Is this Black Hat SEO???

[Khurram007]

Hi,

I am a developer from an asp based open source portal. I am not a professional SEO but am reading a lot about it and gaining knowledge for quite some time now.

Here is my understanding about SEO and then the problem I am facing and then 2 proposed solutions. I want to know if anyone of them is better and why? Also if any of them could be regarded as Black Hat SEO technique.

My understanding:
According to the tests made, most spiders focus more on the first 25% - 33% html characters of a page. Known experts measure them with KB's says that most known spiders of yahoo, msn and google only focus on a set amount of top and bottom html, measured in KBs. It ranges from 250 KB till 1 MB varying with different spiders.They seems to be ignoring the center content, to rate a page in SEP.

Issue:
The problem I sees with the pages in the portal is that after header, it loads column 1, then column 2 and then column 3. Due to which a spider's most focus remains on the first column most of the time and the content that really matters for the page is in the second column. To remove this hurdle I came out with an idea and have implemented it successfully.

I used two table rows and 3 columns. In the first row, first and third cells are empty and middle 2nd cell contains column 2. In the second row, the first and last cell contains column 1 and column 2 respectively and middle cell is empty.

I verified the html and it shows that the generated html is reading 2nd column before other columns. However, when I talk to chief coder, he told me to implement a check in the code for robots and display only 2nd column omitting 1st and 3rd columns. This is very easy to implement but wouldn't it a Black Hat technique?

Also first & third columns contains many links to internal pages of site which are common on every page. Would it effect the performance of SEO removing them?

Expert adivices needed.

Thanks,

Khurram.

[kgun]

Hi Khurram.

I can not specifically answer your questions, since I think only internal people at the search engine companies can. Though, I can give you a general advice:

1. Google KW searches: "SEO long tail" "Inverted pyramide style".
2. Use some of your time to submit your site to important directories and portals like dmoz and the Yahoo directory.

Use my SEO rule:
Write (dynamic) quality content with simple valid clean code, good headings and write for the web using the inverted pyramide style of writing.

Build a firewall around your site and be patient.

[Khurram007]

Hi Kgun,

You didn't understand probably. I want to ask if I use a check in the code like

If robot then 
      display this 
Else 
      display normal site
End If

would it be legal or not? The code is working perfectly when I used a simulate crawler. My point of view is, it would be illegal in the sense we are deceiving the crawlers. I am expecting advices on it, would it either be legal or illegal? My solution using table and cells comes only if the code check is regarded as illegal.

Khurram.

[kgun]

I can not see any problem in that logical structure. It depends on what you deliver to the Bots.

But there is an important but:
Regarding cloacking, Google has a principle:

You shall present the same content to bots as you present to human beings.

So write for human beings and you write for the bots.

Originally Posted by Khurram007

They seems to be ignoring the center content, to rate a page in SEP.

Earlier it was regarded as good SEO to write content by stuffing the site with Kw's formed like a time glass. I think the bots are more advanced today.

Am I still misunderstanding you?

[krisidious]

I disagree with the assumption that googe is only spidering the top 25% and bottom... heres my reason

I use a form of black hat in keyword over use and link over use...

the reason I do it is for other number one spots... long key word phrases and such, when you search for house plans and find my site you'll see the cashe of my site,

and further more the link descripotion will be that of text excerpted from my page in the middle which on my page is (a massive 106 kb with over 168 links and desciptions...) very far down... and I get many different links in google with entirely different descriptions, far too many to count...

I would venture to say google at least is spidering your whole page, index that is...

[Khurram007]

krisidious, I read an article about a month ago (somewhere I don't remember) where an SEO professional tested this and explained the whole test in detail with each step. He created several pages of several sizes. The result said that yahoo, msn and google are indexing not the whole page. Yahoo and google indexing limit were about 250 KB and 500 KB (not sure which one belongs to which) and msn showed around 1MB of indexing limit.

