My Rant For The Day.

janeth · #1 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 01:12 PM

This is my rant for the day or at lest one of my rants for today.

It seems that I can’t get through a day without having to spend a couple hours trying to talk a client out of doing something crazy.

I’m only the designer and should give the client what he/she wants, but I have a hard time not adding in my two cents and sometimes even refusing to do a design because I disagree with the direction the site is taking.

I spent two hours talking on the phone with a “could be” future client trying to explain to them my thoughts on why I disagreed with what they were doing.

It ended with me telling them I didn’t feel that I was the right designer for them and even had to tell them that, 5 times before they understood.

For some reason people really have a hard time understanding that a visitor to their site could careless what the site looks like.

They have come to the website to find information, buy a product or be entertained not for a flash intro page, a cute little guy typing away at his computer or the little stat counter that shows how little visitors their website has really had.

They don’t care about the colors of their site, the pictures in the header, their logo, colors, fonts or anything else they might think is important.

They are there for a purpose and have a goal in mind and could careless about all the other stuff.

Don’t get me wrong the design of the site does effect the end user.

But not in the way a lot of people seem to think.

While the visitor to their site could careless about the color of the site, the colors do effect him/her.

In most cases the site visitor is not even aware of the effect the colors have on them.

Some colors have more influence then others but all colors do influence their emotions.

For example blue is a calming, peaceful, and trusting color while red is anger, impulsive and an action color.

Being in the design business I feel the colors should either copy their off line site or be used to enhance the users experience.

I don’t think we should build a pink website because pink is your favorite color.

I also disagree with using a font because the font is neat looking.

Large easy to read fonts are the best in my way of thinking.

The easer it is to read what you have to say the better the chances are that a visitor will take the time to read it.

Another crazy thing people want to do is add scrolling text and moving pictures.

These will only distract the eye of the reader and make the text more difficult to read as will using crazy font colors or constantly changing the colors of the font.

Something else I see a lot of people wanting to do is add pictures into the header that have nothing to do with the site.

You have 3 seconds to let your visitor know what your site is about.

If you add pictures of pretty flowing rivers while trying to sell pigs online this will only cause confusion and cause the visitor to leave in hopes of finding his/her perfect pig some where else.

So if you’re selling pigs, then put pictures of pigs in the header.

The header is the first thing people see when entering your site, by using appropriate pictures in the header it helps give an understanding of what your site is about.

It’s also a good idea to put a nicely designed logo in your header that tells something about your business. I know most people could careless rather or not you have a logo but a logo does help to build trust and credibility.

Something else I find funny is the all about me text everyone wants to place on their home page.

No one cares about you or your business; they only want to know what’s in it for them.

So the first line of text should tell the site visitor why they should even consider spending more then 3 seconds on your site.

What can you do for me?

I could go on with my rant all day but the more I type the better I feel.

But before I end my rant I would like to rant about one last thing.

Why do people feel the navigation on their site should be different from everyone else’s?

The navigations is an important part of your site, trying to come up with something original is just crazy.

As a site visitor I don’t want to spend an hour trying to figure out how to go to the next page of your site.

Just make the navigation the same as everyone else’s and be happy your site visitor decided to stay long enough to look through your site.

Ok, I’m through with my rant now and I can go back to work.

iwebgeek · #2 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 05:45 PM

Lol!

If you can't fight them, join them.

That's why I'm now on payroll for the very company who hired me a year ago as a freelancer to design their website.

Now I do with it as I please because the general manager soon saw that I knew what I was doing.

php3ch0 · #3 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 05:54 PM

!!! The (paying) customer is always right!

In my view if you have advised them but they still want to go ahead you can only go back and say "I told you so"

thrashmangler · #4 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 05:59 PM

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID -

By the way it works for EVERYTHING IN LIFE !!!!

janeth · #5 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwebgeek

Lol!

If you can't fight them, join them.

Or just stay away from them (:

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwebgeek

That's why I'm now on payroll for the very company who hired me a year ago as a freelancer to design their website.

Now I do with it as I please because the general manager soon saw that I knew what I was doing.

If I could find a company willing to pay me what I need I might do the samething.

I enjoy the business for the most part but there are times when people just wear me down.

janeth · #6 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by php3ch0

!!! The (paying) customer is always right!

Unless he's wrong. (-:

He's not a customer until we agree on the work that's about to be done. If we can't agree on the work then he'll never be a customer. (-:

Quote:

Originally Posted by php3ch0

In my view if you have advised them but they still want to go ahead you can only go back and say "I told you so"

In my humble opinion, I feel that if I agree to do the job for someone then I’m also accepting that I understand and agree with the plan they’ve explained to me.

If I can’t agree with the plan they’ve explained to me I feel it’s best to go in different directions.

janeth · #7 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrashmangler

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID -

By the way it works for EVERYTHING IN LIFE !!!!

I agree, it's just sad that so many people just don't get it.

holyhttp · #8 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 06:56 PM

Once you are done exposing to the potential customers the pros & cons of the direction s/he wants her/his project to take, I think you can take the next step with a clean conscience. Either you want nothing to do with that project or take the project and focus only on what the customer wants. You get your check, s/he gets a fancy looking web site with all the bells and whistles.

