Should I remove my old domain from Google and Yahoo?

greg artim · #1 (**permalink**) 12-20-2006, 03:34 PM

I had a website built for www.ihatemylemon.com. it is a lemon law website. i read all of the seo articles that i could find. within a month, on yahoo and msn i was 1st page for many keyword searches. never ranked on google (like 1 million or something). as soon as i got first page on msn, i discovered that i had a trademark violation and had to shut down the site completely. afraid to do redirects because of the trademark problem. i changed the name to www.ihatethislemon.com and resubmitted to the major engines. after about two weeks, i am perfect again on yahoo, first page on many keywords. the old site disappeared from yahoo. but my new site does not show on msn and google at all. in fact, my old site still sits at the top of the rankings for several searches, even though it has been down for about three weeks. my question is, should i tell msn and google to delete my old domain listings? or should i let it occur naturally. How long will it take to occur naturally? my fear in telling them to remove the domain is the similarity between the names. any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

stymiee · #2 (**permalink**) 12-20-2006, 07:33 PM

Changing domains like that is SEO suicide. You are essentially starting from scratch which is not a good thing to do. Ue a 301 redirect for the old page to the new pages and that will help the search engines realized you have moved. If the pages are the same but only the domain is changed that is easy to fix with a few lines of code in a .htaccess file.

greg artim · #3 (**permalink**) 12-20-2006, 10:59 PM

i had no choice but to switch. the words "mylemon" are trademarked. my patent attorney advised me to shut it down immediately, so my webmaster put up a page that says "host not configured". cant redirect either, because that would be like still using the old, trademarked name. the new page is exactly the same as the old one, just a different domain name. the old page is gone.

**incrediblehelp** · #4 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 04:46 PM

Considering why you had to let go of the domain name I would let it happen naturally.

Serrbiz · #5 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:02 PM

Given that you were hit with a trademark infringement, you could still be liable, in my lay opinion.

Trademark infringements can cost up to $100K per incident.

So, I would suggest you kill it completely, and start over.

AussieWebmaster · #6 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:28 PM

I would still do the 301 redirect.... you are redirecting the links to the site.... has the attorney said a redirect is not allowed?

krisidious · #7 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:30 PM

I suggest a program like www.Link-Assistant.com do a search for all of your back-links... then use the e-mail in the program to contact all those link holders and explain the situation, you might include something to the effect of, "to protect you, my link partners from any legal action. I have made this process as painless as possible, explain further and give new linking info.

I also suggest keeping the domain active for like 30 or 60 days with a 301 redirect on it. sending all the traffic on to your new domain after a few seconds on the old page explaining what the issue is.

write the company whom you infringed upon and tell them you intend to cease and desist, and that you will be redirecting your traffic. they have no recourse if you are complying with their cease and desist.

tell them in your letter that you are going to be forwarding the domain to their ownership at the end of the 30 or 60 days... and apologize for any misinterpretation.

keep those e-mails and keep aftetr those webmasters to change those links, and with the 301's your SERP listings should follow soon after...

good luck

krisidious · #8 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:36 PM

good luck getting a indexed page removed... a cease and desist from the trademark holder would maybe do it...

I don't understand the infringement, just because they tell you that you're infringing doesn't mean you are, can we have the exact info on this case?

what are the websites and who says you're infringing.? because if this is legal opinion you maybe protect under first amendment rights...

I believe you can own a website called I hate pepsi . com as long as you don't profit from it.

craigmn3 · #9 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 06:32 PM

It sounds to me that you have a handle on designing search engine frield designs.

It is no mistake that you did not show on google, you were sand boxed for being new.

Just start again and watch the same success bloom where it did before.

Mean while do a Domain forwarding on the copyrighted domain until it it is shut down.

Then get huge.....and stick right back in those ....skip that part.

bj · #10 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 06:47 PM

One of my clients had this exact thing happen to him. He did the redirect for 15 days, which was all they gave him. During that time he also wrote to Google, Yahoo and MSN and explained what had happened. He then started working on getting all his backlinks changed. He didn't think that the notification to the SEs would help, but it did. Within 30 days the new site was pretty damn close to the SERP position for certain keyphrases as it had been originally. I also blogged the situation, with links to the new site, and changed all links on my site to him to his new location.

