Linking Campaigns Lead to Increased Online Visibility

bhartzer · #1 (**permalink**) 04-28-2006, 05:26 PM

A linking campaign is a necessary step in the overall success of your website. You can put up a website, have great web design, and have great content; but without other websites linking to your website no one will know about it. Furthermore, the search engines rely on links in order to find new websites and new web pages. A proper linking campaign will not only increase your website’s online visibility and traffic, it will allow the search engines to find your site and help your website get indexed.

Back in the early 1990s, when there were no search engines (way before Google even existed), we “surfed” the web. We relied on other websites that had “link lists” that pointed to other websites that were “worthy enough” of being linked-to or were simply recommended. When we “surfed” the web we went from one website to another to another based on links. And if you had a good website you could typically get links from other websites that would ultimately bring you more “hits”.

Great Content
Your website’s content is ultimately responsible for it ability or inability to get links from other websites. If your website has no content or has bad content then there’s not much of a chance that someone who owns another website will link to your website. If you have great content on your website then you have the potential to get links from other websites—you just have to tell everyone that your website exists so they’ll take a look at it and hopefully link to it or recommend it to others.

What is great content? In my opinion, great content is anything that people will link to with what I call an “unsolicited link”. An “unsolicited link” is when someone recommends your website or its content by writing an article about it, mentioning it in their blog, or just adding a link to your website without you having to ask them for the link. For example, many of the outgoing links (links to external websites) that are in the Wikipedia online encyclopedia (http://wikipedia.org/) are unsolicited links—people have created entries about certain subjects. To provide others with additional information about that subject Wikipedia entries typically include what they call “external links” at the bottom of certain entries. Hydroseeding is one example in particular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroseeding). “Hydroseeding (or hydromulching) is a planting process which utilizes a slurry of seed and mulch”, planting process for establishing new grass where they “spray” a slurry of seed and mulch onto the dirt. In this Wikipedia entry, they include external links to TurfMaker’s lengthy description of the process. TurfMaker, a manufacturer of hydroseeders, has included a lot of great information on their website about the process which is great “link bait”. A Wikipedia link is a very valuable thing to have, as it’s a human-edited unbiased source of content. Link bait is essentially something that will entice someone to link to your website without you having to ask for it—link bait will help you catch unsolicited links. TurfMaker’s definition of the process, included on their website, is great content and great link bait.

Additional examples if great content or “link bait” would include content that stirs emotion. If someone loves it, hates it, or has an opinion about your content, they’ll link to it with an unsolicited link. People often link to rich media content that’s informative, humorous, or silly. An example of this would be the Subservient Chicken (www.subservientchicken.com), a rich-media website that was created by Burger King. So many websites link to that website that it continues to rank very well for the phrase “chicken”. Burger King created the website and people linked to it naturally with unsolicited links. Other examples of great “link bait” content would be the TurfMaker definition described above and content such as dictionaries, glossaries, blogs, or news related to your industry. Great content is just the beginning of a linking campaign—other websites must have a reason to link to your website. Give them a reason and they’ll hopefully link to your website, making it easier to use the other parts of performing a linking campaign I’ll describe in just a moment.

Internal Linking
Once you have great content on your website, you first need to take care of your internal linking before dealing with getting external links from other websites. (“Internal linking” is the links on your website that you control—which web pages you link to on your website and how you link to them.) The internal links on your website must be search engine friendly. They must be “crawlable” links that include descriptive anchor text. For example, if you include a “telecom glossary” on your website as a resource, then the links that point to that telecom glossary should include the anchor text of “telecom glossary”, which describes what the visitor is going to find when they click on the link. It also helps that this is most likely the search term someone is going to use when they search at a search engine looking for a telecom glossary.

All the web pages on your website must be unique (don’t duplicate content or copy content from someone else’s website), and all pages must have at least one link from another web page in order to remain in most search engine indices. Keep in mind that your website’s most important pages (including your great “link bait content) should have more internal links from other pages than your least-important pages. Your home page should link to your most important pages (like your products page, your categories page, and your great “link bait” content pages). And all the other pages on your site should link to your most important pages, as well. Think of it this way—the more links a page has the more important it appears to be from a search engine perspective.

Great internal linking also means that you link to your related topics and your most important products (if you sell products on your website). When someone visits a page on your site they might not enter from the home page—they might first visit your great “link bait” content. If that great “link bait” content doesn’t link to related products that you sell then you’re missing the opportunity to sell those products. You’re also missing a great opportunity to appeal to the search engines, as the search engines will find your great “link bait” content and then move on to your products if you include links to them. Once you’ve added the great “link bait” content to your website and are comfortable with your internal linking structure on the site, then it’s time to move on to external links from other websites.

External Linking
One of the first things you can do is go on over to WebmasterWorld and read a great explanatory thread about external linking by Sugarrae titled “Link Development versus Traffic Development and Staying with the Times” (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum12/3047.htm). Rae Hoffman (http://www.sugarrae.com), prominent Search Engine Marketing Consultant, explains that linking in 2006 has changed:

Quote:

If you’re sending out hundreds of reciprocal link requests each week and have a 14 page links section on your site, please do the following:
1. Find the time listed on the bottom right hand side of your monitor.
2. Place your mouse cursor over it and double click
3. Please change the year on your calendar from 2003 to 2006

Now you might actually get to focus on doing some productive marketing for your website. Notice I said marketing, and not link development. The bar has been raised. You can fight it or meet it – the choice is up to you. There is more sophistication in the algorithms of today, there is more sophistication in the level of competition and there is more sophistication from our sites expected by visitors.

Ms. Hoffman goes on to explain that there are several things you need to be doing, such as getting on topic links to your website and buying links that will result in clicks (i.e. traffic). You can write "800 word" articles that add value and articles based on your keywords. You especially need to diversify your anchor text, as well. And don’t forget about contributing to a select few communities online--and making yourself known. Something else that you can do is create (and post regularly) in a blog.

Start researching your industry. Find other websites that will link to you without the need for a reciprocal link back to their website. The following is a list of searches that you might use to find websites that might link to your website that are on-topic and share your same keywords:
"Suggest link" +"keyword“
"Suggest a link" +"keyword“
"Suggest site" + "keyword“
"Suggest a site" + "keyword“
"Suggest URL" +"keyword”
"Suggest a URL" +"keyword"
"Add link" +"keyword"
"Suggest an URL" +"keyword“
"Add a link" +"keyword“
"Add site" +"keyword“
"Add a site" +"keyword"
"Add URL" +"keyword"
"Add a URL" +"keyword“
"Add an URL" +"keyword"
"Submit link" +"keyword“
"Submit a link" +"keyword“
"Submit site" +"keyword"
"Submit a site" +"keyword"
"Submit URL" +"keyword”
"Submit a URL" +"keyword"
“Submit an URL" +"keyword“
"favorite links" +"keyword"
"cool sites" +"keyword"
"cool places" +"keyword“
directory +"keyword"
directorys +"keyword"
directories +"keyword"
"your location" +"add url"
"your location" +directory
"your location" +"submit site“
"recommended links" +"keyword“
"your location" +"suggest a site"

I recommend staying away from any website that talk about “reciprocal links” or “exchanging links”, as the search engines are beginning to discount or ignore those links. Search engines tend to ignore, discount, or even penalize websites that are participating in what I call “link schemes”, any type of linking that is done for the purpose of getting better search engine rankings—and not for the benefit of a website’s visitors. Reciprocal linking and exchanging links falls into the category of a “link scheme”.