Now comes to the portal. Kgun, I have searched in google for the portal and it shows most of the results with the contents of the left (1st) column in the description. Like if my top module in left column is a vertical menu, it shows the names of those links. Its bad cauz I know 99 out of 100 people will not click on this link even if its on top of SEP as it doesn't seems relevalent. I am not stuffing the keywords in the center column. There are several types of pages major of which are articles. It really would be unfortunate if some content of the article couldn't be display in the search short description.

Thanks for your kind suggestions. I really appreciate and looking for more.

Thanks,

Khurram.

[Khurram007]

Found that article. Here is the link.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/ind...here-bots-stop

Khurram.

[krisidious]

wow that would surely cap me inside those... I understand what you mean...

but remember the golden rule of Google

Make pages for users, not for search engines. Don't deceive your users or present different content to search engines than you display to users, which is commonly referred to as "cloaking."

Rules of Engagement

you're not trying to hide anything... you're try to show the spider something... the order of which at least... I would think Not Black Hat...

[Khurram007]

There were 2 options for me.

1. Use Code Check for robots. Show them only the center column dropping left and right columns. I am not sure if its legal, but its the recommendation of chief coder who is not an SEO pro.

2. To use the table and cell structure to make the data appear in an more focussed manner. I am sure this is totally legal.

krisidious, your vote is for option 2. Am I right?

Khurram.

[krisidious]

Found that article. Here is the link.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/ind...here-bots-stop

Khurram.

holy crap.... for everyone who didn't read this... do it... for quick indexing on MSN stay under 125kb?

mmmmm I love it when some one gives me pudding with proof in it...

[krisidious]

yes, however I also meant that if the text you were hiding was not spammy I doubt it would hurt you... I have just looked and I don't see anything on google to say you can't do it...

they mainly speak of intent

2 is for sure safer...

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Khurram007

Now comes to the portal. Kgun, I have searched in google for the portal and it shows most of the results with the contents of the left (1st) column in the description. Like if my top module in left column is a vertical menu, it shows the names of those links. Its bad cauz I know 99 out of 100 people will not click on this link even if its on top of SEP as it doesn't seems relevalent. I am not stuffing the keywords in the center column. There are several types of pages major of which are articles. It really would be unfortunate if some content of the article couldn't be display in the search short description.

Look at my first post and the "rule" I gave there.

Second SEO rule:
Do not try to be smart. The Bots may be smarter and they are continually getting smarter and change their bahaviour..

Third SEO rule:
Don't forget the two above rules.

[Khurram007]

Found that article. Here is the link.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/ind...here-bots-stop

Khurram.

Originally Posted by krisidious

holy crap.... for everyone who didn't read this... do it... for quick indexing on MSN stay under 125kb?

mmmmm I love it when some one gives me pudding with proof in it...

Well, I don't believe on an absolutely new things but I have used some SEO softwares and online tools and most of them checks the html size of the page and give a recommendation for it too.

Khurram.

[Khurram007]

ok buddies,

Got your points. Here is the site I am working on http://www.skwebtech.com/

Right now there is no check or table trick. Can you plz look around it a bit and let me know about your views:

1. How does it stands regarding SEO?

2. How do you rate the site speed?

3. Your suggestions plz...

Khurram.

[kgun]

You will generally get much better advice if you submit your site for review in the

Submit your site for for review subforum.

I am in a hurry and have to help my daughter.

[krisidious]

you don't want my advice... I agree with KGUN put it up for review... they're tell you all about how you're mama done you wrong... they'll get you pointed out... and really with the websites content it's self I'm sure you know more than I do...

I was just commenting on the length of the logging by spiders... which I guess I was right about...

[kgun]

I am back and have driven my daughter to a meeting.

While in the car, I thought of the word "time glass" that I thought that was wrong while I wrote it.

The correct word is:

hour glass.

One last remark regarding SEO:
This is i my view an example of bad (black hat) SEO.

"Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram.

Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram".

Don't be surprised if you get a penalty for that. The year is 2006 and not 1996.

[Khurram007]

Originally Posted by kgun

I am back and have driven my daughter to a meeting.

