SEO is a joke

[collusion]

I do search engine optimization and positioning for a living and I always see other seo's complaining about how hard it is to get ranked in Google.

Contrary to belief, it is 80% based on optimization. The key here is that alot of SEO's have their own opinion on if a site is optimized or not.
A site you show me that you claim is optimized is most likely not.

Sure, a few IBL's are nice to have but there are sites ranked on the top of Google for hard to get keywords and they have hardly any IBL's at all compared to the competitors.

It is all about keepig your optimization in tune with Google's algo. When they change their algo, thats when you change your optimization.

Well, how do I do that you ask?
Sorry, can't tell ya. I would be giving up monthly checks if I did that!

[andromeda]

If getting a good ranking is only about following the changes in Google's algo... then how do you explain sites that haven't done *any* updates whatsoever on their site for more than a year - and still maintain a steady #1 position? I've always assumed it was due to their thousand+ backlinks.

[collusion]

Sites that maintain a top ranking, they usually know the "secret" to following the algo and tiny changes are made that you wouldnt notice just by looking at it. Backlinks help, like I said SEO is 80% of the deal. The other 20 percent comes from backlinks, relevant outbound links and so on.

Have you ever thought that some of the sites you speak about might be "owned" by a Google employee or someone that is key to their operation?

[collusion]

I should point out that I have most of my traffic come in from Yahoo! anyway. I do not like Google at all because in their quest to become relevant, they exclude very relevant websites based on what they think is a great algo. 90% of the time I can not find a quality company through Google but I find what I need 100% of the time with Yahoo!

[collusion]

I should point out that I have most of my traffic come in from Yahoo! anyway. I do not like Google at all because in their quest to become relevant, they exclude very relevant websites based on what they think is a great algo. 90% of the time I can not find a quality company through Google but I find what I need 100% of the time with Yahoo!

[Elite Skills]

Yahoo is slow in updating. I don't know what you're talking about because Google has been way better in providing relevency and updating their algorithm often, analyzing the results. Yahoo crawler is still a lemming compared to the google crawler.


It's not 80% optimization. It's all about inbound links keyword rich links from high ranked sites. I'm not going to makeup a percent, but it has the greatest weight.

[collusion]

You can continue to think its all about IBL's. I will also continue to get your disappointed customers.

It is for the most part optimization. If you did a search for the word lingerie on Google, you will see that one of the sites has over 100,000 IBL's and one of the sites have just 4 IBL's. But you must know what you are talking about (sarcastically said).

You may want to reconsider your thinking when it comes to SEO and I guarantee you will be satisfied if you do.[/img]

[freehits]

Well your statement and the SEVEN links in your signature dont really agree with one another.

[collusion]

the links in my signerature probably wouldnt agree with my statement seeing that I havnt optimized them for Google quite yet. You might want to direct your bright ideas to the previous post I had that said the sites ranked for lingerie have completely different IBL #'s. Come on. I do not want to make anybody look dumb or ignorant to the SEO world even if you call yourself a professional. I want you to look at the facts. IBL's don't matter. I already proved this in my previous post.

Now prove that optimization don't matter and then you can begin to argue with my statement. I am sure that any site you decide to show me that is "optimized" really is not optimized and it most likely don't rank well.

[Elite Skills]

Only trying to help you. Don't have to get offended.


haha, about the 4 inbound links, it helps if you don't click the sponsored ads.

Otherwise

Show me an example.





But you can't find one huh?

[collusion]

I am not offended with your ignorance at all. Don't apologize.

Those sites don't have a ton of links going to them that make a significant difference in the rank.

[collusion]

Here is an example. The restaurant market is very competitive in Chicago. Do a Google search for Chicago Fine Dining and FrankieJS.com comes up #9. They do not have alot of links compared to their competitors. The site IS very optimized for that phrase however.

P.S. I am not discounting IBL's at all. When FrankieJS.com gets more IBL's I am sure it will climb to #1 but right now it doesn't and it is top 10.

[wednesday]

Originally Posted by Elite Skills

Yahoo is slow in updating.

I completely cannot agree with this. Yahoo is the fastest responding search engine! A word in your h1 reflectects in the serps within 48 hours.

Martin

[collusion]

I agree with you brainwash. I have had a great time with updates in Yahoo!.

[Elite Skills]

FrankieJS.com and #1 spot have equal amount of inbound links, but overall, the quality of sites linking to the #1 spot is better.


Try again.






Just check your query logs. See what yahoo does compared to what google does.