Link Building for New Websites
If you’ve got a completely new website that hasn’t been around for a while then there are things you can do to help promote that new website and help it get noticed fairly quickly. I recommend first making sure that your site is submitted to the top web directories (always hand edited), including Yahoo!, DMOZ.org, botw.org, sbd.bcentral.com, and industry niche directories that are related to your industry. If you’re a business, then don’t forget about Business.com.

Next, write and distribute a press release about new website. You don’t have to pay a lot of money to hire someone to write the press release as there’s a lot of people out there who will help you write it. You can save money by writing the press release yourself. If you need some hints about writing a good press release, you might try searching for recent press releases that were written about website similar to yours—and look for website press releases that have recently launched to get some ideas. Once you have a polished press release (don’t forget links to your website and internal links to your great “link bait” content), you can distribute it for free or use a service like PRWeb.com, Eric Ward’s URLwire.com, BusinessWire, or PR Newswire.

Start advertising your website by buying a few text links if you have the budget. If you’re on a limited budget then you might consider starting a PPC campaign. Paying for visitors via PPC doesn't help with links necessarily, but you will get traffic and perhaps noticed in your niche. You could even pay for traffic to your great “link bait” content, which might in itself get some links from other websites. The whole point is to get noticed in your industry. Another thing that I’ve mentioned earlier was to add a blog to your website and get blog search engine traffic and links from other bloggers in your niche. Make sure your blog has an RSS feed; when you post something in your blog make sure your blog software sends out a ping to the major blog search engines, including Technorati; that will help get some traffic to your site.

Link Building for Older or Established Websites
Before starting a linking campaign, make sure that you’ve analyzed your current internal linking structure. If you don’t have great “link bait” content on your site, consider adding it—if you’re a major corporation then you might even consider writing a white paper, doing a survey, or creating some sort of other content, such as a glossary for your industry’s frequently-used terms. Take a look at the current links to your website from other websites and read the Sugarrae thread at WebmasterWorld mentioned above. If you’re participating in any sort of link scheme, stop it. Remove any type of linking on your site that you’ve done to “game” the search engine rankings. Linking out to other industry resources is good and expected by your website’s visitors but “trading links” just to “game” the search engine rankings or having long links pages is not recommended. Jumpstart your website with new links; make sure your website is listed in the major website directory listings. Consider writing and distributing a press release and adding a blog to your site. Did I mention adding some more great “link bait” content to your website? I don’t mean to mention it again, but it really is an important part of getting additional links to your site. Lastly, if you’ve got an established website, consider advertising on other industry sites and writing and distributing useful articles on a regular basis.

Linking Best Practices
There are several things worth mentioning when it comes to linking. Don’t be afraid to link out to good content. If you see something in your industry that’s helpful to your website’s visitors, then link to it and tell them about it. After all, it’s a two way street: you have good content on your website that you think other should link to. And other websites have good content that they think you should link to. So, don’t be afraid to link out to good useful content, especially if it’s relevant to your industry.

Try to use links in context. In other words, links in the middle of a paragraph and in the middle of a sentence is worth more than a link that’s buried in the sidebar navigation or at the bottom of your web page all by itself. The search engines can distinguish between a link in a sentence and a link that appears in your site’s navigation or all by itself on the bottom of the page without any text around it.

Get free publicity (http://www.jeffcrilley.com) for your website and your business. Jeff Crilley, an Emmy Award Winning television reporter, will tell you how to write a “killer” press release, how to come up with ideas that are guaranteed to get media coverage, how to hold a news conference the media will love, and how to keep reporters coming back for more. I’ve used many of his methods to get a lot of media attention for some of my websites and client websites, and using the media to get free publicity is a great way to get noticed, get links, and get articles in major online publications written about your site.

Don’t forget about analyzing the links of your competitors’ websites, especially the ones who rank well for search phrases that you’d like to rank well for. Oftentimes, you can identify links to their website that are valuable to them—and you can get a link from that website as well. Many ‘resource’ type of websites in certain industries will gladly list your site especially if they’re unbiased and list several companies in your industry; you just have to ask. Additionally, if you have an ecommerce site, adding your products listed and product feeds listed in Google Base, Froogle, and other shopping search engines may help, as well.

Linking Worst Practices
There many things to stay away from when you’re building links to your website. The search engines are very smart when it comes to identifying links that you control. In other words, the search engines are looking for unbiased links; they do not care much for links that you have control over like links from one website you own to another website you own. The search engines use any means they can to identify links that you control; they usually discount them or penalize for it; and in extreme cases they might outright ban websites that are trying to “game” their search results.

I would stay away from linking two web pages together that are hosted on the same IP address or the same Class “C” block of IP addresses. If you haven’t gotten any new links to your website from other websites then your site might become stale. The search engines don’t generally reward websites that become stale, as that might be an indication of bad content. If you’re buying anchor text links or advertising on other websites, then stay away from “site-wide buys”. The last thing you want is the same text link on every page of someone else’s 30,000 page website; it just looks too suspicious or too “spammy”. I also recommend staying away from paid links that don’t share your site’s own topic. Why would you promote your travel site on a website about Alzheimer’s disease? That doesn’t make sense, and the visitors to the Alzheimer’s site are probably not going to be interested in the best travel deals.

I’ve already mentioned that you should stay away from link schemes and any sort of linking among websites or web pages that are just there to “game” the search results. Stay away from bad neighborhoods and don’t participate in link networks. I’ve also already mentioned that orphan pages on your website won’t stay in the search engine index; so if it’s a valuable page to you, then make sure it has links. Finally, don’t even think about blog spam, log spam, guestbook spam, and message board/forum spam. Those types of links won’t get your website anywhere in the search engine rankings.

When it comes to a linking campaign, we all must realize that we cannot build links to our website and stop—it’s a constant process that needs attention just about every day. Although you might not add new content to your website every day, it’s important to always be in the “mode” of thinking about links. Building new links to your website is like branding your company and branding your website. Always be on the lookout for new business opportunities and new places to get links to your website—doing that will keep your website on the top of your potential customers’ minds and at the top of the search engine rankings.

marcel · #2 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 05:44 PM

Great information.. thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

DomainDrivers · #3 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 06:18 PM

For anyone who wants an alternative view of reciprocal linking, please see
"The Reciprocal Link Short Sellers"
http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/...ad.php?p=69063

Readers should be aware that Mr. Hartzer and provides absolutely no proof of his statements regarding reciprocal linking. None.

It gets old reading this nonsense.

I do recip link work for hundreds of sites, and have done it for many, many years. We link with relevance as the over-riding criteria. We do this work professionally and correctly.

Recip linking, done properly, is still a vary valid method of getting links, regardless of what "experts" say.

The proof is in the fact that my clients continue to do quite well, thank you.

chrisJumbo · #4 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 06:22 PM

This is why the folks on this forum rock. Even though in some respects we compete against each other, everyone is still willing to share and help others be more successful. If only the world could operate this way on a bigger scale. Thank you to Bill and WPW.

incrediblehelp · #5 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DomainDrivers

We link with relevance as the over-riding criteria.

If newbie's and experts a like just paid attention to that one rule no one would have to worry about PR, reciprocating, one-way, interlinking, cross linking, etc...

bhartzer · #6 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

statements regarding reciprocal linking

I've always taken the view that if you're "trading links" or reciprocal linking just for search engine ranking benefit then you shouldn't do it.

There have always been website owners out there who believe that "trading links" and reciprocal linking isn't very "professional". After all, when was the last time you saw a corporate website "trading links"?

noel_x99 · #7 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 07:10 PM

We run a very local site that promotes businesses in our county. To say that our geographic region is "behind the times" is putting it kindly.

Any suggestions on how to approach sites about buying text links - when they likely do not have much of a clue of what I'm talking about?