He had a month's dip in traffic, and then things took an upswing. Within 60 days he'd returned to normal. He was 5 months in when this happened and had built up a fairly nice traffic flow. Did it hurt? Yes, but not nearly as much as either of us expected it would.

krisidious · #11 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 06:58 PM

btw...

I saw this on WebProNews the other day...

http://www.google.com/dmca.html you can submit directly to the google legal department and get things moving fast... on any copyright infringment...

DrTandem1 · #12 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 08:28 PM

Yes, you should disassociate the domain from anything you are doing. You have already been notified by the trademark holder of My-Lemon and advised by YOUR attorney to remove it. Not to do so may (probably will) make you vulnerable to a lawsuit.

As a gesture of goodwill, I suggest you offer to transfer the domain to the trademark holder. It only has 10 months before it lapses. Besides, they can take it anyway. What are you out, $10?

Next, get with your attorney and register your new business name as a trademark so someone else doesn't come and take your new domain name.

sysopdan · #13 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:54 PM

The trademark is "my-lemon" and not "mylemon". They are not the same thing. Copyright law and trademark is very different. Titles are not protected by copyrights. The trademark does NOT protect common English words, only the specfic mark with the dash.

Trademarks on common English words are the weakest trademarks there are. Those words should never have been granted a trademark as they are in common usage.
But again, it is ONLY a trademark with the dash.

In addition, the mark is registered in only one class, legal services. There are many classes of goods and services, and the registration of a mark in one class of a good or service does NOT protect it in any other class. Plus, there is a class for websites, and he does not have it registered in that class. The arguments a well known company could make about confusion and a lot of other things that are usually elements could not even be raised here, much less proven.

The ONLY thing you can't do is use "my-lemon" in conjuction with legal services concerning lemon automobiles. Many trademarks are much more narrow than their holders like to claim.

Of course you don't want a legal battle, but the owner is an individual and not likely to have the funds to start and maintain an action in U.S. District Court. He would also face having the trademark invalidated. Even if that didn't happen the court could still find that there was no infringement and make him pay your attorney fees. Starting a weak case can backfire big time.

Ameritech tried a similar stunt with me over a domain. They spent $65,000 on outside counsel and I was pro se. The case was dismissed so they had to eat it.

I would redirect the domain name. Of course I am not an attorney or giving legal advice. I have seen b.s. like this before and hate it.

Tell your attorney to study trademark law before trying to practice it.

P.S. A note on the previous message. No, I would NOT give it to the guy. Secondly, there is NO WAY he can take it in any federal court. Judges understand trademark law, esp. D.C.

I would only offer to put a statement on the site it was not related to the copyright holder, or offer a prominent link for people wanting an attorney on that issue. (I assume you are not offering legal services, not being an attorney.)

Again, he does NOT have a trademark on "my" or "lemon" or "mylemon", he ONLY has a trademark on "my-lemon". He doesn't NOT own the words, only the lame specific mark of "my dash lemon." That's it.

WORD OF ADVICE TO EVERYONE: Before registering any domain, even common words, do a federal trademark search. Then do a state search for your state.

snowflakegirl · #14 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 10:15 PM

Don't be too quick to bail out.

I too was confronted by a person claiming to have a Trademark on a word in one of my domain names. "Chrismon" http://www.paperchrismons.com. After a bit of copyright/trademark investigation on my part and a few worrysome nights it turned out that the person not only did NOT own the trademark but had been told by the actual older of the trademark to cease and desist using the term. I contacted the actual trademark holder and received permission.

DrTandem1 · #15 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 10:23 PM

"mylemon" as in the domain name and "My Lemon" in the trademarked name only need to cause reasonable confusion. Also, domain name words are expected to run together and/or be hyphenated. It makes no difference. ICANN will take the name and award it to the trademark holder. Take your attorney's advice. That's why you pay him/her.

