What Do You Think SEO Is? My Personal SEO Thread Myths

[incrediblehelp]

Not sure how this post will fly over here at WPW, but here goes.

Well we all are creative artists in how we work with clients on organic SEO tactics. Many of the times what we feel is right and wrong for SEO can be debated. This got me wondering about a few of the recent posts on WPW lately. Their have been a few threads that I feel have been a bit "misleading" as what is ABSOLUTELY necessary for websites to rank. Here are a few I have recently noticed from WPW and other forums:

Bold Versus Strong Debate - It doesn't matter which you use. You will rank fine with both.

ALT's - If you left them all blank, other factors would still be enough to get you to the top. Now I don't recommend doing this, you should accurately describe what your images are. If you SPAM in here you can do damage, but that is not what this list is for.

Code to Content Ratio - Not sure how this myth started, but Google and other search engines will find the content on your website regardless of you "ratio".

Clean Code - I think this one has been "sort-of put to bed, but I just want to be clear again. You don't need to adhere to W3 standards to rank. Of course if you working with a designer and putting together a new website and they are choosing not to design a "clean" website I would ask them. You designer should be worrying about this, not your SEO.

Comment Tags - Completely worthless fro SEO. Don't need to use them. if you do use them, just be sensible about it. Like the ALT's, you spam in here you will eventually get caught.

Title and Meta Tags - OK very simply put you the description and title tag helps you rank. The keyword tag is unnecessary to rank for SEO. Now if you want to use it go ahead, feel free. I use them when clients have internal search engines. It is a great tool for relevancy when using internal search. Of course the big boy SE's barely consider them and like other items above, if you spamming in them you will get hurt in the end. One thing to note here, if you are using title and description tags make sure they are very unique to each other. Most of the SE's use the description and title tag now to spot duplication.

Magic Back Link Goals - Their is no magic or goal number when acquiring backlinks. This is not a quantitative game. it is a quality game. Just concentrate on getting high relevant websites linking to you with the keywords you wan tot rank for. You don't need so many per month. Just let it happen naturally. If your the best at what you do it will happen over time.

Keyword Density - This is simply not important. Their is no magic percentage. Just write copy fro end visitors. Naturally if you writing copy about DVD players, you going to use it here and there in the copy without even thinking about it. Once again here you can spam and have keyword insertions in an unnatural way. Eventually you will get caught. Just relax and write.

I am sure I am forgeting some, but I just wrote this of the top of my head.

Now I am not looking to list what SEO factors we need to implement on client websites. Just the ones that that we could use, but are not absolutely necessary to rank. Sure it would be nice to create a semantically correct website when doing SEO, but it sure as shit is not necessary to rank. And if your SEO gets you rankings and sales without doing everything in W3 standards, then more power to him.

Please feel free to list some of the other ones you feel you can do without, while still getting great rankings and sales.

In a related topic Oilman goes further and talks about why SEO is not "bullshit" and "stupid easy".

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Bold Versus Strong Debate - It doesn't matter which you use. You will rank fine with both.

Is does for Googles Accessible Search.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

ALT's - If you left them all blank, other factors would still be enough to get you to the top.

Does that mean that using them cannot help you too boost your rankings higher if all other factors are achieved?

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Code to Content Ratio - Not sure how this myth started, but Google and other search engines will find the content on your website regardless of you "ratio".

That started at SEOChat. So far I can remember. But you have no facts to prove the opposite either.

The text content ratio is the percentage of the page which is actual content, as opposed to the portion which is HTML tags, scripts, etc. One of the factors that some search engines use in determining the relevancy of a web page to a particular search is the percentage of text content in the web page.

Many SEO professionals ignore this aspect of web sites, pointing to comments by some of the search engine personnel themselves stating that this has very little to do with the search results.

This may be true for some search engines, but optimization should not target simply one search engine. You should also keep in mind that the algorithms used to calculate search results are constantly changing.

