Keywords: comma or spaces

[jaca]

I was reading "Site Pro News" this morning. They were listing 10 hints to make your web site better. One of the things stated was:

'Separate your keywords with spaces (not commas). This allows the Search Engines to combine your keywords into phrases, for people who do 'phrase searching'

It was my understanding that keywords HAD to be seperated by a comma. Does anyone know for sure?

[Mel]

Hi Jan;

There are differing opinions of course, but I think most everyone agrees that Inktomi is one of the few major search engines that uses the keywords tag in its rankings. From Inktomi's spam policy FAQ, this is what Inktomi says about the meta keywords tag:

Q: What's best to do with the Keywords meta-tag?
A: This line is not as important as is commonly believed. Put phrases that relate to this page in the Keywords line, separated by commas. Don't bother including very common phrases, such as "expert" or "rock and roll". The Keywords line should always be tailored for the particular page; if it's the same for every page on your site, you are really better off not using the Keywords line at all. Don't overload the Keywords line; as a rule of thumb, if you're putting things in the Keywords line that aren't in the rest of the page, you're probably putting too much in.

[jaca]

Thank you for the information Mel.

Does Google want a comma and not a space as well? I am just wondering why this publication would advise this. They said that if there was no comma it would read the whole thing for key phrases.

[Mel]

Well.....

I really don't think google cares much what you do with the keywords tag, but there are those who differ.

Since ideally all the search engines will read all your pages I would suggest that you follow the guidelines Inktomi provided.

You can still use phrases with commas between them.

[minstrel]

I agree, Mel...

This is the second time in a row... we've got to stop meeting like this...

* W3C gives an example of the keywords meta tag which uses commas
* also see keywords, commas, spaces

[cyanide]

Originally Posted by jaca

Thank you for the information Mel.

Does Google want a comma and not a space as well? I am just wondering why this publication would advise this. They said that if there was no comma it would read the whole thing for key phrases.

Hi jaca,

As far as google goes, don't worry about the meta keywords, the googlebot ignores this tag.

As far as Site Pro News, I occasionally read their articles as well, and find quite often the information is either out-dated or the so-called experts, are not so expert.

[janeth]

cyanide wrote
Hi jaca,

As far as google goes, don't worry about the meta keywords, the googlebot ignores this tag.

Janeth wrote
Cyanide can you show me proof that Google ignores meta tags?

I would not ignore the meta tags. There are more search engines then just Google and I have not seen where Google says they ignore them.

I also feel like Google does not ignore the description tag since I played around with it and got ranked for a crazy word there.

[janeth]

Thanks Mel I just got this from his post this is from

http://www.inktomi.com/products/web_...policyfaq.html

Q: What's best to put in Title and Description?
A: The Title and Description meta-tags are what people look at to decide whether to click on a search result. A common mistake is loading the Title and Description full of keywords; while this may help slightly with ranking, it makes the search listing visually unappealing to the user, which means they don't click on it. What good is being #1 if nobody clicks? It's clever to put relevant search terms in, but focus on making it appealing to the user. We also recommend writing a unique Title and Description for each page.

Q: What's best to do with the Keywords meta-tag?
A: This line is not as important as is commonly believed. Put phrases that relate to this page in the Keywords line, separated by commas. Don't bother including very common phrases, such as "expert" or "rock and roll". The Keywords line should always be tailored for the particular page; if it's the same for every page on your site, you are really better off not using the Keywords line at all. Don't overload the Keywords line; as a rule of thumb, if you're putting things in the Keywords line that aren't in the rest of the page, you're probably putting too much in.

[cyanide]

Hi Janeth,

Sure, have a look at the source code
http://www.sudburygourmet.ca/
no meta tags, a pr5 and plenty of hits from google, yahoo, aol and msn

[snair007in]

Hi All,

With my experience, in SEO, I believe Meta Tags, Title, Description, Page copy.. all have their own importance.

I use a technique as follows. I take 3 main keywords. I include these 3 phrases in Title, Decription, Keywords and Page copy. These 3 will be the first words in the these tags.

