I'm sure everyone here knows or remembers of the law suit back in 2005 "I believe it was" where it was taken to court and debated if a person was legally able to sell their items or accounts that they or their online character owns. Since then there has been a few law suits on this matter of who owns what in the virtual world. This mostly is geared toward the online gaming world. I have been searching this topic and trying to keep up with it, but the web is getting cluttered with blogs and such posting second hand info and opinions that trying to find actual law and truth is very time consuming.

What I'm trying to find out and would like peoples input on here is.
Away from the gaming world who owns what when it comes to.

Forum post: if a person post a article on your forum that they wrote who owns it?

Galleries: who owns the images once uploaded? Does the owner of the gallery have to right to sell them or upload them to another site?

Communities: Who owns the custom template you paid for that is on MySpace? Who owns the images? if I "copy it" can anything happen to me?

Templates: If you download a a free template and change the colors, header and images did you just change the design and can call it yours?

RSS feeds: Who own the content on RSS? Google has a TOS that you have to sign before you can display their ads. I do not have to sign any TOS to display your RSS feed. Does this mean I can change it?

If I run a Paid membership site and show ads or content from other sites "article sites that are paid membership as a example" do I have to pay you royalties if I show your ad or article since I'm charging people to see it?

these are just a few examples and there are more I'm sure. The rule of thumb is the items belong to who post it first. But if this is the case how can you legally change it? If they post a link how can you add a no-follow when you do not own the link? every blog owner has the option to edit comments that are posted to their blog. if they do not own that comment how can they do this?

No one wants people to copy their site or use their images. But how many of us actually has copied righted them? And how much of that image or content does one have to change before they can call it theirs? Many people also change wording in articles to prevent duplicate content issues, in doing this did they also violate copyright laws since they do not own that article or do they have the right to change it since it is now on their site?

I'm trying to get true legal input here but also start a friendly debate on this matter. Some of these question have been asked by people here so I though I start a debate on it.

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The Sensual Touch Lingerie | High Heels | High Heel Blog

Off the bat I'm just thinking as a regular 'user' here so no knowledge of world wide law is claimed.

I think it's fair enough to say that most people who post articles on forums or upload photographs or images assume that if the piece in questions is original to them, that they own the copyright to that piece and not to the person who owns the forum on which they posted it. My own take on that is if you assume the guy who owns the forums has copyright by virtue of owning the mechanism by which you post i.e. the forum, you might as well say that the web host trumps that because they own the hard drive on which the data is held.

Obviously if your ToS clearly states that users upload data and waive their rights to onership, that is a different matter but such a clause should be clearly communicated to users unless you want to be ostracised by the online community at large.

The question of templates, i think you'd really have to look at the ToS attached to the downloads, paid or free. They will usually give you a clear idea of what you can and cannot do with them. Likewise, using the articles from a paid for service and serving them up in your own paid for service is probably breaching the ToS of the original site, so why ask the question? most of these questions seems based on common sense, you probably know that you shouldn't do it but instead appear to be asking for a 'loophole' to allow you to do it anyway, or are these really all just questions asked by others which you thought you'd ask here?

My whole point of asking here was to get other peoples input on this for the law does not seem to be clearly written... that I can find. The questions I throw out there are things commonly seen done or have read about on forums like this one, people telling others to do. I'm not an expert on law or copyright so to be honest I do not know the answer, but like you I try and use common sense to figure it out. The template one I threw out there because I also have templates out there that I made. They are out there for people to use freely as long as they keep the link at the bottom. But once they change the header, color, fonts, images etc it is hard to tell if it is mine or not. People do this so they can remove the link and also so it no longer gives them a template look and so also their site does not look like everyone else's that uses that template. People also use templates to save on time as some of the layout work has been done. How much of it do they have to change before I no longer have a leg to stand on? I read a while back that one can buy a product, like a grill lets say. And if I change the grill by 20% I can put my name on it can sell it as mine. Does this apply to the internet? To be honest I do not know and I cannot find the answer. As far as articles, many people do change the wording of the article so it does not trigger a duplicate content issue. But they still give the credit for the article to the original author. Although this is common place, if the author had an issue with it, can he or she do anything? How many times have you been on a site and the layout was the same or the header image was made by taking parts of different images and putting them into one image and the person calling it theirs? To me that is like taking the Mona Lisa and putting her into the last supper and calling it the final dinner and taking all credit for it. This is also common place. But where does it stand when it comes to law? A lot of people go on Google images and take bits and pieces, like the background from one image, a building from another and put a colored hue over it and call it theirs. This is seen everyday. But I cannot argue with someone that it is wrong if I cannot prove it. And with MySpace, I have not read their ToS, and this is just an example. Lets say my MySpace site has pretty good PR and I paid somebody to build a template for that site. Can I sell that site? Can I sell the template? People sell links in sig files on forums. Can I sell my account? I have actually been asked if I wanted to sell an account on a forum. To be honest I never gave it a thought until then. I did not sell it, but I am sure there are people out there that have. There is a fine line between what is seen everyday as commonplace and common sense. Usually what is actual law does not follow either one of them. My whole point was a debate of commonly seen and done things. Are they breaking the law? To be honest, I do not know and I cannot find the answer written anywhere.

