High rankings, good traffic, but very little income!

[cspelts]

Ctabuk has stated he wants to make this the best marketing forum on the planet – so I thought I’d give him a challenge! Actually this is something that has been challenging me for years.

I own a site, ROCKBAND.COM, that started as a fun little side project back in 1996. Because independent musicians tend to aggressively market themselves on the web, and my site was a free resource, it grew fast. But in 2000 I grew tired of the workload with no financial payoff, so I stopped working on the site. I ignored it for nearly five years. I left it up because it still was a valuable resource, and I figured it still helped the bands listed on it. I also set it up so that new bands could submit their info and they’d show up in a few selected searches but not site wide. During the five years I neglected the site, the database grew from 1000 bands to over 4000 bands.

Then this past January I decided there must be a way for me to make money off this site – so I started to clean it up. I streamlined the submission process so that my role now is very small. I added a new forum this month, and I now have local news that shows up in the local sections, and a brand new Gig Listing section. When I heard about the new TV show, Rock Star: INXS I thought that would be a perfect fit, so I added a section on the show.

Because of the optimization I did years ago, and because quite a few of the bands link back to the site, I’m in the top five for both Rock Band and Rock Bands on Google and Yahoo, and do almost as well on MSN. My traffic before January was about 1500 a day, and last week I averaged 2200 unique visitors per day.

But how do I make money off this site? It’s a huge challenge! The site as it is now, appeals mainly to indie musicians – and they are generally too savvy to click on advertising and are not interested in buying a CD. Initially I was hoping to appeal to people looking for music, but I’ve found that the general public is just not that interested in indie musicians. It’s been suggested to me that I should have the bands pay a fee to be listed – but these are poor musicians – it’s just not going to happen!

Right now I’ve got AdSense on most pages, some Amazon products, and a CD store that is an affiliate for indie cd store, CD Baby. But because my visitors are mostly musicians, none of these things is generating any income.

So I’ve considered dropping the indie angle and focusing on all rock bands – including very famous ones that might appeal to the general public! But I’m a little resistant to that because there are a million fan sites on the web for those bands – at least now I’m doing something different. But another part of me thinks I just need to get over my resistance and jump in with the big fish. I wouldn’t be abandoning the indie bands – just broadening my focus.

It feels really odd to open myself up like this and put this out there – but I trust you guys, and I hope that you can help open my eyes to whatever I’m not seeing.

[ctabuk]

First of all this is not an optimisation problem, or a problem that can be sorted by computer software, this is a Commercial site that you have worked your tail off for and one that deserves to make money. So forget about, what the site looks like, forget everything else except for one word Promotion. Now I am going to use a few people I know, who will look at the site. These are people that I trust. Firstly you need an agent, one who you know and that you trust. The musicians may be hard up, but the people who run the venues are not. This site is ideal for 'Who is on and where they can be seen' - Concentrate your mind on that. I'll post back.

[cspelts]

Thank you ctabuk, I just can't see the forest for the trees anymore, and I need a little help. Or maybe a lot of help!

[wrmineo]

Would I be correct in assuming:

Your GoogleAds produce more than your other affiliate ads combined?

Your website kicks butt! I concur with ctabuk - you've worked your tail off, the site looks great, and deserves to make money. He makes another great point in getting noticed not by the bands, but by those controlling the venues.

I may be able to throw some traffic your way - I'll send a PM to further explain.

[cspelts]

Yes, the Google AdSense does make more than the others - but it's still minuscule. Really. I would have no problem dropping it, if there was something else that made more sense.

And thanks for saying the site kicks butt! The musicians have always appreciated it, and I love it, I just would like it to make some money!

[jomariet]

Instead of messing with a site that is working and doing what it is supposed to do, what about going at this sideways. Turn the success of the original site into income by starting associated websites that are strictly commercial and feeding traffic into them via the rockstar.com site.

So what do musicians need that they will spend money on? How about a Battle of the Bands type site. Entry fee + corporate sponsorship = income. You should be able to get sponsorship based on your original success and you've got a huge database full of potential entries. The bands I know can scrape up $25 for an entry fee if they have the chance to get noticed.

