Repetition relevance?

[begabloomers]

Just a question,

I have avoided using extensive lists of countries i will post/ship to because I thought they may be treated like spam by SEs , especially if I put the same message on every page.

Looking through my dazzling SE results ( Not ! ) I rank very highly for non sales converting searches like "US mens shirts size to Russian shirts size" etc. however, on one page I did include a list of countries we will we will ship to ... and found that this got me listed on a page one search in google.co.uk for a search for "children's shower caps uk".

Is it a bad idea to include this shipping list on every page? The "spam" threat with keywords and phrases has me baffled - what is optimization and what is over optimization (spamming)?

Susan

[Irishjim]

This is such a great question, Susan, and I suspect you'll get as many different answers as you do responses. We're all working in the dark here to root this out.

Here's my recent experience. Last month we took www.tourclare.com from being a strictly Irish site (mainly catering to the Irish) to one with information on all hotels and holiday homes in Europe.

Thinking it a good idea to have all the countries with a text-anchored link from all the pages, we set about doing this.

Nothing happened with Google. Since we have developed a trust relationship with them over the past five years, I was surprised at the snub but quickly realized our error.

We took off the duplicate links and now find our new pages are appearing in the top 10 or 20 within a few days. Unfortunately, the older pages are not doing so well but we figure they will hobble back into view soon.

Keep in mind, this is with keyword phrases like "hotels in burgundy" getting on the first page within three days.

Lest you think this might apply to only new pages, we also made a bit of a goof last month by adding information on golf courses to our villages in Ireland where the golf clubs were.

These villages began falling by the wayside almost immediately... some dropping from a #1 spot.

We quickly corrected this and were given the good blessing by Google again.

So there's our experience, Susan, for what it's worth.

[jawn_tech]

I think you have nothing to worry about as far as the duplicate content concern. Nor do I see it as a keyword spamming issue.

As far as duplicate content, Google can be more liberal on this issue than many people think. Many sites have recurring content on each page. The first that comes to mind are the navigation links themselves, and other layout features that keep a site consistent. Also some information sites have a disclaimer posted somewhere on every page. Then there are articles or reviews that are sent out and published on many websites, and each of them seem to have a place in the search engines.

Taking a specific quote from what Google has to say,

Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content.

The keyword there is "substantial". They're looking for mirrored pages and their crawlers have a good set of parameters to gauge the difference.

Keyword spamming is a different issue. Mentioning a set of countries on each page wouldn't fall under that. Using the same keyword a zillion times on the same page is a different story.

Good luck!

[Irishjim]

I'll have to argue the point with jawn... our experience shows us it is dicey.

We'll all read what you say a thousand times, lad, but Google's actions speak so loudly I can't hear a word they say, to quote Emmerson.

Again. I say go with caution. We will.

[sweimh]

If you are really worried, you also have the option of having those repeating shipping/availability text on an image file.

[Purple13]

Hi.

Here at Purple 13 (http://www.purple13.co.uk) , the Artist posed me with a very similar question.

In this case, it referred to the repetitive nature of her 'price tables' accompanying each individual artwork page, as the only difference is the artwork reference number, with descriptions and costs remaining the same.

A previous article i'd read talked about trust. If Google trusts your site to be delivering relevant information to your visitors, then it will allow it rather than penalise you for it.

If you think the information is valid and helpful to visitors, then leave well alone. Of course, it may be smarter to have the information on a single page. Particularly so if you ever have to amend it.

Purple 13 Web Team

[craigmn3]

The Simplest solution is to turn your shipping information into a graphic.
Step By Step

Open MS Paint
Use the text tool to write your information in the size,shape and color you want.
Save the graphic.

post the graphic on your website

The spiders should treat it just like trademarking but if your concerned simply rename the graphic for each page. The user gets the information....the spider doesn't sniff spam

[jawn_tech]

To agree with Irishjim, going with caution is a wise statement, in anything.

Having looked at the first site in the poster's sig, and seeing the list of countries mentioned, it still strikes me as being negligible in any filter. That's based on my own experiences and observations as well.

To break it down, from what I see the content in question is,

We ship to the following countries : Australia,NZ ( New Zealand), India, Japan, US (United States), Canada, UK,EU including Germany, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, Spain, Austria, Iceland, Greece, Poland, Russia,
Not on the list? Please email us.

I could find a dozen sites doing well in search engines with the same amount of content in the footer of each page. Especially when it plays such a minor part compared to the amount of content on the rest of the page(s).

There are always exceptions to any rule, especially when we don't know the exact gauge to the rule.

[bathrobe]

Since we have developed a trust relationship with them over the past five years, I was surprised at the snub but quickly realized our error.

