DMOZ visits but no indexing.

[fernimac]

Hi,

I have found the following URL as a referrer in my traffic statistics:

http://editors.dmoz.org/editors/editcat-unrev2.cgi

which takes me to a protected page for DMOZ editors.
Does it mean that some editor in DMOZ visited my page? I requested DMOZ to index my website Human Level Communications six months ago, but it does not show in the index yet. This has been the second time that I have found a similar referrer in my statistics. I would like any advice to make my site show in DMOZ. Thank you!

Fernando

[Dave Hawley]

Not too sure but I would say that it does mean a DMOZ editor visited your site.

I requested DMOZ to index my website Human Level Communications six months ago, but it does not show in the index yet

Waiting over a year is not un-common I hear.

[cbp]

I would like any advice to make my site show in DMOZ

How about ---- stop spamming DMOZ with multiple submissions, submission of deep links and other spam which creates a whole lot of extra work for editors

Editors would rather spend time adding sites, not cleaning out all the rubbish that gets submitted.

CBP

[cbp]

BTW - are you also trying to get Google to ban you?

CBP

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

BTW - are you also trying to get Google to ban you?

CBP

Why???

Fernando

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

How about ---- stop spamming DMOZ with multiple submissions, submission of deep links and other spam which creates a whole lot of extra work for editors

Editors would rather spend time adding sites, not cleaning out all the rubbish that gets submitted.

CBP

I submitted my site just once, about six months ago.

Fernando

[cbp]

I submitted my site just once, about six months ago.

No you didn't. Are you using a search engine submisson program that also includes DMOZ? - you have created a lot of work for editors in deleting it all.

Why???

What are the Google guidelines about hidden text? What is that I see at the bottom of your index page?

CBP

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

No you didn't. Are you using a search engine submisson program that also includes DMOZ? - you have created a lot of work for editors in deleting it all.

No, the search submission program that I use does not include DMOZ and I am absolutely sure that I submitted my site manually, only the home page, to DMOZ once, six or more months ago. I also don't understand the rude way you are answering. Obviously, you have some information that I don't. Could you be more explicit?

Originally Posted by cbp

What are the Google guidelines about hidden text? What is that I see at the bottom of your index page?

CBP

And yes, this is hidden text. I started this thread two weeks ago.

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=107790

I had been trying Google to index my client's site and there had been no results after two months. My client was mad, so I include a link to his site from my resources, portfolio and home pages in a last try to save the account. Two weeks later, his PageRank has bumped up to 4 and 133 pages appear in Google index. If that is a crime, then I am guilty, but I understand we have to take some risks some times. Sorry.

Fernando

[cbp]

No, the search submission program that I use does not include DMOZ

I think you should double check that.

I also don't understand the rude way you are answering. Obviously, you have some information that I don't. Could you be more explicit?

Yes I do have more information, but sorry I can't be more explicit. I am always rude to people who make extra uneccesary work for DMOZ editors ...

And yes, this is hidden text.

Google bans sites for that.

CBP

[fernimac]

[quote="cbp"]

No, the search submission program that I use does not include DMOZ

I think you should double check that.

I use WebPosition Gold, and just sometimes. I have checked all the submitter missions for my site and to begin with, WebPosition does not include DMOZ in its automatic submission process, as far as I know, and I have checked all the results pages and there is no mention to DMOZ having confirmed a submission.

What I can recall, is that I had a very hard time with DMOZ submission page at that time. It would not work, or would get an error message or simply crashed the computer. This was something that also happened to many other people and was very commented about here at WPW. I maybe tried for twenty times until I finally got the confirmation page that my submission had been accepted. If all those previous tries did go through without my knowing it, I apologize, but DMOZ must accept part of the responsibility for not having their system properly working.

Also, I wonder... Could it be somebody else making automated submissions of my site to DMOZ to hurt my indexing in this site?

BTW, there is no more hidden text at my site.

Thank you again.

Fernando.

[cbp]

Also, I wonder... Could it be somebody else making automated submissions of my site to DMOZ to hurt my indexing in this site?

I will send you a private message in a few minutes.

CBP

[cbp]

I have done some digging re Web Position Gold - DMOZ is one of the "search engines" that they can submit to.

there is no mention to DMOZ having confirmed a submission.

DMOZ don't confirm a submission.

CBP

[cbp]

I got your reply to private message.

I suggest your next step is to go to www.resource-zone.com and ask in the submission status forum the status of your submission and see what respone you get. Senior editors over at resouce zone will check the status. Plase read the instuctions before posting (a lot of people don't!!)

