Link Exchange with competitiors

[Serj]

Hey,

I have a question about exchanging links with competing sites. I have been in webmaster industry for about 3 years now, and I have always had the understanding that when doing link exchange campaigns, you should link with similar sites, but not competing sites. However I had that belief shaken yesterday when I refused to exchange links with one site. He gave a good argument about why you should exchange links with directly competing sites. I also see many 1st pages sites in Google that exchange links with many competitor sites. So I just wanted to know the good and the bad of exchanging links with competitors...or just any input on whether I should stay away, or do it.

[nottheusual1]

I think you might be seeing Google AdSense ads (or the brand "X" equivalent) where you think you are seeing reciprocal links - and there is nothing reciprocal about them, as they are paid ads. I've found it to be rather self-defeating to let competition have the upper 15% of your home page to make a few dollars. Maybe I'm missing something there.

I can't think of a business I'm involved in that would benefit from doing a link exchange with a competitor. I'd like to better understand what this guy was selling you - please share his insights with the rest of us.

[jestep]

Personally I don't ever exchange directly with competitors, but looking at it from the other side it could definitely be a good idea with very few adverse effects. If your links are on a link page as most people's are, you can be pretty sure that they will never be clicked on, or even looked at unless it is by someone that is wanting to exchange a link with you. The sites you would exchange with are very relevant, and like you said they can have very good rankings. Both of these factors could greatly help rankings especially with Google's new algo. I would say that if it doesn't bother you, it will probably have a more positive result than negative. In my case, I just don't like the idea of promoting my competitors in any way, so I stay away from it.

[7thDsites]

Ultimately it's a matter of personal preference as to whether or not to link to competition; I've been in the linking business full time since 1999 with LinkageXpress.com and we've found that the best links do tend to come from competitors because who better to assist in determining the overall theme/relevance of your site than someone within the same industry.

So it boils to the fact that though you will be getting a good boost from them you'll be helping them out as well.

Personally with my own sites I generally avoid competitors as link partners unless I see them as no threat as in most instances you can get just as many good links from related yet non-competing sites. But it depends on the quality of the link... if a competitor wants to link with me, even if they are a threat, if their site is beating me out or would just make a valuable link partner I'll go for it.

[HHI_Golf_Guy]

If you were running a brick and mortar business would you place advertising for direct competitors in your store?

[rominosj]

I have also thought about this for a while now, and from a link strategy perspective, it does make sense to link to your competition, but from a marketing, and sales point of view, it does not make sense. We don't see Coca Cola sharing pages in magazine ads with Pepsi. Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" which is used by lots of business strategists explains that whenever you see small competition (warrior in Tzu terms) you should crash it, and when you see a large competitor, run!

So, if you exchange links with a large competitor (in terms of sales or brand), you are in disadvantage, I would not recommend that to anyone.

[rominosj]

I have also thought about this for a while now, and from a link strategy perspective, it does make sense to link to your competition, but from a marketing, and sales point of view, it does not make sense. We don't see Coca Cola sharing pages in magazine ads with Pepsi. Shun Tzu in the Art of War which is used by lots of business strategists explains that whenever you see small competition (warrior in Tzu terms) you should crash it, and when you see a large competitor, run!

So, if you exchange links with a large competitor (in terms of sales or brand), you are in disadvantage, I would not recommend that to anyone.

[DrTandem1]

I had this question long ago and gave it some careful thought. I wrote an article that included this back in November 2003:

http://www.drtandem.com/reciprocal-links.htm

(4th paragraph in the above article)

Basically, there is very little reason not to trade links with a competitor.

[RemodelingGuy]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

I had this question long ago and gave it some careful thought. I wrote an article that included this back in November 2003:

http://www.drtandem.com/reciprocal-links.htm

(4th paragraph in the above article)

Basically, there is very little reason not to trade links with a competitor.