I was rather surprised at this statement. I was under the impression that no one had a "relationship" with Google. There are far too many sites on the Internet for them to have individual "relationships of trusts" with. It all boils down to whether their algorithm likes you or not.

For many years I did well with Google (I started in 2000). In recent years they haven't been so kind. I don't think it's anything personal. My belief is that at a certain stage Google started to get clogged arteries. Old stuff is in there that should have got flushed out long ago, and new stuff sometimes has difficulties getting in (a generalisation, but that has been my experience).

[Irishjim]

Well, Bathrobe, it just goes to show you none of us can can know everything.

In fact Google does develop relationships of trust with large sites that have behaved themselves over time.

You don't have to believe it to make it so, you know.

[bathrobe]

I'm just interested in why you say you have a "relationship of trust" with Google. Have you had any feedback from Google that tells you that you have a "relationship" with them?

I have a site, moderately large, that has been going for 6 years. It has been a well-behaved site. In fact, it isn't a commercial site at all. I've never had any feedback from Google to say that my site is good or bad, well-behaved or spammy, or anything else. So it's hard for me to say what they think of me.

They do give me good rankings on certain keywords and that hasn't changed at all. But I have had problems (which I've raised elsewhere) and I don't believe those problems have anything to do with my relationship with them. I think it more likely they are due to other factors.

Still, I'm very interested in what you say. You could be right, and it would be very interesting if Google is watching over us in the somewhat personalised sense that you suggest.

[Irishjim]

I'm absolutely positive this is the case, Bathrobe, but I really can't talk about it.

One thing for certain is Google likes to hang on to their invisible cloak... as threadbare as it may be.

[edhan]

Originally Posted by begabloomers

I have avoided using extensive lists of countries i will post/ship to because I thought they may be treated like spam by SEs , especially if I put the same message on every page.
Susan

Looking at your site with the list of countries at the bottom of the page, I do think that it should not be a problem as it is like a part of navigation where you need to let visitors know about. I may be wrong about this though I have done that myself with left and right column of my site.

[jawn_tech]

Ebay does it as well, a list of countries. Those are links to the ebay site of that country.

Not sure what eBay's "relationship" is with Google. But they certainly do well in the SE's.

On a side note, about the relationship thing, the only relationship I've heard of that exists is when a large site is invited to participate in a beta version of Adsense, where they open in new windows and don't have the text "Ads by Google". About.com is one example.

I couldn't imagine a type of relationship that would reward sites in organic listings any differently than other sites that pass the scrutiny of the algorithm. Even large-budget Adwords customers don't catch a break, as far as favortism goes. (Nor should they...)

Just to tie everything together, it all boils down to the algo, in which I think having a list of countries to ship to on each page is perfectly safe.

[Serrbiz]

First, if you suspect it's spam, it probably is. Google will likely see it the same.

Now, if you want to utilize the various countries you ship to for their keywords and seo, we would suggest that you make a "Shipping Glossary" of each country you ship to, and give example rates based on weight and shipper.

Then, link all of your products to the index page of this shipping glossary.

This should be OK with G, as you will be providing valid content that is UNIQUE and useful to your clients. Of course, on these pages, you might want to have 4 or 5 "featured" products and your global navigation of course.

If need more help, feel free to contact us.

[noel_x99]

Many of our clients are local businesses looking for local customers. We've found that listing local geographic names is very beneficial for them. It hasn't hurt their rankings in Google or Yahoo - and it really helps when someone is searching with geographic terms.

We don't necessary make these links - it's a short paragraph listing names. It's quite often duplicated on a number of pages throughout the site. We haven't seen any issues with duplicate content - because the rest of the page is unique.

[jawn_tech]

Many of our clients are local businesses looking for local customers. We've found that listing local geographic names is very beneficial for them. It hasn't hurt their rankings in Google or Yahoo - and it really helps when someone is searching with geographic terms.

We don't necessary make these links - it's a short paragraph listing names. It's quite often duplicated on a number of pages throughout the site. We haven't seen any issues with duplicate content - because the rest of the page is unique.

Exactly.

Finally, the sky isn't falling!

[Irishjim]

Originally Posted by jawn_tech

Finally, the sky isn't falling!

In your quest to hold on to an untenable position, Jawn, you seem to be grasping for any support you can find.

The fact remains, Google will spank you if you have too much redundancy in your pages and I feel it is inadvisable for you to encourage others to toss caution to the ethernet the way you have.

There have been some excellent suggestions here, such as the image files replacing text (I'm surprised swf files weren't mentioned but maybe I missed them in the fray).

I think the question has been sufficiently answered (don't you?) and the tangental argument over how much repetitive information should be on multiple pages will have to be left to the individual webmaster or SEO to decide.