Do you want to make a living out of this business or not. If you were working for a company wouldn't you do the job your boss asks you to do even if you do not agree with his approach?

Remember, the customer is always right.

noel123 · #9 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 07:14 PM

As many have said - " The customer is always right!"
You seem to be locked into your own model of the world here. You have explained the ifs and buts and if the customer still wants to proceed with their own ideas shouldn't they be permitted to? The story reminds me of guy who went to buy a pontiac car having made up his mind a pontiac was what he wanted - the saleperson said you don't want a pontiac you want a bmw and proceeded to explain the benefits over the pontiac. The guy was so angry. He had made up his mind he wanted a pontiac so left the shop in disgust and said he would never return.

craigmn3 · #10 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 07:35 PM

Do it there way....then when they realize it isn't going to work there way, make sure you left a relationship intact so they'll come back to you to do changes

They are paying you do what they want....offer suggestions, share your knowledge, but if they insist on a pigs rear end as a background do it.

Craig
Edited by mod Webnauts. You may have links to your web site only in your signature.

Feydakin · #11 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 08:21 PM

I'm with Janeth on this one.. These types of clients are never any fun to work with.. First they will argue with you "the designer" about how to design.. Then when it doesn't sell they will either fire you and be angry at the money they spent, or fire you, be angry at the money they spent, and tell everyone else you are a crook..

There are too many good clients out there that will listen to worry about keeping the ones that won't.. We'll let someone else deal with those..

janeth · #12 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyhttp

Once you are done exposing to the potential customers the pros & cons of the direction s/he wants her/his project to take, I think you can take the next step with a clean conscience. Either you want nothing to do with that project or take the project and focus only on what the customer wants. You get your check, s/he gets a fancy looking web site with all the bells and whistles.

I would also be associated with the type of website I do not want to be associated with. This could hurt my business far more then the check would be worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyhttp

Do you want to make a living out of this business or not.

We make a very good living out of the business now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyhttp

If you were working for a company wouldn't you do the job your boss asks you to do even if you do not agree with his approach?

This is why I don't have a boss (-;

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyhttp

Remember, the customer is always right.

Unless their wrong. (:

janeth · #13 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel123

As many have said - " The customer is always right!"
You seem to be locked into your own model of the world here. You have explained the ifs and buts and if the customer still wants to proceed with their own ideas shouldn't they be permitted to?

Yes they should but with another web design company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel123

The story reminds me of guy who went to buy a pontiac car having made up his mind a pontiac was what he wanted - the saleperson said you don't want a pontiac you want a bmw and proceeded to explain the benefits over the pontiac. The guy was so angry. He had made up his mind he wanted a pontiac so left the shop in disgust and said he would never return.

If the guy was not selling pontiacs then it really didn't matter. (-;

janeth · #14 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigmn3

Do it there way....then when they realize it isn't going to work there way, make sure you left a relationship intact so they'll come back to you to do changes

They are paying you do what they want....offer suggestions, share your knowledge, but if they insist on a pigs rear end as a background do it.

Craig

If I did the site chances are in a year from now they would decide there was no way to make money online and continue with their off line site.

But I stood strong enough on my decision that it was not only the wrong way to go but it was so wrong that I was unwilling to be associated with the site.

I think when the first site does not work they may decide to give my ideas a try before deciding you can’t make money online.

janeth · #15 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feydakin

I'm with Janeth on this one.. These types of clients are never any fun to work with.. First they will argue with you "the designer" about how to design.. Then when it doesn't sell they will either fire you and be angry at the money they spent, or fire you, be angry at the money they spent, and tell everyone else you are a crook..

There are too many good clients out there that will listen to worry about keeping the ones that won't.. We'll let someone else deal with those..

The first month or two they will brag to all their friends about the wonderful site that Janeth built. This will cause all their friends and customers to stay away from Janeth.

Then after about 3 months of the site not producing an income and no one wanting to use the site they will start talking about how I built this crappy site for them and they lost their hard earned money because of me.

Sometimes you make more money by not doing a job. (:

acornwebworks · #16 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 11:23 PM

Hi Janeth!

I haven't been posting to WebProWorld in a LONG time, so it's nice to be able to post to someone I like and have successfully worked with :-) How's your little girl? Not so little any more, is she :-)

Anyway, it seems to me that there's another approach you might consider taking.

Never mind spending a couple of hours with someone...I'll bet you know within a much shorter time that these folks aren't going to appreciate your advice. (And, yeah, being here in the US I'm 'assuming' the fact you're in Colombia means everything takes longer, but that's just a North American assumption. Sorry 'bout that.)

Anyway, since you know after a certain point it's not going to work, why not come up with a script for dealing with these folks?

You don't need to squander your time on them. There's no money for you in it.

You either need to convince them fairly quickly to take your professional advice...or you need to give up on them and say "It's been good talking with you. I wish you great success" then promptly hang up the darn phone.