How about an addon site for venues and promoters, or musician services (repair, electronics, transport, instruments, equipment).

AdSense and other affiliate programs are nice for a little money but sometimes you've got to step forward.

JM

[cspelts]

Yeah jomariet, it’s time to step forward. And you’re right, I am hesitant to mess with something that's working well - on some levels.

You’ve given me some things to think about – thank you!

[Feydakin]

The hardest thing for a band to do is find a gig.. Most indie bands have no promoters or agents.. And little money..

Maybe an angle where venues can pay to list open dates for bands to apply to play at..

That's how the resume places make cash, list your resume for free, but job postings cost cash..

[Feydakin]

Try adding a pay area for venues to list opening that they have and are looking for bands to play.. Indie bands have little money, no agents, no promoters.. Give them another reason to sign up and keep coming back by finding a way for venues to list open dates..

[cspelts]

I've actually got a Gig Listing area already - just launched this month - where bands can add a gig and then it shows up on the local pages for their area.

It would be very simple to add a section where venues could list available dates... And that would appeal to my current core audience of musicians. Thanks for the idea!

[kerer99]

Why not sell some ad space on the site? I would look for some advertisers who would be interested in promoting their services to musicians...be it online music stores, online music education providers, etc. Contact them directly, and say you'll place some ads on your site for $x monthly.

You're running an established website with high search engine rankings, a high PR and excellent traffic. Who wouldn't want to advertise on your site?

I would run a "promotion" at first with cheap ad space (ex. buy 3 months of advertising for $500, get one month free). Also think of starting a newsletter - building a subscriber base will give your advertisers another avenue to promote their products/services to their target audience.

Good luck.

[Ne0]

Hey Cspelts...

I love your site and have visited it several times in the last few weeks because of the rockstar inxs page you have up. I know what your talking about... I built and ran freejohnny.com for almost a yr, it is no more. But we were getting 3.5 million hits some months and the site was a real stinker when it came to revenue. As it was suggested above, and IMHO I think your best bet would be to contact some large companies and sell advertising space. ie: Sony, Apple (ipod), record companies, etc... Let them pay you a nice wage and then you can concentrate on having fun with the site and keeping it up-to-date! Hey I was wondering too... have you thought about creating subdomains for the artists on rockstar INXS? jordis.rockband.com etc? I'm not exactly sure what they would be good for yet... but come end of the show and start of the tour I bet you will be listed high in the SE's and be able to profit from that in someway? (maybe you could auction off the subdomains on ebay?) I'll tell ya what... if you figure it out let me know how you did it LOL!
L8 M8
NeO1

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by kerer99

You're running an established website with high search engine rankings, a high PR and excellent traffic. Who wouldn't want to advertise on your site?

I hope you’re right kerer99. I think I just need to figure out the right angle.

Originally Posted by kerer99

(ex. buy 3 months of advertising for $500, get one month free).

You know, that might work...

Neo, I’m glad to see you here! Ironically I used to work for Sony and they made an informal offer to buy the site at one point. I turned it down because it was the year 2000 and I thought the site could make me a millionaire! Because I have experience marketing Sony products, I naturally signed up for their affiliate program – but the program isn’t flexible, and I can’t really market the products, all I can do is put up their banners, and after three months I haven’t had a single sale. That’s mind-boggling to me because the site I developed for Sony was so successful, but with their current affiliate program I’ve failed to make a single sale.

I also signed up with Apple’s IPOD affiliate program but have yet to implement it – I kind of lost interest! But maybe trying to sell the products is my mistake – maybe I need to market the site as more of an advertising venue as opposed to a store?

Originally Posted by NeO~1

Let them pay you a nice wage and then you can concentrate on having fun with the site and keeping it up-to-date!

That would be ideal!

Originally Posted by NeO~1

Hey I was wondering too... have you thought about creating subdomains for the artists on rockstar INXS? jordis.rockband.com etc?

No I hadn’t. For some of them my current bio page ranks higher than their own sites for their names, and a few don’t even have sites. I suppose that could help both them and me.