But when the lads come back with blood on their hands, I don't want anyone to think I would ever encourage such folly.

[aaron2005]

I believe showing up successfully in search engines by using lists will work in low competition areas though in general, anything duplicate has a short lifespan when it comes to ranking.

Also outside of the US search engines have not clamped down but this can sometimes be confused with low competition, short lived success.

I design my sites (well blog CMS sites really) to be search engine compliant, they often do better in the long run because they have never had any negative ranking points for questionable webmaster activity.

[jawn_tech]

In your quest to hold on to an untenable position, Jawn, you seem to be grasping for any support you can find...I think the question has been sufficiently answered (don't you?)

Well Irishjim, in my opinion it was answered. But that's my opinion and you have yours. No need for going over the top, or steering the thread away and going personal. Let's be fair and reasonable here, no one is suggesting not to use caution. No one disputes that Google filters for too much duplicate content. This post is about whether what they are using is "too much", or reasonable.

Feel free to post opinions and viewpoints even if they differ from others. Weigh everything accordingly, especially when specific and similar examples are brought up.

And with that, after having the last word, I hereby lock this thread.

Just kidding. ;)

[Irishjim]

Fair play to ye, Jawn.

[Peter (IMC)]

Looking through my dazzling SE results ( Not ! ) I rank very highly for non sales converting searches like "US mens shirts size to Russian shirts size" etc. however, on one page I did include a list of countries we will we will ship to ... and found that this got me listed on a page one search in google.co.uk for a search for "children's shower caps uk".

That´s a reasonable logical thing to happen with phrases that are not likely to be the only subject of a single page. You´re ranking good simply because your page is the only page in the whole internet that has the combination of "children shower cap" and "uk" in the text of the page or in links pointing at the page. (search for allintext:"children's shower cap" uk)

So that explains why you rank good. Now your question about adding a list of countries to all pages... Why all pages? I understand why, that means having to add the list only once to your template.. :) But most likely only in the product pages it makes sense to say that you ship to all those countries.

a list of countries on it self isn't a problem I think, as long as it doesn't take over the page content. Meaning that if you have copy of like 50 to 100 words and the country list results in 200 words, you might loose the focus of the page.

[begabloomers]

Thnaks everyone,

and Peter , yes that is exactly the the point i was making - that it was a very obscure search term and my page happened to have the only combination of words that actually matched. I am not bragging about a great result ( because it isn't ) merley stating that apart from one keyword phrase I am aiming for - again in a low competition area - I am only getting found by people using very esoteric search terms.

Nevertheless, without the shipping list on that page , even that search would not have been a match.

In the long run I think I will update the shipping page and leave the shipping & currency information on the index page and shipping page only.

Thanks for the image clue . I may use it. I am still thinking, i have been tinkering to fine tune, but have seen results jump around a bit.

As a rule of thimb though, I like the advice that if it feels spammy it probably is.

Irish Jim, I has a similar effect to your golf courses additions ( if I understand correctly ), by adding home decor trends to the woolen blankets page the search position dropped. I thought more information , especially since I related the trends to specific colors & styles available would help. But ( observation only )it altered the message or theme of the page. It was rewarded with a negative response.

Can I have a translation of your tag? the only Gaelic I know is pogue mahone ! LOL I stayed in County Clare in 1968 when everyone still drove around in donkey carts!

[Irishjim]

Glad we could help, Bloomer, and to update you, by removing all the countries in Europe from our county pages, we have again been blessed with good search results.

A Google search of "hotels in (county)" now places us on the first page of 26 of the 32 counties in Ireland again. It's quite a relief.

Slan means goodbye in Irish. (We don't call it Gaelic here unless we're talking about football... just to let you know and it's a common thing for non-Irish to do so no harm.)

There are a lot of things you can add to Slan. I use "go foill" here because it means "goodbye for now." With friends, I usually use Slan Tamall which means "Goodbye until later."

A simple Slan works but the translation is a bit abrupt when translated.

I used to sign my emails with an Irish expression that translates into, "Don't bruise your knee on a barstool that's not in your way" but tired of having to explain it to lads who didn't know me and my sense of humour well.

[jawn_tech]

If you do decide to use images begabloomers, don't forget to use alt tags for accessibility reasons.

Of course you probably would anyway, just a rhetorical statement like "drive carefully" or "stay warm, it's cold out..."

[Irishjim]

Just had to get the last word in, eh, Jawn?

[jawn_tech]

Word.

[jawn_tech]

A new question was asked by jordanmcclements, and it seemed to deserve its own thread. Sort of along these lines, but dealing with repeating pages of different sized images.

If anyone wants to chime in, that thread is here.