Importance of Site Map

[poab]

Normally I'd prefer to limit my posts to one per thread unless I have something particularly valuable to add but seeming as everyone on the planet disagrees with me :) I think I'm allowed a second:

The arguments presented here are limited very much by their adherence to the notion of 'pages' which I'm afraid is already old hat in web design. Very few sites are constructed in this manner anymore.

Equally I'm yet to see anyone, provide a real argument as to why a site map is so important; something that cannot be bested by good content and well structured mark-up.

Somebody please - prove me wrong instead of stamping your feet because you always have and always will build a site map without even thinking.

[Dave Hawley]

Originally Posted by poab

The arguments presented here are limited very much by their adherence to the notion of 'pages' which I'm afraid is already old hat in web design. Very few sites are constructed in this manner anymore.

Not sure what that means. Don't all sites have 'pages'?

Equally I'm yet to see anyone, provide a real argument as to why a site map is so important; something that cannot be bested by good content and well structured mark-up.

It gives the user another choice of navigation.

It gives the site a page with good keyword anchor text.

I helps spiders index all pages when/if a site uses forms of navigation that spiders cannot follow.

It ends up being another page in Google.

Somebody please - prove me wrong instead of stamping your feet because you always have and always will build a site map without even thinking.

Now it's time for you to stop feet stompimg and provide an argument as to why one shouldn't build a site map?

[Mel]

Originally Posted by poab

Normally I'd prefer to limit my posts to one per thread unless I have something particularly valuable to add but seeming as everyone on the planet disagrees with me :) I think I'm allowed a second:

The arguments presented here are limited very much by their adherence to the notion of 'pages' which I'm afraid is already old hat in web design. Very few sites are constructed in this manner anymore.

Equally I'm yet to see anyone, provide a real argument as to why a site map is so important; something that cannot be bested by good content and well structured mark-up.

Somebody please - prove me wrong instead of stamping your feet because you always have and always will build a site map without even thinking.

Well Poab, the search engines rank pages not sites, so you'll have to forgive our preoccupation with pages, but that said, a sitemap is a page which not only helps those uses who can't figure out how that state of the art menu works, but provides a convenient set of all the links on one page which saves bots from having to look in every nook and cranny of every page to find all the links.

If its well built it will provide a legitimate set of anchor text links to every page in the site which helps the rankings of all the pages.

Other than that? 'cause Google said so.

[poab]

Now it's time for you to stop feet stompimg and provide an argument as to why one shouldn't build a site map?

LOL :)

Having read my previous post I think it comes across as more than a little agressive, sorry if I offended anyone. I still think I'm right though.

I'm not suggesting that there is a good reason not to add a site map. I'm saying there isn't a good reason to add one which is an important distinction. A site map does not exist by default, you have to add one, so the question is not why shouldn't I? but rather why should I?

Well Poab, the search engines rank pages not sites, so you'll have to forgive our preoccupation with pages,

Nope - search engines rank content. Or, files if you prefer. A 'page'is a non-dynamic static file less and less of which are being used.

It gives the user another choice of navigation.

Why is one form of navigation not sufficient? Ask yourself why you need to offer the user another use. I don't know how to say this more clearly If your navigation is not sufficient then there's something wrong with your navigation.

It gives the site a page with good keyword anchor text.

Conventional wisdom would suggest that all your content should have good keyword anchor text.

I helps spiders index all pages when/if a site uses forms of navigation that spiders cannot follow.

If search engines are priority then why on earth would you use a form of navigation that search engines can't follow? Because it looks pretty? You have your priorities confused.

It ends up being another page in Google.

By that token the more of your 'pages' you have the better. Promotional writing is always about conveying a message in the most condensed form possible. If you prefer to ignore that then keep writing content until you have a site with content the length of War and Peace - it would have the same effect.

a sitemap is a page which not only helps those uses who can't figure out how that state of the art menu works

Again why are you using a state of the art menu? Previously I refered to a menu built with standards compliant mark-up and styled with CSS. It's called standards compliant for a reason, and it has a considerably better chance on a search engine than anything else.

saves bots from having to look in every nook and cranny of every page to find all the links

If your site's structured properly then bots will find it as easy as users to access all of your site.

