Went from #3 to Page #3 on MSN after using Axandra's IBP

DEone · #1 (**permalink**) 08-30-2005, 08:36 PM

Hey everyone

I'm new to the forum (and SEO in general) and it seems like this is the perfect place to get a little advice.

I've had some good success with search terms for my website, but it seems whenever I try to optimize a page, it has an adverse effect.

My website was the 3rd ranked site for the search phrase adopt a dog on MSN's search engine.

I purchased Axandra's IBP8 in order to further optimize my site for this and other keywords and phrases.

After exhuastingly working with IBP, my site is highly optimized for all of the keywords I desire (at least, according to the IBP reports)...

Problem is, since following the program's suggestions, my site has all but disappeared for certain keywords and phrases, adopt a dog being the most frustrating.

I know I need to be patient for my changes to be indexed, but my question is:

How do I know when it's time to make adjustments to page content and resubmit versus when I should be more patient and wait to see if the search engine re-indexes my site? How do I know when my content changes have been 'noticed' by the search engine?

And if I do need to make adjustments and resubmit, what do I do if IBP tells me my site is perfectly optimized? It seems the most success I've had is when I'm not really trying to optimize the site at all... that's nuts!

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Chris

greeneagle · #2 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 05:14 AM

Welcome aboard WPW ccrooke.

I am pretty direct, so don't get your feelings hurt. Let's see if we can help you:

Your site took 28 seconds to download thru my DSL.

Somewhat graphics heavy but not there – server issues?

Navigation javascript? No text feed-thru! You need to add textural links thru to the rest of the site. It can be done nonobtrusively at the bottom of each page.

No doc type listed and there is a confusing character code issue for SE parsing from the start, compounded by 52 code errors on the home page.

Reviewing your code:
<title>Dog Training, dog pictures, & everything else - Pupforum.com</title>

“& everything else” doesn’t get you anywhere here – Wasted Space! You are primarily optimized in your most important SE real estate for “Dog Training” not “adopt a dog”!

You are also primarily optimized in your keyword metatags for “Dog Training”:
<meta name="keywords" CONTENT="dog training, dog forum, dog pictures, dog training, dog obedience, adopt a dog, dog, adoption, rescue, dog pics, forum, dog trainer, vet, puppy, dog toys, dog leashes">

“adopt a dog” is way down the list here!

<meta name="description" CONTENT="Pupforum is a place to share dog pictures, search adoptable dogs, find dog training information and chat with other dog owners in a dog forum.">

If you wanted to channel the SEs to place the phrase “adopt a dog” highly here it might read:

<meta name="description" CONTENT="Adopt a dog, share dog pictures, find dog training information and chat with other dog owners at Pupforum.">

There is nothing optimized about your site at all. You shouldn’t expect to be listed highly for “adopt a dog” as is.

Here is what you are optimized for:

Single word keyphrases:

Terrier; 34x 7.07 %
Forum; 26x 5.41 %
Trainer; 17x 3.53 %
Hound; 16x 3.33 %
Pupforum; 16x 3.33 %

2 word keyphrases:

bull terrier
sign login
adoptable dogs
font size
training pictures

3 word keyphrases:

training pictures pupforum
submit questions trainer
sign login upload
font family arial

You have quite a bit of work to do on Title and metatags wording, feature placement on the page and adcopy writing. They must be aligned to command the SEs where you want them to go!

None of the keyphrases are optimized at an “optimal” strength of 12% density. In fact the 3 word phrases were so weak that a 5th didn’t even show up.

Channel the logic – All the elements must work together!

I have yet to see any IBP report that helps much. Not sure what the current craze is all about!

I hope this helps,

Ken

**ctabuk** · #3 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 05:54 AM

Maybe that's because you have not asked yet Ken.

IBP is not the 'means to an end' it is superb peice of software that shows you where your site is positioned in the search engines and it lists all of your competitors.

It affords you the opportunity to see the results or failings of your hard work.

As one Mod to another I'll do yours and post it here if you like? Your decision.

greeneagle · #4 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 07:07 AM

I appreciate your offer David, but I don't even have time to worry about my site or traffic right now!

I am swamped in SEM work right now... and yes that's even in lieu of falling from a PR5 to a 4 last update due to my dead link issues and more...