The "script" I'm talking about would go something like this:

"I certainly can appreciate what you're asking for, but we've been in business for ___ years and the one thing we've discovered our clients have in common is that they really actually want their websites to help [make them money/get new leads/bring in new members...whatever it is the caller has as a goal].

"And THAT'S what we're experts at. That's what people pay us for, and why we've been in business successfully for ___ years.

"That being the case, we can most definitely help you achieve your goals, but we can't do it the way you're saying you want us to. It's just not possible.

[And, Janeth, you don't add any reasoning whatsoever here because you'll have already been arguing with them. Just say 'it's just not possible.']

"Now, if you'd like, I can give you the contact information for a couple of web designers who *will* create the site you say you want. They specifically focus on designing websites for their clients' wishes rather than for achieving their clients' goals. I'm sure you'll be very happy with them. And, in future, should you decide you want your website to do more, please contact me directly and we'll be happy to work with you then.

"I wish you good fortune, and thanks for contacting us."

Then hang up.

Don't waste your time on people who aren't ready for your services. You aren't going to "win". It isn't a contest. The more time you waste on them, the less time you have for making money. Use a script like the one I suggested and you'll get your message across that you're right and they're wrong. But you'll also give them permission to make a bad decision if they want and you'll help them by referring them to someone else.

Take care!

Kendall

juliemarg · #17 (**permalink**) 09-01-2006, 11:56 PM

I agree with Kendall. Back when I had my own business, I discovered that a customer who was difficult in the first 10 minutes would become a nightmare after the first 10 hours. Never would any good come from the relationship, so I learned to cut people loose immediately.

Now I work for someone else, and I have a huge repeat customer base. If a customer wants to do something crazy, I tell them that I'll help them with whatever they want me to do, but I've been doing this for 12 years and have helped hundreds of customers achieve their goals. What they are suggesting will not attract new customers, but I will help them do whatever they want to do.

philena30 · #18 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 01:11 AM

Boy can I relate. I go through this all the time, just from prospects that wanna work from home, so I can only imagine what they are trying to tell you. Hmmm.. You make me wonder if I should take the scrolling text of my project I'm working on.. lol.. well.. I have the disagree with the customer's always right. Because most of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about. I was told the same thing when I first started putting pages together. I got shot down quick.. "it's too busy" "take some of the pictures off" "take the applets off" remove this.. remove that.. I felt like they wanted to take away from my creativity. But they were really helping understand what makes a site and what doesn't. So.. I'll keep working on not being too fancy.. LOL.. see ya

grillsgt · #19 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 01:14 AM

New poster, but I've had good and bad clients... and I've created some good designs and some I'd rather forget...

I'm not taking sides... I've owned my own business for about 6 years.

I agree with Janeth in part... demanding customers are not always worth the effort or the revenue. They take their toll on your sanity. I wish I had never taken on the worst ones, but still they were learning experiences. I learned how to deal with difficult clients and now I know how to recognize a difficult client more quickly, and as previously mentioned, how to turn down their project gracefully, offering them alternative providers who might be interested in their project.

On the flip side, if you do the work that a client wants regardless of your opinion and better judgement, you don't have to "advertise" it in your online portfolio if it was truly a horrible experience. But, it might turn out to be one of your best jobs ever (aesthetically) and be worth adding to the portfolio.

Sometimes you can benefit from taking on a client despite the difference in opinion because you get the opportunity to learn and/or practice a new or rusty skill. For example, perhaps you personally don't like Flash on websites (for search engine purposes). But you understand that you need to learn it to stay competitive. Taking on a client who wants Flash gives you the opportunity to learn and practice this new skill.

You may also need to take on a difficult client if you need the work, need the money, need samples, etc. Of course, if you don't need any of this, then you can be selective in accepting clients and their projects.

One other thing to consider... while you know web design, layout, style, color, typeface, etc., the customer knows his / her business. The customer knows what works and what doesn't for the business. The customer knows what sells and what doesn't. The customer knows how to sell his / her product whether it's hard goods, soft goods, paid information or free information. That's usually stuff you, as the designer, don't know. And while what works offline doesn't always work online, sometimes it does... and sometimes the customer is right.

Duncan Pollock · #20 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 02:40 AM

Janeth: Perhaps one of the hardest parts of being in business for yourself is a recognition -- and acceptance -- that you can't please everyone and therefore you won't make a sale to everyone. What comes with the job is a need to develop the courage to say "No" to someone who's on a totally different wavelength than yours. It isn't easy, but you'll be further ahead if you choose to (albeit diplomatically and pleasantly) turn down anyone who insists on doing anything/everything against what you consider to be the correct way of going about it all.
It's a matter of principle. There are other ways than yours but, if they don't sit well with you, you should set them aside and stay true to yourself and your opinions. You may not end up quite as rich as might do if you'd agreed to do whatever you were told, but you also won't be a whole lot poorer in spirit and self-respect.
Your rant is justified and can probably be repeated in its own version by every one of us who's self-employed. But it's part of the price we have to pay for being our own boss.
Just tell them -- and yourself -- that's there's a lake over there and they have your permission, blessing, and recommendation to go jump in it.
You'll feel -- and be -- decidedly the better for it!