If you don't believe your attorney, I suggest you simply do some on-line searches on case law. Also, ICANN relies on much less stringent conditions. They don't even need a trial.

Take the high road.

DrTandem1 · #16 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 10:25 PM

In this case, a simple search at the USPTO shows that My-Lemon, a business regarding defective vehicles, is trademarked.

The poster has the ability and the responsibility to mitigate damages to the claimant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowflakegirl

Don't be too quick to bail out.

I too was confronted by a person claiming to have a Trademark on a word in one of my domain names. "Chrismon" http://www.paperchrismons.com. After a bit of copyright/trademark investigation on my part and a few worrysome nights it turned out that the person not only did NOT own the trademark but had been told by the actual older of the trademark to cease and desist using the term. I contacted the actual trademark holder and received permission.

sysopdan · #17 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 11:06 PM

ICANN procedures I do not really know well. However, as far as federal law, district courts I am 100 percent correct.

I read plenty of intellectual property case law.

The trademark owner does NOT own the words, only the specific mark. This is a common error many people make and plenty of lawyers too. Most attorneys have limited understanding of intellectual property law, much less case law.

If you coin a word, the trademark is strong. In the case of common English words it is very weak.

And, how would the trademark owner ever be able to claim specific damages, much less prove them?

ICANN can not award damages.

greg artim · #18 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 12:17 AM

i appreciate the heavy response here, thanks. i think some of you have missed the facts here, obviously because i didnt give enough, and are getting off track focusing on the trademark thing. I am a lemon law attorney, practicing in Pennsylvania. i know almost nothing about patent/trademark law. when i decided to start a website, the domain name i chose was available and i did not do a search beforehand and it was a very stupid mistake. (hey, i sue car manufacturers all day, thats it) the trademark holder is also a lemon law attorney, practicing in Pennsylvania. his website is mylemon.com. we are competing for the exact same business, and i intend to profit from the pursuit of that business. in that regard there is a clear potential trademark violation on my part, though it was not done in bad faith, which i have found is a requirement of TM violations. upon his cease and desist notice, i did just that.

the problem that i have is that i cannot get my new site indexed on google or msn, as the old site is still there. im not even talking about getting good search results, i mean just getting recognized by the search engines.

google has a "delete my domain" selection (paraphrasing there). should i use that and blow it up, or just leave it offline and wait for natural deletion? which way might be faster? btw i have been contacting all of the links to my old site and asking them to switch. many of them have, but there are several dozen that have not.

krisidious · #19 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 12:23 AM

hit the dmca link i gave above and they'll blow it up for you...

rather quickly I would think...

and a little trick to get indexed by google quickly... sign up for google adsense...

the google bot visits my site about 200 times a week and the google adsense robot visits about 350 times a week...

blow it up if you're worried... other wise use the 301 redirect to let the index (google) know that the website is moving...

he'll wait on the name...
I still think it's not infringement

;P

greg artim · #20 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 12:26 AM

by the way, the trademark holder has been great. there is no threatened lawsuit or anything like that. he just asked me to take the site down because he had a trademark and we were competing. i took it down immediately and end of story. he didnt want mylemon used for legal services and he has every right to ask that. i just want to get the old site removed and the new one showing up.

301 redirect, can someone explain that? wouldnt that make the old site "active" again, for lack of a better word?

greg artim · #21 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 12:28 AM

i am doing Adwords, will that do it? or just adSense?

krisidious · #22 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 01:15 AM

adsense... where they pay you money...

301 redirect wouldn't really make the site live... although you would have to have hosting and dns control. it would be alive, the domain would not stay in the address bar above...
but it would transfer the site rank and listings to the new

it works like this...

you do some htaccess files changing and when someone types in your domain or follows a link to your old site. it has a place holder there that says, hey this site has moved to this... www.nolemons.com

and then a few seconds later it automatically sends the visitor on to the new website... the serp spiders can see this action and take note of it. after a few weeks or however long, the serps will show the new domain and not the old one.

hope this helps..