Originally Posted by NeO~1

I'll tell ya what... if you figure it out let me know how you did it LOL!

Wouldn’t it be great to find a way to make a site like this work? I envy wrmineo because I assume he enjoys looking at half-naked starlets all day, and guess what? He makes money doing it! I want to be like that!

[collusion]

Wow, you went to my competitor to create your store! I own CDARMY.com which is a direct competitor of CD Baby.

I would have to tell you that the best way to make money is to have indie artists be able to upload their music and sell their cd's from your website through your own store, (not CD Baby's!) and you can make it free to register their cd's (which we did for a year) and only charge them a small fee when the cd is sold.

If you follow my advise you would then become my competitor also.

[tal]

It looks like you target the same market as this network (http://www.indieclick.com/). I am not affiliated with them, but if it is good enough for BoingBoing (who had the same problem a year ago) it could be good for you

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by collusion

If you follow my advise you would then become my competitor also.

Guess what? I did that in 2000! Because Derek and I ran in the same circles at the time, and he launched his store first, he already had the majority of the business. Plus, I found that I didn't really want to run a CD shipping service - it's a lot of work! So I shut my store down. I just signed up with him last month - but maybe you have a better offer for me?

I have been considering selling music downloads though - no shipping there!

Small world, huh?

[arius]

When you can not make money from a lot of quality traffic (quality in the sense of the specific niche you are in) and you just cannot figure out why affiliate (like the Sony one you are on) does not work, I would recommend to step back and find alternative ways while investigating your options to commercialize and monetize your business. We all want to do automate and dont want to get our hands dirty to monetize our sites, but sometimes it is not really possible. My few suggestions (by the way I had portal type business myself that did not make money in the past, and I ended up monetizing it to a reasonably good extend, I can give you more detail if you PM)

First run an extensive survey on your site asking your visitors what would they buy (product or service) on your site. It could be information, it could be service, it could be product. The results might give you some idea. Also throught keyword search analysis in your area, might also give you some good ideas.

If no good idea comes up from your survey and your research, here are couple things I can think of with my limited knowledge of your space:

Even if most of your visitors are small bands without money that try to get attention, I am sure they would still pay for something. Like ebooks about bands, how to find a manager, how to get gigs, whatever (sorry I dont know the industry well). Or simple tshirts, other promotional items, that have their names printed on them. Nice posters, business cards or some other thing that they would need for making. Discounted items for some supplies or accessories that they use a lot (for drums, guitars, keyboards, studio type activities...)

Hope this helps a little.

[collusion]

Well, email me at brandon@cdarmy.com and we can talk numbers there. I do not know your deal with Derek so I have no way of knowing what a better deal would be.

[solarchris]

I run a very successful music site for indie artists at www.aandronline.com (A&R Online). Gets a lot of traffic but I target it to very high quality artists in order to get industry attention. I make pretty good money from the site as I write educational music ebooks and sell them on the site (along with one or two other affiliate products). I have a very generous affiliate program and I would give you a very healthy commission if you want to offer these products to your demographic. One such package that is very popular is the "Indie Artist DIY Smartkit" - you can see it here:

http://www.aandronline.com/smartkit/index.html

Drop me a line if you like - perhaps you can give it a try and see if it works out for you. Just a thought.

Chris

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by arius

Even if most of your visitors are small bands without money that try to get attention, I am sure they would still pay for something. Like ebooks about bands, how to find a manager, how to get gigs, whatever (sorry I dont know the industry well). Or simple tshirts, other promotional items, that have their names printed on them. Nice posters, business cards or some other thing that they would need for making.

You know, no matter what else I decide to do, this might be a good addition. I could find other businesses that offer these things, and let them handle fulfillment. It's not that I'm resistant to getting my hands dirty, it's just that I have always felt you are more successful if you focus on what you do well. I'd much rather focus on building the site and promoting the bands, rather than boxing up a shipment of stickers.

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by solarchris

I have a very generous affiliate program and I would give you a very healthy commission if you want to offer these products to your demographic.

Hi Chris, I'll check out your site in more depth tonight and get back to you - but at first glance it sounds like a good fit. Thank you for your response and I'm glad to hear you're doing so well!

