Which browser::: Shopping online?

[kgun]

1. Facts - I have been:

1. Surfing the web since the mid 1990's.
2. Shopping online.
3. Experienced no fraud and identity theft.

2. My personal recommendation:

1. Use the latest version of Opera when shopping online.
2. Turn JavaSript off while shopping online. F12
3. Opera's general principle is to trust no internet site. JavaScript can have been installed on trusted sites.
4. Server scripting is more secure than client scripting - JavaScript.
5. Don't rely on any site that force you to use JavaScript when shopping.

3. Note:

1. If another browser is your favorite browser for surfing, eg. Google Chrome since that is a minimalistic fast browser, you open that browser from Opera when you are finished shopping.
2. That is done by: Right click + Open with.

4. W3 Schools JavaScript statistics:

Because more and more internet sites have AJAX functionality where the J indicates JavaScript. That also implies that more and more surfers surf with JavaScript turned on. That is a potential security threat, so turn JavaScrip off when shopping online. According to W3 Schools, 95 % surf the web with JavaScript turned on in 2009. That is the highest number registered on W3 Schools since January 2000.

You find the statistics if you scroll down this

Browser Statistics

page. Also note the short message: "Statistics Are Often Misleading".

A last additional advice: Never surf the web as an administrator.

[kgun]

WPW, thank you for bringing this utmost important subject to the front page. Just before I saw this post, I finished a short post with the same subject under the heading:

"Advice for online shoppers."

Hopefully it will reduce online fraud with some million USD's.

Related links:

Old (2004 link): Online fraud costs $2.6 billion this year.

December 11, 2008: Cybersource survey recorded $ 4 billion to online fraud this year

Tue Mar 17, 2009: Airlines Tackle $1.4 Billion Online Fraud Challenge

[ctabuk]

Well, from the minute I started using Opera I noticed a total change in my use of adaware - Opera catches problems before they do any harm. I do have one niggle with it. I use photobucket a great deal and in Opera I cannot edit pictures, as it says that it does not support the system.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

I do have one niggle with it. I use photobucket a great deal and in Opera I cannot edit pictures, as it says that it does not support the system.

My bolding.

Do you mean read?

[ctabuk]

No I mean literally 'edit' changing picture sizes for boards. I have to revert to another browser and then do it.

SElf Edit - In fact in the photobucket forum admin state

Hi there,

We do not fully support the use of Opera browser. You may wish to try another recommended browser as an alternative.

[kgun]

Is it possible to give an example?

[ctabuk]

No, you simply get a blank page. I'll learn to live with it!

[innominds]

I prefer Mozilla Firefox for online shopping. It is the most secured browser.

[kgun]

Today I found this Google Chrome JavaScript Speed Test|Emad Ibrahim interesting article.

I noted the following term in the comments (page search Opera):

"try opera, for some reason with prototype it owns the competition =P but that's the only one that's faster, otherwise, google chrome ftw!"

(Related link: P-Competition)

That is based on JavaScript library tests.

Note: Point 4 in my short article about (first link in my second post).

"Advice for online shoppers"

[kgun]

I made an interesting observation today that is related to professionalism.

I looked for the following resource:

JavaScript Security: Signed Scripts

The reason, I read this in chapter 3 page 85 of this book: AJAX and PHP: Building Responsive Web Applications.

You can make FireFox listen to all requests, even those coming from unsigned scripts by typing about:config in the address bar, and changing the value of signed.applets.codebase_principals_support to true.

Try it yourself. It is security related and can still be done in the latest version of FF. Message: Be careful if you shop on line from a computer using FF that is not under your control.

At the same time I made the following searches:

internet explorer security site:microsoft.com

First hit here: Internet Explorer 6: Working with Internet Explorer 6 Security Settings

opera security sitepera.com

mozilla security site:mozilla.org

chrome security site:google.com

My conclusion:

1. Mozilla and Opera are according to the above reported hits most professional on informing about their security model.
2. It is very difficult to find information about the IE security model on microsoft.com.
3. The top hit from Google here is Google Chrome Security and Privacy Risks - comp.internet.services.google | Google Groups
   
   The other hits are not comparable to the top hits from Mozilla and Opera.

Another observation regarding browser configuration about:config in FF and opera:config in Opera. FF gives you a warning. Great FireFox. But according to the above mentioned book page 84:

"You have no way of convincing Opera 8.5 to allow the JavaScript code to access a different server than the one it was loaded from."

I can not see that IE and Chrome have a similar option.

[full house]

I'm not sure about opera, I only have FF and IE here and both are working perfectly. I tried Chrome and I don't like it, I find it hard and too slow to load.