Duncan

TrafficProducer · #21 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 07:23 AM

Simon & Garfunkel sing about this:-

Quote:

“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” From the song The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel.

Have a contract which states something on the lines of; you will do it their way but you will not promise Traffic if done this way.

Seminole386 · #22 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 10:40 AM

The movie Forest Gump had a wonderful line; "Stupid is as stupid does." There is a difference between not understanding and being a difficult client. The person you described simply didn't understand and seemed to lack comprehension. By spending two hours on the phone you more than proved you didn't have the ability to educate him/her. You do what you can and move on. Dwell on the situation and you grow old much quicker than you should. Let it go, hug your daughter and enjoy life. Keep your glass full. :-)

janeth · #23 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acornwebworks

Hi Janeth!

I haven't been posting to WebProWorld in a LONG time, so it's nice to be able to post to someone I like and have successfully worked with :-)

It has been a long time. How have you been?

Quote:

Originally Posted by acornwebworks

How's your little girl? Not so little any more, is she :-)

She is 5 now going on 20.

I don't see her any bigger but I have found myself letting her do things I never would have dreamed of letting her do a year ago.

Like last night we went to the mall to eat and when we finished I let her go by herself back to the counter to get an ice cream.

I guess she is growing up but I still worry about her way to much. (-:

Quote:

Originally Posted by acornwebworks

(And, yeah, being here in the US I'm 'assuming' the fact you're in Colombia means everything takes longer, but that's just a North American assumption. Sorry 'bout that.)

Colombia is so bad that we do very little work here.

98% of all our work is from the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acornwebworks

Anyway, since you know after a certain point it's not going to work, why not come up with a script for dealing with these folks?

Kendall

I agree and do think it's the best way to handle it.

I’m also going to have the guys make me up something on Monday for the emails so we can handle the emails the same way.

But you are 100% correct and I think giving them a couple other design companies to go to is a good idea as well.

Its nice hearing from you again, it’s been too long.

janeth · #24 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliemarg

I agree with Kendall. Back when I had my own business, I discovered that a customer who was difficult in the first 10 minutes would become a nightmare after the first 10 hours. Never would any good come from the relationship, so I learned to cut people loose immediately.

I agree, the customers that start out hard to deal with usually continue to be hard to deal with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliemarg

Now I work for someone else, and I have a huge repeat customer base. If a customer wants to do something crazy, I tell them that I'll help them with whatever they want me to do, but I've been doing this for 12 years and have helped hundreds of customers achieve their goals. What they are suggesting will not attract new customers, but I will help them do whatever they want to do.

It also depends on the time of business your in.

If I help people plan their vacation trips then planning something crazy for someone is not going to hurt my business.

But if I’m trying to help people make money online then doing something crazy for someone could reflect back on me and hurt future business.

janeth · #25 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philena30

Boy can I relate. I go through this all the time, just from prospects that wanna work from home, so I can only imagine what they are trying to tell you. Hmmm.. You make me wonder if I should take the scrolling text of my project I'm working on.. lol.. well.. I have the disagree with the customer's always right. Because most of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about. I was told the same thing when I first started putting pages together. I got shot down quick.. "it's too busy" "take some of the pictures off" "take the applets off" remove this.. remove that.. I felt like they wanted to take away from my creativity. But they were really helping understand what makes a site and what doesn't. So.. I'll keep working on not being too fancy.. LOL.. see ya

I think the biggest problem is that people want all the neat little blinking lights, stat counters, pretty pictures in the header and all the other crazy little things they think are so neat.

When they are told it’s going to hurt the site they don’t want to hear that.

janeth · #26 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grillsgt

One other thing to consider... while you know web design, layout, style, color, typeface, etc., the customer knows his / her business. The customer knows what works and what doesn't for the business. The customer knows what sells and what doesn't. The customer knows how to sell his / her product whether it's hard goods, soft goods, paid information or free information. That's usually stuff you, as the designer, don't know. And while what works offline doesn't always work online, sometimes it does... and sometimes the customer is right.

Common sense has to come in to play at some time.

Let’s say that this customer owns a roofing company in the US.

I’ve personally never owned a roofing company but here’s my way of thinking.

I’m sitting in my house, it’s raining outside, for reasons unknown to me my roof starts to leak and seems to be getting worst by the minute. I see the weather channel is saying a bad storm is on the way.

I jump on the internet to

A. To find a local roofing company in my area that can fix my roof.
B. To watch a flash intro of people fixing a roof.
C. To watch these neat little lights follow my mouse around the screen.

