Safe way to get email addresses?

[ewhitaker]

I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with.

We just launched a new site which is a site that is a top lists site. You can view it at www.topgermansites.com. I'm sure many of you have seen this idea for generating traffic. The problem is that it's new and we need visitors to sign up. I've already submitted to search engines, but what is the safest way to get email address of all the german websites? I've thought about using an email extractor to gather emails from all the german sites to let everyone know this site exists, but would this be considered spam? From what I understand, it's legal as long as you provide an unsubscribe process (but this would only be a one time mailing), identify yourself, etc. And if this proves to be a good idea, what about complaints I might receive and the risk of being shut down from my ISP or webhosting provider? I have never done this type of marketing before except for opt in customers and am unsure if I should even be thinking of doing it this way.

Can I get some ideas or thoughts from some experts? I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks!
Evie

[Will.Spencer]

Even though it may be legal, it is certainly not polite or appropriate.

Spam isn't nice.

[mushroom]

E-mail links are on web pages so that "people" can make comment or ask questions about the site. With that in mind a person going to a site looking around and then making a comment and adding a message or link should not me consedered spam. But make the comment personal and relevant.

[John Glube]

Originally Posted by ewhitaker

I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with.

We just launched a new site ... You can view it at www.topgermansites.com. What is the safest way to get email address of all the german websites?

I've thought about using an email extractor to gather emails from all the german sites to let everyone know this site exists, but would this be considered spam?

From what I understand, it's legal as long as you provide an unsubscribe process (but this would only be a one time mailing), identify yourself, etc.

What about complaints I might receive and the risk of being shut down from my ISP or webhosting provider?

I have never done this type of marketing before except for opt in customers and am unsure if I should even be thinking of doing it this way.

A few questions:

* What does the acceptable use policy (AUP) for your web host have to say about transmitting unsolicited commercial email sent in bulk (UBCE) to promote a web site hosted on their network?

* Also, what does the AUP for your ISP say about UBCE?

Even though the CAN SPAM Act of 2003 does not specifically prohibit the sending of UBCE, the Act makes it clear, nothing in the Act has any bearing on the validity of policies set by Internet access services (which includes your web host and ISP) on declining to transmit, route, relay, handle, or store certain types of electronic mail messages.

(see paragraph 8 (c) of the CAN SPAM Act of 2003.

When you sign up for web hosting you agree to comply with the web host's AUP. The same is true when you sign up for internet access with an ISP.

So the first step is to check the AUPs for your web host and ISP.

These documents will set out your obligations. Most reputable ISPs and web hosts have policies prohibiting the use of their networks to transmit UBE and many web hosts also have a policy prohibiting using UBE to promote a web site hosted on their network.

Once finished reviewing the AUPs, also review the definition of spam found at Spamhaus.org.

The point? Spam is generally defined as unsolicited bulk email, meaning the email message must be both unsolicited and sent in bulk.

I add that in the recent written order of the trial judge in the case of Optinrealbig.com,LLC v IronPort Systems, Inc. and its wholly owned subsidiary, Spamcop.net, Inc., before the US District Court for the Northern District of California, declining to grant Optin's motion for a preliminary injunction against SpamCop, the Court stated:

"Spam is 'unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing
lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail.' American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, (4th ed. 2000.)

Having said this, your instinct on this issue is correct. In this regard, read:

How To Advertise Responsibly... published by the IETF

(For more on the IETF and the three guides published by the IETF on spam read The FTC Wants To Hear From You

Some marketers say it is ok to make first contact through email by sending a personal note to a specific web master (as opposed to a mass mailing)

If you decide to proceed further (presuming it is ok under the relevant AUPs) keep in mind:

* The rules in Europe about sending direct marketing email are different than in the US. The EU is an opt-in regime.

(For more on the EU rules, at least in the UK read the UK regulations and the UK Information Commissioner's Guidance. Even though the EU has said it's rules don't apply to emailers from outside of the EU, remember the old comment "When in Rome do as the Romans.")

* As to sending a one off personal note, by email, since this may be construed as a commercial email message, read The CAN-SPAM Act: Requirements for Commercial Emailers.

(Please note these rules do not apply to a commercial email message sent with affirmative consent. In particular the solicited emailer does not have to include a conspicous notice in the commercial message that it is an advertisement or solicitation.)

Trusting these comments are of some value.

Kind regards,

John Glube
Toronto, Canada

[Edited after original post.]

