What is a scam and what isn't?

[TexasJeff]

I am relatively new to SEO and I must say that the advice that I have received to date from this site has been great.

My company, www.novatexsolutions.com has just finished the construction and launch of an online classified ads site www.mycityslist.com and we are trying to advertise now.

My question is what is the best order of how to get good SEO going for the site.

My keywords are classified ads, online classifieds, personal ads, want ads, auto classified, employment ads

I am working on keyword density as well. What is a good percentage to strive for? 8? I mean I know it needs to be the highest percentage on the page, but is there a number that is "known" to be optimal?

This brings me to my real question...

Which of these service offerings are scams (more or less)...

1. Link Exchange farms
2. Automatic search engine submission programs (one claims 75000)
3. Directory listings

Does even a low budget pay per click program help?

I mean I feel that with this site the word just needs to spread because we feel it has alot of potential, but I do not want to keep throwing money on the fire.

Any advice would prove to be most welcomed and appreciated.

[cbp]

(1) & (2) are scams

CBP

[freehits]

not to jump on the bandwagon, but #2 is a major scam, send me a PM and ill submit your site for free. Using IBP 8.0 which uses a browser and wont upset anyone.

It submits to about 100 in english last i checked.

Submitting to the big engines is a joke, your signature with a link will solve that problem, save your time.

I still use this submit to get my site out to the smaller engines and directories that it offers asap.

There is a great directory list post on WPW that will give you about all you need as far as keeping busy with directory links.

Swing by link vault as well for a free way to better your position.

[KeithO]

Just submit to the high ranking directories and you'll do fine.

[timmathews.com]

I disagree with Keith saying just submit to high ranking directories and you will do fine.
I know you are working with an online classified site, but you need to drill down and find a niche that your site offers.
Do you focus on automotive classifieds, I want stuff classifieds, i want to sell stuff classifieds, etc.
Once you figure what you want the site to focus on, keyword you site to that theme.
There are hundreds of thousands of classified sites out here.
Pick a niche and optimize for it.
Cheers

[seofan]

Submitting to the big engines is a joke, your signature with a link will solve that problem, save your time.

I still use this submit to get my site out to the smaller engines and directories that it offers asap.

This is errant information. Google, Yahoo and MSN generate on the average 99% of all targeted, BUYING traffic.

So do you want to submit to hundreds of other search engines that generate less tha 1% of your total overall traffic.



I think it is obvious what is a waste of time and "a joke."http://www.cyberfieds.com
http://www.SCwebTV.com

[corporateface]

Right on Tim.

Also, pay per click advertising is a good way to get traffic. However, the key words that you use will greatly determine your conversion rate. (for PPC and Organic search)

Example: I am #3 in Google for Free Custom Website. I get a lot of traffic from people typing in Free whatever Template, etc... My business is almost 100% referral based, and my site is designed that way. Someone says, "Hey, go check out Corporateface.com". The prospect checks out the site and see "FREE CUSTOM WEBSITE DESIGN". They are looking for Custom Website Design and find it to be FREE. If you find me in the search engine you are more interested in the "FREE" part and are saddened to see that there is a condition. (I do have to feed my family)

Anyway, do a lot of research on the front end before investing in any PPC campaigns.

Later,
Keith
Corporate Face - Where the website is FREE, but you do have to buy something for crying out loud !!![/i]

[corporateface]

I think it is obvious what is a waste of time and "a joke."

I think that it was meant that there is no need to "submit" to the major engines. That is true. In fact if you use software to submit to the major engines you may damage your listing. The rest of the statement was your signature with a link will solve that problem, save your time.

There is nothing wrong with submitting to your site to google, however, it is no longer necessary to do so if you place a link to your site from a decent PR page. Google will find you and index you.[/quote]

[clivemcg]

Maybe, TexasJeff, you should take a leaf out of Corporateface's SEO technique.

Stuff your site with lot's of 'Free' type 'key phrase' text - misleading at best - then throw in a redirect and rank high.

Then attempt to laugh it off by saying that nothing's free and that you have a family to feed. I know it's par for the course these days so maybe I should go this route too.

If and when you do go down that road don't be so naive as to crow about your high rankings on a board for web pros would be my final bit of advice - I won't !

Damn shame as the output is top notch -

[mktplace]

There is more than one reason to list in the minor directories, and that has to do with inbound link count.

Sure, nobody uses these sites to search, but if you can submit to 100 sites that don't require a reciprocol link, then you are boosting your inbound link popularity - especially if the small directory is categorized and your link fits into one of its groupings.

Also, you don't necessarily want to use an automated package, even if it is only for 100 directories - another important factor is anchor text - by varying each link a little, the search engines will be less suspicious of a linking campaign.

Owen

[allaffiliatepro]

Hi Jeff,
Everyone will agree 1 & 2 are scams. Not worth your time or money. Directory submissions are great, not just the big ones, put simply every directory you can list yourself on that isn't banned is good.
But that should only be the start of your campaign. Directories alone are not enough, you need to keep going with link exchanges, and maybe even paid links. On top of that, in the mean time, if you want to get results straight away you'll need to start a PPC (Pay Per Click) campaign on one or more of the search engines. For good long term traffic an affiliate program is also important.
I could go on, but your probably better off looking at this site:-
http://www.cosmicmarketing.com
They have a directory submission service that is done by a real person to all the directorties they have found so far, around 200 I think at last count. You then get a report of all the directories they have submitted to, with a list a paid directories that would be worth submitting to.


Lyle

[spherica]

Originally Posted by TexasJeff

...but I do not want to keep throwing money on the fire.

Any advice would prove to be most welcomed and appreciated.

Directory and link exchanges do help alot - but they are not the end-all-to-be-all and if you only focus your efforts on these [for search engine results] it will take longer to develop.

Wise money spending... hire a professional copywriter is the best short-term solution [investment] that will aid you "if matched together" with your link development strategy.

Get the bulk of copywritten articles into the navigational path to this resource and use a few to develop exposure in resources that allow article inclusions.

"Keep these original" don't make it a habit of write once, include in many - as this will return less results.

It's interesting to note that with Google - such article can rank in 48-72 hours after inclusion and remain ranked for weeks before dropping back in results 'as being less fresh'.

[corporateface]

Clivemcg,

The redirect page was created as a test out of frustration sometime in the middle of last year. We have offered Free website design for over 1 year and were not successful in Google for those terms. We thought we'd give it a try to see what happened. It may or may not have worked. It has only been recently that we have been ranking well. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out. We have taken the redirect page down. That page had been off our radar for some time. My apologies.

My point was not to boast of a #3 ranking, it was to serve as an example of ranking for something that doesn't convert into business.

[TrafficProducer]

What is a scam and what isn't?

Maybe on a different line;

scams and hoaxes:-

http://www.acomputerportal.com/scams_and_hoaxes.html

Automatic search engine submission programs (one claims 75000)

7,500

Is that all! I've know of places that claim Ten's of Millions.

(Most are to Free For All sites.)

Is this a Scam, (Just depends how you look at it)?
No; because that is what they do, (well maybe not to the number they state but to lots of places FFA sites).
Yes; because this is almost waste of time, (You may get one or two real visits), and may get your site removed from major engines. You will also get a TON of never ending Spam.

[awrowe]

What I'm finding interesting about corporateface's website is that it only has a PR of four and its stuffed almost to the point of unreadability with self linked pages and keywords.

My site has been up for about 8 weeks, I've applied very basic SEO to it (meta description and meta keywords for each story) and my inbound links were acquired organically to say the least. Its nominally in the same category as corporateface's. I haven't actually made an effort to do any serious SEO at all on it, but the site go a PR of four from the first google update it met.

I have to admit I've taken something of a lighthearted approach to it. An example of that would be the fact I am number one on google for the phrase "flammable koala". (I do have a story on that though)

I think that all by itself proves that chasing PR is a complete waste of time. Its attainable from other sources and directions.

cheers,

Alan

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by awrowe

I haven't actually made an effort to do any serious SEO at all on it, but the site go a PR of four from the first google update it met.

I don't mean to highjack the thread, but I have to agree. I bought a domain and put up a page with one very short sentence on it, and then linked to it from one PR5 site, and this new one-page, one-sentence site with only one incoming link is now a PR4. On the other side of the spectrum I have sites that are seven or eight years old, are in the DMOZ, and have lots of incoming links, and they're a PR3.

Back on topic...

Originally Posted by TexasJeff

Does even a low budget pay per click program help?

In my opinion, a low budget pay per click budget can be very effective! It forces you to be very specific. You can set it up to only display when an exact combinations of words is entered. For example, Free Web Sites might get you lots of traffic from kids looking for a site like MySpace.com - but Free Custom Web Sites might give you less clicks, but a higher conversion rate.

With Google Adsense play around with the quotes "" and the brackets [], to really get specific. Even if you only have a budget of a dollar a day, it can help if you really target when your ad will display.

[davidof]

Originally Posted by TexasJeff

I am working on keyword density as well. What is a good percentage to strive for? 8? I mean I know it needs to be the highest percentage on the page, but is there a number that is "known" to be optimal?

Why 8? Is this some magic figure you have seen touted about. Really anything between 0 and 20% is okay depending on the search engine. If you are targetting Google then keywords on page make very little difference, you need IBLs with keywords.

Otherwise focus on page structure which is somewhere that database and script driven sites often fall down: Title, Headings, Internal Links and Anchor Text etc. This is where your keywords need to occur. Make sure the site is readible to humans.

[paulfromwales]

I speak, rather unusually, from the point of view of not having a problem with search engines as I rank highly for the key words I want (usually in the top three). MSN excepted, though a quick check has just shown I rank no 1 for the UK results, but no 13 in the world, so perhaps they are getting the message!

Brilliant SEO? No, trial & error over the past seven years. I don't fear the Google dance as I have never, ever, been downgraded.

My conclusions (for what they are worth) are:

Content that people value and write about in their blogs/web sites etc. These links pass all the tests because they are genuine. I have never prompted any, people just say "go there, you will get information on...."

Keyword repetition - really of little import (OK, I know this is heresy) I have many pages on the web site that rank highly for certain word, even though I have only repeated them twice in the text. For example, I had a couple of pages linked to my web site as I was fighting a planning appeal. Within a week they were ranked no 1 in the world by Google for "dormer dwelling" even though this word only appeared twice! Once I dropped the link from my main web site, the ranking disintegrated rapidly - its not in the top 100 now!

Repeat submission - no point. I submitted once to all the majors in 1998 and have not bothered since

Submission to the minor players - directories & search engines. I have found that some of these do indeed generate valuable and rated links. Things like Senior search and regional directories are particularly good.

Do it by hand, don't buy software to do it. It's for this reason I don't own an autofocus camera. I believe I know best and can fine tune the results. It is thus so with submissions. Look at the directory - is it one of those "near spam" types full of machine generated links - in that case leave it alone. My advice - think regional, think specialist, think laterally. Is there a Rubber Widgit Directory? If you make boxes that rubber widgits could possibly fit in, get a link.

Join the Adwords suppliers! OK, OK, it's not supposed to do anything. BUT.... you can't tell me that if you have good incoming traffic, Google is not going to factor this into their equation!

Avoid shopping carts and ASP delivery unless you are a real expert!


Things that help greatly, but you can't do anything about:
Survive for several years
Be in a market place that is not totally overcrowded!

I recently used all my skills to help somebody in the holiday cottage industry. After setting up a duplicate site with standard html pages rather than asp ones, re-writing all the cottage descriptions so thy wern't the same as all the other cottage directories, we gained 400 positions from 700 & something to 300 & something.Total failure!

Don't be tempted to break the rules in your impatience - I was kicked out of Alta Vista (presumably for keyword packing) in 1989 and it took me over a year to get listed again

[Mac 5]

My keywords are classified ads, online classifieds, personal ads, want ads, auto classified, employment ads

TexasJeff those are pretty competitive keywords. You could do a search for the top sites in those categories and check how many links they have. A few good links from a high pr site could help you out.

[geoffreygag]

Hello Jeff,

Start a low level budgeted pay per click on your top 20 internal pages. If you are properly optimizing your pages -> then allow then to get indexed immediately. Geoff