Google crawls more frequently
Yahoo Gets side tracked and looks at the same page many times.

[collusion]

Ok, you just contradicted yourself, the #1 spot has a higher quality of IBL's. If this is the case and google actually does look at the quality of IBL's then FrankieJS shouldnt even be in the top 10. There are many more websites trying to get that phrase that are much better, and that have high quality links. The point is that FrankieJS.com spent less time looking for quality IBL's and somehow managed to grab a top 10 spot. You try again.

[collusion]

I have a good idea. Why don't we save alot of time. You simply start promo on a webste that is not optimized for Google, make sure it don't have high quality IBL's also and it is at least a 6 month old website. Optimize it correctly and submit it to Google. You will save yourself alot of time and see that I am right. I am not trying to prove you wrong. I already did. I am trying to help you see what is going on so you don't see SEO as a struggle. Alot of SEO's see it as a struggle to keep up with the changes but the fact is that no matter what "changes" are made, it actually stays the same.

What can you count on at all times when it comes to keeping up with the algo? Simple. Find out what sites are currently ranked for your keyword. These top 10 sites define the algo. Look at each one of them. You will notice that one site has the keyword in charactor position 11 and another one has the same keyword in position 15. Common sense says put your keyword somewhere in between 11 and 15. Do this through every aspect of the site until your website matches the current algo. IBL's will never again count because Google knows that quality IBL's can be bought.

[Elite Skills]

Just check any highly competitive keyword. There's plenty of good well optimized sites.

It's about the keywords in inbound links. Inbound links provide the rank but the keywords dictate for what keyword to improve the ranking.

I don't have to really prove anything. Maybe you'll see it someday but I'm enjoying outstanding success.




SEO is easy. Just make quality content and people will link to it. The more they refer to it on the web, the higher the ranking.


Not too complicated but arrogance muddles everything.


I'm done with you.

[collusion]

You seem to be done with your career. Either way I have outstanding success also. Feel free to send your client my way after you fail.

[Faglork]

Collusion.

I am no moderator, but don't you think it *might* help to tone down a bit? Words like "I am not offended with your ignorance at all. Don't apologize." and the like are NOT the best way to get people to discuss your ideas. Unless you want to do monologues ...

Just my thoughts.

Alex

[collusion]

I am in no way trying to offend anyone. I am trying to get it across that I already know for a fact what I am talking about. Like right now for example. At some point SEO's started saying Hey I know for a fact that IBL's count the most! When it first begun I am sure the first SEO that figured it out got a bunch of people arguing and saying never. Now IBL's don't count and in a few months SEO's will be saying hey guess what, IBL's don't count and we figured it out. I am giving notice that I figured it out. If someone wants to chalenge me like "Elite" has I will not stand down when I am right.

Just please try out what I said and you will see, or don't and I will continue to be right.

[stretch dog]

Man, i agree with faglork... chill!

There is no one magic bullet for achieving a top 10 position in the serp's. True, there are things that should be avoided at all costs, most of which are pretty obvious and common sense... but the fact is that both collusion and elite skills claim to be successful at what they do, so is it not possible that they have both found a magic combination of seo and linking that works for them?

Obviousl IBL's 'can be' important, but the days of manging hundreds and thousands of direct recpriprocal links on links/resources pages and expecting them to contibute much of anything to your se position are numbered. Almost everyone does it and the se's just aren't that stupid.

On the other hand, good honest non reciprocal contextual links, using good anchor text, placed right within good quality content can be like gold when they're coming from a quality, topic related site, or authority site.

Seo is important, but if you know how to use common sense when laying out your content, then most of seo is just that... commmon sense and happens pretty much by default when writting page titles, meta tags, headers and copy...

There are a lot of different elements that are used by the modern day se, which makes for may different combinations... if you do a good job on one, you can probably be a little sloppy on the others... but wouldn't it be better to just do a bang up job right across the board. The se's would end up with better results to serve up and the user would have more quality results to choose from.

It's all about to change anyway... lol!

Ps... collusion... i had a quick look at the FrankieJS.com and donn't see how you can say that it is well optimized for 'Chicago Fine Dining'. Granted it isn't a terribly competitive term, well defined, but still.... shaky page title, no description tag, abundance of useless meta tags, no external style sheet resulting in mega formating tags, table instead of full css, poor use of hx and i could only find the search term intact once....

I'm not being critical so much as i am confused. I don't be pretend to know everything about seo, for that would be a fools domain... i do plan on being at it for a good long time though so thought you might comment.

