"hidden" text without causing SE problem?

[hommealone]

I want to have some text with style="visibility:hidden" in a document, which will initially be invisible, and then be shown - that is to say, changed to "visibility:visible" - when a visitor mouses over an image/javascript-event-trigger.

I'm concerned about how this will be viewed by search engines. I don't want this feature to cause search engines to think that I am spamming them, but I think that they would, especially since the same "hidden" text will be repeated in several places on the page!

Would I avoid the search engine spamming problem if I used a javascript document.write("my hidden/visible words go here") to write the words into the document? Then, in the "hidden" element, there would not be any html text at all, in a sense.

My reasoning is that, if I'm correct, the search engine robots don't "see" or index text that is written into the document via a javascript; if they don't see or index the words, then I couldn't be using those words to spam them. Does that sound right?

(By the way, it is not important that they see those particular words vis-a-vis getting a good page rank for the page. They are really just 4 words that are repeated as a literary/oratorical flourish.)

So, does this sound legit? Will it get me in trouble? I want to take advantage of the hidden/visible style as a design / literary tool, but I don't want to get in trouble with Google et al.

Thoughts, comments, advise?

[Dubbya]

I think you misunderstand the term "hidden text" as it applies to search engines.

If I understand you correctly, what you're doing is changing the visibility of text inside <div> tags and that's not the same thing. Besides, most search engines don't pay attention to CSS styles anyway.

If what you're worried about were in fact an issue, ask yourself how a site like www.w3schools.com gets top ranking in Google. Their entire site is rife with "visibility:hidden" styles.

Hidden text refers to text that is colored the same as the page background, or even microscopic text, which is placed on a page in the expectation that search engines will read the text and give the page more relevance. Not a good idea in this day and age.

Using CSS and/or JavaScript to change the visibility of content between <div></div> tags won't harm your rankings or relevance score, that is to say, as long as the content isn't spamalicious text, totally unrelated to the page/site or simply a list of hyperlinks to link farms.

Go right ahead and use <div> tags with reckless abandon! Just make sure that the content between the tags belongs on your page.

[hommealone]

I thought that search engines don't want to find text that's not "displayed" (readily visible) on the page, since "hidden" text can be a way to cram keywords into the page. Wouldn't "visibility:hidden" be the simplest way to stuff in keywords, and be effective, if that were your intention?

I guess that I'm also worried because some of the "hidden" words are repeated over and over in (12!) different places. Wouldn't that smell like keyword stuffing to you, if you were a search engine?

[Dubbya]

Simple but totally innefective. Unless, by effective, you mean "to get booted out of Google's index".

It depends largely on your intent. If you're hoping to stuff kewords in the hidden layer, you're likely asking for trouble. If, on the other hand, the content is a legitimate page element and reads naturally, I'd say it's a safe bet that you'll be fine.

Dave Taylor wrote an article which answers your question:
Ask Dave Taylor about hidden layers

[hommealone]

So you're saying that "hidden" text may get you kicked off of Google, depending on the text. And I'm saying that the same (hidden) words repeated in 12 different places sounds to me like something the SEs might find suspicious. So I want to try to avoid trouble if I can.

Any thoughts on whether the document.write() method I described above would help? Anyone?

[speed]

I would say if after stripping all style from the page and making everything visible that if the text reads as spam it is spam otherwise go for it.

If you don't want search engines to see that you have hidden text then use JavaScript in onload to change the class, not the style, of the elements that should be hidden.

The chance of a search engine being able to analyse your code must be near zero and there is also the added benefit that users with JS off can see all the text as it defaults to visible, assuming you use JS for the reveal which is a given for IE6.

If you place all you JavaScript in a .js file then there should be no way for the search engines to see the text and index it accidentally or otherwise.

You can even attach the event handlers to reveal the blocks within the .js file rather than using onclick etc within the element tag, there is then no indication that the text is anything but a linear block.

Hiding text is a legitimate way for building CSS only menus and various other effects that can improve the user experience of a site. Search engines can't ban you just for using hidden in the style.

I personally think that providing the style free text is good for humans, remember you are building for humans not machines, you won't go far wrong hiding blocks of it to improve usability.

[stymiee]

Hidden text will only get you banned if you are using it to manipulate the SERPs. Thousands or millions of pages use hidden text in legitimate ways (DHTML) without worry or penalty which is how it should be.

It's not the technique that's gets a site in trouble, it's the intention.

[dharrison]

Hi hommealone

You were saying you want the hidden text to become visible when you hover a mouse over it, so I am assuming that the hidden text is acting as either dynamic navigation or a help box for the navigation.

It would help if you could elaborate further on what you are using the hidden text for before any of us can fully comment.

HTH

[hommealone]

OK. The page is for a socialwork agency (foster care and the like). They have a text which reads: "Every child deserves a <some word>. Every child deserves a <another word>. etc...". The page is designed to show this:

Every Child Deserves a _ _ _ _

When you pass your mouse over the dashed underscore, the word appears, followed by the the next line, so that it becomes:

Every Child Deserves a Chance. Every Child Deserves a _ _ _ _

and then:

Every Child Deserves a Chance. Every Child Deserves a Skill. Every Child Deserves a _ _ _ _

And so on, so that as you pass your mouse over it, you reveal more and more of it. It is styled so that it gives the appearance that it is starting as a rough draft, and that you are composing and typesetting it as you read through it. It functions well and looks good, and I think it makes a powerful and effective presentation of the material.