In Dr T's article, I see the following~

" Some websites are adverse to giving links to competitors. I ask them, what do they fear? They will typically respond that they don't want to advertise a competitor's site for fear of losing business to them. I respond by saying that is nonsense. If you are going to lose business because of a link to another business, isn't the other business with whom you exchanged links just as apt to lose their business to you? If the other site is more popular than yours, you have everything to gain and little to lose. The more popular site will still be gaining a link from you."

__________________________________________________ __

Makes sense to me if you are exchanging apples to apples, but you will typically find that a more popular site tends to HIDE their links pages, making them visible to search engines and forcing the visitor to search for them ~ Which they typically won't.

I have 1000's of links partners and will exchange links with a competitor if I feel that I am getting my moneys worth. I make my links pages easy to find and many are PR5 pages. I expect a competitor to make my link as easy to find on their site as I make theirs on mine. ( Two to Three levels deep at most )

So, to answer your question!

Yes, No and Maybe. :)

Take it on a case by case basis and go with your gut!

[DrTandem1]

RemodelingGuy,

Yes, that was assumed in the definition of "reciprocal." However, that is an important point. There are some sites that give you a link on their link farm that is designed to look like their actual site. In fact, their link farm may be not only in a different domain, but off of a completely different server as well. I have some examples of that in a more recent article:

http://www.drtandem.com/look-before-you-link.htm

[mrcoburn]

I have four sites. All four are #1, not first page but #1. I don't have any kind of program for reciprocal links but what I do, purposefully, is to place links for all my competitors on my index page. Now, this isn't for everyone but it works for me and what I do. Some of my clients have noticed that I link to my competitors and tell me that I show a lot of confidence in what I offer in doing so (the actual word they use is "balls" but ...). Now, if Google or Yahoo are perceiving me as a portal, I couldn't say. I only know that I hold that #1 position and, interestingly, after the Florida update all my competitors fell off the 1st page completely (I, on the other hand went from #'s 5-6-7-8 to #1). On one site, Alexia tells me I have 60 links in from all over the world and only 3 of them have anything to do with my business and I link to none of them. I'm no expert on SEO but I am an avid student of same. All I know is my sites work, they bring me clients like crazy, I pay zero for anything but hosting, they are my exclusive form of advertising and I hold that cherished #1 position on all of them. I don't know if that helps anyone.

[keithd]

I link with my competitors as long as they follow the basic guide lines.

A link from their main page to their links page, it also must be easily found.

The page my link is on has no more then 40 other links on it.

As for redirect cheats I use Reciprocal Manager which works real well for
checking this for me.

On another note, I have been playing around with one of my sites just to
see what happens when I link with lots of sites, regardless if the main site
is relevant or not.... just as long as the links page I am on is relevant.

In my humble opinion... Do it... Any link that meets the above requirements gets
approved.

Wether or not the search engines actually take some points away or add points
for relevancy does not seem to affect this site... its page one for some very tough
keywords.

[RemodelingGuy]

Originally Posted by keithd

Wether or not the search engines actually take some points away or add points
for relevancy does not seem to affect this site... its page one for some very tough
keywords.

I have gone from 10 URLs - 4 actual sites and decided to put all of my time into two!

StartRemodeling is my main site. I update daily. Add content and have a huge RELEVANT link program that I run through Links Manager.

ToxicMoldUSA.com is a site that I use as an educational site, and was somewhat of a mirror of SR until not long ago~ I was planning on adding the links pages and constantly updating, but found that I am # 1 in 80% 0f the categories I want to be in on MSN, YAHOO and AOL ( plus many others )and generate about 40000 uniques a month. AIs almost non-existent on Google.

On the other hand.

All of the work I have put into SR has generated #1 pages in Google, generating 100's of thousands of visitors, but am NOT very strong on the second rate SE's.

Take it as you will.

[eggypiece]

Dr. Tandem1,
Interesting articles!

In my case, I prefer not to add links from anyone in my main product pages. I don't do it out of fear, because my wife's handmade crafts are truly unique, but just because I don't care to do so.

I have several other PR4 pages in my site where I could place "other" handmade crafts sites listings, and have done so.

