Is anything about IE an advantage? Hopefully IE 8 will be a revelation.

Given that all browsers are free I recommend that everybody tries them all then settles on the one they prefer. I mean you have Opera, IE, Firefox, K-Meleon, Safari (still beta on Windows) and countless IE shells such as Maxthon and Avant.



Wonder what Windows would be like if it used the Gecko engine to render it's Windows stuff instead of the IE engine.

__________________
Carbonize

Yes for webmasters, I agree. I use three of them daily.

For the online surfers I definitely disagree. If we as webmasters know that one browser is more secure than another browser, it is a good advice to advice them to use that browser.

100 million and more identity thefts in the USA in 2007. How many of them could have been avoided by using another browser?

Have you never been contacted by a surfer that tells that hers/his favourite home page has been lost, and (s)he ask you how (s)he shall get it back?

Conclusion:
Security is the most important aspect for the average surfer, and (s)he have to get a good and up do date advice on which browser you as a professional think is best.

A page is not viewable in a browser. Can the reason be security (e.g. bad redirect)?

What about Opera 10.0? What about XML driven sites?

more precisely this

Please review my XML/XSLT site

link.

Page search (CTRLF) on the page. KW's:

Google

Internet Explorer

Opera

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Nothing puts me off a site faster than it telling me that it looks better in a certain browser at a certain resolution.

BTW that XML driven site renders fine in Firefox 3.

I should start a debate on if the direction web design is taking is a good thing or not. With some of the CSS level 3 specs it is getting more like programming and less like designing.


Oh and as to the identity theft problem whilst using a good browser would help (all three major browsers now have phishing filters built in) nothing will replace common sense and better educating people to the danger of phishing and how to avoid it. And yes I know not all identity theft is via phishing sites. Networking sites such as Facebook and MySpace have also got a lot to answer for letting people post their details on a web page without first informing them of the possible dangers.


I've always felt their should be an international organisation that can police the internet properly. With powers to do such things as close down hosts who happily host abusers. Countries that ignore this organisations advice could get their connection to the rest of the world cut or restricted. Draconian I know but I can see no other way of stopping companies like LayeredTech and all the piracy sites.

__________________
Carbonize

Kevin Yank writes about

Simply javascript: The Three Layers of the Web [JavaScript & AJAX Tutorials]

In my viwe there are four layers:

What can be done at the lowest level on the web server

On an Apache server:

Network and System Administration I 10

Testing my sites in this

Search engine SPAM detector

and I get a lot of hidden text warnings, even if all of them are part of the DreamWeaver templates (navigation). A nightmare If I have to correct that.

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The difference is that there is a released product named Firebird, that Firefox was never released under the name in question, and that not all here know of such.

And, why are you making such a big deal of what I clearly stated as being a "small" quibble?

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Was this intended as reply to another?

Given that my post to which you replied was re. a comparison of IE6 & IE7, I suspect so.

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Firefox is absolutely the best browser there is. I really like the add-ons. It makes the browser more personal and fits to your every needs. Highly recommended.

It was a general answer. By you above, I meant a person. As a webmaster, I think you know Opera well enough and may be better than me.

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Sarcasm? Webmaster is just a term used for someone who has built a website. It in no way means that person is any good at web design or web site building. I know plenty of webmasters who's only skill is being able to edit templates in Frontpage.

As to a webmaster knowing a web browser well that's hokum. A lot of webmasters, specially those covered by my previous paragraph, seem to think that either IE is the only web browser or that so long as it looks right in IE it will look right to everyone.

I personally test my work in as many browsers as possible. On my laptop I have IE6, IE7, Firefox 2, Firefox 3, Opera 9.25, Safari 3 and K-Meleon 1.3 (I think). I also have a Ubuntu Live CD so I can see what they look like in various Linux browsers and, when I can get hold of him, a friend of mine tests on his Mac.

__________________
Carbonize

Absolutely?

Which tool is absolutely the best for working with nuts and bolts?

1> An open-end wrench:
2> A box wrench;
3> A crescent wrench;
4> A pipe wrench;
5> A ratchet wrench (socket plus ratchet bar);
6> A torque wrench (socket plus torque bar);
7> Channel-lock pliers;
8> Vice-grip pliers; or,
9> Other tool.

A browser is but a tool; and, as with other tools, there is no such thing as one that is "absolutely the best" for any task. Which is the better suited for the task at hand depends on what that specific task is, what tools are available, and how skilled the user is at using each.

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kjun's post makes a statement that is neither absolute nor categorical.

That such is not the former is clearly evidenced by his use of the phrase "I think."

That it is not the latter is evidenced by the fact that his post was specifically directed to and about me.

Furthermore, you assume that the word "webmaster" referenced myself rather than he himself, even though its placement strongly suggests otherwise. Even were such assumption correct, my inclusion in the class "webmaster" should not be taken to mean that he excludes me from all other classes. As for how he may have concluded that I should be considered a member of said class, and how he knows that I am a member of other pertinent classes, is left as an exercise for yourself.

