Nightmare SEO Clients

[optimalwebsite]

Hi there,

A while back i started putting together a website for a nightmare client.... I mention no names here, for obvious reasons. It started off as a way to lend a hand to a friend. That's how it started anyway.

Two meetings later and we'd finally agreed a design for him. Wrote lots of optimised copy for him. Which he then deleted, changed and rewrote. Sorted out 5 good quality link swaps... which he then took down. More meetings. More 7 o-clock (its too late for this, please leave me in peace) phonce calls. two more meetings. More changes of prices for no apparent reason. More rewriting copy... then.... he asks, for no apparent reason, "how can we get a higher ranking then?"

GRRRRRR!

I bit my tounge and didn't say anything...

The moral of the story seems to be be:

A) Don't work for friends.
B) Ask for more money!


Joel

[Steven1976a]

I think the moral of the story should be

Have a contract of what your going to do for them.
Once you have done the jobs you say to them if they then change everything and want you to fix it simply draw up a new contract with new rates.

[optimalwebsite]

Contract? It started out just helping a friend... it would be like having a contract to feed your neighbours cat when they were on holiday!

Joel

[Steven1976a]

"B) Ask for more money! "

Do you charge to look after his cat when hes on holiday?

If its only help then why continue. Just walk away from it and tell him your busy with other stuff. Maybe give him advice over a beer in a bar and leave him to it as he is obviously feels he knows best.

[stymiee]

Originally Posted by optimalwebsite

Contract? It started out just helping a friend... it would be like having a contract to feed your neighbours cat when they were on holiday!

Joel

That's why you are having problems. When doing work for anybody a contract is required. If they really are your friend they will understand.

[optimalwebsite]

are you guys telling me THAT NO-ONE ELSE HERE HAS EVER HAD A BAD CLIENT??? One with completely unrealistic expectations, no budget, and then doesn't pay your invoice anyway?

Come on you guys, fess up!

Joel

[Feydakin]

Everyone has had unrealistic clients.. Those are the ones that you fire.. And yes, any time money is changing hands there really needs to be a contract.. It doesn't always need to be a formal lawyer written document, but at least an outline of the job requirements and goals, with metion of payment milestones..

As for the unpaid invoice, that's what small claims court is for if you don't mind loosing the friend.. Which, by not paying your bill he seems perfectly comfortable with..

[Ne0]

The only nightmare clients I've ever had... were the ones that didn't want to sign a contract, and wanted to pay FAR under bid for the job to be done...

I have done three sites for people I've known for 20+ yrs (and each was more than happy to sign the contract) I also gave each of them a discount - but I was still paid well for my services...

.02

[ran_dizolph]

I'm going to be blunt;

a.) your friend sounds like a bit of an ass...you may want to reconsider this 'friendship' if this is the sort of person he/she is.

b.) you don't seem to have come outright and let your friend know where you stand.

i don't care how good of friends you are, you are providing him with a service which you agreed he would pay for.

if he's not paying up, walk away!

next time, write up a contract. i just did a fairly decent sized project for a good friend, and he had NO issues with me producing a contract for the work, simply outlining how much he would pay me, and how much work i would provide for him in exchange.

[NameCritic]

The statement about firing clients was dead on. every now and then it's just better to kick one to the curb than to stress over it. The ones you try to kick to the curb are the ones who come back and play nice next time because they know they need you more than you need them.

It's not an attitude issue. if the client keeps making changes to your work then why did they hire you in the first place. I don't let clients tell me how to do my job. I spell out what I am going to do for them and for how much and ask when they want me to start. I usually do extra for them if they leave me alone and let me do my job.

reminds me of a sign i saw in a mechanic's shop.

labor; $10/hr
$15 if you watch
$20 if you help.

[iwebgeek]

Originally Posted by NameCritic

T

reminds me of a sign i saw in a mechanic's shop.

labor; $10/hr
$15 if you watch
$20 if you help.

Haha! We had a sign like that when I used to work at a photo retouching place.