I have been trying this technique for many sites, and i get wonderful results.

Regards

[janeth]

Hi cyanide,

Meta tags is one part of on site optimization there are over 100 things that Google looks at. Picking one site and saying look they rank good and do not have meta tags is like saying you can drive a car all week on one tank of gas.

Every car and every situation is different. You said meta tags where not needed when in fact I showed you two search engines they use them and you have shown no proof that Google does not use them.

If your going to make a statement like do not use meta tags when you use them on your on site and people like Bruce Clay still uses them on his site I would like to see where you got the information from.

[janeth]

Cyanide wrote
Sure, have a look at the source code
http://www.sudburygourmet.ca/
no meta tags, a pr5 and plenty of hits from google, yahoo, aol and msn

Also cyanide the example you showed for which key words is he ranked? It looked like to me he wanted "Gourmet on the Go" which would not have been a good one but it is hard to tell and he was not in the top 20 for that key word.

You can get good hits from all the search engines with no meta tags or links and a pr0 site you just have to buy the hits.

So to say he gets good hits with no meta tags tells us very little.

[Mel]

Sorry to be a nitpicker but the statement that Googlebot ignores the meta keywords tag a few posts back which is not correct. Googlebot reads and sends to the index everything you put on your page, visible and invisible, its all there (so long as it doesn't exceed about 101 kbytes), If you doubt that look at the source code of any page which Google has cached and you will see everything is recorded just as you wrote it.

Now, as to how Google uses that data in its ranking of the page is another story.

[janeth]

Yes very, very, good point Mel I never thought about that before but you are right.

[PhilC]

Janeth wrote:
Cyanide can you show me proof that Google ignores meta tags?

Cyanide wrote:
Sure, have a look at the source code
http://www.sudburygourmet.ca/
no meta tags, a pr5 and plenty of hits from google, yahoo, aol and msn

No Cyanide. Janeth asked if you could show proof. What you've shown isn't even evidence. It may be difficult to show actual proof, but some real evidence wouldn't go astray.

Do a search on Google for 'seo forum', and look at the Critical Error listing at #8. Modesty prevents me from mentioning the #1 (occassionally #2) ranked forum ;)

If you look at the cache's source and skip Google's top part, you'll see that the #8 ranked page doesn't even have a Title tag - it goes straight from the HTML tag to the BODY tag. Is that proof that Google doesn't take Title tags into account? Of course not.

[janeth]

I would just like to point out one other thing. I do not know if Cyanide knows for sure that site is even getting a lot of hits.

But either way there is a big difference between hits and traffic.

Cyanide wrote:
Sure, have a look at the source code
http://www.sudburygourmet.ca/
no meta tags, a pr5 and plenty of hits from google, yahoo, aol and msn

[bob_99]

For those who want META keyword tags in their pages I have written this tool:

http://www.searchenginepromotionhelp...ywordProcessor

This will analyze your page for keyword density & allow you to select phrases to use in your META keyword tag.

I wrote this tool because I think that META keyword tags are important because they are used by Inktomi.

A good listing of which engines use which tags is available at:

http://www.searchenginewatch.com/web...le.php/2167891

I hope this helps,

Bob

[minstrel]

Thanks, Bob:

I was looking for that article a week or so ago and couldn't find it - this time I bookmarked it :o)

[cyanide]

hmmm, forgot about this thread...

Originally Posted by Janeth

I would not ignore the meta tags. There are more search engines then just Google and I have not seen where Google says they ignore them.

I never said meta tags. and I never mentioned other search engines. Click the link bob_99 has posted

Originally Posted by Janeth

I also feel like Google does not ignore the description tag since I played around with it and got ranked for a crazy word there.

I never mentioned description tag

Originally Posted by janeth

Hi cyanide,

Meta tags is one part of on site optimization there are over 100 things that Google looks at.

Yes, Janeth, I am well aware - but, thanks for the reminder

Originally Posted by janeth

Picking one site and saying look they rank good and do not have meta tags is like saying you can drive a car all week on one tank of gas.