How do you go about "buying a text link"?

dburdon · #8 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 07:25 PM

Bill's done a good job in covering the ground. However, I've seen little evidence that relevant reciprocal links have been penalised. Quite the reverse in fact.

Pages which seem to have a concentration of links from a cluster of closely related sites seem to be doign rather well right now. Many of the links involved are almost by definition site reciprocal.

SemAdvance · #9 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 07:35 PM

I agree with BHartzer for the most part but will add some insites.

I would stress one way links are going to be of the most value to search engines.

To get around the same IP and C Class issue..... host with different companies. In fact this can be cheaper than buying links that will hurt you. (See Below)

Reciprocal links lend traffic but will have little meaning to search engines, a PR5 link exchanging with a PR5 link, cancels the value of each to 0.

In other words, I vote for you..... you vote for me. No matter how many times you multiply this out... there will never be a winner or a loser...everything will always be equal.

Search Engine Math 1 + 1 = 0

Use free host and popular community blogs. Also use Google, Msn & Yahoo's blog offerings'. Update all three SE blog offerings weekly and over time this will serve you well. The search engines are at least smart enough to count their own pages as valuable, and in return, links to your main site will have nice value...And they are one way if you don't link back

:-P

Work on the content of your sites, as it is of much more benefit and reward, hour per hour, and ROI wise, than the time spent building links.

Also like the keyword meta tag... links have been abused so badly.... it takes Google over 90 days to validate the links to your site and assign PR.

And I have proof of this as I documented it with a client. I counted the links on Google Msn Yahoo everyweek. Yahoo and MSN link counts changed weekly, Googles link count did not change for over 11 weeks.

Buying text links: I've written how bad an idea this was over a year or so ago. It is really common sense and to see so many "SEO Experts" fall in line like little humpty dumpty soldiers and buy into the whole thing, was/is sad.

Buying votes in any election is illegal and unethical...search engine election included.

To each of you who disagree...would you allow such in an election you were running in??

How so many of the so called SEO Experts... could stand up and say they could not see how wrong this was/is... remains one of the largest hypocrisies ever portended.

For webmasters,,,,if you buy links, make sure the no follow rule is applied, or expect to see your site falter in Google rankings, and perhaps the other two engines in the future should they lean their algos towards linking, more than the current state.

IMHO

Peace

bhartzer · #10 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

How do you go about "buying a text link"?

Tell them you want to advertise. Then tell them that you wish to have a normal text link rather than a banner ad or graphic.

Some say that a graphic with some relevent alt text helps, so you might consider that option, as well. Feel free to mix it up, as you need to have a good mix of graphic links as well as various anchor text links to your site.

SemAdvance · #11 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel_x99

We run a very local site that promotes businesses in our county. To say that our geographic region is "behind the times" is putting it kindly.

Any suggestions on how to approach sites about buying text links - when they likely do not have much of a clue of what I'm talking about?

How do you go about "buying a text link"?

Firstly what is your business model?? Sounds like selling text links was not your business plan when you set out on the road known as the web.

You would sell the text link ads, as you would any other ad. Show them what it is online ...take a laptop to their business and do it online or use images. ( I know where you speak of and would doubt broadband will ever penetrate 100%) that being said..PA is one of the more technologically advanced states there is..and this is an area that has survived past the coal mines...

Plus with some humbleness.. there are a few very good seos, sems $ usability experts from PA, Aaron Wall, Kim Krause, and others..AND your side has produced some Hall of Fame football players...so not that far behind the times...just different priorites lol....

Stay with your original business plan and make the text link brokerage another revenue stream, perhaps an upgrade after you have secured the original business you wanted from them.

You'll have to sell them to get online first...trying to sell them text links will just add confusion at this point.

Once you have your business from them....then it is simply a matter of education.

Hope this helps.

Peace

From Home of the Cheesesteak ;->

isharli · #12 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 09:33 PM

Could someone comment on the benefit of one way links?

Is it truly the way to go?

nipplecharms1 · #13 (**permalink**) 05-01-2006, 10:13 PM

God I love this place!

One has to just find the nuggets and run with them. I find this thread very helpful. Personally, we have a number of links that we have traded with over the years. They have been, for the most part, either products specific or at the very least, industry related.

For example, for our site, both jewelry sites and adult products compliment each other. Additionally, swingers’ sites also work well in our genre.

All that said, I do think one way links are better. At least on the Gozizzle. On Yahozzile... well who the heck knows.

Great post and thanks for everyone adding to it.

Play sane!

Michael

espectations · #14 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 04:17 AM

One-way links are still the best. Reason?

Well, it is a vote of confidence to your site. It might be a webmaster that found your information valuable to their related topics and added the link in stead of copying content.

I stopped reciprocating links - I find more value and better time spent on writing articles and press releases, publishing it and doing online marketing -after all, with all the updates my sites are still doing very well with a PR of 5 (not that I place a lot of value on PR).

With that I do not denounce reciprocal linking - my system is not automated and if I find a topic that is really interestesting I will link to it.

Focus now is on online marketing activities and working on inbound links.

dannywirken · #15 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 09:55 AM

Nice article mate! Thanks

DomainDrivers · #16 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 10:05 AM

SemAdvance said:

"Reciprocal links lend traffic but will have little meaning to search engines, a PR5 link exchanging with a PR5 link, cancels the value of each to 0."

Once again, where is the proof of this statement? From what I have seen for years, this is not how SEs work at all.

I have dozens and dozens of clients who do quite well in the search engines (in some very competitive environments) and their PRIMARY method of earning links is via reciprocation.

If reciprocation was nullified, they'd be nowhere.

bhartzer · #17 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Once again, where is the proof of this statement?

Think about it for a second: a one-way link is going to be much much more powerful because it's obviously not there for deliberate search engine ranking benefits. If we "trade links" with each other, then there's much more of a chance that those links are being done for better search engine rankings than if it were a one-way link. It's only logical that the search engines would give more weight or "credit" to one-way links than they give link exchanges.

I'm not sure if the statement about link exchanges "cancelling each other out" is totally correct, as some people have proven that link exchanges still "work".

In my opinion, one-way links are going to give you "credit" of, say, 1 link--and a link exchange might give you "credit" of .10 for each link. So, you would have to have 10 link exchanges in order to get the "credit" of a one way on-topic link.

**crankydave** · #18 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dburdon

Bill's done a good job in covering the ground. However, I've seen little evidence that relevant reciprocal links have been penalised.

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to the type of link, a link is a link is a link. I've seen no evidence of any type of devaluation when it comes to reciprocal linking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

Think about it for a second: a one-way link is going to be much much more powerful because it's obviously not there for deliberate search engine ranking benefits. If we "trade links" with each other, then there's much more of a chance that those links are being done for better search engine rankings than if it were a one-way link. It's only logical that the search engines would give more weight or "credit" to one-way links than they give link exchanges.

Nonsense.

If a site links to me because of some sort of article, content or just because they really like my site, it defies logic to suggest that if I decide to link back to their site for any of the same reasons, that link becomes less valuable in terms of ranking.

You have absolutely no control of who links to you. None. To suggest that a one way IBL somehow holds greater value when there's absolutely no way to determine who placed those links, is baseless from what I have seen. Any value that is conferred is based upon strength of page and level of relevancy and not the type of link it is.

I find it interesting that some folks talk about discouraging reciprocal linking when there's absolutely every reason to encourage it.

Strength of page and level of relevancy matter, not whether you decide to link back. In every respect, a reciprocal link tells you more than a one way all other things being equal. A reciprocal link not only tells an SE that the webmaster is aware of the link pointing to them, it tells them that the webmaster approves of that link and approves of the site that placed link by linking back.