CBP

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

I have done some digging re Web Position Gold - DMOZ is one of the "search engines" that they can submit to.

Please, these are the instructions of WebPostion on submissions to DMOZ and Yahoo Directory:



So, I think it is clear enough that WebPosition does not submit automatically to DMOZ, it just offers some guidelines to do it right. So this was not definetely not the case.

Fernando

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

I got your reply to private message.

I suggest your next step is to go to www.resource-zone.com

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Fernando
Estrategias en Internet

[arclid]

Hi,
Just checked you and you have been removed.
sorry.

Regards,

[Jason Tor]

Google will ban you for using web position gold.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html
"Don't use unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check rankings, etc. Such programs consume computing resources and violate our terms of service. Google does not recommend the use of products such as WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries to Google."

Not to mention it's flat out lazy! Just my opinion.
-Jason Tor

[cbp]

Google will ban you for using web position gold.

No they don't really. WPG will only get you baned only if you use the automated rank checking often. You can still use it for everything else and it won't get you banned.

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

You can still use it for everything else and it won't get you banned

But wont do you much good though :)

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawley

But wont do you much good though :)

I think you don't know much what WPG is good about. I don't use it to submit, but use it once a month to check the Ranks. If you have another way to do it and still be profitable for a number of clients, please tell me.

Fernando
Web positioning and optimizing

[Dave Hawley]

There are heaps of free sites where you can check you ranks. If you want to pay, that's fine by me :)

[Yayagogo]

Here is one of those free tools...and it compares your Yahoo placement with Google placement in Search Results pages.

http://www.langreiter.com/exec/yahoo-vs-google.html

[fathom]

Originally Posted by fernimac

I think you don't know much what WPG is good about. I don't use it to submit, but use it once a month to check the Ranks. If you have another way to do it and still be profitable for a number of clients, please tell me.

Fernando
Web positioning and optimizing

WPG isn't much good for much of anything.

"Just" submitting does nothing - if you are in "once" then you are just wasting time doing it every month... and while you believe you "are be useful and such actions are profitable you would do better by learning alot more about what you should be doing.

There is on average about 100,000 pages of good solid content on being profitable in optimization - and none suggests WPG is the way to go.

[fernimac]

I don't use it to submit, but use it once a month to check the Ranks. If you have another way to do it and still be profitable for a number of clients, please tell me.

Fernando
Web positioning and optimizing

WPG isn't much good for much of anything.

"Just" submitting does nothing - if you are in "once" then you are just wasting time doing it every month... and while you believe you "are be useful and such actions are profitable you would do better by learning alot more about what you should be doing.

I thought I had told that I didn't use it to submit, but to check the ranking.

And your parents ought to teach you a little bit more about respect and education. I am very sorry, but I don't like the way some of the moderators here at this site are answering. If you know soooooo much, then why are you wasting your time answering "stupid" questions like mine instead of making piles of money?

Fernando
Human Level Communications

[cbp]

but use it once a month to check the Ranks

Which is exactly what Google says not it use it for and using it for that could get you banned.

And your parents ought to teach you a little bit more about respect and education. I am very sorry, but I don't like the way some of the moderators here at this site are answering

Don't forget where this thread started:
1) You spammed DMOZ --> advice was given to help
2) You had a hidden link on your site - this is called spam and can get you banned --> advice was given to help you
3) You use WPG in the way that can get you banned --> you have been given advice to help you

...hmmmmm

CBP

[HardCoded]

Yeah but..fernimac, the advice you are given is right. You are not seeing any animosity towards yourself. You are seeing a reaction toward what people who do this for a living know is total crap.

Total crap == Total crap

And you're right, the mods are just incredibly stupid. Instead of helping people, they should go away and just design websites and stuff.

(Uhhm..</sarc>, just in case...)

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by Yayagogo

Here is one of those free tools...and it compares your Yahoo placement with Google placement in Search Results pages.

http://www.langreiter.com/exec/yahoo-vs-google.html

OK. So there are heaps of sites to check the ranks... And you suppose I must assume that somebody at these sites checks the ranks manually... Let's see. Google does not recommend WPG because it makes automated queries, then why web tools that make also automated queries would be any better for Google than WPG?

Fernando
Web positioning | Posicionamiento en buscadores

[cbp]

then why web tools that make also automated queries would be any better for Google

They use Google's API:
http://www.google.com/apis/index.html

WPG does not.