[kgun]

1. Did you note the heading?
2. Is that a general comment or related to the topic of this thread?

[treker]

For me better option is Firefox, open-source browser, because it's code is checked from thousands of people in the world.

[kgun]

1. So you would secure your house and publish it all over the internet how it is done? Would that make your house more secure?
2. Install one of the millions of FF plugins and assume you are sure?
3. I think I would not hire you as a security specialist.

[moneymen]

Definitely firefox
currently the best browser there is

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

Definitely firefox
currently the best browser there is

1. Best for what?
2. This post is about security.
3. Please, read from the beginning.
4. Reread and then comment if you have a comment on this security related topic.

As a webmaster, I use FF. FireFox has a lot of exellent plugins that is great for webmasters. But the same plugins are a security risk. If you don't understand that, be careful before you post such short messages, IMO without relevance to the topic.
Can you guarantee that there is no FF plugin or Toolbar with malware?

[moneymen]

I know its post about security i am reading before i post as u said its good for web masters also because of its plugins
But i was referring on the things that are built ed inside like the ability to spot and warn u on suspicious and potentially harming websites like scam pages and infected websites

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

I know its post about security i am reading before i post as u said its good for web masters also because of its plugins

But does that make the browser more or less secure? Does open code make the browser more or less secure? This is not about general security unrelated software.

Originally Posted by moneymen

But i was referring on the things that are built ed inside like the ability to spot and warn u on suspicious and potentially harming websites like scam pages and infected websites

1. Is that enough to rate it as the best browser for online shopping?
2. What do you know about FF's previlige based security model?
3. What do you know about Opera's security model? Most probably very little or nothing.
4. Do other browsers have that ability? I see now that FF warns you about unsecure certificates, after Opera have had that functionality for a long time.

[moneymen]

I see u are Big fan of Opera so i give up.But firefox still stay best for me and tons of other people.Am not saying that opera is bad i just think its not best one nowdays although its was before

"But does that make the browser more or less secure? Does open code make the browser more or less secure? This is not about general security unrelated software.
" on my opinion open code is better coz it allow u to configure it fully according to your needs also to u can get allot of security addons which will make your shopping much more pleasant
But nvm i am not here to start a fight with u opera VS firefox
I simply expresed my opinion on the issue based on my expirience

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

I see u are Big fan of Opera so i give up.But firefox still stay best for me and tons of other people.Am not saying that opera is bad i just think its not best one nowdays although its was before

I am also a fan of FF and uses it daily for different purposes.

1. I would not recommend an other browser that Opera to new surfers.
2. I would not recommend an other browser than Opera for Online shopping. Nobody has so long convinced me that there is a more secure browser for that purpose, and that is the subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by moneymen

But nvm i am not here to start a fight with u opera VS firefox I simply expresed my opinion on the issue based on my expirience

This is not a fight. Opinions with facts are valuable. So long you have only produced words to fill WPW's server with nonsense. And, since you are a security expert, you should be able to bring facts to the table.

Originally Posted by moneymen

... so i give up.

Sometimes that is the best option.

[moneymen]

OKi u want some facts Your shopping security relies more on the websites security and not on your browser security.Most of the Identity stealing and personal information is steeled from websites databases not via javascript on websites.that will protect u only if website have some malicios javascript installed on it.But if your info is stored on the website that doesn't use javascript but its vulnerable on some other point and it gets hacked your info will get stolen since it has nothing to do with the browser that u are using.As for opera disabling javascript firefox also have the option for it and it doesn't trust sites like u said.Also allot of great big and secure shopping sites also use javascript so by using that what u are suggesting u are excluding them

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

OKi u want some facts Your shopping security relies more on the websites security and not on your browser security.

One of Opera's security principles is:

"Don't rely on any website".

The same message from Cisco but in other words:
Cisco 2008 annual security report::: The invisible hacker.

Originally Posted by moneymen

Also allot of great big and secure shopping sites also use javascript so by using that what u are suggesting u are excluding them

That is a general advice:
"It is very easy to turn off JavaScript by hitting F12 and and uncheck the JavaScript box. Don't shop on a site that forces you to use JavaScript, even if it is on a secure server HTTPS. Here is an example for the tech freak: No love for the module pattern? "

Some browsers have better default options and make such acelleration keys easier to use. I have heard people say that once they installed Opera, they got rid of all annoying pop ups etc. by default.

Again which facts can you bring to the table about FF's and Opera's security model?

[innominds]

I thought Mozilla Firefox as the best browser as it is known for security but your recommendation is quiet helpful.