Believe me, I know where I am setting!

Clients come first!

Ken

wrmineo · #5 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 07:30 AM

No offense, but I would infer that you did not use the IBP report to its fullest extent AND it is only as effective as the information you give it as well as will only perform to the level of efficacy you seek when you optimize within the parameters acceptable to your end goal ...

As greeneagle pointed out, you cannot optimize for "adopt a dog" and then not have that keyword phrase strategically placed in key elements and places throughout your site.

Your metas are excessive and most unnecessary.

IMO - all of these should/could go.

Quote:

This tag is redundant:

Quote:

as this one serves this purpose already:

Quote:

The heavy js all in the <head> is a big stopper too IMO.

You're also creating an error most site owners do - your sitename need NOT be in your title, description or keywords; as it is not a "dictionary" recognizeable word(s) it is merely convoluting your potential results IMO.

Some of your images have duplicate ids = bad.
Most of your images have no alt-text = bad.
Some of your images have duplicate specification = bad.
None of your tables have ids or summary = not helpful.
Your entire page is without headings/emphasis = not helpful.

Before you blame IBP, MSN or anyone else, it would be wise to do a little housekeeping.

greeneagle · #6 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

"You're also creating an error most site owners do - your sitename need NOT be in your title.."

You couldn't be any more "dead-on" there Rob. It is an easy mistake to make, I did so myself at the start. The facts are though - most people are just not going to generically search for your company name unless you are well branded!

Top keyphrases first here PERIOD!

Ken

**ctabuk** · #7 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greeneagle

I appreciate your offer David, but I don't even have time to worry about my site or traffic right now!

I am swamped in SEM work right now... and yes that's even in lieu of falling from a PR5 to a 4 last update due to my dead link issues and more...

Believe me, I know where I am setting!

Clients come first!

Ken

Ken you did say that you have not yet seen an IBP Report so it's only fair that you see one to comment on, after all good buddy you can never have enough information, that's what you always tell everyone. I'll do one for free, no problemo, my pleasure. David

greeneagle · #8 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 08:31 AM

David,
If you remember, I rcvd one from you before...

Seriously, Thanks, but I have no time to tend my own site just now!

Why don't we see how you can help a first time poster here:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=51600
instead?

I prefer my own methods and approach.

In fact, why don't we work the site I mentioned above together and do some real good?

I don't believe I need the help that many of the first time posters are coming on here with. They are presenting gruesome messes right and left. Where I need help is in reviewing the many new posters that are coming on board that are asking for help!

That's all I have time for right now outside my own clients.

You and Rob's help there would be greatly appreciated, along with anyone else that wants to contribute!

I just don't need an IBP of any kind right now, because I know where I am at...surely you can appreciate my position there.

Your efforts would be better placed helping the flood of new members coming on here at WPW!!!!

Thanks again,

Ken

**ctabuk** · #9 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 08:40 AM

Sorry Ken, while you were writing your post I was doing a full IBP on your main keywords 'Customn Website Design' - I have e-mailed you the full top 100 pages report and a list of your competitors. But it's up to you if you don't want to post the results, I won't post them. Your decision.

greeneagle · #10 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 09:10 AM

Thanks David,

I'll have a look at it.

Back on topic here:

ccrooke (thread owner) could use some help here.

Let's see what an IBP report can do here, for him.

Post it publicly and let's see what it has to offer.

He really needs the help.

You guys need to make sure and break it down for him!

There is probably no better agenda to evaluate the value of the IBP tool you are presenting than right here for this first time poster.

He is in dire straits and needs help!

I am sure he is open to a competitive IBP report that could superceed the one he purchased and used to little avail!

Let's see where it goes!

Ken

**ctabuk** · #11 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 10:05 AM

Posted to Ken for publication and discussion

www.counciltenantsmortgages.co.uk

DEone · #12 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 10:09 AM

Wow!

I knew I'd get some good advice...

Lots to take in...

One thing I wasn't clear about is that I have different meta tags for different pages.