CBP

[fernimac]

[quote="cbp"]

Don't forget where this thread started:
1) You spammed DMOZ --> advice was given to help

I don't and can't know what happened with DMOZ, I just know that I had a hard time having this submission page working properly. And I know that it was commented by many other people at that time in WPW. I did not spam DMOZ and I already thanked you for the advice given to solve the problem.

2) You had a hidden link on your site - this is called spam and can get you banned --> advice was given to help you

Yes, I had a hidden link and it helped me solve a problem. In two weeks, I had 196 pages of my client's site listed at Google and got a PageRank 4 for him. I am ready to assume some risks some times. Business is always about assuming risks, I have learned and I also make this for a living.

3) You use WPG in the way that can get you banned --> you have been given advice to help you

...hmmmmm

I stopped believing in monsters years ago. If Google could ban me for using WPG, anybody could use against his competitors. If you are thinking in IP terms, then my IP is the same as the millions of spaniards who use Telefonica ADSL proxy cache servers.

I am in favour of this position shown by Atul Gupta in a recent article:

Where does your Site Rank on Google? | WebProNews

"Checking your site ranking of this magnitude can be very painful, especially if you wish to do it every month, unless you are using a rank-checking software. Google and most other search engines discourage the use of automated software to check site rankings. Most search engines clearly mention this in their Terms of Service. Understandably, they would like to provision their server resources and bandwidth for human visitors and not waste their resources feeding content to software based queries.

..........................

Summary:
Search engines are unlikely to succeed in warding off webmasters from frequently checking their website ranking on their search properties, no matter how many stringent rules they have in their "Terms of Service". Perhaps the age old saying holds good.

- "If you can't beat them; join them"

Google, are you listening?

Note: If you would like Google and other search engines to offer this kind of a website rank checking facility, vote for it here. We will try and get your voice to these search properties."

...................

Fernando

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

They use Google's API:
Developer Home - Google Code

WPG does not.

CBP

Google says:

Google Web APIs are a free beta service and are available for non-commercial use only. Please see our terms of service.

Now, if I use Google API for a commercial use, as it would be the case, am I more legal that using WPG?

Fernando

[cbp]

They have Google's permission to use the API for those purposes. WPG does not.

CBP

[fernimac]

BTW, I have found the thread about the problem with DMOZ at the time I tried to suggest my site to this directory:

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=5875

Fernando

[fernimac]

Originally Posted by cbp

They have Google's permission to use the API for those purposes. WPG does not.

CBP

I am not deffending WPG: it is just the only automated tool I came across to check the Ranks. I understand it is not fair for Google to abuse its system that way. But they are making a lot of money because of their position in the market and because SEM professional are educating the companies into the importance of being in the first positions. If they don't want us to use automated queries, then they could offer webmasters and SEM professionals with some tool to accomplish the same objective. All of us, Google included, would be winners.

Fernando.

[HellaCooL]

Originally Posted by cbp

No they don't really. WPG will only get you baned only if you use the automated rank checking often. You can still use it for everything else and it won't get you banned.

CBP

WOW! Let me go and get all my competitors banned.
BRB!

[cbp]

WOW! Let me go and get all my competitors banned.

Dosen't work like that - Google have gone after the IP address that the automated checks are being made from - not the site thats being checked. I am sure they know that it is possible to do that ....otherwise why do you think that we aren't already trying to get competitors baned?

The only problem is tying a IP address that the checks are being made from to a URL to ban ....

CBP

[HellaCooL]

I was just being ironic...
My point is that stuff like that won't get you banned.

[romancito]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

Google will ban you for using web position gold.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html
"Don't use unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check rankings, etc. Such programs consume computing resources and violate our terms of service. Google does not recommend the use of products such as WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries to Google."

Not to mention it's flat out lazy! Just my opinion.
-Jason Tor

Would this kind of penalization include ranking and link popularity queries made through WebCEO?

Is it really lazy to let a program check ranking so that the SEO can spend valuable time looking at the bigger picture for each client's site?

[oagady]

Hi,

I am sorry for using your thread, but I see that I have a similar problem as the thread author (I also had DMOZ editors visiting my site and nothing happened). I am a programmer and I started running my site not having any knowlege about SEO. I used free submission tools and not only that, I was using SEO companies which, I believe, also were submitting my site to DMOZ. On the top of that, I was experimenting a lot with the site and I have changed the main direction - instead of general dating service I moved to a Russian dating service. When I have changed the targeted keywords, I submitted my site to a different category in DMOZ. Over the time, when I got some knowlege of SEO, I realized how many mistakes I have done. I feel terribly sorry and ashamed for spamming DMOZ (I didn't know that I was spamming it), and my biggest question is - will I be able to get out of this mess, or I have to get another domain name and start everything from zero? Is this the only way out?