If its well built it will provide a legitimate set of anchor text links to every page in the site which helps the rankings of all the pages

Hooray! One good reason :)

Other than that? 'cause Google said so.

Oh please...has it occured to you that google (and all search engines) want to index as many sites as possible, and site map recommendations are for those people who aren't building sites that enable easy indexing?



Still not convinced, but I'd prefer not to continue highjacking the thread. Thanks for your thought though.

[DrTandem1]

There are different ways to construct or design a site map. This depends on your site. Some use graphical layouts. These are great for the human visitor, but the search engines will have a difficult time indexing them, if at all.

I would recommend visiting other sites and taking note of how they did it. This will give you ideas on what you may want to do.

In actuality, your Home page should be a site map. To be practical, you want it to be pleasing to the eye of the visitor and not just a lot of links. So, you focus on key areas with the Home page and include the site map for both the human and robot visitors.

Alphabetical listings are okay, but you never can be sure how the visitor will phrase their search. Will it be "red paint" or "cherry red paint?" So, I would recommend headings that are very generic and then possibly a sub-listing of the topic that could be either alphabetized or categorized further.

[Dave Hawley]

site map does not exist by default, you have to add one, so the question is not why shouldn't I? but rather why should I?

No page (or file if you prefer) exists by default. You could put the same blanket argument to any page (file). In fact, that one would apply to everything.

Why is one form of navigation not sufficient?

It should be, but the fact is many aren't. A Site map is a good 'basic' foundation of site.

[/quote]Conventional wisdom would suggest that all your content should have good keyword anchor text.

Yes that's right and a Site map is considered 'content' is the eye of the spider.....grasshopper ;o)

By that token the more of your 'pages' you have the better. Promotional writing is always about conveying a message in the most condensed form possible. If you prefer to ignore that then keep writing content until you have a site with content the length of War and Peace - it would have the same effect.

Totally dissagree. "Promotional writing" and Web site marketing are 2 different beasts. "Site maps" fits the latter.

Another "If" in reply of a question you asked. If my grandma had &^%$ she'd be my Granpa :)

Oh please...has it occured to you that google (and all search engines) want to index as many sites as possible, and site map recommendations are for those people who aren't building sites that enable easy indexing?[quote]

Err yes. Are you trying to say there isn't loads of content out there that Google hasn't got?

Anyway goodnight back in the morning.

[mawells]

Posh, I don't think anyone is saying that you HAVE to have a site map for every site. But, there are ocassions when a site, by design, needs to use dynamic navigation.

Case in point: Site has 50 pages - that's not a terrible lot of pages, but 50 links running down the side of each page is awkward to use. I know you can list just the main links and then drill down as you go to each main page topic, but I am of the belief that a site visitor should be able to access ANY page from ANY page. In other words, once they land on your home page (or any other page of your site) they should be no more than 1 click away from their intended destination. With a site of 20, 30, 50 pages or more it requires some drop-down menus, usually written in JavaScript.

Now, this is great navigation for most site visitors (as long as they have JavaScript enabled), but it's a road block for many search engine robots.

So, to help those robots and those visitors with JavaScript disabled, we provide a Site Map. Is that so terrible?

[Conficio]

Originally Posted by poab

Nope - search engines rank content. Or, files if you prefer. A 'page'is a non-dynamic static file less and less of which are being used.

Sorry poab,
search engines have no glue what content is, in the human understanding. They try to mimic with primitive ways to help you find something that has a similarity with what you are looking for. Content means semantics and SE have no idea of it, at least not yet and the practical ones.

I also don't think file = page. Because the pages I see on my screen contain many files, that contribute to the rendering of it - HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Images, etc. With todays capabilities the page I see might be even dynamic (animated gif, Flash, Java Applets, reloading JavaScript), so I'm not sure about the non-dynamic part. And I don't know what is used instead of pages in your sense?

