Search Engine Submission-A Waste or Not?

[gossman]

Search Engine Submission-A Waste or Not?

By Jeremy Gossman of audioplayerpro.com

There is really only one search engine to bother
submitting to, and that is Google. You should only
submit one page-your main page-once and maybe a sitemap
a week later. Never submit more than one time a week.
If you have a link coming to your new site from a site
that is currently listed in Google, Google will find you
quicker.

Most importantly, search engines that have any bearing
will find you as long as Google has you listed. That's
not to say that there aren't any other worthwhile search
engines. Google just happens to be the most effective.
If you have a non-commercial web site you will want to
look into DMOZ for a separate submission.

So don't pay for directory submission. Many directories
will bring you no traffic at all.

So, what's the #1 tip to getting into Google? Get people
to link to your site, particularly links from sites
that are already in Google.

Important Note:
The more links that you have going OUT from your site
will effect your page rank with Google in a negative way. The
more links coming in will help your page rank. If you
have the highest page rank for a particular key word
you win!

-----------------------------------------
Jeremy Gossman is an internet marketer and consultant
that has several ventures online. You can learn more
about Jeremy's latest project and subscribe to a
free mini-course by visiting:
http://www.audioplayerpro.com

(c)2003 Audioplayerpro.com. All rights reserved.

[Mel]

There is really only one search engine to bother
submitting to, and that is Google.

Yes that is true today but may not be true next month. If/when Yahoo changes to Inktomi as its results provider, the search market share of Google and Inktomi will be similar.

Better prepare for Inktomi rankings now.

[TaoOfSearch]

An ancient philosopher has said: you cannot cross a river twice. Meaning - things keep changing. Lesson - never stop looking for new alternatives. Next **hoo or G***le is small and moving up now.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by gossman

If you have a non-commercial web site you will want to
look into DMOZ for a separate submission.

I would word this differently -- while it' s true DMOZ in not about "commercialism" tons of commercial sites get listed daily. If you have relevant content to a specific category topic, a unique perspective of a topic, or a vast amount of information (research value) you should always submit to DMOZ

So don't pay for directory submission. Many directories will bring you no traffic at all.

The value of directory submissions is more than direct residual traffic. Guidelines: If a directory has a category for you, has links in/out and charges a small fee to list -- pay if you can afford to. I wouldn't spend my last $10.00 dollars on this - but if I have some marketing budget remaining - I would always submit. Some listings are lifetime (however long the directory remains as is) while others can be monthly or yearly - the premium is small enough that if you truly get "nothing" - you wasted little. More often than not - you gain -- "something" - just make sure the placement makes sense.

Important Note:
The more links that you have going OUT from your site
will effect your page rank with Google in a negative way. The
more links coming in will help your page rank. If you
have the highest page rank for a particular key word
you win!

PageRank is but 1 of 100 requirements to "win", and although it is true that outgoing links move PageRank "off-site" there is an inherent disadvantage for "not linking out".... the loss of about 10 of those other requirements to "win"... thus you are losing.

You can't attempt to rank well -- without dealing with tradeoffs, and balancing all best practices - not just a few.

[Mel]

...Important Note:
The more links that you have going OUT from your site
will effect your page rank with Google in a negative way. The
more links coming in will help your page rank. If you
have the highest page rank for a particular key word
you win!

Sorry but I just have to set this straight:

Outgoing links from your website have absolutely no effect on your PageRank which is only calculated from inbound linnks. You are probably thinking about the idea that if your want to maximize the contributions of your own pages to your PageRank you need to be careful how you link out.

Having a high pagerank is not a guarantee that you will rank high for any particular keyword, as Fathom said it is one out of perhaps a hundred factors that affect your rankings, and is not the most important.

[gossman]

You are probably thinking about the idea that if your want to maximize the contributions of your own pages to your PageRank you need to be careful how you link out.