Having a higher text content ratio also provides the added benefit of helping your pages to load faster.

The text content ratio is the percentage of the page which is actual content, as opposed to the portion which is HTML tags, scripts, etc. One of the factors that some search engines use in determining the relevancy of a web page to a particular search is the percentage of text content in the web page.

Many SEO professionals ignore this aspect of web sites, pointing to comments by some of the search engine personnel themselves stating that this has very little to do with the search results.

This may be true for some search engines, but optimization should not target simply one search engine. You should also keep in mind that the algorithms used to calculate search results are constantly changing.

Having a higher text content ratio also provides the added benefit of helping your pages to load faster.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Clean Code - I think this one has been "sort-of put to bed, but I just want to be clear again. You don't need to adhere to W3 standards to rank. Of course if you working with a designer and putting together a new website and they are choosing not to design a "clean" website I would ask them. You designer should be worrying about this, not your SEO.

You do for Googles Accessible Search. The first Accessibility Level (W3C/WAI-WCAG A) requires valid code. Also about Yahoo: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic...=345432#345432

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I am sure I am forgeting some, but I just wrote this of the top of my head.

Looking forward for the next ones.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Sure it would be nice to create a semantically correct website when doing SEO, but it sure as shit is not necessary to rank.

Sure it would be nice? Is that not the major factor for the on-site SEO? WHAT??? You better look into software development/engineering to avoid such fatal erroneous statements.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

And if your SEO gets you rankings and sales without doing everything in W3 standards, then more power to him.

I am affraid we both know why you say that, but anyway...

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Please feel free to list some of the other ones you feel you can do without, while still getting great rankings and sales.

But not the maximum possible.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

In a related topic Oilman goes further and talks about why SEO is not "bullshit" and "stupid easy".

Great article!!! Millions of thanks!!! You shot yourself in the foot Jaan with this one. This guy is talking about semantical structure too:

Originally Posted by Oilman

It’s become second nature to create unique, keyword rich Title tags and design a web template with H1’s, text navigation and proper ALT tags. It’s what we do and we should be able to do it with our eyes closed and get it right the first time. To say that it’s stupid easy is simply arrogant.

Thanks for supporting my preachings. :)

[incrediblehelp]

I knew you would be the first response Webnauts, LOL.

I know this is going to sound cruel, but when someone hires me or when I send a proposal out I have never been asked about "Google's Accessible Search". Clients don't care how they rank on it. It is that simple. Now on the design side that may be different and it probably should be.

With all things being equal, which they never are, I still don't think taking hours adjusting and playing with ALT's is worth. once again opinion!

On the code to content ratio part, how much faster will the page load by spending dozens of man hours on this? Sure if the page is loading slow, then do what it takes to make it load faster. of course this makes sense since the bot will not stick around. But these threads here and at many other SEO forums are making this out to be some sort of epidemic. When in reality it is not.

Webnauts I understand your position on semantic web structure and everyone one who follows WPW does do. You can see the purpose of this thread I would appreciate if you don't hijack it again and just preach from the mountain top about why W3 standards are so great and semantic web structure is so important.

I simply posted Oilman's thread because it was related. You act as if I am against semantically web structure. Far from it. But I am not going to scare a client into thinking it is necessary to rank. Do you?

Do you up sell them on the dozens of extra web design hours that it will take to do it, when it is totally unnecessary to get them ranked? Please help me understand, because when I get to a clients website I sell them SEO primarily if that is what they are asking for. If their design is in such bad shape that SEO tactics cant be implemented then I recommend a designer and at THAT point your ideas on semantical structure can be discussed. Get it yet?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I knew you would be the first response Webnauts, LOL.

I knew you thought about that. LOL

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I know this is going to sound cruel, but when someone hires me or when I send a proposal out I have never been asked about "Google's Accessible Search".

I thought doing SEO is for all engines. Hmmm...

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Clients don't care how they rank on it.

How do you know? Do you want to say that clients are retarted? They would not like to be found by 10% more potential visitors?