[moneymen]

Man your whole post on Safe shopping with Opera is based on issue on javascript

Turn JavaSript off while shopping online. F12

Opera's general principle is to trust no internet site. JavaScript can have been installed on trusted sites.

Server scripting is more secure than client scripting - JavaScript.

Don't rely on any site that force you to use JavaScript when shopping.

W3 Schools JavaScript statistics:

Because more and more internet sites have AJAX functionality where the J indicates JavaScript. That also implies that more and more surfers surf with JavaScript turned on. That is a potential security threat, so turn JavaScrip off when shopping online. According to W3 Schools, 95 % surf the web with JavaScript turned on in 2009. That is the highest number registered on W3 Schools since January 2000.

So like i said 90% of your post about opera security for shopping is based on the javascript issue which is only 2% of potential danger

so i don't so where are the facts in your post

mostly its based on your opinion from surfing and shopping i don't see any facts there just your personal expression


and according to the your saying that users like opera more i think the statistics that u posted "back it up" leading of firefox in every month

i think i proven my point here

there is nothing in your post that actually is convincing that opera is safer for online shopping than firefox,not a single thing

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

Man your whole post on Safe shopping with Opera is based on issue on javascript

I only repeat this statement where I have bolded one word for you.

"Don't rely on any site that force you to use JavaScript when shopping".

Originally Posted by moneymen

So like i said 90% of your post about opera security for shopping is based on the javascript issue which is only 2% of potential danger

1. Where have you got that number from? Source please.
2. Go back to my original post.

Originally Posted by moneymen

so i don't so where are the facts in your post

mostly its based on your opinion from surfing and shopping i don't see any facts there just your personal expression

1. Is it a fact that FireFox is open source?
2. Do you think Opera's engineers have and constantly study that source code?
3. Is it a fact that there are thousands of FireFox plugins?
4. Can you or anyone else guarantee that there are no security holes related to these plugins?

Answer these questions please before you continue.

Originally Posted by moneymen

and according to the your saying that users like opera more i think the statistics that u posted "back it up" leading of firefox in every month

i think i proven my point here

1. "your saying that users like opera more" Where?
2. You have proven nothing.

Originally Posted by moneymen

there is nothing in your post that actually is convincing that opera is safer for online shopping than firefox,not a single thing

Can you bring some facts on the opposite? I have reported some facts above. My time with you are running out.

[moneymen]

Is it a fact that FireFox is open source?
Do you think Opera's engineers have and constantly study that source code?
Is it a fact that there are thousands of FireFox plugins?
Can you or anyone else guarantee that there are no security holes related to these plugins?

1. Yes firefox is open source that is what makes it so good.Nobody i forcing u to use non prooven plugins like nobody is forcing u to use javascript with or without opera its irelevant.
2.Am not saying that they don't study on the code but here is one fact for your Open source means allot more people working on it.Bigger team bigger chance to make safer browser.everybody knows that open source is better than and its developing better while its open source
3.Yes there is tons of FF plugins but u are not forced to use them nobody mentioned u must use those plugins
4.can u quaranty that there is no security holes on the opera.There is no browser that has no holes inside that is the fact.I doesn't mater is it opera,firefox IE or any other they all have it so there goes of your fact

another fact Top 6 Alternatives for McAfee SiteAdvisor - Browse Safe - browser, browser defender, defender, firefox, mcafee, phish, phishing, security, siteadvisor, threatexpert, web of trust, WOT - Technically Personal!


according to mcafee if i don't concider their payed browser since of course they will put it in forst place they sell it
there u go fact from experts that ff is the best one.and also some plugins recomended by them for safe browsing and safe shopping
also u can read there "Mozilla Firefox has a built-in security feature where it can block some attack sites and web forgeries. It works fine, but in my opinion, it is a little annoying when I want to ignore the warning and continue accessing the “attack site”." u can read rest of the article on the link i provided



"Shop and do business safely on the Internet. Firefox gets a fresh update of web forgery sites 48 times in a day, so if you try to visit a fraudulent site that’s pretending to be a site you trust (like your bank), a browser message—big as life—will stop you."

copy pasted from firefox site
u can check it here

Firefox web browser | Features: Faster, more secure, & customizable | Mozilla Europe
check the sections Anti-phishing and
Customized Security Settings


i think its enough
On the links above u will find allot of security advantages of firefox for browsing and online shopping compared to one that u mentioned in opera disabling javascript and warning on the websites that use it

and am not planing to continue this debate with u here since it is turning in to the spamming of the thread i