Right, the page rank that is given to outbound links is split between all outbound links on the page. What I have heard is that 85% of a particular pages PR is given to the outbound link. So if there were two outbound links it would be half of that per link. But that in no way effects the page that has the outbound links.

The more links coming in will help your page rank. Even links from your site to other pages on your site will boost each others page rank.

Having the proper key words that you are targeting on your web page is important for getting listed for those target key words.

To have excellent search engine placement you need links that bring the most page rank with accurate anchor text. This is something I learned from Sean Burns.

The value of directory submissions is more than direct residual traffic. Guidelines: If a directory has a category for you, has links in/out and charges a small fee to list -- pay if you can afford to. I wouldn't spend my last $10.00 dollars on this - but if I have some marketing budget remaining - I would always submit. Some listings are lifetime (however long the directory remains as is) while others can be monthly or yearly - the premium is small enough that if you truly get "nothing" - you wasted little. More often than not - you gain -- "something" - just make sure the placement makes sense.

There are other ways to get your link listed on sites that don't cost you money. But I was referring to using companies that say they will submit your site to all kinds of directories/ search engines. People should not waste their time with that.

Thanks for all the commnets and Mel it should be interesting when Yahoo takes on inktomi's results.

Best Regards,
Jeremy Gossman

Web Site audio that can easily generate you a boat load of cash
http://www.audioplayerpro.com

[jwm5411]

Two Questions regarding directory submissions:
I've submitted to the Yahoo! directory and have been accepted. What are the other directories that you guys would recommend?

I've also submitted to DMOZ, but I can't get picked up. I do have a commercial site, but I see other commercial sites listed in my category...what's the trick? Do you have to be an editor for DMOZ.

Thanks

[Mel]

Hi John;
DMOZ can be very time consuming to get into but well worth the wait, as the listing are copied in many other sites, most notabley Google directory.

Some points to take into consideration when asking for a listing at DMOZ;

First make sure your site meets all the rules for inclusion.

Make 1000% sure you are asking to be listed in the correct category. Verify this by doing DMOZ searches for your prime keywords and make sure that the category you choose is the one where most of your competitors have been successful in getting listed.

Insure that you write a title and description that serves to describe accurately what products or services users can find on your site. Dont't use superlatives or mention price or value. Look at the other descriptions in your category and use them as guides, but differentiate yourself if possible. Make doubly sure that all your spelling, punctuation and grammer are perfect.

Wait at least two months before you query the category editor (or the next editor up if none is listed in your category) about your listing.

Do not resubmit, at least not yet. If you don't get a reply from the editor within two weeks go to htp://www.resource-zone.com and post there inquiring about your site submission. Many DMOZ editors there can check the status of your submission and possbibly help it along. Follow their instructions.

Remember that you can get two DMOZ listings one for the product or service category and another for the geographic category appripriat to your site.

As for other directories, Goguides. Joeant for sure, then search for directories which accept submissions for sites like yours.

[dmcgill]

Originally Posted by gossman

Search Engine Submission-A Waste or Not?

By Jeremy Gossman of audioplayerpro.com

There is really only one search engine to bother
submitting to, and that is Google. You should only
submit one page-your main page-once and maybe a sitemap
a week later. Never submit more than one time a week.
If you have a link coming to your new site from a site
that is currently listed in Google, Google will find you
quicker.

Most importantly, search engines that have any bearing
will find you as long as Google has you listed. That's
not to say that there aren't any other worthwhile search
engines. Google just happens to be the most effective.
If you have a non-commercial web site you will want to
look into DMOZ for a separate submission.

So don't pay for directory submission. Many directories
will bring you no traffic at all.

So, what's the #1 tip to getting into Google? Get people
to link to your site, particularly links from sites
that are already in Google.

Important Note:
The more links that you have going OUT from your site
will effect your page rank with Google in a negative way. The
more links coming in will help your page rank. If you
have the highest page rank for a particular key word
you win!