[greeneagle]

collusion,

I am going to have to agree with several comments by your opponents here:

Your post is too commercial.

I don't see that you have added any value to the knowledge bank here throughout the thread.

Generally speaking, if you want to win over business, you initially bait with some new insight, a different angle or something to peak interest! What is your "headliner". "Everyone is stupid" doesn't get it done!

We also do not allow "personal attacks" here, let me quote you:

"I am not offended with your ignorance at all. Don't apologize."

That kind of inflamatory comment is just not acceptable and does not fit within the WPW use guidelines. Did you read them, before you signed on?

Several members that have countered you here are very knowledgeable and in my opinion - right on.

You need to consider a different Marketing and Sales approach.

I don't moderate this thread.
I don't like to step into others "domain".
But, we all help others here - That's the way we work.

Provide useful information or engage in valuable discussions that contribute to the community knowledge chest here, or don't post! That's my recommendation.

Ken

[collusion]

Stretch Dog, You must not have read my previous posts in it's entirety. I explained why FrankieJS.com is ranked and that "optimization" is different for each "type" of site. Yes, I am making a rediculous claim that Google has a dept. that is simply responsible for figuring out an algorithm for each industry. They have the money so why not? I would, it can be done but it takes time and resources which Google has plenty of.
FrankieJS.com IS optimized for that keyphrase. It does not seem relevant to the algo Google currently has for that industry to have the term in the title tag. The term may be found very few if not 1 time on the page, yet it IS optimized for that phrase.
Do you have a website that you desperately want in the top 10 and you just can't seem to do it Stretch Dog? I would love to know the URL so I can tell you why it is not ranked for your target keyword/phrase. The ONLY way this will be cleared up is by seeing for yourself.
People win the lottery big every day but you never think it will be you until it happens. You just don't think it is possible. I am telling you I can easily make it possible for ANY site.

[collusion]

greeneagle,

Did you read this "Not too complicated but arrogance muddles everything."? That came from Elite Skills attacking me. I am not sure how things work here and if mods "side" with people they favor or what but you should definately check him also. That was inflamitory in my opinion.

Simply put, I AM providing relevant content to this forum but for some reason with the proof I provided nobody seems to get it.

For example, every day church-goers say "I talk to god everyday" but when you get a guy that is in the middle of the street talking to god he gets the straight jacket.
You (everyone here) are basically telling me that even though I gave you the directions to take to see for yourself, I am completely ignored (as a crazy person that does not know what he is talking about).

I do not want to "attack' anybody. I won't do it unless I am attacked first. Please read posts entirely. I just want to share my knowledge and have someone get it. Like you said, we are here to help each other. I have avoided this site completely for months just because I didn't want to spill the beans on what is really going on but I am spilling them and nobody believes me. LOL. Well ok.

[greeneagle]

collusion,

Personal attacks are not tolerated here by anyone. It only insights sentiment that is not conducive to portraying either position.

The whole thread needs to tone down and become useful - to someone, anyone!

Quote:

For example, every day church-goers say "I talk to god everyday" but when you get a guy that is in the middle of the street talking to god he gets the straight jacket.
You (everyone here) are basically telling me that even though I gave you the directions to take to see for yourself, I am completely ignored (as a crazy person that does not know what he is talking about).

That's is a very good observation. There is a right way and time to present everything!
______________

You are obviously an SEO type. That has some stigma attached to it these days anyway. With the recent changes in the SE algs, the scope of SEO is also changing rapidly.

We all know that here, but you haven't been around long enough to know that we know that. I don't know how many 1000s of threads there are here chronicling the never ending changes as soon as they happen in multiple forums.

What everyone wants to know is:
What do you have to offer that is different than everyone is already practicing for themselves and their clients?

Ken

[collusion]

Aparently I am contribution the knowledge that it is all about optimization in this day and time. That is why I am being attacked. May I say that the members you speak of that are in and out of the threads daily say maybe this and mayhe that. I said I have avoided the forum as in I did not post. I do however follow almost every post ever posted. What elite skills has said that IBL's have worked, yes they did. And that algo will still hold true for those veterna sites that have been around for ages. I DARE him to go out and use that IBL campaign on a brand new site. It wouldn't go anywhere as far as rank. FrankieJS's was nowhere also and it was not IBL's that changed his position. The site wasn't even in the top 5,000 for the phrase chicago fine dining. But with a little tweak here and there it is now #9 and it will climb because of a few IBL's in the future. I didn't say IBL's were completely useless. Optimization was the biggest factor in this ranking.

