Overcharged for SEO services, small results, what do I do

[Psymple]

A new client of mine, recently hired me to work on their Search engine optimization. The former company they hired (a major SEO company) has produced a minimal amount of results.

In October 2005 the site received 471 unique visitors, 128 keyword searches.

In November 2005 the site recieved 479 unique visitors, 121 keyword searches.

December 360 and 117

This new client pays this company 1975 a month. The client was promised title and content optimization changes, which were done. Monthly reports (one was received since August when the contract began.)

The client is upset, and feels as if she's been taken for a ride. I've looked over the contract, and there is no promise of results however they've done as promised. She has received only 4 leads in the 6 months they have managed her account.

What are her options from here?

[mikesmith76]

if they've done exactly as they promised then she can't really complain. I know she may be frustrated by the lack of results ranking wise but that should've been listed in the original contract. just have to chalk it down as experience and move on

[JuniorOnline]

what was promised in the contract? and what is the comparison between the before and after the SEO was done in terms of new visitors?

[dburdon]

Let the buyer beware. The client could have checked out work done for existing clients.

I come across potential clients all the time that tell me they're paying for optimisation. One client had paid out £4,000 ($7,000). On checking the site I saw no evidence that the site had received the tiniest amount of optimisation. When I pointed this out, the client contacted the incumbent SEO provider. The client was told that they what they had payed for was "professional advice". Actual executional SEO would cost an additional £1,000 ($1,750) per month. The client stuck with the incumbent SEO on the basis of reputation rather than results.

[JuniorOnline]

that is so frustrating for the clients. Some optimisation companies are giving SEO'rs a bad name...

[bhartzer]

The former company they hired (a major SEO company) has produced a minimal amount of results.

It sounds like it's time to look for another SEO firm.

[ppanwar]

I have personally experienced that. When I launched Go4outsourcing.com, the contract was given to one company to optimize the website.In 5 months, only meta tags and keywords were added. No links were exchanged.

Now finally, I have the right service provider who is optimizing it good.

I personally think no one can guarantee top 10 position. Some of them ask for 50% advance with no results.

[brian.mark]

We tried outsourcing for a while while I was busy. We saw next to no results for our $1800/month. We've moved SEO back in house.

I've heard of a company paying $15,000 US per month that got absolutely nothing for their money. They were told, as they were leaving that major firm, that the reason they didn't rank well was the lousy content. Looking at the site, the content was fine. They had no IBL's, duplicate title tags through the entire site, no headings, and no real SEO that I could tell.

The biggest problem with many SEO firms, from my experience anyway, is the lack of understanding of what really effects the bottom line. Sure, more traffic is great. However, it has to be for phrases that actually drive business. For example, "power tools" isn't a good phrase for our site. We ranked for that for a while and saw more searches for kai and other software than I care to think about, especially since we have some job costing software that we sell. "air tools" is a bit better, but still not all that targeted. "Roofing coil nailers" is a very good phrase for us, but our SEO firm didn't suggest that as a potential phrase.

Unless there is something specific in the contract, which most reputable firms will not put in a contract, I don't think there is any recourse. You can't breach a contract that doesn't make any claims.

Brian.

[dburdon]

Originally Posted by brian.mark

We tried outsourcing for a while while I was busy. We saw next to no results for our $1800/month. ..........

The biggest problem with many SEO firms, from my experience anyway, is the lack of understanding of what really effects the bottom line. Sure, more traffic is great. However, it has to be for phrases that actually drive business.

Brian,
excellent point. There's probably more bad SEO out there, than bad public relations or bad advertising. Funnily enough its sometimes the same companies doing the bad advertising that have moved into SEO. They think SEO is the latest fad and open up a SEO account team with no real expertise.

[nashville]

We outsourced SEO a couple times and will never do it again. A big rip off.

The problem is that an SEO company can do eveything they promised and still a customer may not see results.

This is just something better done in house.

[SPC2]

Originally Posted by JuniorOnline

that is so frustrating for the clients. Some optimisation companies are giving SEO'rs a bad name...

And vice versa. Don't forget that it's often the clients who are in the wrong. dburdon's example sounds like an example of the client expecting more than he had actually paid for.

People often expect things that they have no reasonable grounds to expect. It's not uncommon for webiste owners to expect top rankings just because their new sites exist, and they turn on someone else when it doesn't happen. I was involved in a case where the site designer was taken to court because the customer's site didn't rank highly for his searchterms, but the agreement was that the designer would submit the site to the engines when the site was completed, and that's all. The customer lost, of course. (My involvement was on the independant expert side.)