While you are correct that I don’t know his business by putting myself in the consumers shoes I can figure out the best way to make his site sell. (-;

janeth · #27 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Pollock

Janeth: Perhaps one of the hardest parts of being in business for yourself is a recognition -- and acceptance -- that you can't please everyone and therefore you won't make a sale to everyone. What comes with the job is a need to develop the courage to say "No" to someone who's on a totally different wavelength than yours. It isn't easy, but you'll be further ahead if you choose to (albeit diplomatically and pleasantly) turn down anyone who insists on doing anything/everything against what you consider to be the correct way of going about it all.
It's a matter of principle. There are other ways than yours but, if they don't sit well with you, you should set them aside and stay true to yourself and your opinions. You may not end up quite as rich as might do if you'd agreed to do whatever you were told, but you also won't be a whole lot poorer in spirit and self-respect.
Your rant is justified and can probably be repeated in its own version by every one of us who's self-employed. But it's part of the price we have to pay for being our own boss.
Just tell them -- and yourself -- that's there's a lake over there and they have your permission, blessing, and recommendation to go jump in it.
You'll feel -- and be -- decidedly the better for it!

Duncan

Thanks Duncan,

Your opinion and advice means a lot to me and I think WPW is very lucky to have you as a member.

janeth · #28 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrafficProducer

Simon & Garfunkel sing about this:-

Quote:

“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” From the song The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel.

Have a contract which states something on the lines of; you will do it their way but you will not promise Traffic if done this way.

I've found that at the end of the day no one really cares what the contract says.

I feel that as soon as they woke up and realized how big of a mistake the design was they would have just blamed me.

Everyone wants to blame someone else. (-:

janeth · #29 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole386

The movie Forest Gump had a wonderful line; "Stupid is as stupid does."

Sounds like something my husband would say. He’s always saying never do anything stupid no matter who tells you to do it because then you will be associated with the stupid idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole386

You do what you can and move on. Dwell on the situation and you grow old much quicker than you should.

Great advice and one of the hardest things for me to do. Not sure why but I really have a hard time no dwelling on things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole386

hug your daughter and enjoy life.

It's what I work for and all that matters at the end of the day. (-:

holmpage · #30 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 01:01 PM

My experience has been that clients tend to acknowledge that I know what I'm talking about, and say "You're the expert." I'm wondering why my experience would be different from Janeth's in this regard, as she also, obviously, knows what she's talking about - and we probably read a lot of the same newsletters and forums and would agree on most of the design issues discussed here.

Putting on my sociologist's hat, I have a couple of possible explanations, and wonder what others think of these.

First: the age of the client. I've observed that the popular culture (particularly music) that is around you when you are around age 18-21 and becoming independent from your family becomes part of you for life. Most of my clients are baby boomers and "came of age" before the web was dreamed of (except by a few visionaries). They approach computers and the internet with a certain caution and awe, and respect for the opinions of those who know what they are doing.

Younger people who came of age during the age of blinking text and animated mailboxes (and also played a certain generation of video games) may have a fondness for some features that have become passé and even discredited.

Being in the older group myself (48), perhaps I attract these older clients, many of whom are selling custom-built homes, travel accommodations, etc. to other older clients. (They're also mostly too busy with their lives to meddle a whole lot in the design process.)

The other factor, perhaps, is my academic background in things other than computers; perhaps I come across professorially when I say, "Studies have shown that ...."

I agree with Janeth and others that you should keep your standards high, particularly as reflected in your online portfolio. I've also had my "bag of tricks" stretched - to my benefit - to accommodate the wishes of clients.

janeth · #31 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holmpage

My experience has been that clients tend to acknowledge that I know what I'm talking about, and say "You're the expert."

Most of the time I get the same thing, It's rare for me to have a client give me such a hard time.

philena30 · #32 (**permalink**) 09-02-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holmpage

First: the age of the client. I've observed that the popular culture (particularly music) that is around you when you are around age 18-21 and becoming independent from your family becomes part of you for life.

Younger people who came of age during the age of blinking text and animated mailboxes (and also played a certain generation of video games) may have a fondness for some features that have become passé and even discredited.

This was definitely my problem. I had a ColecoVision at 8yrs.. what can I say :P

Same with MySpace. (philenaworld) *wink* I noticed that's a hot topic lately. But I've seen the same with them. They start putting pages together on Myspace using so much css and layouts that slow down their load times for alot of people. Then when you start getting popular you have to turn your HTML off because people are slowing down your load times in comments with huge pics, videos, and music. But it's what people are getting use to. So the younger generations start putting pages together just like they did for their myspaces or other communities and think it will bring the same traffic, or they want the same effects.

**Tubby** · #33 (**permalink**) 09-03-2006, 12:41 AM

I have the opposite problem with programmers.
I have attempted to use about a dozen programmers (cost me a fortune) and so far not one scrap of programing that I can use.

I tell a programmer exactly what I need (based on seven years of constantly monitering my web sites)
and they all say Yes - 'can do - no problem', then they set out ignoring what I asked for . . .?

So another pile of hours of work gets dumped...

We all have our problems. . .

dawilliams · #34 (**permalink**) 09-03-2006, 11:44 AM

Janeth,

Based on the amount of feedback generated by your post it is clearly a hot topic.

I concur with your decision to walk away from prospects that will not heed you counsel. A web designer with integrity has a fiduciary responsibility to his/her clients. Beyond that, we have a responsibility to create works that reflect our professionalism and integrity.