I would appreciate your help. Please, tell me what is the best way to improve my situation.

Thanks
Agady

[cbp]

and my biggest question is - will I be able to get out of this mess, or I have to get another domain name and start everything from zero? Is this the only way out?

Why? A DMOZ link is not that important.

I can see several potential problems with your DMOZ submission:
1) It requires registration - (DMOZ editors don't necessarily like registering to review a site, so that puts you at a disadvantage)
2) Are you just an affiliate? - (I am not registering to find out) or are the database of profiles yours?
3) All your submission of duplicates has caused a lot of extra work for DMOZ editors.

CBP

[oagady]

Hi, CBP

Thanks for answering.

1.I want to get in DMOZ for the same reason everyone wants - this database is downloaded by many search engines. So, to get more links....

2. Regarding registration - yes, probably I had to supply a testing accout, so the editors from DMOZ could use it to check my site.

3.I am not an affiliate. The database with the profiles belongs to me. I started this site to get experience with web programming and now I treat it as a real business. I am very serious about it.

4. Regarding how much work my submissions caused to DMOZ editors - I have no idea.
Someone from dmoz visited my site 4 days ago, and then again two days ago, and nothing happened.

So, do you think I can still get registered at DMOZ, or they have a black list where I might be at the moment?



Thank you very much
Agady

[cbp]

3.I am not an affiliate.

Do any of the internal links have affiliate code or somehing that looks like that in them?

Someone from dmoz visited my site 4 days ago, and then again two days ago, and nothing happened.

That really does not mean anything - it could mean that they were just deleing duplicates, or moving it to another category, or ....

or they have a black list where I might be at the moment?

No black list.

CBP

[oagady]

I don't think I have any links with affiliate code. When I exchange links, I check the link's code.

I didn't mention before that the page that was visited - was the Russian page, which I submitted to the DMOZ category in Russian language -
http://www.singles-space.com/russian/dating/indexRu.jsp

There are several Russian search engines counters on that page. But as far as I know, these counters are everywhere on Russian sites, and I don't think they can hurt.

But if you say that a visit from dmoz with no result doesn't mean that I was rejected - it is already good news. However the page they visited (the Russian home page) I submitted only once, so there is no duplicates for sure).

Thanks
Agady

[Web CEO Team]

Originally Posted by romancito

Would this kind of penalization include ranking and link popularity queries made through WebCEO?

I represent Web CEO in this forum and I should say that we haven't received any complaints from our clients about being banned due to rank/link checking with our software.
I see three main reasons for this:
1. Web CEO has advanced human emulation features: it makes random intervals between search queries, random intervals before proceeding to the next SERP, imitates fetching images, style and other objects, visits SE home pages and chooses random results for redirects
2. For safer checking you can use a list of proxies instantly generated from inside the software with the help of our DataCenter
3. Web CEO supports Google API

[romancito]

I represent Web CEO in this forum and I should say that we haven't received any complaints from our clients about being banned due to rank/link checking with our software.

Thanks for your quick reply. I was concerned that I was hurting my clients by running somewhat frequest rank checks.

I love WebCEO and would hate for anything to suggest that my clients were banned as a result of using the program.

[canistotasoftware]

Originally Posted by cbp

Don't forget where this thread started:
1) You spammed DMOZ --> advice was given to help


...hmmmmm

CBP

CBP,

You wouldn't happen to be an editor for DMOZ would you? Having gone through the DMOZ listing process and frequenting the DMOZ help forums, submitting your site multiple times to DMOZ can hardly be considered spamming as long as you keep submitting to the same category. All information given in the DMOZ forum states that each submission just overwrites the previous submission which as far as I can tell just puts you further down the editorial review process, in other words the submitter is just delaying any chance he might have in getting listed in DMOZ. Now submitting the same site to different categories is probably a different story and I am sure a royal pain for the DMOZ editors.

[cbp]

You wouldn't happen to be an editor for DMOZ would you?

My role as an editor has been discussed here many times.

submitting your site multiple times to DMOZ can hardly be considered spamming as long as you keep submitting to the same category

Usually thats what happens, but not always. I have just taken on editing some new categories.

