime presence.

A well designed search engine is in quest for information and authoritative pages in the first place. It is very aware that there are millions of authorities in many fields who's job is not web design and those who don't even care at all about web design and their web presence.

[Webnauts]

I am aware of all that. I just wanted to explain, how can I predict the future. That was all.

[Seopro]

Any new technology that comes out will have to follow the guidelines set by web standards or it will not work. We can predict the future by using this as common sense. That is why I am such an advocate of web standards, if used right it will make your clients happy and save you time. I might be old fashioned but this I believe. Now if you will excuse me it is a long way to the outhouse and it is raining.
Don
Seopro

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Seopro

I might be old fashioned but this I believe.

Don you are not old fashioned. You are future fashioned buddy.

Great post by the way. ;)

[greeneagle]

Strange "Bedfellows"!

Sorry, I had to go there!

LOL - Go for "it", guys!

Someone, quick, call the paramedics... we have a "pulse" here.

What are we saying in synopsis here then?

Someone "wrap it", or I'll make a "stab" at it.

Ken

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by activeco

Probably very true.
The OP stated experiencing less problems after removing H1, which could be due to H1 actually being positioned in the middle or end of the page, thus screaming "spam, spam...".

The <h1> headers should be unique for every page, and the first and only one on each page.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

The <h1> headers should be unique for every page, and the first and only one on each page.

Good advice and of course a unique descriptive title tag.

[Seopro]

I don't know why I came into this forum in the first place. I gave up forums about a year ago because of the nut cases and if you didnt agree with the moderator you got booted. Now that I am here I found a group of designers that not only know what they are doing but are great people. Now I cant keep out of here because there is so much to learn from everyone.
Thank all of you very much
Don
Seopro

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Seopro

This was asked in Matt Cutt's blog and when he finally answered all he said is everyone should use valid code.

Can you tell the link?

[Seopro]

It was sometime last summer maybe August and I didn't think much of it at the time until my wife mentioned it to me while we were working.

[Peter (IMC)]

Here´s an interesting read: http://www.stonetemple.com/articles/...m-lasnik.shtml

Just to get back to that code validation discussion. :)

A quote:

we do not penalize or treat differently those pages whose HTML won't validate very nicely.

Just to make sure,.. I don't say one should write bad code, but I am saying that validated code does not help you get higher rankings.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

I don't say one should write bad code, but I am saying that validated code does not help you get higher rankings.

Just a side note here. I hope that it is clear here that some markup errors can hinder robots crawling a page though. Which errors I cannot tell, as I have no experience designing web pages with erroneous markup. :)