The page optimized for adopt a dog is here:

http://www.pupforum.com/adoptadog/index.cfm

Also, is the page loading slow for everyone? I've known the site isn't a screamer as far as speed but I've never seen a page take 28 seconds to download, even on DSL... I'm hoping that our hosting service (HostMySite) was having server problems when you tried to view the page... I experienced 10 minutes yesterday myself where the pages were slow loading.. it wasn't the norm

I'm going to take the day and read through the rest of the good advice here and make the changes as needed.

I'm sure I'll have a million questions as I go.

Here's one for now:

despite the fact that I obviously have some problems throughout the site, the link above was still listed at #3 for a month or two on MSN... even with the problems that you've all listed. Do you think there could be other factors affecting my ranking?

I'm going to get to work studying these replies and making changes.

I'll also post my IBP report later today.

Thanks so much for the advice

you guys are the best!

chris

wrmineo · #13 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 10:29 AM

First off, no offense to MSN or your site, but their results are still "in flux" at best as they are working out their search engine, tweaking the algos, etc. ... your site's rank was more likely a fluke than an organic, deserved result.

I had no problems loading your page - could have been a temporary issue from your webhost at the time greeneagle tried to access, or even an ISP problem at his end during that time. Removing the unnecessary code and reducing your page/file size would nonetheless be a plus; taking your page from 50+kb down a bit would be nice - much of that IMO is from code you don't need.

If your host is lagging or lacking, don't be afraid to put them on the spot - ask for compensation for their errors. If my site is down for a single minute, I'm raising all kinds of grief with my host and it more than often results in a free month of hosting knocked off my recurring bill :)

greeneagle · #14 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 10:29 AM

ccrooke,

David sent me the IBP report. I apoligize here... I did not pay enough attention to previous emails from David to know that it was the same IBP software source that seemed to fail for you. I assumed it was a different software.

David sent me your latest, which we can post if you want me to, but it might be better if you just broke down in simple terms what you did (changed) that didn't work..... in your own words.

Hopefully, we can help get you back to where you were. There is no guarantee there, the algs are constantly changing.

Please make sure and continue to act on the other "manual" observations until we sort this out.

I have never been a fan of any type of "Automated SEO" because IMO - Every case demands a custom approach and the algs are constantly changing, rendering automated softwares immediately obsolete.

I don't hardly know just where to go here now! We can't call the software "bad" without sufficient trial and error. It could have easily been in misappropiated suggestion implementation.

Let's just start over here with what you did that seemed to instigate negative effect per the software's recommendation.

Did you by any chance save a pre-edit copy in case you needed to make an "instant" recovery in the SERPs? That is a good practice that I recommend everyone taking before implementing serious SEO based alterations!

Let's get on, see what happened (if possible) and more importantly, determine where we need to go!

Ken

DEone · #15 (**permalink**) 08-31-2005, 01:13 PM

ok....

just to clarify, the page that I'm trying to optimize for adopt a dog is: http://www.pupforum.com/adoptadog/index.cfm

I should have been more clear in my first post...

wrmineo:
no offense taken.. I know that I have a ton to learn. but I'm definitely not blaming the software or MSN. I know that my SE placement is completely due to my own mistakes. my assumption with IBP is that I'm not using it correctly or I'm misinterpreting the reports and that I don't fully understand what MSN is looking for.

I definitely see the value in the IBP application and think I just need more experience to get the most out of it.

anyway, I've removed the meta tags you listed and am aware the JavaScript code is too much. I will certainly remove the extra functions from the header and place them only on the pages they are needed. but that will take a little time so I'm gonna do that last...

and I think ill have my girlfriend call the hosting service and complain... she can be a handful when she gets going!

regarding the img tags: duplicate ids are easy enough to fix. before using IBP, all of the imgs had alt tags but according to the ibp reports, there were too many instances of certain keywords in the alt-text so I just removed some of them altogether... ill add them back in.

can you explain what you mean by "some of your images have duplicate specification" I don't understand...

Ken:
you're not going to hurt my feelings by trying to help me so don't hold back.

"Navigation javascript? No text feed-thru! You need to add textural links thru to the rest of the site. It can be done nonobtrusively at the bottom of each page."

can you explain this a bit more? I know the left side navigation uses javascript as well as standard links... are you recommending I get rid of the javascript navigation?

also, what is meant by "no text feed-thru"? it sounds important!