I'd say a page is the result of requesting a URL and rendering it in a browser. Even if it is composed from multiple URLs it is what I get to see till for at least a while or till I request another URL (click, etc.).

Just my five cents to the wisdom here
K<o>

[Conficio]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

In actuality, your Home page should be a site map.

Hi DrTandem,
I'd advise against this. Your home page should be your newsletter.

Think of it in the analogy of a book. Do you always go through the Index, when you return to a book? how often do you return to your books anyhow? what makes people come back is news. So put up a collection of the new things on your home page and write it as a news paper does. Post your current sales items or your latest client story.

It also gives your visitor an idea that you are active and vibrant, especially if you post interesting content with dates. Sure make it also easy to get an idea what you are all about.

In addition, most links are pointing to your home page. So you get people to link to something that is always fresh. Off course if someone links to you with a create link text, but links to the home page, not to the permanent home of this content, that will loose its positive effect, the moment you post a new new son your home page. But so is life and most people will monitor your site for a while in order to understand your structure, before they link. It works for all the blogs and their perma-links.

No offense, just a different opinion

K<o>

[DrTandem1]

Conficio-

If you are going to quote a stentence of mine, please keep it in the context in which it was meant which was:

<In actuality, your Home page should be a site map. To be practical, you want it to be pleasing to the eye of the visitor and not just a lot of links. So, you focus on key areas with the Home page and include the site map for both the human and robot visitors.>

The second sentence was a part of the same thought and agrees with what you said. So, in essence, you agree with me. "Pleasing to the eye" is meant to covey that there is an attraction to a human. This can be in the form of colors, design and/or content.

The last part of that paragragraph states that the Home page best serves as the gateway to the main parts of the site and the site map is the detailed and all inclusive listing of pages.

[Dave Hawley]

In actuality, your Home page should be a site map. To be practical, you want it to be pleasing to the eye of the visitor and not just a lot of links. So, you focus on key areas with the Home page and include the site map for both the human and robot visitors.

Not good advise at all! Your homepage is just like the cover of a book. Unless you site is less than about 10 pages there is no way "your Home page should be a site map".

A site map is a site map a homepage is a homepage. Other than having a link to your site map on your home page, the 2 should never be confused.

[mrrobertstv]

we added a sitemap to our overall layout during the new design and it appears the spiders are visiting our site on a regular basis:
Googlebot (Google) 5048+58 117.13 MB 15 May 2004 - 18:16
Inktomi Slurp 3087+632 82.90 MB 15 May 2004 - 18:11
Alexa (IA Archiver) 1682+21 39.63 MB 15 May 2004 - 17:32
Unknown robot (identified by 'crawl') 824+30 19.99 MB 15 May 2004 - 14:24
Unknown robot (identified by 'robot') 827+13 16.01 MB 15 May 2004 - 18:19
WISENutbot (Looksmart) 327+4 4.86 MB 14 May 2004 - 18:16
Unknown robot (identified by hit on 'robots.txt') 0+123 20.49 KB 15 May 2004 - 13:22
Jeeves 77+23 2.18 MB 15 May 2004 - 12:53
Unknown robot (identified by 'spider') 48+14 1.39 MB 15 May 2004 - 17:30
Voila 1+1 34.37 KB 10 May 2004 - 17:10

[Conficio]

Dear DrTandem1,
your leave me confused. Do I understand you right

The Home page should be a site map, but pleasing for the human eye, which makes it a newsletter?

:) :) :)
K<o>

[Jörn Malek]

After all this interesting opinions I decided to put a menu and AdSense ads on the site map: See here the map # 1 of 16. http://www.1-costaricalink.com/site_map_1.htm. My question now is, do I have to reduce the amount of links because of that, or since the menu is on the bottom of the page it does not matter. Is this site map / alphabetical list / index / newsletter / now enough pleasing for the roaming eye in your opinion?

Have a happy day
Jörn