On the other hand, I believe that if my product was something that someone else could do as well, I wouldn't want to place a "competitors" link on any of my "content" pages, but would be very willing to place them in a directory linked to my home page, and also accessed by every other page as well.

[kneelsit]

We are currently examining how to link to 2 of our competition from the lower section of our Home page.

Crazy you might say but No.1's product while similar to ours in principle and selling at the same price differs enough to give buyers a choice. BTW they will also be giving us a link from their Home page.

Competitor No. 2 is also considering buying in bulk and including our product with their own line of goods. So for us prominent links are absolutely essential.

Horses for courses.

[MarcGrobman]

Yes this is a big strategic question I have also considered. Two competitors could team up and, theoreticaly, both make a nice jump in the rankings. Any loss advertising to your competitor could be made up by a surge in business for both. Call it a strategic partnership. I guess the ideal partner would provide a similar but slightly different style of products of services.

I guess the a parallel might be an advertising supplement in a publication -- similar companies calling more attention to themselves by advertising together.

It would work.

(Generally I don't like link exchanges though, unless they represent actual partnerships. I think they look bad on your site and are just plain misleading. Grey hat I suppose. I know they help, I just always feel they cheapen the website a little.)

[Serj]

Hmm...it seems like it is a split issue. My question is to the people who do not thing exchanging links with competitors is good. If you have a link/partners page and the competitors link is listed only on that page...what is the problem there...if your visitor is looking at that page anyways wouldn't they be considered a loss anyways? But the visitors that come from his site to yours are fresh visitors that can potentially buy from you. I obviously can see that Pepsi and Coke don't have links to each other from their sites...I just don't know...this has me very confused as I see much potential link partners who are my direct competitors who have higher PR pages with pretty good Alexa rankings...but I just don't know

[nerdbyte]

I sometimes exchange links with competitors, however, I don't label them as competitors. I do graphic design/writing for a living and I can only service so many people in so many areas. If there is another web designer or writer who services a different customer base that I can't reach, then I'll glad exchange links with them. Otherwise I don't.

[DMC_34]

Truth is...

1. If the link isnt on a popular page it wont do much good for you or them. i.e. Exchanging links on a links page page buried in your site among a bunch of other sites.

2. If the link is on popular page it will give you a bunch of credit with proper anchor text in regards to organic traffic especially if both sites rank well and are relevant.

In summary, you are damned if you do and do damned if you dont. But I would opt for #1 rather than sending my PPC traffic away from my site.

DMC

[neuron]

mrcoburn hit the nail on the head. avid student, indeed.

Every site and industry is different. It makes more sense for some sites to link to competitors than for others.

This is really one of the techniques for building a site with virtually nothing invested and making it a money maker, online business building on a shoe string. Pick your industry, become an affiliate of all direct competitors, trade links with them too, if you can get them. Throw up some original content about the various products, and your site eventually becomes an authority, and gets ranked.

Even if you don't get a link back from your competitors, in some cases you can still benefit from linking to them.

Everybody that comes to your site is going to leave it, unless they die at theirr PC while visiting it. If everyone is going to leave, then why not try to benefit from that and give them a reason to come back by being the best resource in the industy and tying all competing sites together.?

Observing my own habits, when researching some product online for purchase, I bookmark the sites that have the most relevant and useful information, and which have the most links to other sites with relevant and useful information. When I go to make a purchase, I go back to these sites as my source. Rarely do I purchase something on my first visit to a site, and usually once I do decide to buy I begin the process at the site that provided me the greatest wealth of information and links.

One of the downsides of requesting links from your direct competitors is that if you do it by email, and it is not very personalized, your competitor may shoot you down by filing an email spam complaint against you. Some industries are absolutely ruthless, and will do anything to try to hurt the competition. You are not likely to have 100 much less 1000 direct competitors. More likely, if you have any SEO sense, you'll only have a handful of other sites that you consider real competitors, 25 tops. Do your research before you invite direct competirors and personalize those emails with briefly detailed information about their site and the industry.