It went something along these lines...

Retouch: $35/hr
If you talk: $40/hr
If you point: $45/hr
If you look over our shoulders: $50/hr
If you try to help: $60/hr

[Irishjim]

This sounds like every client I have.

[craigmn3]

C-o-m-m-u-n-i-c-a-t-i-o-n

Don't bite your tounge. Speak

You are the professional. Tell your friend that if he wants a high ranking he's going to have to do what you want. He "hired" you to do a job, tell him to let you do your job or he's on his own.

and then if he is a friend....he will still be a friend. If not, he never really was.

[tsawyer2000]

Do business with family or friends. It will bite you in the ass every time!

[nerdDesignGroup]

Sounds like a CEO. Hired me to do a job and I produced, but wanted to change my methods, helping is fine, but if you are in the field your friend should give the benifit of the doubt. And if you have a track record - there you go. Firing customers is easier if it isn't your friend. I would recommend, since you don't have a contract, which you should have :-) , is to give him/her all of your source code and tell them you will have a beer with them as previously stated to give pointers and tell them you have another client who is paying well to work with.

And next time tell him an hourly rate and charge for them being on hold. (well thats mean, but lawyers get away with it)

[blitzen]

Originally Posted by optimalwebsite

A) Don't work for friends.
B) Ask for more money!

That's the truth.

Unless they're paying for it, they won't gain anything. And they certainly won't appreciate your hard work.

Give your friend a manual or a few links to "How-To" websites and simply tell him/her that you have other priorities ahead of theirs.

Include a link to this topic, too.

Good luck - you're a good person.

[chrisJumbo]

Contract, Contract and
Communication, Communication.

I do contract work for a close associate. We have kept it that way on purpose. He knows what I charge and he pays me everytime.

Usually, if I do work for friends it is pro-bono and small jobs that don't take too much time.

Just have an honest conversation with them. If they don't like it, go on your way.

They will probably come around at some point.

[jScott_Harris]

I once had a client who owned a Motel 8 that wanted to rank #1 for jacuzzi and used cars(his cousin owned a used car lot!). He wouldn't let us do anymore work till we guaranteed it....nut job

doesn't any read Shark Tank? http://www.computerworld.com/action/...&date=20061214

[SemAdvance]

I had client horrors. I started getting more involved in finding their real goals and then setting their expectations.

I've lost more clients this way.. but the ones I do keep pay better and on time.

I've also learned to walk away when the budget is too low as opposed to trying to squeek through...again better to lose the possible client than lower prices just to land an account.

[corporateface]

I think that a good rule of thumb when "helping" people is ...

a) at least have some kind of written document that states what is needed (even adding a signature to your meeting notes will do)

b) you have to set up boundaries in your relationships. I present myself as a professional website and marketing company, so when friends and family want work, I approach them professionaly when it comes to my work. I am much more willing to "help" friends and family who are willing to recognize that this is how I am feeding my 6 kids than someone who wants a freebie and is willing to take advantage of my time.

c) don't be afraid to get real with clients. if they cross a line then you need to let them know. Part of project management is managing your clients and their expectations.

[MarcThai]

Originally Posted by optimalwebsite

More rewriting copy... then.... he asks, for no apparent reason, "how can we get a higher ranking then?"
A) Don't work for friends.
B) Ask for more money!

Joel, if you are having these problems then perhaps you are in the wrong business. SEO is a very serious business and if you haven't got a decent contract, stating specific services, fees, and even how to send payments, then you are definitely in the wrong business.

[MarcThai]

Originally Posted by jScott_Harris

I once had a client who owned a Motel 8 that wanted to rank #1 for jacuzzi and used cars(his cousin owned a used car lot!). He wouldn't let us do anymore work till we guaranteed it....nut job

Oh man! I would kill for a hair style like yours Mr Harris.