There was a time that I would settle for less than the best and accept all comers. Now, after maturing as a web designer, I will decline those prospects that ask me to do something that is not in our mutual best interest.

Stick to your guns and heed the counsel of your friend who suggested a script for handling those types of prospects that are asking you to settle for anything less than the best.

Peter (IMC) · #35 (**permalink**) 09-03-2006, 12:32 PM

Your real problem is that you´re not a sales person,... :)

In stead of going with the client, you´re constantly telling the client "NO". And you don't have to do that. You know that once you did the design, 9 out of 10 customers will love what you did. Perhaps they want some small changes, but they will be happy.

All the things you tell them are correct, but most of your clients are not able to visualize what you tell them. They´re not designers and thus don't have that visualization gift that you have. They won't understand what you mean.

Quote:

I don’t think we should build a pink website because pink is your favorite color.

Alternative answer: We can incorporate the collar pink in the design.

Quote:

I also disagree with using a font because the font is neat looking.

Alternative answer: I will do 3 different fonts and you can check with friends and family which they like best.

Quote:

Another crazy thing people want to do is add scrolling text and moving pictures.

You can incorporate these things in the design without them being too distracting. I bet even that if you say yes and then leave it out, most won't even complain about it. They will be way too happy with your design.

It´s not always necessary to decide everything up front. Especially in designs this is almost not possible because your clients can't see the website you will design untill you have the design ready. They can't visualize what you tell them. So you´re better of not saying too much.

One great thing to do I think is to send your client a questionaire with some key questions about basic color scheme, top, left or right menu, what kind of look & feel (friendly, serious, corporate, etc.) and all the things you need to understand what they need.

Be sure to not go into details until they have seen at least a first draft of the design. You have to lead your customer, don't let them lead you. When you have to say "NO" all the time, it means they´re leading you instead of you leading them.

acornwebworks · #36 (**permalink**) 09-03-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby

I have the opposite problem with programmers.
I have attempted to use about a dozen programmers (cost me a fortune) and so far not one scrap of programing that I can use.

I tell a programmer exactly what I need (based on seven years of constantly monitering my web sites)
and they all say Yes - 'can do - no problem', then they set out ignoring what I asked for . . .?

So another pile of hours of work gets dumped...

We all have our problems. . .

Boy, don't I hear you on that one. I will even create a mockup of what I want, for all the good it usually does me.

I'll still often get "we don't understand why you'd want that. It would make more sense for you to do this other thing...which we just happen to have already created.

When I explain that 1) I want exactly what I say I want and 2) they are wrong about my business needs because they assume my business does X, but it really does Y, they just don't get it and want to continue to argue.

Needless to say, I won't use them.

But in this situation I truly know what I want a program to actually do...while a lot of businesses owners haven't figured that out about their websites.

The worst was a guy who kept telling me that I was wrong, that I really wanted what he was saying I wanted (which wasn't even close) and that he'd look at my mockup AFTER he'd created the program because he knew I'd be far happier with what he created.

The fact of the matter was that I knew EXACTLY what I needed to automate a specific task, as we'd been working with a jerry-rigged version already, and he was thinking I wanted some kind of classified ad site...how weird is that...and he was condescending about it to boot.

I finally found a guy in New Delhi who 1) actually looked at the mockup and 2) actually did what I asked for. It was great! (Oh, and I've found that US programmers are the worst about not doing what I want, but that could be just my experience.)

**Tubby** · #37 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 01:51 AM

acornwebworks. Frustrating isn't it.

I just wasted 7 months trying to get a "place an ad on this site" type program/site.
All I wanted for the main page was a simple blank adver of specific size. where a user was temped into creating an advert - select a colour - select a font size - ad an email address - add a url. ad a pic.

All I wanted was that when a webmaster or advertiser arrived they could simply "PLAY" just mess about to create an advert. these ads would be placed on the next page for anyone to see. (free advertising)
and the creation could be seen as it evolved on the page.

The second part of the site was to enable the webmaster to place that advert on selected specific pages and locations on a choice of 1 0r many of over 2000 pages. Just do a trial ad on one page for a week - no prob for small spenders to create an ad on one page - no need for huge budgets. .

Result - UNBUILDABLE - cost me a lot of wasted money,
It is hard getting a budget together just to have single minded dick heads blow it all away. I was simply unable to get a programmer to build what I needed. . Yes I did get quotes from lots of people who said no problem. . But I am not paying $100 per hour for someone to sit down and read how to do it books. . Sometimes programmers are totally unable to see past the program.
Just because a program works! . . does not mean it is any good. If a user readily accepts it and uses it, then it works. . I wanted to sell my own adverts on my own site - I blew $5000 and all I got is piles of useless bits of programming that only another programmmer would know how to use. . I have uneducated users. . I knew exactly how to tempt them into learning to use my pages to advertise on. . but programmers simply will not accept that I knew precicely how I needed it done.

I shall not attempt it again untill I find a programmer that will simply accept a partnership, that way If he does not end up with end user acceptance he has only wasted his own time.
I already Blew my R&D budgets learning about how programmers think. . .

greeneagle · #38 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 03:13 AM

Peter (IMC):

Quote:

"Your real problem is that you´re not a sales person,... :)"

I can easily sell more sites, Maintenance, SEO and SEM than I can provide, that's not a problem at all.