A problem with larger corporate sites is that this is not they type of thing that is decided at the SEO level, but in the boardroom. If you do this for some people to benefit them, they'll go ballistic, and label you as treachorous. Whether the technique would postively influence their rankings or not is not even relevant in these cases. Branded sites of magnitude are not going to do this, but a newcomer can, by linking to the branded sites in the industry, pull themselves up by their own boot straps.

also, you don't want to link just to your direct competitors, but up one level and down one level. If you sell widgets from all manufacturers, link to all the local widget installers and retailers you can, like "find a widget retailer near you", or widget installers, for all metro areas, and link to all the major widget manufacturers as well.

I often find it useful to build two link directories for every site, one for industry narrow links, a link directory you can be proud of and prominently display on your home page, and on sitewide menus. If visitors are really looking for what you have, they'll bookmark your site, especially if it allows them to navigate directly from it to other resources on the internet. Give them a link directory where then gan get links to all your direct competitors, all the widget manfuctuers, widget installers, widget historry, widget retailers, widget hobbiests and widget fan clubs. However, there may be a lot of other sites out there that may also be willing to exchange links with sites like yours and even have a link directory that links to other sites in your industry. These sites may not be appropriate for your main featured directory, because these sites are really not directly related to your industry. As long as you appropriately classify them in a second link directory categories and group similar sites together, you might as well be able to trade links from them, especially so if they link to other sites in your industry. In building a second directory this way, you can tap into an additional supply of sites to not only build your link popularity, but help increase and define your overall topological footprint.

[ctabuk]

I can see both sides of this debate. One thing most of you are sort of missing is this. If you already have a high position concentrate on your own Directory Listings, not your competitors, they only want to link to you because you have already done the hard work. Secondly, if you are just starting out on this big adventure check out every competitors website. If they are doing something that you don't do, but you could be considering, take the link if offered. Put all of the links on to a seperate page, someone said 40 per page, do 20, then place them in 'your favourites' check them at least once a month to see if you are being copied. Go for some sites where reciprocal trading might benefit both of you. But never lose sight of the fact that it your site, your income, eventually you will reach say 20 or 30,000 BL's and then people will link to you without you even knowing! Now there's a thought.

[spronger]

I have been exchanging links with competitors for some time. Although I was reluctant at first, I have found it to be a successful strategy. In fact, I now prefer to exchange with a competitor than any other type of site. Basically, you are providing a resource for your visitors. Yes, you will lose a few visitors from your directory pages. But you'll also gain some the same way, usually in equal proportions.

If a visitor finds a link to a competitor more compelling than the sales message on your site, you probably weren't going to sell to them anyway. At least you've provided them with a helpful resource and they may return to your site because of it.

I understand webmasters being nervous about linking to a competitor, but I say look at the bigger picture and give it a try.

Steve

[jacobwissler]

I link to several competitors from my index page because we are not the only web design firm in Houston, and I want to direct my readers to quality firms. However, I am careful to link only to competitors that I fully trust (such as Ken, aka GreenEagle) and firms that I do not directly compete with. Ken is 50 miles from my office.

Another example, I link to www.i360.net because I trust them, I know they are very good, we do business together, and they do a different type of web design than we do. They are young and very creative and appeal to the "in" fashionable people, while we make websites for the Houston medical community, and standard Houston small business people.

I think it helps with SEO to link to other local web design firms, but I am not going to link to someone a block from my office that offers an identical service.

[etechsupport]

I think you can get better result if you visit your legitimate competitor sites (who are getting good PR) and check their baclinks and ask them to reciprocate links with your site.

[etechsupport]

I think it's better to check your legitimate competitor's site( those having good PR) and their baclinks and ask them to reciprocate links with your site, it can give good result.

[virtualtraveller]

there are real competitors and google competitors.
I purposely add at least one link on each page to a site that ranks in the top 20 for the keyword that page is targeting. Why? Because Google might see this page as a useful source of info on the topic if there is a OBL to another site that ranks well for this topic.