Too much is made of the type of link rather than what is being linked. Reciprocal linking is alive and well and tells you more about a site than what a one way link ever will in the majority of cases.

Dave

webpresence · #19 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 01:00 PM

Great post again, pretty much confirmed our thoughts.

From experience one-way links are more beneficial to a site than reciprocals however they are obviously a lot harder to source then reciprocals as you are basically asking for something for nothing.

Sure, by writing articles and creating 'link bait' the chances of securing quality one-way links are far greater but what happens when your client is unwilling to provide you with an article, new content or the all important link bait? You can make recomendations to the client until the cows come home but very rarely do they actually listen to you and offer any kind of help... then they have a go at you for not securing postion 1 in google!

Without help from a client the only way to secure one-way links is to identify and ask websites if they will link to you in return for, well nothing! As you can imagine very few link requests are succesful and you end up spending hundreds of hours just to secure a few poxy one-way links - is it really worth the effort?

Links are the bain of my life!

**crankydave** · #20 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

In my opinion, one-way links are going to give you "credit" of, say, 1 link--and a link exchange might give you "credit" of .10 for each link. So, you would have to have 10 link exchanges in order to get the "credit" of a one way on-topic link.

So, if an authority site links to "anything", and a link is provided back to that site because they are an authority, that diminishes the value conferred by that link by 90%?

Dave

kapur · #21 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 01:49 PM

No doubt one way link is much better as compare to reciprocal link as far as ranking is concern. Search engine give weight age to the sites having good number of inbound links as compare to the site having reciprocal links.

Still we exchange link with each other because it helps you to get traffic and still is the good way to make your site popular.

incrediblehelp · #22 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 02:01 PM

It is pretty simple from my point of view:

Related links are great!

One-way links are fine.

Reciprocal links are fine.

Even network linking (interlinking) co-owned websites is not a bad idea as long as it is relevant to the end user.

The problem starts to happen when Google or other search engines pick up on cross-linked or internal linked network websites that have absolutely no reason to link to each other, but for ranking purposes. I really have no evidence on how Google or other search engines catch these website owners, but they do occasionally. So I basically recommend clients not to do it because more often than not they will hurt theme selves more than help themselves. Now with that being said Yahoo even frowns on RELEVANT co-owned, cross linked websites. I have seen them demote websites for it even if it was beneficial to then end user. I think all the fear mongering towards reciprocal links started because of the talk of how bad it was to network link or cross link co-owned websites. Unfortunately both are untrue, when done right both are OK.

OK back to reciprocal versus one-way, the bottom line from my point of view is both are worthwhile in your overall SEO process as long as they are relevant. So knowing this it is not really which one is worth more than another, but how many can I get of each. Every client will be different. Some will not allow me to reciprocate links. OK then I have to work on one-way links. Some will allow reciprocal links and since it is easier to get these in the beginning over one-way links I will go get those. Simple.

bhartzer · #23 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 02:31 PM

For those of you who are still talking about reciprocal links please use your scroll bar and go back and re-read my original post...especially the part that says this:

Quote:

If you’re sending out hundreds of reciprocal link requests each week and have a 14 page links section on your site, please do the following:
1. Find the time listed on the bottom right hand side of your monitor.
2. Place your mouse cursor over it and double click
3. Please change the year on your calendar from 2003 to 2006

DomainDrivers · #24 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 02:59 PM

"3. Please change the year on your calendar from 2003 to 2006"

Cute statement, but it has no validity...

Relevant reciprocal linking was the ORIGINAL method of marketing/branding/establishing a website. It existed long before ANY search engine.

It was valid in 1994, 1995,1996....2001...2006...

No need to set my clock.

also, you said previously:

"In my opinion, one-way links are going to give you "credit" of, say, 1 link--and a link exchange might give you "credit" of .10 for each link. So, you would have to have 10 link exchanges in order to get the "credit" of a one way on-topic link."

The key statement here is "in my opinion".

Once again, with every SEO guru that discredits/disparages/denigrates reciproal linking, I ask them every time to provide some form of definitive proof.

To date, after YEARS of doing it, I have yet to get a single one of them provide any proof whatsoever that reciprocal links are of less value than a one way link.

To the contrary, there are tens of thousands of sites that rely on recip links as their primary means of link popularity, and they do quite well.

Of course, no amount of talk will ever stop people from making this claim that recip links are somehow of less value.

So, that simply leaves things at this condition: Sites who do not reciprocate will have to find other ways to get links. Good luck. That leaves the door WIDE OPEN to those who do reciprocate, since recip links tend to cost less and are way more stable than other forms of links.

Show me who in the world is actively going to cite the content of a real esate agent in Peoria, Illinois, for free? The answer is, almost nobody. So all this "content is king" talk is just an excuse to blow out worthless press releases and post to faux article distribution sites. Talk about gaming the search engines!

For those "experts" who do not recip link, and think it's easy and "free", I invite you to give it it try. You'll find out that it is actually much more difficult to get a recip link than you think.

As crankydave rightfully points out:

"A reciprocal link not only tells an SE that the webmaster is aware of the link pointing to them, it tells them that the webmaster approves of that link and approves of the site that placed link by linking back."

Oviously, crankydave does this work, a lot...as do I.

The level of scrutiny applied to a recip link these days is quite high. A site must meet all manner of criteria before most sites will link back. Thse who play games with robot exclusions, no follow tags, hidden links pages, and other goofiness are not usually very successful.

Here's the REAL bottom line...All the anti-recip link crowd does is make my job easier, since tens of thousands of site owners just simply ignore these people, and reciprocate anyhow.

**crankydave** · #25 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

For those of you who are still talking about reciprocal links please use your scroll bar and go back and re-read my original post...especially the part that says this:

Quote:

If you’re sending out hundreds of reciprocal link requests each week and have a 14 page links section on your site, please do the following:
1. Find the time listed on the bottom right hand side of your monitor.
2. Place your mouse cursor over it and double click
3. Please change the year on your calendar from 2003 to 2006

This quote is meaningless since neither you nor the person who wrote it, with all due repect to you both, have a clue as to what a reciprocated link is "worth" in the eyes of a SE.

You also have a scroll bar. It's located on the right side :wink:

Please reread these

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

Think about it for a second: a one-way link is going to be much much more powerful because it's obviously not there for deliberate search engine ranking benefits. If we "trade links" with each other, then there's much more of a chance that those links are being done for better search engine rankings than if it were a one-way link. It's only logical that the search engines would give more weight or "credit" to one-way links than they give link exchanges.

And this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

In my opinion, one-way links are going to give you "credit" of, say, 1 link--and a link exchange might give you "credit" of .10 for each link. So, you would have to have 10 link exchanges in order to get the "credit" of a one way on-topic link.

I pointed out why your first statement is wrong, and this second statement is nothing more than a W.A.G. based on little to nothing.

You've yet to answer my question above as well. That's what the scroll bar is for. :another winking smiley:

While you're rereading, pay particular attention to this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by crankydave

If a site links to me because of some sort of article, content or just because they really like my site, it defies logic to suggest that if I decide to link back to their site for any of the same reasons, that link becomes less valuable in terms of ranking.

You have absolutely no control of who links to you. None. To suggest that a one way IBL somehow holds greater value when there's absolutely no way to determine who placed those links, is baseless from what I have seen. Any value that is conferred is based upon strength of page and level of relevancy and not the type of link it is.

And to add, one way links are just as easy to use, if not moreso, to manipulate rankings than reciprocal. One ways are just harder to catch.

Dave

stretch dog · #26 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 05:25 PM

"The level of scrutiny applied to a recip link these days is quite high. A site must meet all manner of criteria before most sites will link back. "

Ok, so is anyone here willing to take a few minutes to post a fully comprehensive and defintive list of "criteria" so those of us that still believe "reciprocal" link exchanges are of value at least have specific guidelines to follow... ???