[collusion]

The title of this thread by the way was an attention getter. It was there to draw you in to let you know that I stay on top of the algo's and it is a natural instinck basically that I have. I hope it didn't offend anyone.

[greeneagle]

Collusion,

You are still not being definitive in offering anything new.

We already know that "Generic" IBLs have more value than those that are reciprocated in GOOGLE.

We already have a "High Ranking Directories" Forum going here.

We have listed the check and tracking software and methods.

We have determined that content uniqueness, depth and freshness have been important all along, and that those content issues may have gained more strength lately (recent updates).

We also know about the importance of blogging, press releases, article submission and syndication...

We even know and have discussion threads concerning the looming possibilities of what effect and how LSI (Latent Semantic Indexing) may be influencing the current alg updates and what potential they may have for the future..

I could go on and on!

What do you have to offer besides another SEO commercial?

I haven't checked your Site and you probably don't want me to tear it apart!

What's your opinion:
Does MSN rank clean code higher?

Offer something, anything!

Ken

[collusion]

My sites arent listed anywhere in this forum and the links in the sig arent optimized for google. So you are aparently wasting your time also. Leave me alone. I am done with you and this thread.

[collusion]

p.s. MSN is the same as Google. It is al about optimization. With all the threads you suposedly follow I cant even believe u asked me that.

[greeneagle]

collusion,

We have those threads here too. Yes! - MSN and YAHOO are coming on strong. I personally, and several other members have Sites where MSN and YAHOO are beating the bejeevers out of GOOGLE in for SERPS, STATS and targeted traffic.

"SLURP" is "slurping" up the galaxy for 2 months now! What are they going to introduce from the "shadows"?

It's very obvious that GOOGLE may be leaning on BLs more than YAHOO for example. YAHOO seems to have a stronger relative page content value alg component than GOOGLE. How is the "camparative analysis" so much different? Is it just a lesser BL component?

We are discussing all these issues here, keep tuned in and chip in to the "community chest".

IMO - The best "SEO" happens in development, the rest is marketing and advertising.

Best Regards in all your business endeavors,
Ken

[Maloney]

Until this search phrase starts showing different SERPS, I have to go with IBLs are everything in Google:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...+failure&meta=

Bush, Carter, Moore...I don't see anything onpage that's optimized for 'miserable failure'. Mind you, I didn't dig that deep lol.

Not in title, description, onpage, 0 keyword density, no [b]<bold><h12345>, page name, etc. Miserable failure is zip, zero, nowhere onpage.

Yet ranked #1, #2 and #3 out of 581,000 sites - many of the sites ranked lower have miserable failure *somewhere* onpage.

[collusion]

Sorry Ken for my recent outburst at you. I am wondering why you said I didn't provide anything unique.

My take on SEO at this point in time is that every major search engine that is self sufficient right now is not worried about BL's at all anymore. I do remember a previous thread where the MSN clean code issue was proven to be irrelevant by a member who noticed a few sites on top that were definately not clean.

When I say optimization I am not talking about clean code or not. I mean pretty much the basics such as how many times a word is on the page and the outbound links text. For some reason Google as well as Yahoo and MSN have decided to rid themselves of the hassle of whether or not IBL's are just paid for. Search Engine main focus is being relevant and if they were said to be manipulated then stocks would drop like rain and nobody would use them and go back to the yellow pages. They have decided to find a different algorithm for each industry. Like a general shopping industry would have a certain algo and a site dedicated to auto parts would have another algo apply to it. This is unique. This is also not mentioned in another thread as far as I know.

[collusion]

Maloney, Here is the reason why that is http://www.1-hit.com/library/article...cle.htm?nr=158

Now I have said in a recent post that IBL's may be relevant for veteran sites, but let it happen in a new site and Nothing will happen. That was part of Google's last update.

[Jason Tor]

Your both right, good IBL's and good optimization is the key to getting top natural rankings on all the major search engines however, claiming that you know Googles algo is ludicrous at best. Google employs something like 100's of engineers to make sure you don't know their algo.

Even if someone has figured Googles algo out it will change within a few months. I would be weary of any SEO company that claims they are the best and know all. Every keyword is different, local, national, world wide, it’s a huge market.

I would also be weary of any SEO company that keyword stuffs their clients websites. That's borderline black hat, but that’s just my opinion as an educated designer and marketer.