[arius]

Your point about focusing on what you are good at is a great one, not from business perspective but also life in general.

When I said about selling stuff directly, and getting your hands dirty, finding people that would do this for you was actually what I had in mind. The real monetization and increasing value of your site would happen if you own (at least significant portion of) the value chain on your site. So you don't have to answer phones and ship the items (even though that might be still the way to do it if things go well), but have some company with the motivation and ability to do it for you. But this way you would own the customer experience and control. In simple affiliate relationship, the value is the short term monetary value, but not the long term relationship.

So it might be possible for you to find an ecommerce store in the arena that would do things like that for you. As far as the ebooks, I think you can still do that yourself with some ebook solution out there. I think by keeping %30-60 of the revenue, you can still license good ebook content. I would focus on cheaper to the point good ebooks for that. Maybe you can even find good industry experts that can write customized small ebooks for your visitor type.

[web-content-king]

What about selling text link ads? I know that isn't a huge money-maker, but it's something.

If traditional affiliate programs and Adsense aren't working, you could try a different kind of ad network...Azoogle is pretty good. I don't know if they have anything music related...but they have a pretty good set of pay-per-lead offers, and if you've got a dedicated audience, it's easier to get leads...

Also, have you tried an email newsletter? You could do write-ups of affiliate products of interest to indie bands. You'd have to be very careful not to be too salesy but you could do it.

[vwebworld]

ditto...on the good site....etc.

So, what's the focus? Your site has a lot of content
and covers a lot of topics. More of a "generalist" rather
than a "specialist" if you will. I hit your site and
think "where do I go from here?". I do think the
content is certainly appropriate... however, it
could be a little better organized/presented. The
site first words are "an unsigned and indie online CD
store".. and "new music here now!"... but the content that
follows is more news and info than music store.
Your menu on the left implies "music store" but the
links turn out to be informational rather than a
link to purchase the music. If the main page is to
remain as is... maybe the navigation (on the left)
should reflect the content of the page... like links
to "rock star", "cover story", "forum","gig guide",
etc.???

Critical to "selling" is to communicate a marketing message
immediately. To make a connection with the viewer and
give them what they are looking for. Your immediate
message doesn't match your immediate content.

I know, you are struggling with what to sell... and
you have already gotten some good suggestions. Check
out your site stats. What web pages get the most interest?
When people hit your site from searches, what are the
search words? These will give you a clue as to what
people are looking for... and may be willing to buy.

Find those items of interest and focus on those...
each with a separate optimized web page. People are
hitting your site looking for something..why not
sell it to them?

~Roland

[ctabuk]

This pleases me, team work, now let's really make this the new Warriors.
Bring your ideas in, bring your friends in, lets go for it people!

[wrmineo]

I often taut the wonderful Peer Power of WPW but this is truly the epitome of it!

Great ideas for a great cause for a great WPW memeber.

cspelts has helped out countless people, to include me, with clear, concise and relevant posts - it's great to see her getting something back.

The ideas generated in this thread are awesome - for anyone reading them, not just cspelts; well done everyone!!

[jomariet]

I like the idea of downloads. We used to listen to a lot of indie music - when it was easy. We had "discovered" a singer/songwriter from Howard University a few years back. When she came up to do a small concert, opening for another guitarist, Erin McKeown (sp?) was amazed that people in Alaska were singing along and knew the words.

It wasn't so amazing. She had been a featured artist on Napster (in the good old days). Napster changed her little coffee shop type, local market into an international one. This was a small venue, but much of the crowd was there to see her - not the headliner.

So if you keep your site friendly to the musician (an insider place) and let indie music fans pay for the site by selling to them you may have found the perfect combination. I'd just remind you that you still have to let us hear indie music free or we're not likely to download more.

