A company was founded which looked at a new market where there was alot of growth. A B2B software as a service (subscription based web-application) offering was identified.

There are a few competitors in the field. The company essentially used the best competitor as a "model" and copied most of the features. BUT - specifically re-created the interface, all the text, images, etc. The application looks different and nowhere does the app attempt to mislead the user that they are using the competitors product. But - its is a knock-off.

The company spoke with legal and they all agreed - the exposure to infringement is limited as precedent is generally set that the solution to a problem via implementation of a set of features is NOT owned intellectual property. There are lots of examples.

The ethics are still questionable of course.

Please comment. I am interested in of course criticism as well as suggestion as to how to defend against them if they attack. It has even crossed my mind to directly contact them and offer an olive branch. LOL thoughts please.

What do you want comments on? If who attacks. I do not really understand the question about defense and attack . Did I miss something?

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Assuming you are not infringing on intellectual rights, ie. copyright, trademark, patent? Its ethical. It produces competition which in the end will typically benefit consumers (or in this case your end users since it appears that this focuses on B2B)

Is the Honda Insight a knock-off of the Toyota Prius?

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Attack? By what, suing you? If you're not infringing you have nothing to worry about, if you are, well, then what you're doing is unethical to begin with. Olive branch?

Forget it, that is going nowhere and is the beginning of (unlawful no less) anti-competitive collusion.

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Doesn't that say enough?

Well, by legal definition, a knock off is a counterfeit:
A copy or imitation of something that is intended to be taken as authentic and genuine in order to deceive another.

There are many specialized programs that will of course be similar since they serve the same masters, for example bookkeeping software. All will have similar features: general journal entries, check printing, reports and so on.


I don't think it is legally actionable unless you are stealing code or something like that. Since you even ask, I am suspicious about how much you are duplicating the original. And I would definitely steer clear of any effort to "knock off" the name or any branding images.

There are probably a few hundred or even a few thousand people reskinning Gmail and selling to other people.

I am not sure if I understand what constitutes a knock off.

Are you trying to protect your intellectual property? Why not get a copyright lawyer invovled. Nobody on a web master forum is really going to side with you or do anything for you.

Or... why not go hang out with the yardies and see if they can do anything for you on the cheap?

Just a thought...

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Olive Branch? That reminds me of the second-story man who, after stealing a family's jewellery and electronics gave them a call and said, "I thought I would be a nice guy and return the egg whisk because I was hoping it might appease you."

If you take an existing product and make substantial improvements to it to satisfy a marketplace then that is a knock-off. If on the other hand, you change a couple of colours through CSS and change the appearance of a box without making any intellectual improvements that, quite simply is theft and, regardless of being in business to serve the bottom line, it speaks to one's integrity.

Your concern appears to be in the form of litigation and if I may suggest, if you do not have adequate knowledge of the "re-worked programme" and do not have any substantive support, litigation by the originator from whom you stole the product might very well be the least of your worries.

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I tend to disagree, if you decided to manufacture white cotton t-shirts, are you knocking-off Hanes? The question is whether the product offered rises to the level of violating an existing copyright, trademark or patent. If it doesn't, its no different from Pepsi and Coke, white t-shirts, or a generic manufacturer of certain medicines.

Under the circumstances, we really don't have enough information to make the call one way or the other.

If we look at the definition of 'knock off' we see: Informal To copy or imitate, especially without permission. Copying is generally unethical, imitating is generally not unethical.

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Burger King is a knock off of McDonalds in the literal sense.

Business is war...

War is hell....

Take no quarter!!!!!!!

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Sounds to me that your are asking about ethics but only really concerned about legal repercussions. These are two separate issues. You clearly believe you are engaged in something "wrong", yet you really have no intent of doing anything about it unless forced to by a judge. Otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up.

We have no idea if you are infringing. Only a judge and jury can decide that. I suggest either just coming to terms with what you're involved in or get out of the business. Fishing for sympathy is not the proper way to deal with cognitive dissonance.

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Claytowne Graphic Design and Web Design in Santa Cruz, CA | Product Packaging Design | Logo Design and Corporate Brand Identity

I think everyone has struggled with this issue at one time or another if they have done anything involving creativity.