I also exchange links with competitors (ones that rank well in google for the same keyword or at least have the similar keyphrase in their h1), for the same reason above. I do not exchange links with sites of businesses that seem better or more competitive than me.

These people I exchange links with know what they're doing as much as I do regarding SEO, we both hide the link somewhere obscure on the relevant page with the right link text but in the wrong place (i.e. where it is least likely to be seen by a human but still spidered by a bot). That's all that counts really.

If you're confident your page pulls their attention then you needn't worry about the possibility of directing a few people to a competitor site. They will have the same disadvantage.

[greeneagle]

With the right link partners, people you trust (even competetors), you can find that you can develop a good business relationship where you bring each other business.... and that is not about stashing the link in some obscure place.

Quite the contrary, I'll even dedicate a good competitor's article to an entire page. Now that is "relevancy" (business and SE wise) even when you crosslink to each other.

Ken

[Serj]

Well today I believe I encountered the reason why it is not a good idea to exchange links with competing sites. You are competing for the same keywords. If your site is better ranked for a certain keywords then theirs then you are providing more of a relevant link than they are to you. Which causes a higher relevancy for that particular keyword for them...I guess if you exchange links for the exact same keyword as your competitor is exchange links for it's not so bad, but if you are working for another keyword and they link to you with that keyword in your linking text, and you are linking to them for a keyword that you are more established in, that brings them up in the SE and may drop you lower for that keyword...I am being pretty Google specific here, but still...I don't know I see the good in the link partner sending their visitors to you, but I also see the bad in you lossing positioning in the SE's...am I way off base here?

[etechsupport]

"you can find that you can develop a good business relationship where you bring each other business"....

I think its good when you have linked with a legitimate competitor normally otherwise few competitors are awaiting for a chance to en cash the opponent mistake.

[brucet]

To be attractive to both parties, reciprocal links need to be of equivalent value - taking into account the content of the link; the ranking of each site and the link pages; visibility on the site; the number of site visitors etc. So unless your competitors are mugs who don't mind giving more than they get, you will end up giving away as much as you gain.

You also have to consider the issue of brand recognition. Who has the most to gain by association with the other - ie, who has the bigger brand? I have never seen a market leader exchanging links with the competition.

[etechsupport]

I agree with you if you're going to link with good leading brand companies that can be benificial to you.

[nottheusual1]

Ditto here, brucet.

I asked a cutomer who is in a heavy commodity retail sector (promotional products) about link swapping and he asked what I'd been smoking.

I guess if it works for you, OK - but I doubt we'll ever see GM and Ford swapping links on their Web sites.

[greeneagle]

All over the country outlying auto retailers get together and produce mutually beneficial TV commercials to attract customers out of major metropolitan areas - every day!

Ken

[nottheusual1]

Because they market to specific geographical areas covered by the local television affiliate. Their markets may overlap slightly, but are still easily definable, so the co-marketing isn't predatory.

The Web isn't as geographically sensitive. For many of the commodities being sold on the Web you aren't even aware of the location of the retailer until you see your invoice page.

All other things being equal, you probably wouldn't buy a car from 3 states away if you had to get it serviced at the point of purchase.

Conversely, if I'm buying thousands of $0.49 widgets that are disposable when used up, I'd get it from 30 states away if I could save $100 on the total purchase price. Again, all things being equal...

[greeneagle]

Quote:

"The Web isn't as geographically sensitive"

I certainly hope you are following the geographically difinitive trends on the net right now!

Ken

[MarcGrobman]

Yea, this is not a strategy for everyone. But if most of your business comes through web searches, rather than other forms of advertising or referals, this could be beneficial.

Fact is, in SEO, if you don't have good relevant links to your site, you'll get beat by people who do. Yes, there may be other ways to get them. And I'm not gonna do this. But it is pretty tempting -- who could give you a more relevant link than one of your highly ranking competitors?

If two page 2 companies can join together and leap frog to the top of the results, it could be worth it.

I don't like it if it cheapens your brand or confuses your website visitors, but I think it could work well if handled correctly.