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

It is that simple. Now on the design side that may be different and it probably should be.

Why only for the design? Google loves accessible pages. And here are the facts: http://webstandardsgroup.org/resourc...accessibility/

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

With all things being equal, which they never are, I still don't think taking hours adjusting and playing with ALT's is worth. once again opinion!

Taking hours to edit alt attributes? I hope you were kidding about here.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

On the code to content ratio part, how much faster will the page load by spending dozens of man hours on this?

Dozens of man hours? Before I make any further comments, did you ever design a web site?

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Sure if the page is loading slow, then do what it takes to make it load faster. of course this makes sense since the bot will not stick around. But these threads here and at many other SEO forums are making this out to be some sort of epidemic. When in reality it is not.

Strange though that so many forums have that discussion and that so many sites have a tool for that, like at SEO Chat, RankQuest and endless of others.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Webnauts I understand your position on semantic web structure and everyone one who follows WPW does do.

That is not my position. That is the position of Software Engineering. Do you have any idea what languages computers understand? Did you ever hear anything about taxonomy or ontology? If you will, you will recall your statement here.
What about having a look here: http://www.isedb.com/db/articles/1491/

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

You can see the purpose of this thread I would appreciate if you don't hijack it again and just preach from the mountain top about why W3 standards are so great and semantic web structure is so important.

I do not want to hijack this or any other thread. I am fully on topic.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I simply posted Oilman's thread because it was related. You act as if I am against semantically web structure. Far from it. But I am not going to scare a client into thinking it is necessary to rank. Do you?

You do not need to scare your client. You have to consult him that he needs to improve his semantical structure for better rankings. To be specific:

- That he needs a <tilte> tag, if he does not have one.
- That he needs an <h1> or <h2> etc tags, if he does not have any.
- Etc

Or did I miss something? So isn't semantical structure important? Do you know that you are arguing all the time against the above tags?

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Do you up sell them on the dozens of extra web design hours that it will take to do it, when it is totally unnecessary to get them ranked?

See my previous answer.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Please help me understand, because when I get to a clients website I sell them SEO primarily if that is what they are asking for. If their design is in such bad shape that SEO tactics cant be implemented then I recommend a designer and at THAT point your ideas on semantical structure can be discussed. Get it yet?

I think my previous answer is valid here too.

So, did I hijack the thread so far? I did not mention any word about that organization starting with "W" and ending with "3".

[Pascal77]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Not sure how this post will fly over here at WPW, but here goes.

Comment Tags - Completely worthless fro SEO. Don't need to use them. if you do use them, just be sensible about it. Like the ALT's, you spam in here you will eventually get caught.

I think you looked at this thread :
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=71311

I always thought the same as you that it doesn't matter. Now i don't know, i tend to believe you are still right but i find this something intresting if the first 3 all have that on their page while their backlinks or onsite factors aren't (much) better then the rest that is listed on SERP1.

I'm also sure that i don't find this on Google.com for important keywords but for this specific phrase i'm seeing it and i find that intresting.
Maybe if you abuse it you will get penalized and because the .be SE is 1 of the smaller engines of Google it doesn't get edited on spam as much as important countries.

(Don't know if you see the same sites as i see on 1,2 and 3)

[Steven1976a]

Good Thread and good entertainment!

[Steven1976a]

On a serious note, I would be interested to learn what kind of proposal Webnaughts you offer for SEO in regards to taking on a website which would be databased asp.

What would you offer in terms of approach to the SEO?
What kind of results would we expect?
Duration to implement changes?
How competitve in pricing to other companies?

Before you think Im getting on your case, Im not. I can see you are confident in what you do and therefore I think it would be interesting to consider any options as we are making a new site we and it is being made by a programmer who has little knowledge of SEO as far as i know but is implementing some good tools on the site which we are happy with.