JM

[swordfish-1]

I was checking out this thread that you have started here, because I thought I might get something out of it for my site that sometimes finds itself in the same situation. (high rankings-low income) I could not take too much from it because the inde-music business is a pretty far cry from the fishing business. However, I was very impressed by the responses, and the team effort that all of the webmasters out there were willing to contribute to you to help you out. The only thing that I could add to it is that my best customers were earned one at a time by offering good content, (you've got that covered) and by providing needed products and services that your visitors will pay for. The key here is YOUR VISITORS. Do what you can to find out more about the people that visit your site, and the kinds of products and services that they would buy if you offered it.

One way to accomplish this, is to put up a contact page, or link to a mailbox and simply ask what kind of products or services they would like to see available on the site. Let your visitors tell you what they want. With all of the traffic that your site gets, you will probably end up with a lot of good ideas. Then look for the ideas that are most commonly mentioned. That would be a good place to start.

Now that I have spilled my brain a little, can some of you guys please check out my site? I could use your eyes to tell me what I may be missing. I have always found the advice very helpful.......Thanks

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by vwebworld

The site first words are "an unsigned and indie online CD store".. and "new music here now!"... but the content that follows is more news and info than music store.

Hi Roland, you're right, it is more news and information - and those are the most popular sections! New Music Here Now refers to the entire site - not just the CDs.

I've been hesitent to remove the CD store references because I do offer CDs for sale - but it's the least popular part of the site. Also, if a band has a CD for sale, it shows up automatically on their band page - so a visitor might start with a local section, find a band, and then see the CD for sale.

If you think the site is more about rock band news and info, I'm fine with that!

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by jomariet

I like the idea of downloads.

Me too. I think that's the next feature I need to add. The bands have been asking for it for years - it's the number one thing I get mail about!

Originally Posted by jomariet

So if you keep your site friendly to the musician (an insider place) and let indie music fans pay for the site by selling to them you may have found the perfect combination.

I would love to do that – keep it indie-friendly. One thing I think is interesting is that no one has suggested that I follow through on adding major label bands to the site. I would prefer not to do that – I’d much rather keep promoting new music, if I can find a way to do that profitably.

Originally Posted by swordfish-1

Do what you can to find out more about the people that visit your site, and the kinds of products and services that they would buy if you offered it.

Aaack! See that’s where the site has a split personality! It purports to be for people looking for new music – but a large percentage of the visitors are bands looking to promote their own music. I get quite a bit of feedback from the bands on what they want – and they want a lot – but, they don’t want to pay for any of it. What they really want is for me to help them make money.

As for people looking for new music, well I think jomariet nailed that one – they want free downloads.

So I think the CD store, while not very profitable is still a good idea, because is gives the bands a way to make money if a CD does sell, and if I add free downloads, that will please the fans. And maybe by keeping the store, it’ll add to my traffic, which could lead to more money from advertising. That’s a really roundabout way to go about it – but I think it works!

Originally Posted by ctabuk

This pleases me, team work, now let's really make this the new Warriors.
Bring your ideas in, bring your friends in, lets go for it people!

Originally Posted by wrmineo

I often taut the wonderful Peer Power of WPW but this is truly the epitome of it!

Originally Posted by swordfish-1

I was very impressed by the responses, and the team effort that all of the webmasters out there were willing to contribute to you to help you out.

I’m extremely grateful for all the wonderful responses – you’ve all been very generous! It’s great to be a part of such a wonderful community!

[brian.mark]

If you could do something similar to garageband.com with the ability to listen (streaming only) to music and do a review, I think that could help you sell some CD's. I know when I look for music, it isn't about a free download as much as it is about hearing what I'll be getting.

Simply adding a 30 second sample in a streaming format (I'm sure that could be scripted if the bands understand what it is for and upload an MP3 file, making the workload pretty low), but you'd need something so people could report copyright violations or other inappropriate material.

You've got the traffic, so now you need to work on the conversion process. This is one of the toughest parts of making a site work. I would recommend reading what The Grok has to say about this topic. I really respect the opinions of Bryan Eisenberg. His newsletter is pretty good. He also has some programs on Webmaster Radio if you enjoy his stuff.

The only other thing I could suggest at the moment (not having all that much time to think) is having a spot where the bands can enter an equipment list and have a "Want to sound like them" section with affiliate links to some musical equipment sites. Sort of an oddball idea, but it just may work. I know as a musician I tend to try to find the equipment some of my favorite bands use.