I know that there are bad SEOs out there, but don't forget that there are many many more bad clients who complain that they paid goodness knows how much without seeing much in the way of success, when they knew that success wasn't guaranteed, etc. It's not only some SEOs that give the seo industry a bad name - it's also bad clients.

In dburdon's example, it sounds like a bad client. He must have known that no changes were made to the site, and if he really expected changes that produce rankings, and not just advice, then he should have discussed it with the SEO and not complained about the lack of success to someone else. So it doesn't surprise me that he stayed with the original SEO, because he knew what he'd paid for all along, and he had no real complaints. £4000 sounds a bit steep for advice, though, but we haven't been told what the advice consisted of. It could have been on-site staff training, for instance.

[nashville]

SPC2,

You are so right! The problem is that clients do not know how much time this takes. It is very labor intensive. It even takes way too much time to even deliver a quote in my opinion.

Between the high cost of doing this, and the fact that there are no promises of results, it just is better done in house. Because then the purchaser of the service can see that work is being done and was done and the results still did not happen.

I think this is why so many senior SEO people have gone to seminars and teaching classes - sell the knowledge and make the client do all the grunt work.

Just my two cents worth. Someone called me one time to ask how much to pay for SEO and I said anyting less that $5,000 forget it. It just takes too much time.

[Steven1976a]

I agree that the client can to be blame a lot of the time. The bottom line is they probably know little about how sites are ranked and therefore they pay someone they believe will get them highly ranked. For the customer they may believe that once they pay then that is it and they expect not to have any input apart from money.

From personal experience I helped someone who paid me an initial amount, but little did i know that i would constantly be chasing them for them to finalise key words or just basically anything to do with the project.

I think unless companies are paying loads of money to a project and a monthly retainer then most of the time its a lot of hard work for the SEO as the customer will always expect NO.1

[Steven1976a]

I agree that the client can to be blame a lot of the time. The bottom line is they probably know little about how sites are ranked and therefore they pay someone they believe will get them highly ranked. For the customer they may believe that once they pay then that is it and they expect not to have any input apart from money.

From personal experience I helped someone who paid me an initial amount, but little did i know that i would constantly be chasing them for them to finalise key words or just basically anything to do with the project.

I think unless companies are paying loads of money to a project and a monthly retainer then most of the time its a lot of hard work for the SEO as the customer will always expect NO.1

[flanok]

The whole purpose of drawing up Contracts are to clarify any confusion about what the client is paying for. In this instance she got exactly what she signed for.
Whithin your clients business plan there should have been a minimum base visitor rate or rankings to satisfy the business plan, and that should have been discussed with the SEO company and agreed then written in, prior to the contract being signed.

Signing a contract that says we will optomise your website with no measure of results, will only bring bad results.
Mark

[brian.mark]

Originally Posted by flanok

The whole purpose of drawing up Contracts are to clarify any confusion about what the client is paying for. In this instance she got exactly what she signed for.
Whithin your clients business plan there should have been a minimum base visitor rate or rankings to satisfy the business plan, and that should have been discussed with the SEO company and agreed then written in, prior to the contract being signed.

Signing a contract that says we will optomise your website with no measure of results, will only bring bad results.
Mark

Great in theory, but tough in practice - especially when the client is doing the updating of the site. Anyone that guarantees results makes me run the other way, and very fast.

Brian.

[williamc]

Brian, I agree. The only time you should listen to any guarantees is when the optimizer is working on a pay for performance deal. Then they have everything to lose and the business owner has everything to gain. Very few of us are actually confident enough in ourselves to work this way tho.

[flanok]

Hi,
My point wasn't to get guarantees for the desired result but to get a safety net for a minimum result.Even if the SEO set the goals.

However if your client is updating the site as well then the SEO was assisting with the site rather than taking control of it and wouldn't be able to promise anything except assistance.
Mark

[writergrrrl48]

OK, I'm just wondering how to find clients WILLING to pay $1800 per month for SEO !!!!

Most of the people I've encountered don't want to spend a dime on their sites ...

Guess I need some major marketing help to find the right people :-)

[williamc]

The trick is not to find them, but to have them come looking for you. Those are the ones who can afford you and already know what your fees are.

[brian.mark]

Personally, if we could see results that warranted it I'd be willing to pay $5k - $10k per month. But, as discussed earlier, anyone with guaranteed results, which it would almost take to make that amount worthwhile, sends me running.

In house, it's costing us more than that already, but we see results and know exactly what our goals are and the value we receive from attaining those goals.

Brian.

[williamc]

Originally Posted by brian.mark

Personally, if we could see results that warranted it I'd be willing to pay $5k - $10k per month.

Exactly why I do pfp. People see results then all of a sudden the size of my fee does not matter much anymore to them.

[seoqueen]

The blame falls on both the clients and the SEO firms.