[thegypsy]

Hey IH.. list looks bang on to me... ol WebNauts loves accessability - didn't you know? Been here a short time and figured that one out - he he

Great list though... did U put it on your blog or anywhere? I'd happily throw out some link love from my personal site...

Other than that... I ain't messin with it..this thread got lost looonngg ago..

L8TR

[stymiee]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Bold Versus Strong Debate - It doesn't matter which you use. You will rank fine with both.

As confirmed by Matt Cutts. However, for screen readers using [b] would be preferred as it requires the screen reader to provide special emphasis to the contained text.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

ALT's - If you left them all blank, other factors would still be enough to get you to the top. Now I don't recommend doing this, you should accurately describe what your images are. If you SPAM in here you can do damage, but that is not what this list is for.

True. They have virtually no weight in SEO thanks to keyword stuffing. But alt attributes should always be done for accessibility and usability purposes. If you are using alt attributes for SEO purposes then you clearly do not understand how to build a website properly and also probably have many other issues that will cause you not to rank well. Alt attributes are that basic. (Not saying this to you. Just a point in general).

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Code to Content Ratio - Not sure how this myth started, but Google and other search engines will find the content on your website regardless of you "ratio".

100% agree. This is a useless myth that never seems to die.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Clean Code - I think this one has been "sort-of put to bed, but I just want to be clear again. You don't need to adhere to W3 standards to rank. Of course if you working with a designer and putting together a new website and they are choosing not to design a "clean" website I would ask them. You designer should be worrying about this, not your SEO.

You should have clean code to make your site load faster and be easier to maintain. There is no direct correlation between clean code and SEO. The closest it comes is if you have clean code there is less likely a chance for the search engine crawlers to encounter a parsing error while crawling your site.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Comment Tags - Completely worthless fro SEO. Don't need to use them. if you do use them, just be sensible about it. Like the ALT's, you spam in here you will eventually get caught.

100% agreed.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Title and Meta Tags - OK very simply put you the description and title tag helps you rank. The keyword tag is unnecessary to rank for SEO. Now if you want to use it go ahead, feel free. I use them when clients have internal search engines. It is a great tool for relevancy when using internal search. Of course the big boy SE's barely consider them and like other items above, if you spamming in them you will get hurt in the end. One thing to note here, if you are using title and description tags make sure they are very unique to each other. Most of the SE's use the description and title tag now to spot duplication.

Let's start with Meta tags. useless for SEO. Meta tags will not have any impact on your rankings. Period. They're dead. People need to get over it. They used to work back in the day when you could also just repeat a word on your webpage over and over again to rank well for your terms. But nowadays search engines are so advanced that they do not need to rely on a hidden tag that the webmaster has total control over and has no effect on the user experience. A great way to tell someone is a SEO newbie is they tell you how important meta tags are. (Yes, you should use meta tags as they do serve other purposes. Your description tag should be appropriate as it might belisted in the SERPs.)

As for title tags, write for the humans, not the search engines. If you cram in a bunch of keywords into your title you may rank well for it (probably not actually) but less people will click on your link sinec the title doesn't tell them what they want to know: what your page is about in plain english (or whatever language your site is in). Write a short, concise title that is descriptive and contains your primary keywords.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Magic Back Link Goals - Their is no magic or goal number when acquiring backlinks. This is not a quantitative game. it is a quality game. Just concentrate on getting high relevant websites linking to you with the keywords you wan tot rank for. You don't need so many per month. Just let it happen naturally. If your the best at what you do it will happen over time.

I just had to smite someone at another forum for making the exact opposite argument. It is all about quality. Period. (And if you want quality links, have quality content on your wesbite. That's the best way to get it).

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Keyword Density - This is simply not important. Their is no magic percentage. Just write copy fro end visitors. Naturally if you writing copy about DVD players, you going to use it here and there in the copy without even thinking about it. Once again here you can spam and have keyword insertions in an unnatural way. Eventually you will get caught. Just relax and write.