[pdstein]

Originally Posted by corporateface

b) you have to set up boundaries in your relationships. I present myself as a professional website and marketing company, so when friends and family want work, I approach them professionaly when it comes to my work. I am much more willing to "help" friends and family who are willing to recognize that this is how I am feeding my 6 kids than someone who wants a freebie and is willing to take advantage of my time.

c) don't be afraid to get real with clients. if they cross a line then you need to let them know. Part of project management is managing your clients and their expectations.

I agree with these two in particular. You may think you're helping your friend by biting your tongue, but it's probably doing more harm than good for several reasons.

First, this is probably the first time your friend has worked with an SEO, so he could be ignorant about where the lines are. If you don't explain things to him and then pass on future work with him, you are setting him up for a bad experience with any other SEOs he might work with.

Second, if he is aware that he's crossed the line, then you still need to be up front with him about it if you want to have enough time to do other work you need to do to earn a living.

Third, you may think you're preserving the friendship by being nice, but you are already resenting him for it which is harmful to the friendship. You're much more likely to still have a friend after this project is over if you have an honest conversation with him about this now.

[jScott_Harris]

MarcThai, you'll have to thank the wonderful staff of WebProWorld for that.....without them, I would have no mullet power

[jrb@w3f.com]

Originally Posted by craigmn3

C-o-m-m-u-n-i-c-a-t-i-o-n

Don't bite your tounge. Speak

You are the professional. Tell your friend that if he wants a high ranking he's going to have to do what you want. He "hired" you to do a job, tell him to let you do your job or he's on his own.

and then if he is a friend....he will still be a friend. If not, he never really was.

EXACTAMUNDO!

I believe your frustration would be resolved by Craig's advice here. It is amazing how our anger builds with every thought of someone we don't communicate with. It is also amazing how much we blow it all out of proportion only in our mind.

TALK TO HIM. Explain the problems, not attitudes.
I believe that Craigs predictions will come true, it always does for me.

"Don't let the turkeys get ya down".

[sundial7]

Make use of and write up proposals and contracts so that you leave no doubt as to what is expected from you or for your client even if it is for your friends. A working contract should also require 1/3 of money due as a downpayment. The rest can be paid in installments as work progresses. The proposal is a guide. It defines what to expect and what is expected.You also have more control.

[cryptblade]

Man - I dont see why there were so many people hard on you (optimalwebsite) for having this client - act like they never had bad clients before.

This story reminds me of client I had whom I did work for, put it up and was ready to submit it - and the client flips. Says that wasn't the way her company does it, speaks or projects itself. Then she proceeded to rewrite all of the copy and work I did.

I and my supervisor both warned her she is completely undoing all SEO by doing that - she didnt care and proceeded.

Now, she's upset at the lack of results and threatening to cancel the website and leave. I just shrug and secretly chuckle. But fortunately for me, this is up for the sales people to deal with...

[Steven1976a]

cryptblade said

"Man - I dont see why there were so many people hard on you (optimalwebsite) for having this client - act like they never had bad clients before."

I dont think anyone is being hard but it is the only sensible way to work for SEO. As someone mentioned a contract does not need to be written up by a lawyer and it doesnt even need to be for money but it should be an outline of the work to be done.

I will do x + x for you = You buy me a beer

Im sure as the project goes on the friend will start enjoying SEO more and more and will start reading more and more into SEO, so inturn he will want more and more. Once the results start climbing up the ladder in the SERPS Im sure he will dream up more and more keywords he wants to be recognised for so the job will get bigger and bigger if there are no boundaries.

Maybe a good starting point would be to let him read this thread

[jawn_tech]

Joel, I totally feel your pain.

Unfortunately, a little bit of what you and everyone else is saying are all true. Whether it's design or SEO, the ones where a contract doesn't seem fitting -- which are typically friends or people you know somehow, are the ones that turn out to be the nightmare clients.

I completely can relate to your experience, which was how this particular project began just by helping out a friend. On one hand, doing work for friends -- even at a reduced rate -- seems like a good idea. Things might feel awkward turning them down, and after all, doing a good job for them might help boost business by getting the word out.