[greeneagle]

Quote:

"I don't like it if it cheapens your brand or confuses your website visitors, but I think it could work well if handled correctly."

I have partnered with 2 other marketing firms in the Houston area lately and we are forming a "POWERHOUSE" focused on each other's strengths!

Ken

[MarcGrobman]

Yes, a lot of ecommerce is not 'geographically sensitive.' But for a lot of service related businesses, it is very important. For instance, we are not going to compete for "Web Design" but we have a fighting chance for "los angeles web design" and better for "oakland web design." And that is what our clients search.

So, yes you could partner with someone in a different geographical region. But partnering with someone in your region would provide even more relevance.

[nottheusual1]

A true partnership (described in most recent previous posts) is far beyond the concept of a link exchange - a group of businesses benefit from, and compliment, the relationship by sharing business resources.

They make sense because they are mutually beneficial. If three competitors are already top 5 page 1 natural listings and top 10 PPC for most keywords, top 3 PPC when not page 1 natural, where's the symbiosis?

We can make minor changes to our sites and move up and down with each new crawl - but not across 250 keywords/sets - we have to focus on high natural placement on the most expensive PPC keywords and live with what we get on the others.

Ditto on geographics - if your business is geographically sensitive, you should be sensitive to it, too. We aren't because we don't need to be.

Ken - geography is old-school marketing, and it is something everyone should watch/be aware of, whether online or off. If I had to run a business that relied heavily on my building business in my immediate markets, I'd be sensitive to it, also - but we purposely chose to not to be that way. BTW - I still have customers in Houston, where I originally started my business and was VERY local market focused.

We are greedy - we want all the dollars, not just the ones in the back yard. <<chuckle>>

[greeneagle]

nottheusual1,
Post your url and let's play in the SERPs geographically!
You don't think that the SE's resolve your phone area codes and zipcodes geographically?
No "old-school" about it!, it's back for a stronger visit than you think.
Don't take my word for it though... Start a new thread and let's have some fun there.
Ken

[nottheusual1]

Ken - go back and carefully re-read all my posts in this thread and let me know which part of them deserves their own thread, and I'll jump right in.

I don't think any of them do - unless we want to start a "marketing 101" thread and extole the virtues of planning and execution based on specific business models.

Marketing is a mile deep and fifteen miles wide. If we over-generalize things we might be setting up an inexperienced marketer for frustration and failure. Service and retail, at their core, require different approaches. If your geography is your back yard, it requires a different approach than if you have a national market. There are no "one-size-fits-all" marketing plans/tactics, and the Internet has added a new dimension, but marketing is still marketing.

As I've said before, it all starts with a plan and goals. This thread has opened many eyes (including mine) to how link exchanging with your competition may work to your advantage - if it is compatible with your business model and current business conditions.

It isn't with most of ours. There are many other posts that reflect this same sentiment.

Re-read what I've said, and if needed, we can start a private conversation about where you disagree.

[etechsupport]

nottheusual1, Right, I completely agree with you. It cannot be denied that location will become increasingly critical, that’s the reason that people are implementing location based services perhaps the new breed of the marketing system, and hopefully there is potentially huge market in particular demographic set-up and specific location.

I think it's also equally important to generate marketing intelligence through research and analysis based on the information to people's mobility, travel habits and movement which can be considered greater source for marketing of certain product.

[greeneagle]

nottheusual1,

What I evidently didn’t "put" across well, was that the SE's are increasingly keying on geographical dominions, albeit from your contact page or anywhere else that country/area/zip codes can be gleaned!

If you don't agree, let's play it out here.

Ken

[nottheusual1]

Not disagreeing - I just don't think that it is all that relevant in this discussion or any of my current business models/conditions.

If you feel the need to "play it out" - OK, I'll bite, but let this thread die peacefully and you can start a new one based on this premise:

As an Internet-only retailer of heavily commoditized widgets with multiple geographically neutral national brands, how can this help me, or conversely, how is it hurting my business by not being sensitive to it?

[Serj]

Does anyone have an answer for that last question?

[etechsupport]

I am also curious about same.