What it comes down to is we will never figure out Googles algo and if we did we would be the busiest and richest SEO company out there. The important thing to do is to never stop trying to figure out Googles algo. Unless of course you want to run a PPC campaign, even then you should hire a professional to consult you before you jump into it.

And as for MSN, I just went to #1 from page 8 for my keyword due to adding 30 good IBL's (and possibly a blog that had something to do with it).

Jason Tor

[greeneagle]

collusion,

Now we are getting somewhere! I agree with you to a point that the other top SEs have played and are playing on GOOGLE's "Strong IBL alg Dependence Weekness". Has it not invited SPAM? The whole Internet Community at that level pretty well recognized that fact and called it. IMO - MSN and YAHOO are playining that hard right now! Any percieved weakness (real or not) can be utilized for an advantage.

I knew, that if you were making a living at "SEO" you had to know something, because the average Site Owner is even more aware of "spoofers", "Doofers", Gray Hats" and "Black Hats" these days, due partly to froums and threads like these found at WPW.

Sometimes excitement, language barriers and other issues get in the way.

I hope you continue to enjoy your membership at WPW, giving and taking.

Ken

[Jason Tor]

collusion,
Some of your portfolio links are dead. I love the CherryBanana.com domain. What was that site about?

Jason Tor

P.S. This is a real question that has nothing to do with this topic.

[collusion]

CherryBanana.com is a clothing line that is soon to be. It belong to my business partner in Dallas. It has never been completely developed because we are swamped with clients and can't get to our own sites. As for any dead links, we just moved an entire DNS to a new server along with the sites hosted on it. I will get right to it. Thanks.

[Jason Tor]

Let me know when it is up, I'm interested in checking it out.

Jason Tor

[freehits]

Studio12 I see for "arizona website design", thats a nice one Jason if thats the recent mover you refer to. MSN does lend heavy weight to repeated anchor text links, get enough and it will show up the same week often.

[collusion]

Gotta love it! My buddies site www.worldwidepiano.com has been ranked #4 and 5 for piano broker in Google http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...q=piano+broker

Also #5 in Yahoo for the same thing.

[greeneagle]

I really want to stress this:

IMO - Good SEO is Designed In, everything else is just applied Marketing and Sales!

Ken

[collusion]

Unrelated can someone PLEASE tell me how to get my avatar on here? I emailed admin but no response yet.

[Jason Tor]

Originally Posted by hoptoo

Studio12 I see for "arizona website design", thats a nice one Jason if thats the recent mover you refer to. MSN does lend heavy weight to repeated anchor text links, get enough and it will show up the same week often.

Now all I have to do is try and keep it there! Anyone know of any good SEO companies? LMAO

(I'm kidding of course)

Jason Tor

[freehits]

Originally Posted by collusion

Gotta love it! My buddies site www.worldwidepiano.com has been ranked #4 and 5 for piano broker in Google http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...q=piano+broker
Also #5 in Yahoo for the same thing.

And when http://www.tickets.cc/concerts/elton_john_tickets.htm
Elton John Concert Tickets webpage is #9 for that search also...

Gotta wonder whos driving the short bus at google. Happy for your friend, sad for google stockholders.

BTW did you see the #1 spot for that search? I thought for a second I was on Yahoo by mistake.....That may be my award for the best #1 ranked stinker I have ever seen on the G.




Jason, you should keep that ranking on MSN no problem. If that is the term you droppped anchor links for and that is the result, I se no reason to worry till msn changes the script, I have had a few pages rank TOO well due to those anchor links on MSN. Anything put in the link-loop seems to end up on page one for them.

[freehits]

http://www.webproworld.com/viewforum.php?f=37

This post for your Avatar I believe ^^^

[biju]

There are a lot Scams out here with known name SEO

[ctabuk]

Well I have to say that this has been fun reading, a real joy, a pleasure in every sense of the word. So I am just chipping in with the way my site performs.
600 Number one spots (Page one) Right now, top on ASK, 5th on Yahoo, top on Google, MSN 4th etc, business turnover, doubled last years results, six figure profits and not beginning with a 1. Invited by Amex for the 'black thingy'.
Oh and I forgot to optimise my pages, damn will I never learn? I just keep adding content and update once a week or so, I keep submitting to those Directory things and guess what, my backlinks are going up everyday.
Hoptoo, you kept your cool, I would have been tempted, No I can't put that.

[collusion]

ctabuk, you must have missed a post in this thread somewhere... wait more than one post. I said that veteran sites got away with that crap. IBL's and all. Do that with a new site. Hope you don't miss this post :)