While in the car, I thought of the word "time glass" that I thought that was wrong while I wrote it.

The correct word is:

hour glass.

One last remark regarding SEO:
This is i my view an example of bad (black hat) SEO.

"Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram.

Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram".

Don't be surprised if you get a penalty for that.

Well its not any BlackHat Trick. The profile of a a couple of members is still to be delivered to me so put it that way just to make the layout what it would seem after putting it.

Nicely pointed out. I think I should remove it quickly.

BTW, what about your suggestions regarding page titles and meta tags? And what are you experiencing in regards to speed? I am really curious for others experiences about the later one.

Any other suggestions really welcome and greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Khurram.

[Khurram007]

Sorry bro,

The site is down for some upgradation. If you can wait for just 10 min, I will make it online again. I would really appreciate your kind patience and expert comments.

Thanks,

Khurram.

[kgun]

Write a good title tag describing your business with the name of your site at the right in the title tag. Don't make it to long. Think carefully of what describes your business.

Write a longer description tag that may have some of the same KW's as your title tag. Again, think carefully of what best describes your business.

Use words in the KW tag that describes your business. Don't stuff. Think of what people are seeking for. Ask people how they would search for your products and services.

Repeat the same word on the site that you use in these tags. Repeat them on internal sites, but do not stuff or spam. Write for human beings.

This:
"Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram.

Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram Akram".

is not for people.

This is

"Akram"

and then at least for the advanced bots that bring you traffic.

[Khurram007]

ok removed it.

Can you plz tell me how the website is coming on your screen while browsing with regards to speed.

Khurram.

[kgun]

Khurram,

it could be faster. Takes about 5 seconds to load. It loads faster than a lot of my sites, but that does not mean that your can be better.

This Norwegian site sets a Standard .

That same with WPW's moderator Webnaut's site

Also study how he validates his site. Look in the footer of the front page. That site set a standard on validating and loading. I think you can learn a lot of this review of his site.

Advice:

• Study what has been told you in this thread.
• Study the review of Webnauts site.
• Then change you site to fit these standards.
• Then submit your site for review.
• The more finished it is before you ask for a review, the better advice you can get from other members that are better on this than me.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Khurram007

ok buddies,

Got your points. Here is the site I am working on http://www.skwebtech.com/

Right now there is no check or table trick. Can you plz look around it a bit and let me know about your views:

1. How does it stands regarding SEO?

2. How do you rate the site speed?

3. Your suggestions plz...

Khurram.

On-Site Quality Assurance & SEO

1. Your code is a disaster.
See here: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbos...webtech.com%2F
W3C Validtaor was unable to check your site, as your markup is so bad.

It is so bad that I am almost sure it cannot get indexed, and if it is already, it is spammy!!!

Especially the part at the top of your page must go!!!

<meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-us"></meta>

<title>seo-google-optimization-search-engine-optimization-seo-articles</title>
<meta name="keywords" content="SEO, google, optimization, tips, web development, portal, SEP, SEM, CMS, portal, website, site, intranet, extranet, solution, web solution, website promotion, SE marketing, search engine marketing."></meta>
<meta name="description" content="Web Solutions including Website Design, Dynamic Development, CMS & Customized CMS Solutions,Site Promotion."></meta>

	<META NAME="author" CONTENT="S.M.Khurram"></meta>

<META NAME="reply-to" CONTENT="skqmad@hotmail.com"></meta>

<META NAME="copyright" CONTENT="SK Web Technologies 2007"></meta>

<META NAME="revisit-after" CONTENT="1 Day"></meta>

<META NAME="distribution" CONTENT="Global"></meta>

<META NAME="robots" CONTENT="INDEX,FOLLOW"></meta>

<META NAME="classification" CONTENT="Web Design, Development, SEO, Web Solutions, Web Services, Solutions, Services"></meta>

Here is a free desktop software that can help you out: http://www.htmlvalidator.com/lite/

2. Your important keyword phrase needs to appear in your title tag.
For the best results, your important keyword needs to appear in your title, preferably toward the beginning of the tag. If you don't use your keyword phrase in your title tag, chances are good that your site won't get a top ranking under that keyword phrase.