Since this is a child welfare agency, I'm afraid that having the word "child" - a natural keyword for the site - appear 14 or more times on the page, especially in hidden elements, might trigger a search engine's keyword-stuffing-detector algorithm. I think that's a reasonable worry. In fact, I would hope and expect that that is exactly the kind of thing that the algorithm is designed to detect.

So my first question for anyone is, do you agree that this is a justified concern? Second, if it is a problem, would using a javascript like this:

document.write('Every Child Deserves a ')

instead of putting those words directly into the HTML, help avoid the problem?

Hope this description helps. Any and all thoughts, comments, suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

[Dubbya]

You're going to have to use JavaScript to do that anyway.

Don't worry about it. You're not going to get penalized for this, even if your hidden words are keywords. It doesn't appear that you're keyword stuffing.

[hommealone]

People may disagree on whether or not a SE would find this to be keyword stuffing. One man's contextual words are another man's spam, or should I say one search-engine-algorithm's contextual words...

I'm concerned enough that I'd like to be on the safe side if possible, and do what I can to avoid a problem.

That's why I'd like opinions on whether my document.write('Every Child Deserves a ') method of writing the words into the document would reduce the chance that an SE would interpret the page as cheating.

[Renegade]

Don't worry about it too much. If you've got a legit DHTML application in the page like that you should be fine.

Pages have their own "signature" and there are patterns that recurr in both spam and legit content. Google hires a lot of very smart people to crunch out mathematical algorithms that can identify signatures and the like. If you're on the level, it's unlikely that you'll get penalized. If you do - then somebody at Google has made a mistake in their logic or math. You can email them about reinclusion then.

As for search engines not paying attention to CSS styles - very far from correct. Try some silly 'blackhat' CSS tricks and see what happens.

That being said, certain types of content are more likely to have blackhat tactics used and are also more likely to be checked for that kind of stuff. If you're doing child welfare it's unlikely that you're going to be doing a lot of blackhat stuff. On the other hand, if a site is doing insurance, finance, or some other topics, then it's more likely that the site may be using blackhat SEO and it is then more likely to be scrutinized for it.

e.g. Site A & B both use the same blackhat tactics. Site A is about some non-commercial topic and won't ever make any money. Site B is all about affilate programs and serving up contextual ads for high-bid keywords. B gets caught and A doesn't. Or at least B gets caught well before A gets caught.

[cvos]

if you set visibility to none for whole blocks of text there could be problems. not for a few words.


search engines understand there are many legitimate reasons to not display text and this is one. Always examine the intent of your changes and ask if you are doing it to try to spam the spiders or make the site better for users. The latter will do you right every time.

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by Dubbya

You're going to have to use JavaScript to do that anyway.

Don't worry about it. You're not going to get penalized for this, even if your hidden words are keywords. It doesn't appear that you're keyword stuffing.

I agree.

[garywhw]

Focus your work on humans and do it on the basis as if search engines do not exist. Google claimed that you would no way be penalized for doing so. Enjoy.

[edhan]

Originally Posted by hommealone

OK. The page is for a socialwork agency (foster care and the like). They have a text which reads: "Every child deserves a <some word>. Every child deserves a <another word>. etc...". The page is designed to show this:

This should not be a problem as it does not classified under hidden text. Hidden texts are normally keyword stuffing to 'cheat' search engines and that does get the site banned.

Btw, your method seems to be good for teaching!

[wige]

If you are worried about Google taking it wrong - and no one can really say how Googlebot might interpret your intent with the hidden text - might it be safer to mark the text with visibility:visible, and have a body onload javascript that as soon as the page is loaded switches the text to invisible? This gives the added advantage that users without javascript enabled, or using cell phones, etc. will still be able to see the text, and the search engine won't see anything as being hidden.

[richmar]

I am testing another type of scenario, which involves adding text into a <div> element. The text is visible; it is not labeled "hidden" in the CSS. But we are testing placing a flash movie over the text in the same <div> element. So a person who does not enable flash, sees the text. If flash is enabled, he gets the movie. The content would be identical to that found in the flash movie.

Any thoughts on this technique?

Richmar

[AlexPhD]

Just wanted to add my 2cents.

People are affraid of hidden text for no reason. In most cases search engine companies do not weed out sites automatically. You have to be a real spammer! Most of techniques to hide text are too expensive in terms of computing power for SE to tackle. It's simply not practical.

http://www.detect-hidden-text.com

and these pages have plenty of hidden text and no penalty!

http://www.detect-hidden-text.com/so..._generated.htm

Alex

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by AlexPhD

Just wanted to add my 2cents.

People are affraid of hidden text for no reason. In most cases search engine companies do not weed out sites automatically. You have to be a real spammer! Most of techniques to hide text are too expensive in terms of computing power for SE to tackle. It's simply not practical.

http://www.detect-hidden-text.com

and these pages have plenty of hidden text and no penalty!

http://www.detect-hidden-text.com/so..._generated.htm

Alex

My experience is that if a site is using hidden text and that´s why it ranks high, a spam report at google will take that result out of the serp within days.

I´m not policing the web but when I am optimizing for a phrase and I find sites that rank unfairly, I report them and generally they´re out within days. I would never recommend using hidden text.