It's finding the quality providers that is the problem!

I am currently backlogged 4-5 months. I get a lot of offers and when I review their sites, they just don't handshake me with a firm quality handshake.

Ken

acornwebworks · #39 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby

All I wanted for the main page was a simple blank adver of specific size. where a user was temped into creating an advert - select a colour - select a font size - ad an email address - add a url. ad a pic.

All I wanted was that when a webmaster or advertiser arrived they could simply "PLAY" just mess about to create an advert. these ads would be placed on the next page for anyone to see. (free advertising)
and the creation could be seen as it evolved on the page.

That is soooo weird they couldn't do that. It's not like you're asking for something that hasn't been done before, because it sounds very much like those websites where you can create your own business card. You get to save it as you go and, if you decide you like it, you can order it.

That's why I use sites like RentACoder.com...I don't pay if I don't get what I've specified they have to provide me. Yes, that means I have to be really specific (for what that's worth, as we've both discovered) but it does protect me from losing megabucks for those "oh yeah, I can do it...whoops, I can't figure it out from the book I'm reading" bozos.

It's one thing to be confident about your skills. It's quite another to have no idea of what your skills actually are, but decide you can 'fake it till you make it'. That doesn't really apply to programming.

**Tubby** · #40 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 05:10 AM

Thats the problem. The moment coders read what I want, they instanly recognise it as being like something else they have seen. . That's it then. . They seem unable to remove the thought that is in their heads. .

Quote:
It's not like you're asking for something that hasn't been done

That is the point - It is something that has not been done. . It just seems like lots of other things.

I did try over the last year a couple of rentacoder sites. I no longer consider Indians to speak the same language as me. I had trouble with the word 'location' and many many other words.

I did learn that to say something that I consider to be precise and exact. . Can translate into something entirely different. Even diagrams get transformed, instead of translated.

But this is the price of education. . I know more now than I did last year. All I need to do is to turn this knowledge to good purpose.

janeth · #41 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby

All I wanted was that when a webmaster or advertiser arrived they could simply "PLAY" just mess about to create an advert. these ads would be placed on the next page for anyone to see. (free advertising)
and the creation could be seen as it evolved on the page.

The second part of the site was to enable the webmaster to place that advert on selected specific pages and locations on a choice of 1 0r many of over 2000 pages. Just do a trial ad on one page for a week - no prob for small spenders to create an ad on one page - no need for huge budgets. .

What a neat idea.

Now if one person designed his/her ad and I came along 10 minutes later and wanted to do mine on the same page, could I remove their's or would there be a time limit?

**Tubby** · #42 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 09:24 AM

"Now if one person designed his/her ad and I came along 10 minutes later and wanted to do mine on the same page, could I remove their's or would there be a time limit?"

Janeth, The intent was that a user could create an ad. . these could simply be stored on pages, ( i never got so far as to decide if one page would be all I created. But page would have held about 6 adverts across by about 7 ads deep. . I suppose it could have looked a bit like a million dollar page. But the size of the ads would have been fixed to the size I needed users to place on my web pages. .
But Yes they would be there for other users to see what could be made with combinations of text size photos etc. I wanted versatility. so it coverered every possible advertiser from the webmaster promoting a site. right down to someone wanting to place an ad for a car for sale. ( I think a week would be a nice time limit - The more the merrier- if users came to place a free ad - thats just free promotion - the code I produced could be used on any site - so If I run out of space to place the proper ads, the more people that knew of the site the better. . and basically I only have Automotive space anyway. .

I thought it could have a huge fun content . I would not have had any great problem creating a few View the adspages, as they would have only be seen onn the create an ad site. .

The second step was to simply select a location to place the ad. So if you merely wanted a small ad that you could place on a page that had Austin cars. you could simply select quiet page that got around ten hits a day - and place your ads. . no great outlay - specific content pages. and a fixed rate that would have been about .025 cents per view.
(very specific page and page location)

but getting it built proved to be a nightmare. .
I still have the site sitting virtually empty with an off the shelf test program on it that I used to understand how these sites worked, but the program was never any good for modificatin. .

So I shall re-look at the whole think in a couple of years time.

I can display thousands of ads daily . all I wanted was something that users liked to use. ads that worked. and a fixed income for myself per page view so I could budget. . But I need a programmer sitting in my office so I can supervise everything.

I needed usability - all I got was stuff that would not work..

Written in hurry - excuse the errors..

P.S. the remnants of my efforts lies in tatters at www.stickpointer.com

**Tubby** · #43 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 09:50 AM

One problem that programmers had was understanding the simple proposition. that I only wanted to create places to place the adverts as they were submitted.
I have no problem creating a selection of say 200 locations, to list for users to choose from.

the user gets the code for the ads - matches it with an available location, selects the budget. and hey presto.