SD

Ps... It's my opinion that if you are going to set up a resource directory, at least organize it hierarchically by relevant category, publish each category to a dedicated and properly optimized page of its own, include some unique descriptive content, and be sure to provide one-way outgoing links to relevant authorities within each of your categories.

That way at least your links pages are true resources for your visitors, relevant, and you have a mix of reciprical and one-way out bound links instead of all recips.

Also include contextual out-going links to related authorities within your articles and information pages (when appropriate to do so...) so your visitor has somewhere to go for support or more indepth information.

Just my 0.02 worth... other than that, this has been a rather thought provoking thread, as have the other several threads linked to!

Thanks... ;-))~~~~~~~~~~

DomainDrivers · #27 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

stretch dog...

Ok, so is anyone here willing to take a few minutes to post a fully comprehensive and definitive list of "criteria" so those of us that still believe "reciprocal" link exchanges are of value at least have specific guidelines to follow... ???

Sure, I have done recip link work for hundreds of sites. I see ridiculous stuff all the time. Most of it is some kind of selfish "ploy" that they have concocted to try to game the engines, and they demand that other people comply. All it does is make the site with the demand appear childish.

Your own criteria were valid ones, but not always necessary.

Remember this...reciprocal linking takes place between TWO HUMAN BEINGS. Each of them has to agree to the exchange or there is no exchange. Bullying and obnoxious behavior is loser behavior. You have to give to get. Be an adult.

While I am obnoxious and intolerant with all the SEO gurus who think they know everything about this subject, but they don't really know much of anything about it because they don't actually do it, I am very, very gracious with my link exchange partners.

The basics, in no particular order:

1) Never link automotive sites to gambling, viagra, health supplement, ink jet or ring tone sites. Link auto sites to auto sites, home-related to home related, health to health, etc. STAY RELEVANT. STAY RELEVANT. STAY RELEVANT.

2) Never, ever use no follow tags on the links or robot exclusions on links directories as a means to "hide" links. That's just immature, and of ZERO value anyhow. All it does is give people a VERY GOOD REASON to ignore your link request. Likewise, never "hide" your links pages. If you are going to reciprocate, be up front.

3) Never give deadlines or threaten to remove links. Be patient. People have more important things to do than make sure a link is placed within 48 hours. Or two weeks.

4) Never demand that they link to all 20 of your sites first. Take links as you get them, appropriately

5) Always link first, then make the request, and tell them where to find their link.

6) Skip the flowery talk about how this will help both of you achieve better rankings, blah blah blah. Be direct and concise with email requests.

7) Skip the talk about your high PR values. Snore.

8) USE SUBMISSION FORMS if they are provided. DO NOT send email requests to sites that provide forms, just because it is easier to blast out email. They'll usually ignore your email request anyhow, or send you to the form.

9) DO NOT solicit sites that do not publicly have a link directory and/or do not offer to exchange.

10) Do not demand PR for PR equivalence. In fact, ignore PR completely. You'll sleep much better, and get a lot more links.

11) Do not use an email verification gateway. If you want your requests by email, then make it a fully public email. Otherwise, you'll lose a lot of links that you could have had, since many people will not "verify" your address by typing a goofy word into a box. I can't imagine why anyone would want requests by email anyhow. If you're going to do this, then put up a submission form, even if it is a simple mailto: form. At least then the requests you do get will be orderly.

12) Categorize the link directory properly. Links page 1, 2, 3, 4 is not proper categorization.

13) Limit your links per page to something reasonable. If you get too many on a page, start a sub-category.

14) Link to and from the SAME DOMAIN. Three-way links are just so much SEO fad-du-jour. Most people with legitimate sites who offer to reciprocate will avoid three way links like the plague, and they see them for what they are. That is, you get a link from a junk site, but they want you to link back to their primary site. It's bogus.

That's a good start of what to do/not do. Overall, remember, there is a real person on the other end of a link request that wants to be treated fairly, as do you.

I hope it helps.

ozzie_jim · #28 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 07:29 PM

I'll throw another in opinion here:
Outbound links improve your search rankings. Yep, having links to other high quality, relevant sites improves your rankings. Not your PR which is a meaningless figure, but where you appear in Google which is the important bit.

Nearly every coffee site has a link out to the Espresso Top 50 on their home page. If you take it off then your position in Google immediately drops. This happens before your reciprocal link in the Espresso Top 50 is removed. Google wants you to point out to other relevant sites, to be part of the internet community.

The best proof is in the results, try it, measure it, and find out for yourself. Relevant linking, in and out, is favoured (currently) by Google.

SemAdvance · #29 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

For those of you who are still talking about reciprocal links please use your scroll bar and go back and re-read my original post...especially the part that says this:

Quote:

If you’re sending out hundreds of reciprocal link requests each week and have a 14 page links section on your site, please do the following:
1. Find the time listed on the bottom right hand side of your monitor.
2. Place your mouse cursor over it and double click
3. Please change the year on your calendar from 2003 to 2006

LOL Very Good!!!!!

I applaud you!!!!

SemAdvance · #30 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzie_jim

I'll throw another in opinion here:
Outbound links improve your search rankings. Yep, having links to other high quality, relevant sites improves your rankings. Not your PR which is a meaningless figure, but where you appear in Google which is the important bit.

Nearly every coffee site has a link out to the Espresso Top 50 on their home page. If you take it off then your position in Google immediately drops. This happens before your reciprocal link in the Espresso Top 50 is removed. Google wants you to point out to other relevant sites, to be part of the internet community.

The best proof is in the results, try it, measure it, and find out for yourself. Relevant linking, in and out, is favoured (currently) by Google.

Shhhhhh!!!! Why are you letting this out...people will think you are crazy..

Vey excellent observation ...however outbound links do raise/lower the PR for your site.

It may be minute but links to, within, and from your site, all have a value...why would only links to, and within, your site have value???

Think outside what you know.....

kevan · #31 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 08:41 PM

All,
I was impressed by Bills posting, and followed a few simple rules that he posted.
Here is an overview of what I had possibly done wrong:
I have three sites - a new one called londonpublichouse.com plus two others that have been running for a while - essexpub.net and rootsgen.com

I originally tried to get the new London Pubs site up the ranking by adding lots of links from the other two recognised sites - WRONG.
I also realised that google has a whole host of pictures in its library that point at rootsgen, so I added the pages and pictures back to this site - even though this was duplicating content.
Google rankings were ok for a while; then I noticed that a page that I had purposely created on rootsgen, that was just a whole host of links to my new site, was the only page getting ranked in google. then to my surprise, the listings for a search for 'London Public House' and 'London Public Houses' was completely zero.

Following Bills posting, I have now removed all of the duplication, I have removed loads of extra links; and to top it I have removed large quantitiies of google adsense links - about 10,000 or so. This was earning a couple of pounds sterling every day, but I was suffering from some ghastly advertising from one of the big mobile phone companies - so what the heck.

Is google that important? Yes, to me it is. The other excellent search engines all place me on top for where I think I should be seen. But I place greatest importance on the google search engine - well I did once. Now, i am not so sure; and perhaps I will continue building the site (60-70 hours a week) just for the hell of it.

I would warmly welcome any feedback on what I am doing wrong. The London Pubs site is unique in genealogy, the money I may raise to pay for its upkeep is secondary. Maybe an addition to my pension in years to come, but for now it's just for fun.

Thanks
Kevan

adacprogramming · #32 (**permalink**) 05-02-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzie_jim

I'll throw another in opinion here:
Outbound links improve your search rankings. Yep, having links to other high quality, relevant sites improves your rankings. Not your PR which is a meaningless figure, but where you appear in Google which is the important bit.