That's the thing that enticed me, in my experience anyways.

Then something happens that they seem to forget that you're doing them a generous favor, and they start to expect the impossible -- and start being impossible themselves.

If they were a stranger, it would be more easy to use a contract and stick to your guns. It's as much their responsibility to understand how things go. Especially if they're a business.

Just like knowing what to expect when you go to the dentist -- you tell them what you want done, let them advise you on what really needs done (and what's possible), choose from what options they give you, then you sit there, let the experts do their work, and pay when it's done.

A rough example, but you get the idea.

[mantawebsolutions]

wanting to "help" a friend with his site is one thing...
wanting to "help" a family member with his site is WORSE!!!

The problem with family and friends are that they think you will do it for free (or next to nothing) and that you're available at all times.

I've done the same and it always comes back to bite you. Nowadays I choose not to help family or friends unless there are specific agreements/contracts in place. The agreement also has to stipulate exactly what is going to be done.

[edhan]

Yes. Everyone does encounter 'bad' clients. Having to serve friends as clients are bad enough. Same goes for me when everything had completed, getting paid for hardware and software is a headache! It took me more than a year to collect back the money after a satisfying job. The rule for me is not to take up job offer by friends. Just limited help is okay.

[mkinzie1]

Originally Posted by optimalwebsite

are you guys telling me THAT NO-ONE ELSE HERE HAS EVER HAD A BAD CLIENT??? One with completely unrealistic expectations, no budget, and then doesn't pay your invoice anyway?

Come on you guys, fess up!

Joel

Yes, I have clients like that, too. I've even gone so far as to ask them why did they hire me in the first place.

I think in the future I will charge them an outlandish "hourly" rate. Then, if they want to change everything I do, who cares.

[NameCritic]

I had one recently. We built a website for him in around 7 days. On the 5th day he wanted to know why his website wasn't indexed in yahoo, google and msn yet.

The website wasn't even built yet. Again, they have no clue.

[wwriches]

File this under No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!

It's funny, when 'friends' find out you work in the computer or web site field they have no qualms about asking you for 'free' help. These same people would never ask their auto mechanic friend for a free oil change. It's unique to this field.

[Feydakin]

It's not entirely unique to this field.. We see it in the jewelry business all the time..

It comes down to people who are actually willing to work for nothing because they think that they need the sale more than the profit.. It's a side effect of this industry being so young compared to others.. You get all these geeks coming out of college (or high school) that know a little about something and decide to go in to business for themselves..

They have no clue how to run or manage a business, but they know that they need clients.. So they do the work for free, on spec, cut rate, just to get started.. But then never get around to charging a fair rate later on since they have conditioned their clients and themselves to believe that they work for free..

[jim-freeman]

Doesn't anyone know how to spell tongue?

[billwhedon]

Originally Posted by jScott_Harris

MarcThai, you'll have to thank the wonderful staff of WebProWorld for that.....without them, I would have no mullet power

Mullet? Scott, we useta call that a "FauxFro" back in the 70s.
LOL
Billiboi The Bald

[leesw]

I've had some clients like that.

One company had been my client for about 3 weeks. They had NO RANKINGS at all for the phrases they wanted. Though, as most of you know, it's rare to see anything that fast, they did. They went to number 8 for their top phrase on Google and 4 on Yahoo--FROM NOWHERE.

So they three-way call me with their webhost who had referred me and ask why they don't rank. I say, well, you do and show them their rankings. They said, "Oh, well we didn't ranked when we last checked." I stuck my tongue to my cheek and told them that, as I originally said, it usually takes months, but they had been fortunate I had made such progress.

So then they said, "Why aren't we number one." At this time the webhost interjected and told them that what I had accomplished was unexpected this quickly and that they should be pleased. So then the guy wants me to tell him how I did it...and teach him SEO right there on the phone.

This just after he was complaining. I told him that I would need to renegotiate if I was expected to teach him SEO and that it had taken me 11 years to learn what I've learned.