-----------------------------------------
Jeremy Gossman is an internet marketer and consultant
that has several ventures online. You can learn more
about Jeremy's latest project and subscribe to a
free mini-course by visiting:
http://www.audioplayerpro.com

(c)2003 Audioplayerpro.com. All rights reserved.

I find this very interesting since I own two directories and we get an average of 39,000 searches every single day.

You are welcome to your opinion but another way directories help sites is that often our directories get crawles and when I have searched in Google, google has returned a link from www.webworldindex.com with the description, keywords and link to a site matching the search results. I have ranked the site and found that if it were not listed in Web World Index, it wouldn't have showed at all so in a way, Google pulled that listing from me.

[cbp]

I have just re-read this thread more carefully:

Important Note:
The more links that you have going OUT from your site
will effect your page rank with Google in a negative way

If this is true, why does DMOZ have a PR of 9 and not a PR of 0 because of its 4 million outgoing links (there are ~300 000 incoming) ????

CBP

[rambodog]

I can't imagine outbound links are negative in any way (legitimate links, not links to link farms etc.)

[seafoam]

If this is true, why does DMOZ have a PR of 9 and not a PR of 0 because of its 4 million outgoing links (there are ~300 000 incoming) ????

You have to take into consideration where the PR is being leaked from. By the time you get deep into the directory, you will find the pages with lots of outgoing links have something like PR4. But even those pages are passing PR back to the home page, and each level of directory above it. So it could never loose all its PR.

Also consider the PR of some of the 309,000 pages linking to the DMOZ homepage. Many of these are going to be high PR sites, typically all the search engines that use DMOZ results, including Google itself.

The other factor that large sites naturally self-generate large PR, and it looks to me like dmoz has 333,000 pages (Google for ~dmoz site:dmoz.org~)

[cbp]

You have to take into consideration where the PR is being leaked from

Here we go again. Why does this leakage thing keep coming up.

Lets start by avoiding confusion over terminology as every time this discussion comes up the debates often occur as we are debating different things:

1. If page A with a certain PR links to another page B, it PASSES PR. The PR given to B is always less than the PR that A has - and will be even less if there are a lot of links on A to other sites (some call this LEAKAGE) --> this has nothing to do with the link out reducing page A's PR

2. If page A with a certain PR has lots of outgoing links, the number of outgoing links do not reduce the PR of page A (some call this LEAKAGE, but its a myth).

3. PR is a mathematical function of the links coming into a site (nothing to do with outgoing links) --> there is no LEAKAGE (reduction of PR of the page due to links out)

Last year when I had a similar debate re this I did several experiments. One of my links pages has PR4 and 100 outgoing links. I deleted all the links. It stayed at PR4 for 2 PR updates. I replaced all the links. It has stayed at PR4 for 1 PR update. The number of outgoing links did not affect PR

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

CBP

[seafoam]

I pretty much agree with you. I think of leakage as PR which is passed to another site, rather than to pages in the same site.

1. If page A with a certain PR links to another page B, it PASSES PR. The PR given to B is always less than the PR that A has - and will be even less if there are a lot of links on A to other sites (some call this LEAKAGE) --> this has nothing to do with the link out reducing page A's PR

Page A will not loose any PR directly, BUT, in passing PR to another site, it can't return as much to the other pages on its own site. So the total PR in the site will be reduced. The other pages on the site will therefore not be able to pass so much PR to page A. So it will loose some, but only indirectly, and a very small amount!

See http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/ and compare Examples 2 and 5. But that is a tiny site with very little PR and the effect would be much reduced in a real site of any size.

2. If page A with a certain PR has lots of outgoing links, the number of outgoing links do not reduce the PR of page A (some call this LEAKAGE, but its a myth).

Ditto. Just a little bit more.