[ewhitaker]

Thank you for this information. I will check with my ISP and hosting company.

The difference with what I wanted to do though is that I am not sending to individual prospective customers and trying to sell them something because I have nothing to sell. My interest is in informing other "companies" that sell German related products themselves about a new site that could benefit them to increase their own traffic.

Since I would be collecting emails from sites that provide an email address to contact them, is this still categorized as spam? I am only interested in finding emails of commercial sites and not looking for emails in newsgroups, etc.

I don't know too much about email harvesting software, but aren't there ones that send directly to the email client's server instead of going through my own ISP?

[Bobkeithjr]

All good responses. I say NO spam

[John Glube]

Originally Posted by ewhitaker

...My interest is in informing other "companies" that sell German related products themselves about a new site that could benefit them to increase their own traffic.

Since I would be collecting emails from sites that provide an email address to contact them, is this still categorized as spam?

Review the definition of commercial marketing email message as found in paragraph 3 (2) (a) of the CAN SPAM Act of 2003.

What would be the primary purpose of the message you would be sending?

In answering this question, ask yourself these questions:

* Are you promoting a service?

Yes. You want to invite web site owners which market German related products to use the services of your site.

* Is your web site operated for a commercial purpose?

Yes.

As such the message you want to send falls within the definition of a commercial electronic email message as set out in the Act.

Next question:

* Has the intended recipient expressly agreed to receive the message? Do you have affirmative consent as defined in paragraph 3 (1) (a) of the Act to send the commercial message to the website owners you want to contact?

The answer is no.

Meaning you want to send an unsolicited commercial email.

Many marketers and anti-spam activists consider a one off message, which is not sent in bulk to make first contact with a specific prospect is not spam.

See the definitions and material referenced above.

This is why I also suggested you review the AUPs of your ISP and web host. Further, should you decide to proceed ensure the message is sent in compliance with the Act.

Originally Posted by ewhitaker

...I don't know too much about email harvesting software, but aren't there ones that send directly to the email client's server instead of going through my own ISP?

Perhaps. But if one has nothing to hide why use "stealth marketing software" designed for spammers?

Also, the Act has a specific provision dealing with harvesting of email addresses.

Besides the Anti-Spam Technology Alliance (ASTA), whose founding members include America Online, British Telecom, Comcast, EarthLink, Microsoft, and Yahoo! recently release a policy paper on how to deal with spam.

Under the topic of best practices for bulk emailers, ASTA stated in part:

"Do not harvest e-mail addresses (defined as collecting e-mail addresses, usually by automated means) through SMTP or other methods without the owners’ affirmative consent."

See page 14 of the Report.

Trusting these additional comments are of value.

John Glube
Toronto, Canada

[Edited after original post to correct typo error.]

[rztmail]

Originally Posted by ewhitaker

I don't know too much about email harvesting software, but aren't there ones that send directly to the email client's server instead of going through my own ISP?

If you want safe mailing take some stealth mailer like send-safe www.send-safe.com.

[xmx]

A suggestion I can give you for your site is
to add it to other top sites websites.

Normally people that add their links to top
sites websites like to add to as many as they
can and often they find the new ones directly
in the listings on the sites whey they already
added their links.

This should increase both traffic and signups.

[fnarf999]

Originally Posted by ewhitaker

I don't know too much about email harvesting software, but aren't there ones that send directly to the email client's server instead of going through my own ISP?

What you are describing is "direct to mx", and if you do it to me, you'll be permanently blocked forever. No second chances, ever.

You simply cannot "harvest" addresses. Using them is spamming, period. People have to ASK YOU to send them email; that's what "solicited" means.

You need to verify that the addresses are real, of course, but that's secondary to BEING ASKED. You do NOT use email to go out looking for customers; you use it to enable them to contact you.

[fnarf999]

Originally Posted by rztmail

If you want safe mailing take some stealth mailer like send-safe www.send-safe.com.

Stealth mailing is spamming. send-safe.com is a notorious criminal spamming program (hosted by the Russian Mafia) that will get you blown off every reputable ISP there is. Your emails won't make it through to my domain, that's for sure. DON'T USE IT.

The best way to market is to have a good product. If you have a good product people will find it. If people aren't finding your product, it's probably because your product is bad.

No offense, ma'am, but yet another "top sites" website isn't a good product idea. There are an infinite number of them, and they are all nothing more than collections of collections of collections of bad junk nobody wants to see.

An intelligently placed Google ad will do you so much more business than these spamming subterfuges.