Nearly every coffee site has a link out to the Espresso Top 50 on their home page. If you take it off then your position in Google immediately drops. This happens before your reciprocal link in the Espresso Top 50 is removed. Google wants you to point out to other relevant sites, to be part of the internet community.

The best proof is in the results, try it, measure it, and find out for yourself. Relevant linking, in and out, is favoured (currently) by Google.

I find this interesting, I have sites where there are interier pages that link higher than the main page. These interier pages have no or very little incoming links. The only reasonable explaination is that the outgoing links added to the pages value.

DomainDrivers · #33 (**permalink**) 05-05-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

bhartzer wrote:

I've always taken the view that if you're "trading links" or reciprocal linking just for search engine ranking benefit then you shouldn't do it.

The purpose of proper reciprocal linking goes far beyond SEO considerations. It's about branding a site in a particular realm of interest. SEO benefits derive from doing that.

There are additional benefits to a reciprocal linking campaign that have nothing at all to do with SEO, but have everything to do with marketing.

Those who choose to look at this from only an SEO perspective are declaring their genuine lack of understanding of how this all plays out.

For many of our clients, the non-SEO benefits are substantial, and worth the cost of doing the work, even without the SEO effect. In an enthusiast/hobbyist realm of interest, the effect can be quite dramatic.

Anyone who does this work knows how this really plays out. Those who stand on the sidelines and toss insults and disparaging remarks about something that they admittedly don't do and thus don't really understand is curious, at best.

Quote:

bhartzer wrote:

There have always been website owners out there who believe that "trading links" and reciprocal linking isn't very "professional".

Lots of people have a lot of opinions. People who don't like it shouldn't do it.

Quote:

bhartzer wrote:

After all, when was the last time you saw a corporate website "trading links"?

Actually, we have clients that are quite large corporations, with sales in the tens of millions of dollar range. What's your threshold defining "corporate"?

It's true that Fortune 2000-level companies do not generally pursue reciprocal linking. They have multi-million dollar ad budgets that create all manner of branding for them, and their very presence and marketing clout generates links for them.

A real estate agent in Peoria, Illinois does not have the same advantage. They have to establish stable links, and do it affordably. Reciprocation is one way.

And yes, the roots of this are genuine grass roots. Lots of niche interest sites that have become very successful used reciprocal links to help them get there. The busted, arrogant, over-funded dot.coms avoided reciprocation like the plague, thinking they were islands unto themselves. Most of them are gone, while the grass roots niche sites are still around, going strong.

The fact that I have to make the distinction between the marketing needs of a main street merchant and a F2000 business is absurd. There is no comparison. The approach, budget, and purpose of each are all quite different.

Nevertheless, if General Motors would build a high quality recreation directory, and demand reciprocation (as well as other quality standards) for a site to get listed, it is likely that they'd be quite successful with it. Purely as a marketing tool, not as an SEO tool.

Good niche directories are very powerful content. Always have been. Demanding reciprocation to be listed in one is the directory owner's prerogative.

bhartzer · #34 (**permalink**) 05-05-2006, 08:06 PM

While you continue to talk about reciprocal links, let's delve into this a little bit more and examine exactly why reciprocal links pages in general do not work.

When you "trade links" with someone, generally they put your link on a "links page" on their website or another page that they call "resources" or whatever. And, in return, most of the time you do the same thing--you add them to your links page (if you trade links with people).

Do you want to know the real reason why "links pages" are dead? The pages where your link appears don't have any backlinks to them from external sites! If all of your backlinks come from "low trust" pages (pages that do not have many backlinks from external sites), then guess what? Those links aren't worth much to you.

Think about it second. You need to have links from web pages that have lots of links to them (i.e., pages that are popular). External sites don't generally link to "links pages", so having your link on a links page (which is what happens when you trade links) is not going to be something you want.

I personally would rather get 1 link from a real popular page that has some direct backlinks to it from other external sites than gett 500 backlinks from pages that do not have any direct outside "external" backlinks to them.

So, if you absolutely positively are obsessed with "trading links" with other sites then you better make sure that that link is going to be on their home page or another page that has a lot of links from external sites.

That's why links pages and reciprocal links are generally dead.

**crankydave** · #35 (**permalink**) 05-06-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

While you continue to talk about reciprocal links, let's delve into this a little bit more and examine exactly why reciprocal links pages in general do not work.

When you "trade links" with someone, generally they put your link on a "links page" on their website or another page that they call "resources" or whatever. And, in return, most of the time you do the same thing--you add them to your links page (if you trade links with people).

Do you want to know the real reason why "links pages" are dead? The pages where your link appears don't have any backlinks to them from external sites! If all of your backlinks come from "low trust" pages (pages that do not have many backlinks from external sites), then guess what? Those links aren't worth much to you.

Think about it second. You need to have links from web pages that have lots of links to them (i.e., pages that are popular). External sites don't generally link to "links pages", so having your link on a links page (which is what happens when you trade links) is not going to be something you want.

I personally would rather get 1 link from a real popular page that has some direct backlinks to it from other external sites than gett 500 backlinks from pages that do not have any direct outside "external" backlinks to them.

So, if you absolutely positively are obsessed with "trading links" with other sites then you better make sure that that link is going to be on their home page or another page that has a lot of links from external sites.

That's why links pages and reciprocal links are generally dead.

Dead wrong.

If you're able, back up your conjectures with verfiable examples.

First off, a page does not need to have external links pointing to it to have value. It does not need to have external links pointing to it to rank well. There are millions of pages that rank on the first page with nothing more than internal links pointing to it. I can give examples that are #1.

How do you figure backlinks coming from a page with no external links is a "low trust" page? This is simply nonsense.

Whether or not you'd prefer 1 link to 500 is certainly your business, but to suggest that someone interested in a link exchange campaign that they "make sure" they get a link from a homepage or another page that has lot's of external links is horrible advice. I'll tell you what, I'll give you 1 link and I'll take the 500 and I'll blow you out of the water when it comes to ranking every time.

Clearly, you're not a fan of link exchanges. It's also very clear you do not have a clue as to their value. All you have done this far, in regards to reciprocal linking, is spout nonsense based on flawed conjecture that simply defies logic. The fact remains, you have not, and cannot point to any verifiable examples that demonstrate your points.

I hope noone overlooks the many good points you made in your article. I haven't. I do hope however, they ignore your position and suppositions on reciprocal linking.

Dave

DomainDrivers · #36 (**permalink**) 05-07-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

bhartzer:

While you continue to talk about reciprocal links, let's delve into this a little bit more and examine exactly why reciprocal links pages in general do not work.

Dude, you keep saying this. Yet you provide virtually NO PROOF of that statement.

Quote:

When you "trade links" with someone, generally they put your link on a "links page" on their website or another page that they call "resources" or whatever. And, in return, most of the time you do the same thing--you add them to your links page (if you trade links with people).

So what? That's how it works.

Quote:

Do you want to know the real reason why "links pages" are dead? The pages where your link appears don't have any back links to them from external sites!

Once again, you display your wholesale lack of understanding of reciprocal linking. Many sites build pages of links that link to the page that links to them. We don't. But people do it. There are tools that will do it easily.

If you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't make such completely unfounded statements.

Quote:

If all of your back links come from "low trust" pages (pages that do not have many back links from external sites), then guess what? Those links aren't worth much to you.

Whatever you say...:) It's getting ridiculous. Like every other SEO guru who makes the same claims that you do, you ignore everything that is said to the contrary, regardless of facts, logic, or anything else. You have an over-riding need to state that reciprocal linking is dead. But you provide no proof.