Brian.

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by brian.mark

The only other thing I could suggest at the moment (not having all that much time to think) is having a spot where the bands can enter an equipment list and have a "Want to sound like them" section with affiliate links to some musical equipment sites. Sort of an oddball idea, but it just may work. I know as a musician I tend to try to find the equipment some of my favorite bands use.

Cool, cool, cool! I appreciate all your advice, but this one idea really struck me as brilliant. Lots of bands list their equipment in their profile, but making it into another feature that then linked to the maker's web site is a fabulous idea - and a really easy idea to implement. Thanks Brian!

[brian.mark]

Originally Posted by cspelts

this one idea really struck me as brilliant

Quit making such unsubstantiated claims. People will expect too much from me then. ;-)

Really, zzounds.com has a great affiliate program with a data feed that should make it pretty simple. I think that's one of catalyst's programs, too. I know she has mentioned it anyways. That's where I end up getting most of my gear. Good prices, fast shipping and a great selection. (Ok, enough praising them.)

If you need any assistance in figuring that out, let me know. This sounds like it could be fun.

Brian.

[Ne0]

Originally Posted by cspelts

Neo, I’m glad to see you here! Ironically I used to work for Sony and they made an informal offer to buy the site at one point. I turned it down because it was the year 2000 and I thought the site could make me a millionaire! Because I have experience marketing Sony products, I naturally signed up for their affiliate program – but the program isn’t flexible, and I can’t really market the products, all I can do is put up their banners, and after three months I haven’t had a single sale. That’s mind-boggling to me because the site I developed for Sony was so successful, but with their current affiliate program I’ve failed to make a single sale.

I wonder what's involved in becoming a distributor? Different from an affilliate program, you should be able to use your skills as a Sony Marketer to your advantage in a situation like this, Even if you cannot afford to become a licensed distributor, maybe you should contact a few local distributors and ask them if they would like one hell of a sweet deal? Give them 25% for your sales... get in at their prices and then you have the flexibility you wanted! And on that same note... What about this?
If Sony has already made you an informal offer, it's time to go back to the table with a formal offer... LIKE A LEASE! Lease them the site, with you staying in control of the flow, feel, aesthetics , etc... of the site! I don't know if LasVegas (just the domain lease's for 1.8 mill a yr) Maybe Rockband should lease for around 250k per yr? sounds good to me;) p.s. If they go for that I want a job LOL!

Originally Posted by NeO~1

Hey I was wondering too... have you thought about creating subdomains for the artists on rockstar INXS? jordis.rockband.com etc?

Originally Posted by Cspelts

No I hadn’t. For some of them my current bio page ranks higher than their own sites for their names, and a few don’t even have sites. I suppose that could help both them and me.

No Doubt! I think you have a gold mine that your sitting on right there and it's just waiting to be tapped! A good marketing strategy could be all you need.
For example... you said that your current bio pages rank higher than their own sites! Awesome, now capitalize on that! Even if they don't make the band... they're still going to want a site! Start selling subdomains, package them with hosting, if you don't want to build the site for them sub-contract that out. (small bits of revenue here but I'm building up!) Now if you have 10-14 semi / pseudo famous rockers building websites under your domain (umbrella) How many indie rockers will want to do the same?

I know that most bands / band members are broke (or atleast that's what they say) A general rule of thumb when it comes to sales is...People will find the money if it's something they really want! Market it that way and it will come (money that is ;)
Not having a website today is rediclious! Especially if they want to make it big!

Originally Posted by Cspelts

Wouldn’t it be great to find a way to make a site like this work? I envy wrmineo because I assume he enjoys looking at half-naked starlets all day, and guess what? He makes money doing it! I want to be like that!

Yeah how the hell did I not end up with that job? LOL
L8 M8
NeO1

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by NeO~1

Now if you have 10-14 semi / pseudo famous rockers building websites under your domain (umbrella) How many indie rockers will want to do the same?

I know that most bands / band members are broke (or atleast that's what they say) A general rule of thumb when it comes to sales is...People will find the money if it's something they really want! Market it that way and it will come (money that is ;)

I think you're on to something. Really. I've got a lot to think about!