For case-sensitive engines like AltaVista, search for the phrase in all versions (all caps, capitalized, all lower case) and see if there are differences. If there are, use all versions on your pages if you want to capture traffic through all versions.

3. Your title tag must be the first tag on your page.
Because your title tag is the most important tag on your page, you need to place it at the very top of the "head" section as the first tag on the page.

No other tag should appear before your title tag. If your HTML program sticks in a comment tag or irrelevant META tags before the title tag, delete them!

4. Repetition of words can be considered spamming. You have repeated 2 word(s). [Forums,Forums]
I found repetition of words in the body text. Check your text carefully and make sure that you're not repeating words over and over again, which is considered to be spamming.

5.Redundant Meta Tags
These meta tags are redundant, so get rid of them:
<META NAME="author" CONTENT="S.M.Khurram"></meta>
<META NAME="reply-to" CONTENT="skqmad@hotmail.com"></meta>
<META NAME="copyright" CONTENT="SK Web Technologies 2007"></meta>
<META NAME="revisit-after" CONTENT="1 Day"></meta>
<META NAME="distribution" CONTENT="Global"></meta>

This one also <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-us"></meta>. Instead, add the language in your <html> tag like this: <html lang="en">

6. Some engines can't index URLs containing symbols.
There's a URL somewhere on your page that contains a question mark, which presents problems with getting that particular page spidered and indexed.

The engine will spot the "?" and may stop indexing at that point. If the URL is on your own site, be sure to create content rich information/doorway pages and bring in traffic that way.

7. Place your JavaScripts in a separate file to avoid ranking problems.
Does your Java or other script appear at the top of the page? How long is it? How far down on the page do you have to go before finding the body text? Java and other scripts can present ranking problems, because they push keyword-containing text toward the bottom of the page. Can you move the JavaScript to the bottom of the page or to a separate .js file?

8. Your page keyword density too Low.
In order for your page to score high in the rankings with Google, you'll need to use your keyword phrase in the tags and body text of the page.

Here, your keyword density for the body text is low. Try to have a keyword density for the visible body text of around 2-6%.

So, your BEST bet when considering keyword density is to always see what the keyword weight is for top ranking sites for your keyword phrase in this engine and experiment with your percentages over time.

Remember, however, that keyword weight is just ONE piece of the puzzle, and not the most important piece either.

Links in to your site from sites in your same theme area from sites that have good PageRank are more important for Google than keyword density.

9. Your title tag must be the first tag following the HTML tag.
Because your title tag is the most important tag on your page, you need to place it at the very top of the "head" section, right after the opening HTML tag. No other tag should appear before your title tag.

10. Long page for MSN.
With MSN, shorter pages some times do better, with a body text of less than 300 words and more than 150. You have 524 word(s).

11. Length of title tag for Yahoo directory.
When submitting to Yahoo! directory itself, limit the title you enter on Yahoo!'s submission form to 40 characters, including spaces, instead of 63.

If you use the same title on Yahoo!'s submission form that you've used in the title tag on your page, you need to reduce the number of characters to 40. Remember that the title for Yahoo! *has* to be the name of your company.

12. Download Times

The size of you page is 162016 bytes. [google]Google[/google] suggests to keep pages less than 100000 bytes.

You page connection rate download times are:
14.4K 125.77 seconds
28.8K 62.99 seconds
33.6K 54.02 seconds
56K 32.49 seconds
ISDN 128K 10.09 seconds
T1 1.44Mbps 1.06 seconds

13. Browsers compatibility
Check your browser compatibility with this online tool: http://browsershots.org/

14. Search Engines spiders
See what Search Engines spiders see when visiting your page here: http://www.seo-browser.com/index.php...tion=Parse+URL

Did I forget something? Well if you follow the above instructions, let me know so I might can tell more.

I hope all above helps. :)