I think on above links u will find allot of experts prooving u what am trying to tell u whole time so i will let them continue thius debate with you u since its pointless for me to i know that on the reply on this post u will think of some new "fact" just to continue activity of your thread and i think that is what u actually want its not about browsers anymore

[kgun]

1. Since you introduce yourself as a "Security expert and SEO noob here"
2. Since you are online. So long you have used less than 5 minutes to respond to my posts. I give you 15 minutes to explain:
   - Encapsulation.
   - The difference between private, protected and public class elements.
   - What is a friend of a class?
3. On the rest you can use as long time as you want. Since JavaScript don't seem to be a big issue for you. Why are server scripting generally, ie. ceteris paribus, more secure than browser scripting? If you don't agree on that, explain why.
4. Do you regard a privileged based security model more secure than Opera's security model? Do you know Opera's security model?
5. Note, I don't regard myself as a security expert, so it should be simple to explain this to the surfer and WPW's members.
6. In short it should be simple for you as a security expert to convince me that FireFox is a more secure browser than Opera.
7. So use 15 minutes from this post is posted to answer point 2 please.
8. The longer time you use, the less convinced am I on your security expertise.

So (s)he logged out without answering.

[moneymen]

Rofl only god can convince u on something and nobody else and am online even if am offline if u know what does that mean.

As i said before i wont continue this debate and make your tread popular that way

i have no nerves for your childish games
go find some younger folks and force them to accept your opinion coz am not convinced
and on the statistics u provided on your first post show that am not the only one
as for the 15 minutes that u give me rofl u really think that u are my only worie and that i spent 15 minutes replying your post.Who do u think u are to order me something

"I give you 15 minutes to explain" who do u think u are ????Man get a life



p.s. As i see u can't stand critique please stay away from my posts and i will stay away from yours.One reply to your post at the beggining and i find all my posts and topic replayed with your sarcasm (attacked by u in every way)

go get a life and leave me allone.....

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

i have no nerves for your childish games
go find some younger folks and force them to accept your opinion coz am not convinced

I agree, you should have strong nerves to discuss this topic. Online scam and fraud is a multibillion business. See my second post: Which browser::: Shopping online?

Originally Posted by moneymen

"I give you 15 minutes to explain" who do u think u are ????Man get a life

A simple man concerned about online security.

If you don't know about encapsulation and private data members, you get a A soft introduction to object oriented programming. here.

[moneymen]

I agree, you should have strong nerves to discuss this topic. Online scam and fraud is a multibillion business. See my second post: Which browser::: Shopping online?

ya i should have strong nerves but not coz of that reason but coz am debating with someone who know shit about scams and fraud on the net and its so stubborn so it doesn't want to admit that he was wrong

A simple man concerned about online security.

That sounded like ordering me to explain u something.U better watch the tone of your voice if u are pissed that u got beaten in debate go and find some to gym and cool it of don't feed your complexes here as i wont allow u

that is it for me on this thread

Admins will u please close this topic obviously man cant stand that his opinion is not numero uno for other people


Like i said i have no time or nerves for this

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

p.s. As i see u can't stand critique please stay away from my posts and i will stay away from yours...

1. Can't stand critique or discussion?
2. I will not stand away from your posts if I think you are wrong on security related issues.
3. The reason I gave you 15 minutes is obvious. You should not copy posts from the internet. You have still not answered that post.
4. Note, I have discussed with extremely clever copy cats that gave the impression that they had at least a undergraduate degree in mathematics.
5. This is not a childish game. It is about online security. Do you agree?
6. And give me the respect that I can decide when this thread should be closed.
7. I see no reason to close it, since I am open to new information.

[moneymen]

U are not open to anything so its pointless
get a life man

[kgun]

I shall stay on topic. As far as I know Opera is the only webbrowser that has an extra security layer, a master password.

1. Will the master password make the browser more or less secure? You only need to answer yes / no.
2. I can not see that you have made a singel fact of why FireFox is more secure than Opera when you shop online.
3. I have made many for Opera. Reread the thread if you don't find these facts.

[moneymen]

I shall stay on topic. As far as I know Opera is the only webbrowser that has an extra security layer, a master password.

this confirm that u know nothing about it firefox is using master password option since long time ago

1.Of course that master password is an extra security layer but only against FEDS if u are criminal.Has nothing to do with identity theft from browser unless someone is trying to steal your bookmarks which is wont happen in 99% because there is no good use of anyones bookmarks

I can not see that you have made a single fact of why FireFox is more secure than Opera when you shop online.

2.I think that links to posts where security experts from big companies confirm that firefox is better give enough facts inside unless u are blind ?