Originally Posted by brian.mark

Really, zzounds.com has a great affiliate program with a data feed that should make it pretty simple.

Originally Posted by brian.mark

If you need any assistance in figuring that out, let me know. This sounds like it could be fun.

I may take you up on that offer! It's not something I've done before, so I may have questions.

Thank you everyone, for all your help. I'm a little amazed at how much great advice I've gotten. I was a little hesitant to lay it all out there and be so honest about my failings, but everyone has been so generous and helpful. I'm glad I did it!

Now I just have to sort it all out and decide how to proceed. It's a joy to have some fresh ideas!

[Tubby]

one thing I noticed on my own sites is the tendency for users to be lopsided. My own site has a great pull toward 'submitters' that I fight continuously.
you find this bias evident on most of the new diectories that get listed on this forum, webmasters list their sites in droves, but regular users . . .
I gave up thinking that if you had plenty of users listing content then people looking for content would follow, It does not always follow.

I would be inclined to ad a bias to your site for non musicians. I would ad incentives to musicians to actively promote their on site features, by creating some on site features that musicians will want to promote.

Optimise your site for OFF search engine traffic.

[Tubby]

one thing I noticed on my own sites is the tendency for users to be lopsided. My own site has a great pull toward 'submitters' that I fight continuously. You find this bias evident on most of the new directories that get listed on this forum, webmasters list their sites in droves, but regular users . . .I gave up thinking that if you had plenty of users listing content then people looking for content would follow, It does not always follow, it seems it attracts more users that list content.

I would be inclined to ad a bias to your site for non musicians. I would ad incentives to musicians to actively promote their on site features, by creating some on site features that musicians will want to promote.

add some Optimisation to the site for OFF search engine traffic. It is not often mentioned in this forum but there are many websites that get more traffic from peoples 'favorites' folders than they do from google . .

I think with a little imagination it would not be hard to create a couple of feature pages on some of these bands that a local group would want to advertise in a newspaper. you supply the feature. . they supply the off line advertising, get your bands placing 'links to themselves' in their local newspapers. Get the bands to direct some spenders to the site..

[wlodi]

hi,

congrats on the site.
run an internet radio with tracks from your brand new stars.
If your site is so perfect and you bands love it, ask your bands to allow you to play their tracks for free exclusively.
Perhaps, offer their tracks for $1-2 per track paiyable with SMS - that's easy, fast and secure.
If it works out and you have many listeners, contact some possible advertisers and offer not only webpage ads but also radio ads.
Delete links to your bands websites or try to track the leads.
Allow your visitors to contact your bands using your e-mail form so that you know how many people contact your bands through you. You do not need to read all these e-mail... just store them in some DB. They may be useful once.
Where is the 'Comment the concert' feature? You want the site create a sort of community, don't you? Try to force your visitors (not bands but listeners) to log in everytime they visit your website. You will be able to track how many people came back.

And finally... sell the site to Google for millions :)

have fun,
wlodi

[jomariet]

As for people looking for new music, well I think jomariet nailed that one – they want free downloads.

Guess I wasn't clear. I want to hear something free and then if it's good I'll pay for a download. 30 sec clip isn't enough though. I need at least one song, usually two or three.

The biggest problem with the dominant music services could be your biggest opportunity. They put all their resources in the established (boring) artists and offer the newcomers as afterthoughts. Stick to the indies and a NEW way of marketing music and you'll do great.

JM

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by jomariet

Guess I wasn't clear. I want to hear something free and then if it's good I'll pay for a download. 30 sec clip isn't enough though. I need at least one song, usually two or three.

You were clear - I just worded that badly - I meant what you said!

[jomariet]

I'm looking forward to seeing your next choices. My husband and I are crossing fingers that you'll choose a download service :-) We're getting bored with mainstream music and too lazy to find something interesting. Make it easy for us and we'll be one of your first sign ups!