I guess I could add the textural links to the bottom of the page, but id rather not if there are other options.... also, wouldn't having the links (most of them anyway) at the top of the page, as I do, remedy the problem?

Since I didn't specify the page I was trying to optimize, I'm going to skip the analysis of the home page for now, although eventually I'll want to optimize that as well. I'll want the home page to be primarily optimized for Dog Training and Dog Trainer.. but that's a topic for another day

Regarding the site name in the meta tags...

There is a doc type tag in the page, did you miss it? <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

As far as having the sitename in the meta tags..
I was actually told by an SEO consultant that I should have them there... Originally I didn't. Also, on the page I'm optimizing (http://www.pupforum.com/adoptadog/index.cfm) does not contain the site name in the meta tags... so at least I have that working for me!

Finally, I don't have the pre-edit copies... I was lazy and didn't make copies.

But most of the changes involved slight changes to the meta keywords and description, some additional content to lessen the various keyword intensity, and some alterations to the same site links and link text. also some changes to the img alt attributes...

Sorry I can't be more specific.

Here is a link to the IBP (version 8.1 Standard Edition) report for my Adopt a Dog page: http://www.pupforum.com/ibp/adoptadogMSN.htm

Once again, you've all been great and while I know there are no guarantees, I'm sure your help will teach me allot and it certainly can't hurt my website! Most of the other dog adoption sites have major corporate backing and sponsorships and are able to spend large amounts of money to get their sites listed... Our site is run by my girlfriend and I and paid for out of pocket so you guys are helping to level the playing field...THANKS!

greeneagle · #16 (**permalink**) 09-01-2005, 07:38 AM

crooke,

I reviewed all 48 pages or so of the IBP report David sent me on your Site and didn't see much that would hurt your rankings if implemented.

I saw a great deal of repitition about including the term "Forum" in your tags and body, but really very little assistance as far as useful suggestions go for a mammoth document.

You should just step back and review the earlier suggestions I made and see what happens. Results will be evidenced in both the Site Stats and SERPs before PageRank.

Don't worry about GOOGLE PageRank at all right now! It really has nothing to do with "real time data", and that is what you need now.

Ken

**ctabuk** · #17 (**permalink**) 09-01-2005, 08:06 AM

Ken, that's because to understand IBP you have to realise that you can look at the optimisations (or with a Z as you Colonials prefer LOL)not just for Google, but for Google Australia, German, French, Yahoo, MSN, you name it, and as for keywords, I can do 500 (which is why I know where I rank)different terms in one search, OK it takes all day, but it is so complex. It really is for the guys like me and not really ideal for just one site, it's too complicated.

DEone · #18 (**permalink**) 09-01-2005, 12:49 PM

Hey David

I've taken some of the steps listed in the previous posts towards cleaning up the code...

But I still have many questions...

I posted a link in my previous post pointing to my IBP report (http://www.pupforum.com/ibp/adoptadogMSN.htm). I ran the report to optimize my adopt a dog page (http://www.pupforum.com/adoptadog/)for MSN searches...

According to the report, I should be in decent shape...

Can you offer any specific advice based on the report?

also,

while i see the importance of doing some housekeeping, when i compare my site to the other sites that i am competing with for rankings, my html is much cleaner...

also, i have other pages that will show up as the #1 placing despite being in need of housekeeping...

im getting a bit confused as to what elements are most important...

but im moving forward with everyone's advice anyway... at least the advice i understand...

thanks for everyone's continued help

i look forward to the day when i can come to this forum and answer questions instead of ask them!

DEone · #19 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 05:54 PM

Well, what do you know!!

my adopt a dog page is once again ranked on the first page for MSN (listing 7 to be exact)...

hopefully i can get it back to the top 3 again...

now if i only knew what it was that i did that goot it back there!

after following the advice posted in this topic and getting no results, I was frustrated and just started making slight changes to the content of the page. no meta tag changes were made and no new links were aquired...

i feel like im just making slightly educated guesses on what to do and this time i got lucky... i wish i had a more certain idea of what is workig for me and what isnt... blah!

i think im only on page 5 in yahoo's results for the same keyword term.. and im nowhere to be found on google...

think ill start working on getting links...

if anyone knows of any good link strategy posts within this forum, lemme know!

chris