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http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

His message referenced webmasters and claimed they should know about different web browsers. My response is in answer to this and does not matter to whom he was referring or what he knows about that person. My post was about the fact that the term webmaster is usually self imposed and does not in any way indicate a level of knowledge or skill.

For once it would be nice to see a post from you that is not trying to attack someone by quoting their post out of context.

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Carbonize

To the contrary, kgun made no claim re. webmasters.

Interesting, considering that that is precisely what you are doing re. kguns post!

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The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

Looks like a reference to webmasters to me.

And was I attacking Kgun? I think not.

It's idiots like you that made people like myself and a few others stop coming here a few years ago and now I am starting to see that things haven't improved any since then.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all.

--

Now to get the topic back on track have you ever tried the Off By One browser? Try your websites in that for a laugh. It's a self contained browser that only supports HTML 3.02.

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Carbonize

Not only have you demonstrated a tendency to be less than precise in your writing, you've also evidenced a bent for uncritical reading.

Get someone else to explain kgun's post to you; my efforts in that regard are at an end.

As for your reference to "(my) sites," you've assumed facts not in evidence.

And, your ad hominem remarks are unworthy of response.

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http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

That's the thing about reading. Things can be taken the wrong way. So unless you are kgun under a different name how can you say for sure what he meant? You appear to be the one with a problem understanding peoples posts since you constantly have to criticise them. But then we both know that you try and put people down in an effort to make yourself clever. It's the sort of thing I thought I'd left behind when I left the schooling system over 15 years ago.

Go ahead and post another load of tripe. I certainly won't be responding unless you actually post something intelligent and relevant to the topic of this thread.

__________________
Carbonize

I look forward to your proofs of such claims.

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And at this conjure to I say - Deepsand - you have reported a post, yet from having read the entire thread I have to say that you need to concentrate on the topic. Not on individuals with whom you disagree with. Always provide as much evidence to support a post as is possible. Please stay on topic.

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I have noticed that Mozilla crashes a little more than IE.

It also "forgets" passwords sometimes.

And sometimes sites do not appear properly in Mozilla.

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Are you speaking of the Mozilla browser, or of Mozilla Firefox?

I've observed very many instance of IE appearing to lose both user-IDs & passwords, which are stored in Window's "Protected Storage" area.

However, I've yet to observe such with Firefox, which stores such data in its own, backed-up files.

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http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

I mean the Mozilla Firefox Browser.

I still use it, but am becoming aware that it is not quite as good as some people claim.

I mean, it's good, but it does unpredictable stuff, sometimes. Like not recalling passwords.

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What version of FF are you using?

Have you noticed the problem on multiple machines? If you've observed it on one machine only, the problem may lie outside FF itself.

I'm still using 1.5, which does have some memory usage problems, with the effect that too many open windows/tabs can bring a machine to its knees.

As for being as good as some claim, I find that those who claim that FF is without peer are, like many of the Mac fanatics, usually zealots who simply despise Microsoft.

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http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

I personally use FF 3 beta 2. As to sites not appearing properly in Firefox this is down to sloppy coding by the web designer and not down to any problem with Firefox.

If you want something that uses the Gecko engine but has a smaller footprint that Firefox try K-Meleon which seems faster to me.

__________________
Carbonize

May be the heading of this thread should have been changed to.

Is Mozilla (FF) the browser with most add ons / plugins and toolbars???

Examples:

1. Firebug - Web Development Evolved Great tool.
2. Firebug Lite
3. Spread Firefox | The Home of Firefox Community Marketing I do not share the message (If you don't already have the fastest, most secure, most customizable web browser, get it for free today!) in the Download window.
4. Firefox - Download the new firefox web browser

Related???: FireBug

Question: A lot of third party plugins and toolbars. What is the security consequence?

P.S. In addition I doubt the other messages. Fastest? Is the code more compact than Opera's? What I know is that when Opera was 300 Kb, IE was 15 Mb! Opera could run on a 386 machine. IE could not. Nevertheless, my redcarpetranking above is based on security. As ctabuk has done, you have to read this thread at last one (preferrably two) time(s) to understand why.

Conclusion february 2008: Use the latest version of Opera for secure surfing, especially when you buy online. That does not imply that you shall not use common sence. There is no 100 % secure web browser.

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I am using the latest version, and the problems I noticed existed on two different computers, a laptop and a new tower system.

I recall criticising FF to someone who was clearly a fanatic and a bit of a twit. too! His 'killer' response was: "Well, you can't expect too much from Firefox! It is free, you know!"

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In a sense the only web browser (in my personal view the worst of the three, especially on security) that is not free is IE when it comes preinstalled on a new computer. The free version of Opera is AdDriven. There is a paid ad free version. Opera would most probably not existed without ad and the paid version.

When you buy a new Dell, you can buy it cheaper without OS (and browser). You simply configure the computer yourself and pay for what you need.

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Last I checked there is only one version of Opera now and it's free. They stopped trying to make people pay for it a few years ago.

Or am I wrong?

BTW in my opinion Opera and Firefox are as secure as each other. Both have exploits which they patch regularly.