Years ago I offered tutoring on a variety of computer related topics, Introduction to PCs, MS Office, stuff like that. As a matter of putting together the content I was going to cover, I reviewed a few video tapes on the same subjects. I had no intent of copying the material. I was simply seeing if I had missed something obvious that I should cover in my material.

I was offering a service and used a product as reference. Did I do something wrong? Absolutely not. The computer store I worked for sold the video tapes. I was offering tutoring for an hourly fee. In my case the content of the video tapes and the content of my tutoring were often the same. The very nature of the material made the solutions the same. If I teach someone how to change the margins in MS Word, am I infringing on the content of the video tapes? No.

If I were to look at the success of Video Professor and think to myself "Maybe I should also offer video tape tutoring?" Would I then be infringing? Most likely not unless I was trying to mimic their videos to the T. Look alike actors, sets, paraphrased dialog etc.

It is a necessary part of product development to review competing products and note the pros and cons. This later helps in marketing.

Where you must be careful is Copyright and Patent issues.

An aside:
I designed a subwoofer speaker enclosure for my car. It has 2 chambers each a base reflex design tuned at 2 different frequencies. The driver itself was located between the chambers. The front of the speaker delivered sound to one chamber the rear of the speaker delivered sound to the other chamber. I had a rough idea that the 2 sides would combine to produce more volume that either alone. I thought it was brilliant. I had immediate ideas of selling the design to car stereo shops. However, I later learned that what I had designed on my own was in-fact patented by Bose. The box I invented is what is known as a 6th order bandpass speaker enclosure. Can I make them and sell them? No. My design was developed completely independent and doesn't even resemble theirs, but the theory behind its working is patented.

My only satisfaction comes from the results I had gotten in my car and knowing I came up with it on my own. My 1 12" subwoofer running on 380 Watts is loud enough that it knocked the rear view mirror off my windshield! It is over 130dB and low power consumption. I still can't sell them.

Clay pretty well hits my feelings, as well. To me, a knock-off is intrinsically underhanded. Deciding to market white T-shirts is simply breaking into a niche, but trying to capitalize on someone else's marketing, design and niche development is not what I would consider to be honest and above board.

As was almost said, if you're asking, you already know the answer. Don't come looking for professionals to validate your behavior.

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I may be confused... are you / the "company" the victim or are you the one "who copied most of the features".

You start as a third party making comments then ask questions which indicate being a participant - but not making clear what your own involvement is.

If you are the victim - IMO - all you can do is make the best job of whatever it is you do.

If you are the one trying to do in the victim..... maybe you should study your ethics.

Lol. There a hundreds of websites that get uploaded daily that are 'knock offs' I was talking to one the other week that told he he had a better version of Ebay. .

I said Ebay had a few hundred thousand items to buy - that's why people go to ebay.

He insisted his version was far more user friendly. I asked what it cost - He told me he got it from geteafreelancer.com and had chosen a fantastic design. all up costs US$250.

Poor Ebay. . . they will not know what hit them. . .

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I also got an email from a programmer that explained to me he had duplicated my classified ads program and he would like to sell me a version .

I asked him if he had a version on the net I could look at. He said No, It was not a working version.

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Gee, Tubby, I don't know how you could resist a compelling sales pitch like that!

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If I ever stop learning, let the wolves have my carcass.
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There are many knock-offs to YouTube, and some were blatantly copied.

Unoriginal? sure.

Unethical? I'll leave that to a philosophy class.

Illegal? If it was, I'd say that YouTube would have put an end to that years ago

So I doubt that a knock-off site is going to get you into trouble, but if in doubt, get an Internet IP (Intellectual Property) lawyer to give his advice.

Just my 2 cents.

Matt

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Dod said
"Gee, Tubby, I don't know how you could resist a compelling sales pitch like that!"

well My thinking was ; If he had made a copy that worked I would be interested . I do not have a program. . . I never worked out how to make one...

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Well, there's the old argument I've heard before of 'nothing's original'. Everything is influenced by everything else, whethere it be colour, form, idea etc.

I agree with the posts above - if you're mimicking some brand or other, to try to dupe customers into thinking yours is the same product, it's a rip off. I wouldn't say because something looks like something else it's necessarily a rip off.