JM

[ctabuk]

Boys and Girls, we are beating the Breakroom for the number of posts in marketing. You are all handling this topic with a huge amount of professionalism and enthusism. Keep in coming. Cheers David

[jg33]

Hello,

I just looked at your site. It is a very nice site. I was in a very similar situation like you. My website is http://www.freespiritcentre.info
The site is not in Music but Self help/personal growth... The site was free since 2002. I loved it and was working like crazy on it. No money/ no donation. Usually people will take you for granted. I almost sold it. In alexa.com I am at 47,238 if that means anything.

Until one day I said to myself, I enjoy doing the site but the site have to change but the site can not change without me changing first in my attitude about it. I find out once I started working on myself/attitude I find out I have problem accepting money. I had problem bringing money to myself. I fixed that. I used to do even free consultation not anymore. I changed my attitude and then the site attitude changed on its own. Watch your action to what you want / your way of thinking. Many times they are not in harmony.

I changed my design and the site became for member since feb.2005 and now I have over 1000 members. My membership is cheap $6 for 3 months, $10 for 6 months, $20 for 1year + 6 month free (as a promotion) and $37 for 2 years.
The site is the largest site in Canada on Personal growth with over 750 articles and over 130 authors.

I changed all my affiliates and I kept the ones who are bringing money without changing or contradicting the message of the site. I have over 11,000 subscribers to the newsletter. I have very minimum unsubscribers about 20-25 a month but I have over 500 new subscribers every month.

I have now advertising coming my way and they are calling me. I quit my regular job to concentrate on site since May 2005. It is something I enjoy so I decided to stop my 9-5pm non-sense job. My non-sense job was a very high paying job. Don't get me wrong here. I am having more fun. Site is attracting more people because I am accepting having more people and more money. I have 8 articles on the site free and for members I have over 750 articles and I add over 40 articles in a month.

The way you can buy on the site is - buy 3 months of anything and get 1 month free, buy 6 months and get 2 months free, and buy 12 months and get 3 months free. I have different combinations. Buy any three combinations or more and have additional 20% off the total bill.

I ran few months ago some almost giveaway banners promotions for some big names in my industry like Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Caroline Myss,
I was involved in three compaign for William Williamson, Barbara Rose and Betsy Thompson release of their new books. Those compaigns went to a total of over 5 millions e-mail (No Spam). Several websites get involve in the promotion and even gave some gifts from my site. We can see how the books move to #1 selling in Amazon for its category. That helped a lot my traffic.

What did I changed in the site is:

I open a business card section: Post your business card in your area and I will open your city if you don't have it. It is a one time fee which is $49.95
http://freespiritcentre.info/bizcards_montreal.php

Also I opened 'Shop With US' http://www.freespiritcentre.info/shop.php

I have 3 different products from different people now selling their products and I charge for it too. I opening my own painting now and also products with our name on it.

I sell banners everywhere and affiliates...

You might something from what I did for you.

The best advice I can give you is You need to change your attitude. Stop contradicting everything around you. What I mean here - Stop thinking I am not making money and you are trying something new. Like you go buy a loto ticket and on the counter you say but I never win and I will tell you you will never win because you do not want to win. No contradiction, your attitude and build a new drive with a bright outlook and you will see a new course will come out of it. It did work for me.

If I look at the search engines, I have over 38,000 indexes from my articles in all major search. My articles are in over 70 websites. That help my traffic too and some articles are in major websites with a link to my website.

Maybe some of this will encourage you. But you can do if you want to.

Joseph

[cspelts]

Hi Joseph, thank you for your very thoughtful and informative post. I do appreciate it!

Originally Posted by jg33

I find out I have problem accepting money.

Me too! Sounds incredible, but it's true. I always give away way too much for free. I've often thought that I need to find a really hard-nosed business person to be my partner and figure out a way to get money for all I'm currently doing for free! It's not easy to change your basic nature - so I applaud you that you did, and you succeeded. And yes, it does give me hope.

I've been given a lot of really good ideas in this thread - ideas that I can implement without having to change the basic site too much. I was afraid that I might have to go REALLY commercial in order to make it profitable. But the ideas above give me hope that I can do a little tweaking and keep the site the way I originally intended - and that is very exciting!