__________________
Carbonize

1. One example in a hurry. Try dragging the URL of a page to the desktop in the three browsers. Do you see any difference? Can it be security related?
2. What do you know about security zones in IE, and security settings in FF (is it still based on privileges?) and Opera? Do you regard security zones and privileges as secure?
3. I thought there was a paid verson of Opera. But I am no more related to Opera than you aside from the fact that the browser is made in Norway.

Webmasters should of course test a page in as many browsers as possible. There is one important reason to use FireFox when developing pages, Firebug. Does that tool test for JavaScript browser security?

Where is your cat? Hidden fox agenda?

Side remark: K-Meleon, not "Kamelon" = Norwegian for camelot

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I think this thread will go on and on. A temporary final remark.

By best browser, I mean best for the surfer where I put all the weight on security to rank browsers, as long as a browser renders standard normal pages normally. Bad redirects, pop ups, ActiveX controls are examples of what I personally regard as a potential security risk. More pages should be blocked by a browser. Warning on bad pages is done wrongly in somer browsers, IMO. Some browsers give the impression that they are secure. They are not.

Toolbars and plugins from third parties are a security risk. I surfed the web as administrator, and my computer was infected. It was just after a toolbar upgrade without saying that was the reason.

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Is a fox a cat? Last I checked it was more kin to the dog family

I admit I use Firefox as my primary browser. But I have cookies disabled and use SpywareBlaster and SpyBot to immunise my system. I have several browsers on my laptop for testing and occasionally use a different one when surfing just because I can.

Given your stance on security I think you would like K-Meleon since it makes it easy to disable things like redirects, images, cookies, javascript etc.


My final stance (probably) is that no browser is 100% secure (despite what they might say) but IE probably has the most holes or is possibly just the most targeted as it is the most used.


Opera is classed as more secure for the same reason, in my opinion, Macs are. People who make worms or web pages to exploit browsers are not going to make a worm/web page that wil only affect a very small percentage of people.

__________________
Carbonize

Ok, some very personal opinions.

1. From a birds eye view, the internet, the infra structure for the World Wide Web, is a collection of computer nodes (web servers) that delivers documents based on a DOM node tree.
2. Most of the documents are a static HTML tag soup like (X)HTML with bad taste. There is one main data structure, a node tree.
3. Here is one example that I made today. How many use definition lists? How many use blockquote correctly? Look at the source.
4. HTML is very easy to use, but was a disaster from the very beginning. From the very beginning is should be based on SGML or alt least the strict subset XML that allows a dynamic tag set and implement strict well-formedness rules.
5. There should be more flexibility on datastructures than node trees, for a web resource residing on an URI (IRI).
6. Web standards are a nightmare, especially how they are implemented in different browsers.
7. A better internet is being build and a science of the web is emerging (the site is down here when writing these few lines). Hopefully the new infrastructure will open for stricter browser and markup standards and more flexibilities in datastructures without giving up a model comparable to HTML in simplicity.
8. Security: The new internet should implement best default practices on security in a pattern or class that can be plugged directly into your sites code, preferrably by a one liner. The same could apply to web browsers.

Related WPW thread:
Ignore the misunderstandings that have produced the present world.

(C) kgun and WPW. Set a standard and link to this post if you got some ideas from it and make an article out of those ideas.

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Would the "latest version" by any chance be the beta version of FF3?

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Firefox may be the best browser for webmasters, because of all the plugins, that you have to trust (I will still not reccomend it for the surfer). But there are security reason to test a page thoroughly in Opera.

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. o 0 (And how much does kgun get paid by Opera?)

I have said it before, I'll say it again. As far as I am concerned Opera is no more secure than Firefox.

__________________
Carbonize

Is FF's security model still based on previleges?

Nobody has answered the simple question given above, related to the fact that it is impossible to drag an URL from the address field in Opera to the desktop. Since you say:

<quote>
I have said it before, I'll say it again. As far as I am concerned Opera is no more secure than Firefox.
</quote>

you should be able to answer that simple question.

I think none of us can say 100 % since, we do not know the code. I have my preferences that is not consiously related to the country where the browser is made.

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Not a single penny. I was an affiliate (I do not have control over all my pages) but think I have deleted most of the outdated banners.

If I had any relation to Opera, the first thing I would advice them to, is to use more and may be more professional affilate providers. Norwegians have traditionally been horrible on ad.

Example:
Simula (multiple inheritance in the 1960's - modern OOP landuages do not have that) and BETA (patterns, compact and still ahead of time). Strostrup (a Dane) made C++. Another made C# that may be billion industry. A Dane is as far as I know also involved in Ruby, that is too simple for some projects, but simple enough for Average Joe's ad site or online shop.

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What is it about Opera that would make a typical user who gets a computer, plugs it in, has access to Internet Explorer, want to spend additional money?

What does it do that IE doesn't?

__________________

Have you read this thread?

My private apriori (Bayesian - I have a course on the master level) confidence interval estimate:

Spam / scam should in the USA, at least be reduced by 20 - 30 % by using Opera as intensively as IE. If you disagree, reread this whole tread again before you reply on the robustness of that estimate.

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For me mozilla is best. There a lot of add-ons that you can use that can ease your burden.

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