Quote:

Think about it second.

I think about all of this constantly. Reciprocal linking is what I do for a living, and have done it for years. In spite of what you say, and all those who think like you, what I do works for my clients, extraordinarily well sometimes. If you want to deny it, then I guess that's what you need to do. I find it almost comical.

Client success. That's what keeps me going, pays my bills, and allows me to come in here confidently and state, unequivocally, that you really don't know what your are talking about.

Quote:

That's why links pages and reciprocal links are generally dead.

So, explain to me this...Since I have been doing this for several years, I am aware of a large numbers of sites that have also been doing reciprocal linking actively for the same time, or longer.

By and large, these are sites that have been shown at "above the fold" positions in Google for their primary terms for years. Some of them have been there since Google started producing public results.

These sites continue to reciprocate actively. They have established positions that are not the least bit affected by a newcomer site with a couple of carefully placed, paid links.

It is astounding that you are in this business and are not aware of them. They are the "800 pound links gorillas". They're names are commonplace to many of us. I am on a first name basis with many. They laugh at SEO advisors who tell their clients to not reciprocate, because following such advice guarantees that they will never catch up.

A guitar string retailer should reciprocate with a guitar builder (luthier), and they both can reciprocate with a musician. And they can all link with a sheet music site. To say that one site should link to another, but not expect to get a link back, out of courtesy, is just spectacularly selfish thinking. How does that work? Ask all of the above sites for a link and let them know in advance that you have no intention of linking back. Good luck with that approach.

Regardless of what you say, (or that of any other SEO anti-reciprocal ideologue), these established sites continue to reciprocate. Because it works, it's appropriate, and it's just basic, sound marketing. The SEO results that derive from it are just the gravy, the icing on the cake.

And if anyone wants proof, just pick a several realms of interest, plug in some search terms, look at the results, and look at the link profiles of the high ranking sites.

The "800 pound link gorillas" who openly and actively reciprocate will reveal themselves, again, and again, and again.

bhartzer · #37 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 01:46 PM

crankydave, DomainDrivers, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

There are certain businesses that, for whatever reason, just won't or cannot "trade links". It may be because they think that "trading links" is "unprofessional". Perhaps "trading links" and participating in link schemes is better for small businesses, I don't know; I don't participate in link schemes, never have, and never will.

As for where your link appears, it makes a big difference--your link has to appear on a page that has a lot of links going to it, either internal links or external links. Obviously a page with a lot of external links going to it is going to be preferred over a page that doesn't have many links going to it.

Again, I'm going to have to say that we've just got to agree to disagree in this one. Good luck with your "reciprocal linking" and "trading links". I'll get links elsewhere, thank you very much.

DomainDrivers · #38 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

bhartzer
Again, I'm going to have to say that we've just got to agree to disagree in this one. Good luck with your "reciprocal linking" and "trading links". I'll get links elsewhere, thank you very much.

Wow! That's along way from proving that reciprocal linking doesn't work, is dead, is nullified, etc., which is basically what you have been saying up to now. Now you are just saying that you don't like it, based on your own conceptions about it.

If it is not right for you or your clients, don't do it. I have said exactly that for years. It's not for everyone. But if you decide to not do it, at least have the ability to analyze it objectively and understand what you may be conceding in the trade off.

I'll never convince you, and I don't want to. I have been down this road with dozens of other SEO gurus who make the same claims about reciprocal linking that you do. Nobody ever backs it up with any proof or facts. Just disparaging remarks.

No, having fought this battle numerous times, my posts are not meant for you. My posts are for those people who look to various "experts" for advice on how to proceed with their site marketing. Those people need a much better understanding of the real facts and considerations, so they can make informed decisions.

Reciprocal linking provides a very affordable, stable method of earning links to a site. Taking reciprocal linking off the table as an option has consequences, especially against other competitors who are not so constrained. If the decision to not reciprocate is based on bogus analysis and false assumptions about it's effectiveness, then it becomes a costly decision. Sometimes very costly, in the form of competitors who reciprocate actively and openly. Catching up to an "800 pound gorilla" that I described previously, because of bad decisions based on bad assumptions, can be next to impossible. I see it play out everyday.

Yes, I agree to disagree, but other readers should understand why. It's not just a matter of great taste/less filling. There are serious business considerations at stake here.

Not reciprocating, in an environment where other successful sites are doing it actively, creates all manner of challenges and hurdles to overcome.

In the end, the people who make informed decisions about their sites are the ones succeeding. Fortunately, there are plenty of them who ignore the pundits who just hurl insults at the practice, and they just reciprocate with other appropriate sites, because it's the right thing for them to do.

**crankydave** · #39 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

crankydave, DomainDrivers, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

There are certain businesses that, for whatever reason, just won't or cannot "trade links". It may be because they think that "trading links" is "unprofessional". Perhaps "trading links" and participating in link schemes is better for small businesses, I don't know; I don't participate in link schemes, never have, and never will.

As for where your link appears, it makes a big difference--your link has to appear on a page that has a lot of links going to it, either internal links or external links. Obviously a page with a lot of external links going to it is going to be preferred over a page that doesn't have many links going to it.

Again, I'm going to have to say that we've just got to agree to disagree in this one. Good luck with your "reciprocal linking" and "trading links". I'll get links elsewhere, thank you very much.

We can certainly agree to disagree. However, I'd much prefer you provide some sort of verifiable examples of your position. I'm certainly not above being convinced but you have yet to provide a single solitary verifiable example. Not one despite being urged to please do so.

At the very least, the members here and anyone reading this thread deserve it. They come here expecting to find informed and objective advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

There are certain businesses that, for whatever reason, just won't or cannot "trade links". It may be because they think that "trading links" is "unprofessional". Perhaps "trading links" and participating in link schemes is better for small businesses, I don't know; I don't participate in link schemes, never have, and never will.

Not wanting to exchange links because the company cannot or feels it looks unprofessional is one matter, you declaring that they are "dead" is quite another. Companies enter into reciprocal agreements all the time. It's Marketing 101 regardless of the size of a business and it's very powerful marketing. Tell anyone of the major pharmaceutical companies reciprocal campaigns are dead and they'll laugh you off the planet.

Also, you failure to differentiate between a reciprocal linking agreement and a "linking scheme", further demonstates your lack of understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

Obviously a page with a lot of external links going to it is going to be preferred over a page that doesn't have many links going to it.

Preferred by whom? Don't say Google when it comes to ranking because this is simply not true.

I have verifiable examples that demonstrate position.

I challenge you to produce examples of yours.

I don't think you can. When it comes to your position on reciprocal linking, you've chosen an indefensable position.

I also wish you continued success.

Dave

DomainDrivers · #40 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

crankydave:

differentiate between a reciprocal linking agreement and a "linking scheme",

Right on, Dave.

Is blasting out press releases a "link scheme"? How about creating "articles" that nobody anywhere will ever read and then submitting them to "re-publish" directories? Is that a scheme, or just spam? How about building sites that do nothing but host client links? How about outright buying links? Is that a scheme, too? I guess a scheme is determined by which SEO is doing it, or not doing it?

Links that don't exist today, but need to exist soon, because the client wants them, are all "schemes" if they are the result of someone forcing the issue. The only "natural" links in this world are the ones that occur without any prompting. So, everyone in this business of getting links, by whatever method they choose, are "scheming" in some way. Calling legitimate reciprocal linking a "scheme" is like telling me that my mother wears Army boots. I don't care.

Let's review some real facts:

Before search engines rewarded links, (and while the SEO crowd was consumed with stuffing keywords into meta tags, blissfully ignoring links), reciprocal linking was just something that alert website owners did to drive traffic.