Your car / gas analogy is pretty useless and doesn't make any sense. If anything, the question is how far you are driving? The fact of the matter is, this particular person is a local business looking for local clientele.

Originally Posted by Janeth

Every car and every situation is different. You said meta tags where not needed when in fact I showed you two search engines they use them and you have shown no proof that Google does not use them.

Yes, every situation is different, I agree, which is very compelling you would mention that, given that you are also generalizing and comparing my client's site's needs to yours and every other website that exists. And by the way, I wasn't talking about other search engines. If you are trying to re-inforce your position and beliefs, let's atleast stay on subject.

Originally Posted by Janeth

If your going to make a statement like do not use meta tags when you use them on your on site and people like Bruce Clay still uses them on his site I would like to see where you got the information from.

Well, if you read what I said carefully, I didn't say do not use meta tags!! In fact, I don't think I've ever said that.

Originally Posted by Janeth

I would not ignore the meta tags. There are more search engines then just Google and I have not seen where Google says they ignore them.

Again, I never said other search engines, and I never said Ignore them, I said Google ignores them. Please read my words carefully.

Originally Posted by Janeth

Also cyanide the example you showed for which key words is he ranked? It looked like to me he wanted "Gourmet on the Go" which would not have been a good one but it is hard to tell and he was not in the top 20 for that key word.

Uhhh, Gourmet on the Go happens to be his company name and since the domain name wasn't available ....? enough said.
And yes, the rank dropped along with many others with Google's latest shuffle.

Originally Posted by Janeth

You can get good hits from all the search engines with no meta tags or links and a pr0 site you just have to buy the hits.

What are you trying to say, Janeth?
I've never had to buy hits, but if that's what you have to do, then go right ahead

Originally Posted by Janeth

So to say he gets good hits with no meta tags tells us very little.

? ? ?
What do you expect me to tell you ?
Do you expect me to open up my client's private information, just to make your life easier? Do you compromise your clients sensitive information like that?

Originally Posted by Janeth

I would just like to point out one other thing. I do not know if Cyanide knows for sure that site is even getting a lot of hits.

ooooo...kay ?!?!?!
How exactly are you pointing this out ? What are you pointing out ?
Let's see ...You said ... you don't know ... if I know ... if the site is getting hits?
Oh, for crying out loud, Janeth. What is the point?

Originally Posted by Janeth

But either way there is a big difference between hits and traffic.

Yes, Janeth..... hits, traffic, page views, visitors, unique visitors...... they all mean different things.

No Cyanide. Janeth asked if you could show proof. What you've shown isn't even evidence. It may be difficult to show actual proof, but some real evidence wouldn't go astray.

True enough, there's no clear way to prove this. However, through my research and testing, I haven't seen any clear benefit of using meta keywords for Google.
I will re-iterate again, I never said to not use meta keywords. And, yes some search engines still use them.

Sorry to be a nitpicker but the statement that Googlebot ignores the meta keywords tag a few posts back which is not correct. Googlebot reads and sends to the index everything you put on your page, visible and invisible, its all there (so long as it doesn't exceed about 101 kbytes), If you doubt that look at the source code of any page which Google has cached and you will see everything is recorded just as you wrote it.

Well, yes... in order for Google to cache a page, it will have to collect everything on the page.

Now, as to how Google uses that data in its ranking of the page is another story.

Exactly ! Plenty of theories. Most are founded, some are not.

Here's the bottom line:
As a business servicing other businesses, I do my very best to ensure client's are gstting the most bang from their buck. Janeth always mentions that there are 1000's of search engines. Regardless of how true this statement is, one thing is pretty clear. Most are pretty insignificant.
In our neck of the woods, here are 6 of the major engines:
Google
Yahoo (powered by google)
Aol (powered by google)
Sympatico (powered by google)
msn
Altavista
Most visits stem from these engines. When we launch a new site, these are the top engines that are optimized for and submitted to as well as directories. Now... you may feel the need to submit and optimize for the other 954 search engines, but I would feel pretty guilty taking my clients' money in return for maybe... a couple of visitors.