He had a really annoying personality anyway. He got mad at me for that and "relieved" me of the contract. Then he wouldn't pay me for the first month. The webhost actually cancelled their account until they paid me. I check on them every now and then and they don't rank for anything anymore. HA HA!

So there's my horror story. I think the moral is, get your money up front and remember that you can't overcome stupidity.

Am I right?

[jawn_tech]

Originally Posted by wwriches

It's funny, when 'friends' find out you work in the computer or web site field they have no qualms about asking you for 'free' help. These same people would never ask their auto mechanic friend for a free oil change. It's unique to this field.

That is so true. It's so true that it's scary.

[Dubbya]

A bad client is usually one that does not fully understand the scope or requirements of the project or the fees involved.

It sounds cold, but having a clearly defined project outline with a detailed contract would have turned this nightmare into a fairly lucrative project and left you and your friend with smiles on your faces.

I love nothing better than to show a client a finished product, get them to sign off on it then draw up a new contract for changes.

Good Stuff!

[sitecreations]

ZERO of my clients realize how much work I do to get them ranked. ZERO of my clients realize how much work I do to optimize and improve their PPC performance.

There is just infinite frustration at the pace of organic SEO among clients... "It shouldn't be so hard." and on the cost of PPC "I refuse to pay $2.00 for a visitor unless I can guarantee they buy something."

The ultimate is when they start to talk about alternative SEO plans right in the "meat" of the program. And sometimes they even HIRE SOMEONE ELSE just as your link equity work kicks in... "See, they are much better at this than you are."

aggghhhh.... must... find.... bourbon.....

I'm desperate for a good agreement/service offering plan that will protect me from this happening, but can never seem to build one.

Bottom line... I love doing this work - but the only time I am able to get through the whole process is when I'm working on my OWN SITES. Otherwise, client impatience kicks in too early.

[jawn_tech]

Sitecreations -- I think you make an enormous, excellent point.

I'm speaking specifically about the part about the timeframe for organic results, when the "link equity kicks in".

Perhaps the timeframe for expected results should be just as prominent as the charges -- what we expect from them, and what they can expect in terms of a timetable.

Though that opens another can of worms, but at least it's safer to promise a broader timeframe and have results happen sooner, than to promise an earlier timeframe and have the results happen later.

[sitecreations]

There's one tiny problem there.

So many of the web shops (who do typewriter repair on the side I think) don't understand this timeline either, and therefore will essentially shut you out of these client deals by setting up unrealistic expectations.

It just blows my mind that it's so hard to sell the concept of long-term split test refinement (PPC) on a calendar with content and link building as a solid and reliable web marketing strategy. There is no shortcut. There is no way to "double up" the process.

<unclenches fist> Did I stay on topic?

[jawn_tech]

Originally Posted by sitecreations

<unclenches fist> Did I stay on topic?

Appears to me you did. It's all good, re: nightmare clients, contracts and such.

Funny you mentioned typewriter repair. I used to work for a shop in high school, but that of course is not on topic...

[NameCritic]

high expectations are due in part to all those "I can get you top 10 listings in google in just 7 days guaranteed" ads they read.

[simonm]

I so agree with the comments posted here. I've had a client for 6 years who has been No1 on google for most of that time for their key service - Asbestos related work - They have stated that they get 60% of all new business through the web site, now they have decided that they don't actually need my services. The last company that dropped me went from 1st to 3rd place for a range of key service keywords, to only being found by their company name. They are all such fools!!!!
SEO is an ongoing effort not a thing to switch on and off - espcially if the business relies on it! And being No1 on Google - for a generic term - is not anybody's by right, it takes enormous effort!

So, when I stop the service and they drop offthe search listings, I hav eno doubt that they will blame me, when all I will do is stop!

Simon

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by simonm

So, when I stop the service and they drop offthe search listings, I hav eno doubt that they will blame me, when all I will do is stop!

You can be sure Simon! LOL