It was simply a cooperative gesture with other site owners who shared a common realm of interest or had a need to link to each other. Some sites pursued it very diligently, actively looking for other linking opportunities. Google came along and rewarded these sites very nicely. The word got out that links were the key.

All at once, the SEO community, who ignored linking like the plague, suddenly decided to "game it up", as they do with everything else. A lot of inappropriate linking (or at least attempts at it) took place. A lot of SEO practitioners found out just how difficult it is to manage reciprocal linking campaigns properly, especially in a multi-client environment. It's a data management nightmare, and the SEOs got very frustrated with sites who just assigned people in-house to git-r-done, in terms of reciprocation. Those are the 800 pound link gorillas, who give the SEOs fits because they are very hard to displace.

Reciprocating became the "SEO poster boy" for all blame, at every Google update. It got ravaged by a lot of people who just wanted it to go away as an effective, competitive tool. They justified it by saying that a reciprocal link cannot be a "vote" when both parties are voting for each other.

Unfortunately, the engines and the engineers at those engines have never really seen it that way. They seem to continue to reward reciprocal linking as a legitimate, fundamental practice, when done properly. Maybe because they understand historical perspective of reciprocal linking. That it is a legitimate decision on the part of two independent parties to reciprocate to their mutual benefit. To treat it otherwise is to alter the very foundations of the web.

What was ignored by the SEO community, in their rabid need to declare the practice "dead", was a realization that reciprocation has been around long before they were, that it was rewarded by Google in the beginning of Google, and continues to be rewarded when done properly.

People can make up whatever they want. Call it anything they like. Use the term "unprofessional" all day long. None of it matters, except to those people who need to feel that they are following the advice of the gurus.

The SEO community that hates ths practice, inside of these forums and at events where they are the focus, fails to realize that there are tens of thousands of people out there who prefer to make their own judgements, against what they see with their own eyes, and they decide to reciprocate, in spite of the emotionally-charged pleas of the pundits.

When they do, they often find the rewards go well beyond SEO considerations. Duh.

Just like it has happened since the very early days in this industry.

bhartzer · #41 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Not reciprocating, in an environment where other successful sites are doing it actively, creates all manner of challenges and hurdles to overcome.

Not playing the "link exchange game" is an option. People need to realize that you do not have to play that game if they don't want to.

Create good content on your site and people will link to it. Create link bait. There are plenty of companies out there that do not play the link exchange/reciprocal linking game and they're outrank plenty of websites who are playing that game. In fact, the majority of companies out there do not play the link exchange/reciprocal linking game.

**crankydave** · #42 (**permalink**) 05-08-2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

Not playing the "link exchange game" is an option. People need to realize that you do not have to play that game if they don't want to.

Game? Reciprocal linking is not a game. Creating "link bait" is game. Your article describes how to "game" the SE's. It's not letting anything happen naturally.

This is a far cry from saying it doesn't work, which you have repeatedly done in this thread.

If you have produced no verifiable examples that demonstrate your position despite being asked repeatedly to do so, yet you continue you denegrate reciprocal linking.

Put up or shut up.

Dave

DomainDrivers · #43 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

bhartzer

Create good content on your site and people will link to it. Create link bait.

Here's the set-up...The client is a real estate agent in Akron, Ohio. They want to rank better. They need links. They have none.

Their top 5 competitors are reciprocating with other home/real estate sites, and a couple of them already have over 300 very stable, relevant links and are in the top search positions, with well-optimized sites.

That describes the kinds of scenarios that prospective clients bring to us every day.

In all my years of doing this, I have yet to see what kind of content about Akron is going to suddenly make hundreds of other sites swoon over it and race out to post gratuitous, unsolicited links to this real estate agent. Especially a site that nobody even knows is there.

If the "game" is to manufacture some "content", then shill it in the right places so that it gets links, then I fail to see how that scenario is any more "worthy" than simply optimizing and reciprocating.

A lot of commercial sites really do not lend themsleves to the "content creation" game.

DomainDrivers · #44 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

bhartzer
There are plenty of companies out there that do not play the link exchange/reciprocal linking game and they're outrank plenty of websites who are playing that game.

True enough. There are also sites who rely on reciprocation as their primary means of earning links, and they enjoy #1 search positions, and have done it for years.

What's the point? That in the end, links are links?

There are lots of ways to tackle the runner. The real trick is to determine the ones that work best for a particular site/circumstance, and do it efficiently and successfully and within their budget. That might be several ways, or just one or two.

I never advise taking any options off the table. In fact, I always advise my clients to deploy as many legitimate methods of earning links that they can muster up. Some do, some don't.

We regularly turn down cleints that we feel the opportunities to reciprocate are limited, or that it won't work well for them.

But taking options off the table, such as reciprocating, due to unsubstantiated bias or misinformation can be costly.

Quote:

bhartzer

In fact, the majority of companies out there do not play the link exchange/reciprocal linking game.

The majority of companies are in the basement when it comes to search rankings, awareness, branding, etc. Being in the majority here is meaningless.

internet-marketing-cr · #45 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 12:16 PM

Whichever strategy is done for Linking campaings should always be thought for the convenience of our visitors, if you do link exchange for instance it should be done with good, quality, relevant websites, no matter the PR, we should always think what is more convenient for our visitors.

bhartzer · #46 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

If the "game" is to manufacture some "content",

Yeah, gee, creating content on your website that's actually useful. That's certainly a novel concept, don't ya think?

Quote:

A lot of commercial sites really do not lend themsleves to the "content creation" game.

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard--and I've been doing this since 1994. So, you're trying to tell me that a lot of companies' websites cannot include useful content?

Hey if you want to sell link exchange services to websites and recommend that they don't include useful content on their websites then more power to you. Good luck with that.

I'm going continue to recommend that people build websites with useful content that people naturally link to--it's a novel concept.

bhartzer · #47 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

This is a far cry from saying it doesn't work, which you have repeatedly done in this thread.

I've already described why link exhanges generally don't work because your link ends up on a "links list" page or "resources page" which doesn't have a lot of incoming links.

Like I said before, trading links is outdated and soon will be seen as spam by the major search engines (if it isn't already).

If you want to call creating useful content on your website "gaming the search engines" then fine. Whatever it's called, it's content--content that people link to naturally and not "forcefully" because you require a link back.

As for that individual real estate agent in Akron, there's plenty of opportunities to create useful content on their website that others will link to: add the MLS listings and get them indexed. Write a blog post every day. Create a survey or study about the recent home sales in the city and report your findings (are home sales going up or down? are homes in certain neighborhoods getting cheaper or more expensive?) I could think of a million things a realtor in any small city could add to their site that would be useful content and get links naturally.

KeithO · #48 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:47 PM

best. seo thread. ever.

incrediblehelp · #49 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

I've already described why link exhanges generally don't work because your link ends up on a "links list" page or "resources page" which doesn't have a lot of incoming links.

That is why you should try to trade "pre-sell" pages or trade links in a creative manner tucked in content on each others websites. Never on a link page.

**crankydave** · #50 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhartzer

Quote:

This is a far cry from saying it doesn't work, which you have repeatedly done in this thread.

I've already described why link exhanges generally don't work because your link ends up on a "links list" page or "resources page" which doesn't have a lot of incoming links.

And I have already described how you are dead wrong. More than once. Your position is nonsense.

All I have asked you to do is provide a verifiable example of your position.

Something that demonstrates how your explanation is anything more than a Wild A**ed Guess.

Well? Where is it?

Guess what Mr Hartzer, because "I told you so" doesn't mean squat to me.

Stop running and hiding.

Put up or shut up.

Dave

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