Further...
This person services locally in a city of less than 100,000. For me to think he will or should, receive 1000's of visitors a month would be foolish at best. At 200 - 500 visitors / month, it is more than adequate.
The fact he has received inquiries from as far as Western Canada, South-Western US and even Australia is a bonus. But, for me to even consider optimizing for these areas, is simply a waste of time.
This is called targetting

In fact, this particular client receives 90% of all inquiries and clients throught the website and over 50% of those are from search engines.
He is fully booked and has even begun a waiting list.

At the end of the day, it is not about sheer numbers, but about end-results.
And that, is the bottom line

[janeth]

Cyanide this is your customer?

Since there is only like 1,000 web sites trying for the word "Gourmet on the Go" What do you think the problem is that you can not get ranked for that key word?

Aslo where you ranked for it last month and if so what do you think changed?

[janeth]

Since we are talking about Google here is what Mel said and it is a good point


Sorry to be a nitpicker but the statement that Googlebot ignores the meta keywords tag a few posts back which is not correct. Googlebot reads and sends to the index everything you put on your page, visible and invisible, its all there (so long as it doesn't exceed about 101 kbytes), If you doubt that look at the source code of any page which Google has cached and you will see everything is recorded just as you wrote it.

[Mac 5]

How about repeating words in the keyword metatag. If you list a keyword several times each a little different: maple tree, mapletree, maple trees, maples, maple surup, maple leaf, leaf, maple tree leaf,

Is this considered spamming? In the above example if "maple" was listed more than 3 times, even in different phrases is that spamming? Does the comma make any difference in how the search engines put the words together as phrases. Should you just list each word once and let the engine put the phrases together.
Keyword metatag: maple, tree, trees, leaf, leafs, surup

Should you list each keyword with every suffix possiblility that makes sense: ed, ing, s, er,

[minstrel]

Originally Posted by Mac 5

How about repeating words in the keyword metatag. If you list a keyword several times each a little different: maple tree, mapletree, maple trees, maples, maple surup, maple leaf, leaf, maple tree leaf, Is this considered spamming? In the above example if "maple" was listed more than 3 times, even in different phrases is that spamming?

no, if you do it within reason...

Does the comma make any difference in how the search engines put the words together as phrases. Should you just list each word once and let the engine put the phrases together.

In my opinion, the first is true. I recently saw another article claiming the second but I don't believe it.

Should you list each keyword with every suffix possiblility that makes sense: ed, ing, s, er,

That's probably overdoing it...

[bob_99]

I've done some research on the META keyword tag format.

Here is the original W3C specification for META tags:

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html

This document is ambiguous, it gives an example with only 1 keyword.(!!) It doesn't address the issue of multiple values for a given tag.

Inktomi says the phrases should be separated by commas but doesn't mention spaces:

http://www.inktomi.com/products/web_...policyfaq.html


Here is my _opinion_ on how the search engines parse a keyword tag, this is the approach I would use as an experienced programmer:


Keyword phrases should be separated by commas because my code is going to split that tag on the commas & put the phrases in an array. If you have 20 words with no commas, my code will treat that as 1 phrase 20 words long. My code will not process all permutations of those words into phrases.


My code doesn't care about spaces before/after commas, I'm using the TRIM function to strip leading and tailing white space.

FORMAT CONCLUSION: Don't sweat spaces, use commas to form phrases.

As far as the number of times to repeat words, that's up the designers of each engines algorithms. The Inktomi page referenced above has some good info on this point.

I hope this helps,

Bob

[minstrel]

See the example on this page:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html

Provide keywords and descriptions

Some indexing engines look for META elements that define a comma-separated list of keywords/phrases, or that give a short description. Search engines may present these keywords as the result of a search. The value of the name attribute sought by a search engine is not defined by this specification. Consider these examples,

<META name="keywords" content="vacation,Greece,sunshine">
<META name="description" content="Idyllic European vacations">

[bob_99]

David,

That's an excellent find, thanks.

Bob

Originally Posted by minstrel

See the example on this page:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html