I have made many for Opera. Reread the thread if you don't find these facts.

3.Please count me those facts excluding those related to javascript since its the only thing u based your post on

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

this confirm that u know nothing about it firefox is using master password option since long time ago

That was a test to see what you know.

1. How long time ago?
2. Before Opera?

Originally Posted by moneymen

I think that links to posts where security experts from big companies confirm that firefox is better give enough facts inside unless u are blind ?

Here Internet Explorer 8 Released is a thread that should interest you as a security expert. It also tells a story of how I trust such reports. If you don't take the time to read the whole thread, wait until it redirects to post #40

Internet Explorer 8 Released

Originally Posted by moneymen

... u are blind ?

3.Please count me those facts excluding those related to javascript since its the only thing u based your post on

And you do not refer to the important source about your 2 % statement that I asked for. That should be a more important and relevant source. Especially if it is documented by many independent companies, cross checked.

[Doc]

moneymen, I think you'll find that debates and discussions are much more productive, if you leave your abusive attitude at the door, and discuss the topic, rather than attacking the poster. The only person you will convince with such a caustic attitude is yourself, and it would seem that you're already quite certain of your stance on the topic.

[moneymen]

That was a test to see what you know.

rofl man don't make me laugh more than am already laughing the comments u post

Here Internet Explorer 8 Released is a thread that should interest you as a security expert. It also tells a story of how I trust such reports. If you don't take the time to read the whole thread, wait until it redirects to post #40

yes FF have more FOUND bugs than opera coz of one simple reason its way to popular and in the leading position in the usage of browsers which makes it attractive for searching bugs.Opera is museum example now used more rarely every day.Also if u check those vulns u will find that 99% of those vulns have and cannot be used for exploiting your identity while shopping online(DDOS.BOF and STACK OVERFLOW,MEMORY CORUPTION)milw0rm - exploits : vulnerabilities : videos : papers : shellcode <<<firefox

Also if u search for opera there u will find less vulns but more dangerous for your identity
Xss -for stealing your cookies
File creation and execution --Which will allow them to run and execute password stealer or any RAT or whatever they want
code execution- allowing to execute pretty simple code that will grab everything and store it where ever they want

And you do not refer to the important source about your 2 % statement that I asked for. That should be a more important and relevant source. Especially if it is documented by many independent companies, cross checked.

and again u didn't mentioned any facts from your post excluding javascipt so it proves my point that your whole security post is based on javascript disabling


P.S.

R.I.P. to stroke

[kgun]

I wish you good luck and advise you to continue here: Need reviews and have some questions

Please, don't market yourself as a security expert: Security expert and SEO noob here

Very much is awaited of a security expert. That is the main reason for my arrogant tone. You should understand that.

[moneymen]

Thanks for the invite i watch that post like i said am SEO noob and not pretending to be expert there when am not

Man i don't care about your arrogant tone i got used to fight with people that are more experienced than any of us when i know am right so it doesn't bother me much


And i am security expert mostly for web related things pentesting and protection things

worked long time for the companies but got sick of the thing that i get only small % of the deal and i do the work fully

So now i started as freelancer

At least now i know if do some pentesting or securing job i get the money i asked and not some % that company will give me just because they have website and customer contacted them to find someone to do the work

u know what i mean.Now am my own boss and in what i do pentesting and protecting am one of the best regardless of do u think its true or not

of course again respect to people like str0ke that spent a life dealing with security
to bad i didn't had time to meet him

[kgun]

Originally Posted by moneymen

And i am security expert mostly for web related things pentesting and protection things.

Yes you signed up as a security expert, and you started by commenting on my thread. As I told you, I don't regard myself as a security expert, and I am suere if sombody from Opera had participated in this thread, I would soon be identified as an amateur. It was not without reason I asked you about, encapsulation, private and protected class members and class friend functions that you have still not answered. I have talked to person's from the Simula (see the last link in my signature for more information) miljeu and feel like an amateur when talking It with them. C++, one of the better languages, allows frined functions that break the principle of encapsulation since you get access to another classes private data through a friend function. As far as I remember that was considered bad object oriented programming from the Simulat people like goto statements in code. In short what we call spagetthi programming. So you market yourself as an "expert mostly for web related things" without being able to say a word about Opera's security model versus FireFox model that we know are previlge based.


Are you surprised that you got a reaction in the way:

1. you signed up
2. and your first post about Opera?

If you want to compare the security risks in JavaScript and PHP versus C / C++ you are invited to read the C++Builder 2010 PDF document that you can download from the last link in my signature.