One of them had 10 sites listed and ~30 sitting in the suggstion pool - NONE of that 30 were listable!!! ~5 were submiitted to the wrong category (so I had to search for the correct category write a note and move it to the suggestion pool for that category); ~10 were useless re content (still takes time to look over the site); ~2 were aleady listed elsewhere and were cleverly disguised to hide that fact (these took a while, checking WHois data and looking for dulplicate content etc); ~15 were repeat and deep link submisions from ONE site that not suitable to list ..... and people wonder why it takes so long to get listed in DMOZ .... all that took me almost 3hrs of my volunteer time and not one site got added to DMOZ as result of that effort.

I now have a whole lot of other categories with a huge number of similar looking sites waiting...why would I want to bother spending my time going through them all??? I volunteered to build a difrectory, to add value to a category. As I have said several times DMOZ is not a free listing service and editors are not there to process submissions - it is a very inefficient waste of time .... today I spent an hour working on another category - I totally ignored the pool of sites waiting this time and just went to Google and searched for sites - I added 7 really good ones with unique and valuable content .... not one of them had been submitted .. much more satisfying use of my volunteer time. And the category is now much more valuable for the DMOZ user (which is really what counts) and that pool of unreviewed sites is still sitting there....

Submitting multiple times is spam. Hopefully it will overwrite the previous one, but in some of my categories that I have got up to date, and the sites gets rejected, the new submission turns up and has to be deleted AGAIN....that takes time

If people are unhappy about the wait to get into DMOZ, don't blame DMOZ ..blame your fellow webmasers who waste all our time.

CBP

[cbp]

canistotasoftware

Sorry, I should have responded to this:

Don't forget where this thread started:
1) You spammed DMOZ --> advice was given to help

Obviously, I know more about this than I can publically say ... sufice to say that this was the case. I privately contacted the orginally poster with some more details .... trust me - a lot of work was created for DMOZ editor in this particular case.

CBP

[canistotasoftware]

cbp,

I am in no way disputing the daunting task that the editors face nor the abuse you have to deal with especially in the various forums thoughout the web. Sorry I missed the fact you are an editor. Was mainly trying to clarify the fact that multiple submissions by webmasters in general and not specifically refering to the original posters case, hurts them alot more than they might realize by overwriting previous submissions though I do not consider it spamming per se as far as DMOZ is concerned. Many webmasters rightly or wrongly consider a link on DMOZ as the holy grail of links and many do not realize the proper procedures for getting listed or the long wait that is ahead of most of them after submitting. As far as previously rejected sites being submitted over again, though I can see how this can get tedious for editors and bordering on spam, I believe it is in part an issue with the fact that DMOZ does not notify webmasters of the fact that they have been denied a listing. I am not trying to debate whether or not that is a good policy but believe it is in part a reason why you do receive multiple submissions in those cases.

[cbp]

I believe it is in part an issue with the fact that DMOZ does not notify webmasters of the fact that they have been denied a listing

This gets debated a lot. I think I am right in saying this (...but I stand to be corrected) that the majority of editors would not support this. The primary reason being that the minute a site is rejected that is attempting to stay "under the radar scope" and get multiple listing for multiple domains - they know they have been caught --> they can then immediately try again with a different URL with a different tactic until they get in undetected.

I edit in "info" categories --- not even a very spam prone area, but a lot of the rejections I do are from sites that are pretending to be info sites with minimal, copied or bad content - the sole purpose of some of the sites is to drive them to the shopping site that is already listed in shopping (or waiting there). Imagine the lengths that some of them might go to, to get a listing in the info category!!! - if they knew the minute they were rejected, they can then try again with a different strategy .... Personally, I think its better that they do not know they have been rejected, as it keeps them wondering and we buy a lot of time before the next one (or hopefully they have given up).

The sad thing is I do list affiliate sites and sites that appear to be 'feeder' sites for shopping sites in the info categories I edit .... but the spammers have not yet worked out how to do it .... its not difficult --> all you have to do is provide unique and valuable content (most of them have crap content) ....

I guess it comes down to trade-offs between informing the good and legit webamsters of a listing or not (and maybe the reasons) vs trying to keep the bad and non-legit webmasters at bay...

CBP

[canistotasoftware]

Originally Posted by cbp

....

I guess it comes down to trade-offs between informing the good and legit webamsters of a listing or not (and maybe the reasons) vs trying to keep the bad and non-legit webmasters at bay...

CBP

Like I said there is no reason to debate the policies that DMOZ has in place because for the most part they have very valid reasons for being in place, the hard part is making people understand the reasons behind them and for DMOZ editors (not directed at you) to realize that many times legitimate webmasters get caught in the middle and end up doing things that could be avoided if they were more informed by DMOZ. A tough job for you guys though some editors handle it a lot worse than it sounds like you do.