Every single person on this forum probably has at least one website. Their inspiration for that site may have come from anywhere - nature, print, tv, other websites, anything visual at all. There are only so many combinations of line, form and colour out there. Some designs or elements of designs are bound to look similar.

I'm not a 'Sue them for free' lawyer though. And they have sharp teeth.

Darren

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Web Design Bournemouth | PC Repair Bournemouth

Going to a lawyer to get ethics advice is like going to the devil for advice on how to get to heaven. Lawyers have no ethics save what is or isn't against the law. Just because it is legal does not make it ethical. Lots of people whether legal or not will not like that it is essentially a stolen idea. For what can happen when you are found out look no further than the SEO Book and Random Foreskin disagreement over Linkscraper. I'd say someone has now got a huge repuatation problem in a market where rep is a big part of a company cache. It's likely legal what Mr Foreskin decided to do but in the aftermath I bet he's second guessing himself. Of course when your audience are essentially sheeple... it's less of a problem... ah the blind leading the blind... I see.

Business is war... but when you Pearl Harbor a competitor... expect the BOMB!

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Years ago while 2 small companies were just getting started, one had a great idea. He told his friend about the idea and the friend took it and ran with it. Years later Microsoft is still the king of software and Apple, while eventually finding its own niche years later, has taken years to become a real force.

As I was told years ago, ultimately there are no New Ideas. Just a different twist on how to make them work. If you took the ideas of what was done by another, but developed it yourself and made it better, then by all means enjoy it. The Japanese have been doing that to our automobiles for decades and always seem to make something better.

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If you are trying to make a better mouse trap then go for it, If you are taking someones idea and duplicating it and then change it a little with the intent to make it look different to avoid the fact that you copied it...no so cool.

Thing are always changed to make them better, its called progress.

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Lake County Santa Cruz Sonoma County

Anytime you think you might need an IP lawyer, you need an IP lawyer.

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Ron http://www.chalicemedia.com Distributed Creative Content Architecture

My thoughts, exactly.

... and not us.

Is it? Based on that priciple every motor vehicle on the road is a Knock off. Every Vacuum cleaner apart from Hoover ones are a knock off, we even refer to them in error as "hoovers" even if made by a different company.

I find that difficult to believe a group of lawyers all agreeing...wow!

So are many lawyers, but are the ethics questionable? Based on your thoughts I am so excited as I know it was my Ancestors who invented the wheel...............And some guy called Dunlop came along and ripped the idea off......Think I should sue?

/astro

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I would just like to add... Is every single spreadsheet application a knock off of each other?

What about every forum application?

What about every chat application?

I think an application for the most part is recognized as being a "type" of application, or a "standard" of an application.

Eventually you'll probably see the big name companies allow users to plug and play various different types of apps in a "mash-up" fashion if they haven't already.

Software is junk... it's your brand that matters... and for all of our sakes... let's hope it's not the brand which we rely on to get the job done, but rather the skill of the user in a service based economy...

How's that sound?

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Any competent programmer given enough time and effort can duplicate another company's program. There is not much that can be done about that, absent patents and lots of money. It is going to be a marketing battle.

However, the original poster mentioned images, etc.

Using someone else's images, artwork and design elements is a copyright violation and one that is fairly easy to prove. If someone did that to my company I would sue them into the ground if in the USA or any civilized country. Elsewhere there are other methods.

Which delves into the .223 or wildcat rounds mentioned in another thread...

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If I ever stop learning, let the wolves have my carcass.
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http://carforums-online.com

Makes me wonder how any of the open office developers are still alive...

For that matter... it makes me wonder how in the last 3-4 years, nearly every single browser vendor has followed conventions till they are nearly identical to each other...

I guess that explains "bing"

Pepsi or Coca Cola?



Honestly... I can just imagine 30,000 people around the world screaming at the top of their lungs, "PEPSI!!! YOU STOLE MY LOGO!!!"

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Laugh my a** off!

Send in the airstrike and take em down!

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Dictionary Definition

the moral principles governing or influencing conduct / the branch of knowledge concerned with moral principles

All about knowing right from wrong which sadly seems to be becoming a rare quality these days.

Steve

'The meek shall inherit the Earth!
If that's all right with everybody else'