But the programmers never seemed to understand that I needed to creat the locations - that the program did not need to create them. If I felt like adding 4 spaces to display adverts on 1967 Pontiac parts. I would simply add them, to the users list of pages available.

They never understood that say you wanted to place show an advert on your site . . you would not want to display a blank place. . you simply kept your old advetrts in place untill such times as you had a paying ad at the price you wanted to display.
So you added the code After you got the ad. Yhis makes perfect sense to me, why would I want to show blank ads, (just fill them with fillers? - or advertise here? - pointless)

Am I rambling. . I will Stop. . I am still quite angry I wasted all that effort and funds. .

Peter (IMC) · #44 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 12:56 PM

I have gained lots of experience with programmers in the last year and understand them much better now.. :) (also because I work with them in my office)

To work with programmers, you need to create all the pages you want your system to use. Then create a set of rules that the system is to apply. Extremely tight rules give them less opportunities to be "creative". Creativity comes naturally to a programmer because that´s needed to create programs,.. :) The less information you provide, the more creative they will be. And the one thing I learned is that if you think you told them everything they need to know, you can be sure that you haven't. There is much more to programming than just putting in words what you want. (words are subject to interpretation and that´s where things go wrong generally)

And if you work like described above, you still will have to be checking everything to make sure you got what you wanted. But the advantage is that the "creativity" is more limited and thus required changes are not so huge they´re gonna feel upset about having to change some things. (they´re extremely sensitive people by the way)

acornwebworks · #45 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 02:05 PM

Very interesting.

But I think this whole thread change actually comes around full circle and illustrates something I think we've all missed.

I got to it by writing the following reply to Tubby...

~~~

By the way, when I say "it hasn't been done before" I meant that in the sense that programmers aren't being asked to invent the wheel, they are simply being asked to improve on it according to your specifications.

The components you are asking for already exist. Yes, most programming is based on already-existing components...and it truly should be. (But that's a discussion for another time and probably another list :-)

Perhaps the problem the programmers are having is the one I'm having (and, yes, I'm keeping in mind I haven't seen your specs and, as you acknowledge, you're understandably still pretty ticked off about having squandered so much money on nothing, so are simply giving us a quickie overview.)

With that caveat, my problem is this...you first wrote:

"I only wanted to create places to place the adverts as they were submitted." which is perfectly reasonable.

Then you wrote [they] "never seemed to understand that I needed to create the locations - that the program did not need to create them. If I felt like adding 4 spaces to display adverts on 1967 Pontiac parts. I would simply add them, to the users list of pages available"

Well, that's where you throw me too, even though I understand how it could be done. The question is...why on earth would anyone want it done that way???

If I'm placing an ad for seatbelts for a 1978 Bonneville, I don't want to wait till the site owner creates a space for 1978 Bonneville parts. I want the ad to be posted right away once I've paid for it. If I write the ad and then can't find a place to post it myself, I'm going to cancel out and pay zero.

(by the way, you can see the car at http://independenceinc.org/arttougeau.htm - we won a prize in the 2004 Art Tougeau parade with it :-) It still gets waves and honks and whistles driving down the street! The peacock also won a prize.)

~~~

Do you see the point I got to? It doesn't matter what Janeth wants as a web designer or a programmer wants to do for Tubby or even what the business owner wants. It's "WHAT DOES THE WEB SITE VISITOR WANT?"

In this case, I literally don't want the site to work the way Tubby apparently wants it to. (Keep in mind my earlier caveat. Apologies if I'm completing misunderstanding, Tubby.)

It might be fun creating my ad, but if I can't do what I want to do with the darn thing when I'm through, I've stopped having fun. I'm getting ticked off. My time just got wasted by someone else and my ad for '78 seatbelts didn't get posted.

Janeth touched on this briefly with her leaking roof example. I hinted at it with my "what does the business owner want the site to accomplish".

But, ultimately, this is *the* number one question. What does the web site visitor want from the site. Why did they come, and what were they expecting. If you want your website to be successful, you need to find this out and then give them what they were expecting.

(Oh, by the way Tubby, there really are some restrictions regarding websites and blank spaces. I'd love to see your specs. You can private message them to me if you'd like.)

Kendall

Peter (IMC) · #46 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 03:26 PM

:)

Quote:

Well, that's where you throw me too, even though I understand how it could be done. The question is...why on earth would anyone want it done that way???

The question I always wonder about is: "Why do programmers think that the whole world thinks like them?" That´s a real issue for programmers (and designers I guess). At least by my experience I had to often explain almost to the last detail why something needs to be done in a certain way. What follows is often a "................................................. .........................................." ( a lot of thinking going on ) "................................................. ..............." followed by an: "aaaaaahhhhhhhhh,.. ok, we do it like that"

programmers need to understand why they´re doing something, otherwise they can't program. I think this is pretty normal actualy. If you have to do something without knowing why or without the feeling that it is actually usefull, then it is very difficult to be motivated. Perhaps this even more true for programmers.

As to subject of this thread, I would go for less discussion up front, just make sure you understand the basic look and feel that the client is aiming for. You can lead him or her a long way.

janeth · #47 (**permalink**) 09-04-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote: