Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?

[banseos]

I think some of the major Search Engines are a mess right now. I, with absolute certainty, blame the SEO Companys 100% for the problems and challenges facing the Search Engine business.

What do you think about SEO Companies?

[fathom]

Originally Posted by banseos

I think some of the major Search Engines are a mess right now. I, with absolute certainty, blame the SEO Companys 100% for the problems and challenges facing the Search Engine business.

What do you think about SEO Companies?

I know few major search engines (apart from Looksmart) that are having problems, and hear no search engine users complaining about them either.

Admittedly though most people when things aren't going right want to blame someone else.

[Cabbie]

Hi Guys

I think the SEO play a part in the reason for search engine change but the googles altavistas etc of this world would still be changing their alogs anyway just to keep everyone on their toes and to get rid of the spam. For example with google's new algo update, if everyone was annoyed with this change and then no one would use google, do you think they would keep the new algo. Trust me they would go back to previous algos.
What it boils down to is that everyone is their own SEO whether they use a company or themselves.
Everyone wants their site up at the top just some cant do it , some can do it and some are amazin at doing it. That is why the engines will always be changing. So I dont think we can all blame the SEo companies for this - but they do seem like a good choice.

Merry Xmas everyone!

[ronniethedodger]

Originally Posted by banseos

What do you think about SEO Companies?

I do not deal with them, so I would not have an opinion one way or the either. Nor do I really keep up on the daily goings-on in that area...so again I have no opinion.

What I can say is that they are useful to serve as an example of what or what not to do. I read here and there about how they are to blame for our lot in the Internet life. Whether that is really true or not, then I say learn from it if it is -- keep on keeping on.

Originally Posted by Cabbie the Profound

What it boils down to is that everyone is their own SEO whether they use a company or themselves.

That is deep (and so very true)...I like it !!!

[minstrel]

Originally Posted by banseos

Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?

Useful to whom?

I don't like RAP "music" but one of my sons does - so RAP is "useful" to him but not to me.

I don't need a wheelchair (so far) so wheelchair companies don't serve a useful purpose to me (so far) but I don't think anyone would want to argue that they don't serve a useful purpose to some people.

My brother would never hire anyone to do renovations on his house or plow his driveway in the winter, but I suck at carpentry and I hate shoveling snow so people who provide those services are very useful to me.

[ronniethedodger]

Originally Posted by minstrel

I suck at carpentry and I hate shoveling snow so people who provide those services are very useful to me.

I suck at carpentry too !!! It is a very bad profession to be all-thumbs in.

But, I have been known to suck snow !!! %-(

[excell]

It seems there is an assumption that SEO is associated with SE SPAM?

I would not lump all SEO's under the same banner. Methodologies range from pure optimisation of the web site and positioning within the web (making it the best it can be and clearly communicating with the intended audience) - this type I consider actually *help* the SEs and the searchers...through to methods that fall well outside of any guidelines and are clearly intended to trick and fool not only the SEs but also the searchers.

So to answer the question, one would have to know what you mean by SEO?

[Cabbie]

excell is right.

but if the search engines got their finger out of their butt and started banning sites that have in their title e.g for example "scotland business - business in scotland" when said title is clearly spam. Then the real SEO's would not stoop to such lenghts. So SEO's would not get a bad name.

I dont relate SEO with spam anyway but if a SEO's have to get their clients site to come up agaist their clients compeditor then they would not be tempted to use such methods as they know they would be banned from google etc...

The problem is sometimes a compeditors will use other SEO's that design their website which is clearly using spaming Techniques but these people dont get their sites banned. so it can be quite tempting to join them.
As I said before we are all our own SEO's so it's up to us all to stay within the search engine law.
I just wish the search engines who keep their word by banning spam websites.
If they did then I would definetly say the SEO serve their purpose

Here edith the lesson.
Rememeber the taxi driver always knows best.

Cabbie from Glasgow in Scotland!

[ronniethedodger]

Originally Posted by Cabbie

but if the search engines got their finger out of their butt and started banning sites that have in their title e.g for example "scotland business - business in scotland" when said title is clearly spam. Then the real SEO's would not stoop to such lenghts. So SEO's would not get a bad name.

That is a little harsh. For one...I HAVE to resort to a form of this myself. Or create a whole seperate set of pages to accomodate it.

In my situation it is the search engine that forces me to do it (no name here ... hehehe)

I have a case where in the title I use the word "Burts" plus the rest of the actual name. If you go to this search engine and do a search for Burts, it comes back and asks you "Did you mean Burt's".

Clicking on the "Did you mean..." link produces drastically different results and I am sunk.

So in order to get around this...I use both Burts and Burt's in my titles --- would you consider this to be spamming in this case ???

Sometimes I think there are different levels of spamming. Some are more blatant than others, and it boils down to what the intent is of the writers. In my case I think I have a legitimate case to use both in the Title.

This type of spamming (if you choose to call it that) is necessary. At the other end of the spectrum is the really nasty, lowlife, scumbag sites that use deceptive techniques such as javascript to write redirection code into the document or DIV positioning tags to position one-hundred text links at -100, -100 outside of the browser window.

You asked in a previous post "So to answer the question, one would have to know what you mean by SEO?"

I now ask, what do you consider to be spam? Are there different levels of spam? Can some spam be interpreted as non-spam, and vice-versa?

PS -- I am beginning to like this thread so much that it prompted me to change my Signature line. ;-)

[Cabbie]

Ronniethedodger
Let's not get away from the question "are SEO's any good" which I say they have their purpose!

I can see this post having many branches that shoot from the main tree.

My attitude is.... I suppose I can be considered an SEO - even though I'm a taxi driver who designed his own website from his business.
My main Taxi site has about 8000 to 14,000 search terms to find it every month.
I have designed websites for clients and optimized them. I have optimized websites designed by other people so yes I'm an SEO - freelance.

I can understand your thinking about Burts & Burt's.
I don't see this as a form of spam.
Example if your into "hill walking" and especially scotland, the there is a famous place called arthur's seat - which is in Edinburgh but people also know it as arthus seat so there you go two important terms that brings up different searches.
Now for me I have designed a website for a friend (free of charge) which is about his experiences of "hill walking in scotland". He has just finished "arthur's seat" of which I have made a page. Now obviously I will have to make a page stating "hill walking arthur's seat" & "hill walking arthurs seat". I will do this but they will be 2 separate pages about the same thing but changed search term but one page will mainly be about the accommodation in the area. As I see it, my mate does not make any money from this site he just wants people to know about it - so he has nothing to gain financially. If people wanted to know about "arthurs seat", they would definetly want to know about both his pages even though they would only type one search term to find it.
I will do this and I dont see this as spam.

ronniethedodger you said

• At the other end of the spectrum is the really nasty, lowlife, scumbag sites that use deceptive techniques such as javascript to write redirection code into the document or DIV positioning tags to position one-hundred text links at -100, -100 outside of the browser window.

They are the ones who should be banned.

There are different levels os SEO spam but "scotland business - business in scotland" is in my eyes "trying to get one over you" spam.
Burts and burt's is not spam but I would prefer each term was in a different relevant page.

I could go on and on about this with different examples but I'm a webpro neewbie so my fingers are a bit sore.

merry xmas everyone

[ronniethedodger]

Originally Posted by Cabbie

Let's not get away from the question "are SEO's any good" which I say they have their purpose!

There are different levels os SEO spam but "scotland business - business in scotland" is in my eyes "trying to get one over you" spam.

Burts and burt's is not spam but I would prefer each term was in a different relevant page.

If part of the definition of what a bad SEO is considered, or perceived, to be is based on spamming...then we would need to clarify what the definition of spam is in the first place.

I think the use of "scotland business - business in scotland" titling is not spamming at all. Just as doubling up the Burt/Burt's is not.

Your suggestion of creating pages with duplicate content and changing the titles and keywords to match the target phrases, in my opinion, is spamming.

But I also believe that there are gray-areas (like above) and it all boils down to perception; what is the intent of the alleged spam in the first place.

If it is designed to deceive the searcher in any way, then it is spam. In the above examples, I do not see any deception involved to the searcher. Although in the duplicate page alternative, it could be constrewed by the SE as deception...but that is still a very gray area.

SEO's who use varying degrees of spam, therefore can be guaged in varying levels of "badness". From one's who toe the line and avoid any inference of spam (squeeky clean), to the one's who push the envelope, and the one's who are outright scumbags (the really true bad apples in the bottom of the barrel).

[Cabbie]

ronniethedodger
This is where we will beg to differ.
burts and burt's in my eyes is not spam but I can see why some search egines would ban it. So for the SEO who say to potential clients that they can get their site up there. There is pitfalls all over the place for the SEO.

ronniethedodger
If in your statement that you say

• I think the use of "scotland business - business in scotland" titling is not spamming at all. Just as doubling up the Burt/Burt's is not.

.

In my eyes this is spam (clear spam). Why because the same word is used in the title twice. This is a no no.
You also say

• Your suggestion of creating pages with duplicate content and changing the titles and keywords to match the target phrases, in my opinion, is spamming

.
I do not mean duplicate content with different titles. different titles for a search term but with different content that would progress from the other page.

Look at it this way if I was interested in 'glasgow bed & breakfast' and I didnt come across a particular website cause the title had 'glasgow accommodation bed & breakfast' and said site was exactly what I was looking but was listed number 150 out of 90,000 in an engine then I would be Seriously annoyed.
But if the same site had pages for 'glasgow accommodation' and then a page on 'glasgow bed & breakfast' but the 'glasgow accommodation page' listed sites that linked to it - hotels B&B, inns etc and then the 'glasgow bed & breakfast page was more specific about B&B details listing the same B&B from the accommodation page but also listing more details of other B&B.
The same site would be aiming for 'glasgow accommodation' & also aiming for 'glasgow bed & breakfast' with more precise details in one page but the site would not come up if it had glasgow accommodation bed & breakfast in its title. Then are you saying said site would be spam?

This would be confusing for the SEO's, never mind me and I promote scottish tourism, especially if that have not optimized for the tourism sector.

I do not spam, never have, nor ever will.
I hate spammer with coloured text the same as background etc... These are the sites that should be banned.

Feel better now.
Don't want to be an SEO anymore though!

[ronniethedodger]

I will concede to your example of "accomodations" and "bed & breakfasts" as having totally different meanings and might be spamming.

But the "scotland business - business in scotland" is splitting hairs a little don't you think? I mean when you get down to it...aren't they saying the same thing?

I use the word "bees" twice the titles on my burts pages. One page in particular in that area has "bees" twice and the word "bee" in additon.

Let's just agree that this is one of those gray area spam techniques...very low on (really low) on our new Badness Spam Scale. On a scale of 1-10 in bad spam....I give it a 0.5 Agreed? ;-)

So what do you think of my new Signature ???? I need to know...got to take that off of there real soon. People are starting to ask me about it...hehehehe.

[fathom]

There are good and bad techiques that anyone can use, there are ways to fool search engines (admittedly for only a short period of time).

That last part is the most important part.

A SEO (or any website owner with a little understanding) can manipulate Google and get away with it. This isn't rocket science.

Technique isn't the problem - vulnerabilities is, and often this is used as a competitive advantage.

There is nothing wrong with having a competitive advantage - but if you, yourself truly do not understand all the specifics of any particular competitive advantage - that advantage can quickly become your own disadvantage.

A good SEO "learns" and learns all the time - the only bads ones are those that only "read" about technique and never attempt to understand the vulnerability - thus often don't offer any real competitive advantage and have no clue when to stop or change techniques, or what is a good techique and what is useless.

[ronniethedodger]

Hey Fathom -- the English language is tough enough.

Here we have been talking about "bad" as meaning wicked, unscrupulous (sp?). Now you come in and portray it as meaning "stupid" !!! ;0)

But you know...a good SEO would see that the word bad has different meanings; he has the understanding of how such a simple word can have profound effects in usage and interpretation.

[fathom]

I personally don't like concentrating on anything that is "bad" in the industry - as it gives "bad light" to even all the good.

I come across so many people that only hear the negative - and it's like talking to a brick wall.

[ronniethedodger]

I am in agreement with you on that.

It is like the people who watch just one news show, and from a half-hours viewing they believe that is the way things are...period.

[touristips]

What do you think about SEO Companies?

To be honest most SEO have puffed up clients by saying get top 10 results
guaranteed.

Sounds great!!

Then I think what to they know that I don't.
Nothing if you read guidelines and do the research.

Looking at current artificial results they don't help visitors find the most relevant
results as a result of alo manipulation.

Just a rubber stamp template since they can use what works for one focus or another till search engine redigest their spam.

If you don't have the time or motivation to make your site succeed
paying a SEO will only last as long as payments can be processed.


Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?
Yes you can contact several as a prospective client ala ronnie on Ace and hear the pitch.

I bet you will find similarities or modis operendi.

Ask them for other satisfied clients sites and build a pattern.

[ronniethedodger]

Originally Posted by touristips

Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?
Yes you can contact several as a prospective client ala ronnie on Ace and hear the pitch.

I wonder what happened to my buddy Ace? ;0)