Another stupid myth that has to die. I just recently wrote an article that was unique and very high quality. I never gave one thought to keyword density. I focused solely on the quality of the content. The result? I got a ton of high quality links and so many leads for my services that I have to turn people away. And I'm charging a premium for my services.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by stymiee

As confirmed by Matt Cutts. However, for screen readers using [b] would be preferred as it requires the screen reader to provide special emphasis to the contained text.

Only one question here: How does Google Accessible Search work? What do they use for criterias? Don't they try to implement the W3C/WAI WCAG? Or are they developing own accessibility guidelines? Why do my sites rank much better in their accessible search? Just being curious...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by stymiee

But alt attributes should always be done for accessibility and usability purposes.

Stymiee how could you dare to mention the words accessibility and usability here?
Don't you see here how many do not care if their site is accessible or usable, except that their sites rank high in the search engines? To be specific, how many care after all, if the clients can access their content and use it.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Clean Code - I think this one has been "sort-of put to bed, but I just want to be clear again. You don't need to adhere to W3 standards to rank. Of course if you working with a designer and putting together a new website and they are choosing not to design a "clean" website I would ask them. You designer should be worrying about this, not your SEO.

Originally Posted by stymiee

The closest it comes is if you have clean code there is less likely a chance for the search engine crawlers to encounter a parsing error while crawling your site.

What the hell am I talking about all the time!!! But many just say. NO! That is not true. Spiders pickup the content and basta! Thanks for supporting here.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by stymiee

True. They have virtually no weight in SEO thanks to keyword stuffing. But alt attributes should always be done for accessibility and usability purposes. If you are using alt attributes for SEO purposes then you clearly do not understand how to build a website properly and also probably have many other issues that will cause you not to rank well. Alt attributes are that basic. (Not saying this to you. Just a point in general).

Seems like you are well informed about these issues, so I have another question:

How can Search Engines interpret the meaning of web site objects? Or do you probably need an example?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

What would you offer in terms of approach to the SEO?

Our basic services are published on our web site at the services page.
Further services we offer, we mention when customers ask us for a quote.

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

What kind of results would we expect?

Best possible! Upon request, we provide last minute results of our most recent clients sites as evidence.

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

Duration to implement changes?

Depends on the findings and the size of the site.

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

How competitve in pricing to other companies?

Good question. We never care about what others charge, so I have no idea. When clients ask us that question, we answer straight away: WYPIWYG.

What does that mean? What You Pay Is What You Get!

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

Before you think Im getting on your case, Im not.

No problem Steve. Its ok buddy.

Originally Posted by Steven1976a

I can see you are confident in what you do and therefore I think it would be interesting to consider any options as we are making a new site we and it is being made by a programmer who has little knowledge of SEO as far as i know but is implementing some good tools on the site which we are happy with.

Well, just send me a PM with your email address, and I will get back to you with more details.

Thanks for the kind words by the way.

[Webnauts]

Back to the alt attribute issues. Check here what Google says about all that:

[google]Don't use images to display important names, content, or links. Our crawler doesn't recognize text contained in graphics. Use ALT tags if the main content and keywords on your page can't be formatted in regular HTML.[/google]

I think it is funny that I am so strange as Google is. LOL

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by thegypsy

Hey IH.. list looks bang on to me... ol WebNauts loves accessability - didn't you know? Been here a short time and figured that one out - he he

Hey IH.. list doen't look bang on to me... ol Google loves accessability - didn't you know? Been here a long time and figured that one out too - he he

[google]Make your site easily accessible
Build your site with a logical link structure. Every page should be reachable from at least one static text link.[/google]

More about this issue, see the W3C/WAI Web Content Accessibility Guideline 13: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/...ate-navigation

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

With all things being equal, which they never are, I still don't think taking hours adjusting and playing with ALT's is worth. once again opinion!

So alt attributes do not boost rankings. We agree! But they can make a lot of sense and be very useful: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=345694

[incrediblehelp]

bump

Any further comments for those that missed this thread?

I cleaned it up a bit.