Some firms may not have all the answers to optimizations (the ever so often algo changes) while others are working on trial and error.

Some clients are knowledgeable about SEO and others have no clue.

Some SEO firms work very hard to educate their clients and what is expected in the coming days of the process. A time consuming process…whilst most clients expect miracles overnight…

Some clients become unresponsive and don’t work with the firm to help achieve their ideal goals.

Yes there are tons of bad SEO firms out there and there are good ones that live up to their contracts.

From my experience and in my humble opinion, I point the blame to most clients. If a firm explains that certain keywords are too competitive, then work baby steps to achieve those rankings and work in those competitive words later. If your site design was rated poorly then it's time to revamp the site. If you don’t have enough content to support your keywords add more content. A majority of the time it’s the client working against the firm. Clients don’t want to revamp or add more content so what is the SEO firm to blame for?

Good SEO firms can bring you traffic but the bottom line….they can’t make someone buy something or fill out a form it’s up to the client. SEO firms can’t tell a client your prices are too high how about lowering them and you just might make a sale or you have way too many text boxes on your form cut down on the information. It can go on and on.

If a client is not working with the firm then it falls back on the client.

If all SEO firms knew how it really works then we all wouldn't be having these conversations.

Here are a few tips on looking for a reputable firm, big name clients, testimonials, results from those clients and a phone call to those clients regarding the firm...

Again, just my 2 cents.

Seoqueen

[seoqueen]

The blame falls on both the clients and the SEO firms.

Some firms may not have all the answers to optimizations (the ever so often algo changes) while others are working on trial and error.

Some clients are knowledgeable about SEO and others have no clue.

Some SEO firms work very hard to educate their clients and what is expected in the coming days of the process. A time consuming process…whilst most clients expect miracles overnight…

Some clients become unresponsive and don’t work with the firm to help achieve their ideal goals.

Yes there are tons of bad SEO firms out there and there are good ones that live up to their contracts.

From my experience and in my humble opinion, I point the blame to most clients. If a firm explains that certain keywords are too competitive, then work baby steps to achieve those rankings and work in those competitive words later. If your site design was rated poorly then it's time to revamp the site. If you don’t have enough content to support your keywords add more content. A majority of the time it’s the client working against the firm. Clients don’t want to revamp or add more content so what is the SEO firm to blame for?

Good SEO firms can bring you traffic but the bottom line….they can’t make someone buy something or fill out a form it’s up to the client. SEO firms can’t tell a client your prices are too high how about lowering them and you just might make a sale or you have way too many text boxes on your form cut down on the information. It can go on and on.

If a client is not working with the firm then it falls back on the client.

If all SEO firms knew how it really works then we all wouldn't be having these conversations.

Here are a few tips on looking for a reputable firm, big name clients, testimonials, results from those clients and a phone call to those clients regarding the firm...

Again, just my 2 cents.

Seoqueen

[Mel]

This is a problem that can cut both ways and IMO every SEO client should insist on a contract which clearly explains what is to be done, what the price is, what the keywords are to be optimized for and what results to expect.

Its often said that you cannot guarantee results, but you can guarantee that out of say ten agreed keywords you will get top five rankings for three of then on google, Yahoo or MSN. This is not much of a gurantee but it does seem to satisfy most customers.


SEOs can occasionally get the odd Client From Hell too. Some time ago I signed up a client for a minimal amount to optimize his site and provide a new page template to upgrade the look of the site. After 1800 emails were exchanged, four different page designs were done and 90 pages optimized and uploaded in the new template the client decided that he would only use 39 of them, had the content rewritten by a "marketing expert" and then complained that the site was not ranking well even though it was #1 and #2 in all three major search engines for the three highest traffic keywords agreed to and in total had twelve first place rankings (on the major search engines) and 72 top five rankings for the keywords agreed.

[seoqueen]

Originally Posted by Mel

This is a problem that can cut both ways and IMO every SEO client should insist on a contract which clearly explains what is to be done, what the price is, what the keywords are to be optimized for and what results to expect.

Totally agree with you on this one.

Its often said that you cannot guarantee results, but you can guarantee that out of say ten agreed keywords you will get top five rankings for three of then on google, Yahoo or MSN. This is not much of a gurantee but it does seem to satisfy most customers.

I'm good if there was a guarantee on deliverables and service. Realistically, cannot always get a site in the top 5 on the major search engines especially if the site is new or has no link pop and working with a highly competitive keyword. In a mimimal amount of time. Unless, you tend to do a little unethical seo. Be aware, some SEO's will tend to give countless keywords to meet that guarantee if the client is uneducated.

Good points Mel

Seoqueen

[Mel]

I always consider anchor text links as a basic part of any SEO campaign.