Last year when I had a similar debate re this I did several experiments. One of my links pages has PR4 and 100 outgoing links. I deleted all the links. It stayed at PR4 for 2 PR updates. I replaced all the links. It has stayed at PR4 for 1 PR update. The number of outgoing links did not affect PR

I wouldn't expect to notice any change on the links page, unless it only barely qualified for a PR4, especially if the site is of any size. The internal navigational structure will act as a buffer. I would say that the site as a whole would have lost a very small amount of PR everywhere, but not enough to be noticeable by the toolbar. I think you would have to do the experiment on a smaller site with a carefully designed navigational structure for the loss to be noticeable.

So I agree, in practical terms, it is not a disaster to have external links on a page. It won't directly reduce that pages' PR, and the indirect effect is going to be negligible.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by cbp

Here we go again. Why does this leakage thing keep coming up.

Lets start by avoiding confusion over terminology as every time this discussion comes up the debates often occur as we are debating different things:

1. If page A with a certain PR links to another page B, it PASSES PR. The PR given to B is always less than the PR that A has - and will be even less if there are a lot of links on A to other sites (some call this LEAKAGE) --> this has nothing to do with the link out reducing page A's PR

2. If page A with a certain PR has lots of outgoing links, the number of outgoing links do not reduce the PR of page A (some call this LEAKAGE, but its a myth).

3. PR is a mathematical function of the links coming into a site (nothing to do with outgoing links) --> there is no LEAKAGE (reduction of PR of the page due to links out)

Last year when I had a similar debate re this I did several experiments. One of my links pages has PR4 and 100 outgoing links. I deleted all the links. It stayed at PR4 for 2 PR updates. I replaced all the links. It has stayed at PR4 for 1 PR update. The number of outgoing links did not affect PR

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

CBP

Hi CBP I agree with you that in order to discuss PageRank intelligently you have to understand the terms you are using and the first one that needs to be understood is PageRank.

True PageRank is a secret number that Google assigns to a page.No one (outside of Google) really knows what it is or even what range it may be in. This is the number google uses in its calculations not toolbar PR.

ToolBar PageRank is totally different animal, that assigns a range of PR to a particular box and gives that box a label from 1 to 10. There is no way that these labels can be used intelligently in any mathmatical calcualations since they are not numbers they are labels.

Thus when you say that your PR did not change you have absolutely no way of knowing that, what you should be saying is that the pages PR is still within the range assigned to a particular Toolbar PR label. This can cover a large range of actual PR .

I agree that there is no such thing as leakage of PR, since the PR formula has no negative terms only positive, and at any rate only takes into account inbound links not outbound.

PR and toolbar PR are not the same.

There is no such thing as leakage.

Where this misconception starts is when people see the toolbar PR (TPR) of a page changing when they link out from a page which is both gives and receives PR contributions from other pages within the site. If this interlinking of internal pages is not done intelligently the PR of all pages will be less than it would othewise be with external links affecting the PR of the internal pages which are passing PR to the page and thus that page will receive less PR from internal pages.

Only if a page does not link back to the other pages in a site (very very few of those in existance) does the number of outbound links have no effect on the PR of other pages in the site.

[vilesilencer]

There is really only one search engine to bother
submitting to, and that is Google.

Your wrong. And what a HUGE mistake it would be if people only submitted to Google.

Whilst submitting to Google and DMOZ will provide you with a wealth of traffic, the rest of the field combined would contribute at least as much traffic if not more.

Of course, you have to weigh up paid versus free placement. Also, many sites spiders pick up websites regardless of wether you have submitted them to the search engine or not. Case in point, I never submitted my site to google, but the bot visits the site 20 times a day on average (all different IPs) and my site sits at number 1 (and sometimes ALL top 3 spots) for the keywords that I want it to.

Having said that, I do get a tonne of traffic from a whole host of smaller search engines (all free to submit to) that if I hadnt submitted to I wouldn't have had the traffic.

I urge everyone to submit their home/index page once to any free-to-submit search engine they come across, it might not change the world but I bet you, your traffic will pick up.