Under U.S. Copyright Law, the basic principal is that the original creator of the work owns all rights, unless the work was a "work for hire;" this can be summarized as meaning that he who paid for the work's creation owns the rights to it. Additionally, incidental "fair use" is not deemed to be an infringement on such rights.

Only the original owner has the right to transfer any or all rights to the work, in any manner that he sees fit. That having been said, it must be recognized that an owner may indeed unintentionally, but nonetheless enforceably, assign such rights without being aware of it, owing to his having agreed to a Contract of Adhesion, such as a ToS Agreement, which he has failed to read and given careful due consideration to before accepting such.

Ultimately, all U.S. Copyright disputes not involving the originality of the work itself center around the issues of "fair use," "work for hire" or "assignment."

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

I agree with deepsand. Unless you have a written contract that extends specific rights to you, it is best to assume that you may not publish it, post it, claim it as your own, and especially not charge money for it if you didn't write it -- IN FULL -- FROM SCRATCH.

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Ron http://www.chalicemedia.com Distributed Creative Content Architecture

deepsand I agree. I do not know what the out come of the lawsuits were that were filed about selling items obtained in a game, but would that verdict also affect issues like forums? Who owns my account or yours? Also in reading between the lines of your post, if a person takes the background from one image and a building from another and puts them together to make a new image they are in fact violating copyright laws? Or by doing so did they change the image enough that it is legal?

Assuming that you refer to the sale of physical items, the answer would be no. The distinction is one of tangible vs intangible goods.
Can you put "account," as here used, in context?
Copyright protects, not an idea or concept, but the expression of such. So, in the instance cited, the new work is a different expression. However, since it's components are not wholly original, but derived from the works of others, it is deemed to be a derivative work.

For derivative works, one must examine what, if any, copyright protection is presently enjoyed by the original works involved in order to determine whether or not any infringement accrues, or if the derivative itself might be copyrightable. Perhaps Derivative work - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia will here serve better than my own words.

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

I was referring to an account, like your account here on WPW. Your account did not exist until you created it. Are you the owner of the account? Are you able to sell it? I am only using this as an example and not as a suggestion / implication of selling it. I have been approached about selling it, but I chose not to. I do not wish to sell my account here, but to an SEO company, what would you say Incredihelp's ( I am just pulling a well respected name out of the air ) account be worth? He has excellent reputation, his comments are correct, to the point, not misleading. If someone was actually able to buy his account, they could pretend that they are him. This would help them add credibility to their SEO company. Again I am NOT suggesting or anything of the sort. But I am asking is selling the account different from selling sig file links? Who owns the account?


I have seen somebody on here asking for help and someone else came in, and out of kindness, created an image. But the image that was created was taken from bits and pieces of other images that could easily be found in Google images. The final product looked good. I am not going to name names nor am I going to point fingers. That is not the purpose of this. The only reason I am bringing this up is because this seems to have become a common practice. I do not know if one changes the work enough, can they call it theirs?

One thing I would like to touch back on is the templates, mainly because this directly affects me. Yes my templates are available to be downloaded and used for free. Even if they weren't, it is still possible for people to steal your entire site. If the person who stole the site or downloaded the template changes the colors, fonts, links, etc to meet their page, but keeps the layout the same, can they call it a new design, and it legally be their work? And if so, how much of it would they have to change? Like I said earlier, I read a while ago that they would have to change it 20%. For the life of me though, I cannot find anything that states this.

I am not just talking copyright laws. I am talking about virtual property in general and who actually owns virtual property.

I do want to thank you for your patience. Some of these questions I am asking as they directly affect me. Others I am asking because I have seen it done repetitively.

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The Sensual Touch Lingerie | High Heels | High Heel Blog

I might be off here, but it sounds like you are talking about who owns a web presence(virtual property). This would be the owner of the Domain Name that provides access to the content(very real physical property) through said Domain. Whoever created the phrase (virtual property) has confused many people in my opinion. Original content found on a web presense ie.. text, images, coding is all protected by copyright laws to similar degrees. Unless you are using someones background images or word content as well, the mark up code for the layout is fair game in my opinion, unless it is part of a patented application or program. Thats like saying that someone can't build a 3 story building with an elevator and 8 doors because thats how I built mine first. Myself, I prefer to design my own layouts as I go that compliment the original content on each site. Thats my take

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James Allen

Sorry for the delay in responding to this. As of lately I have been totally swamped and have very little time.

I have to disagree with this statement for many reasons. The first reason would have to be a domain name is virtual property and is not real physical property. Real physical property would be the servers on which that domain name resides on. The servers that your domain name resides on does not own the content that is on their servers, but falls under roughly the same guidelines as if you were renting a house. You do not own the house, like you do not own the servers, but you do own what you bring into that house. Another reason I have to disagree is due to you cannot sell or be taxed on items you do not own. So let's go back to the online games for a second, as they are the fuel for this issue. Would you agree if we both play the same online game and I sell you a rare item that I found in that game, and you pay me in real world money that 1 - I can do this because it is my item, 2 - since I just made real world money off of a virtual item that I should be taxed on that real world money? Most people would agree to this. But if I sell you that same item and you pay me in virtual gold coins should I still be taxed real money on that sale? Most people would say you are out of your mind. The issue falls here. If your virtual property has real world value, it can be taxed and fought for in courts. Which brings me to this whole discussion of what do people actually own. A lot of people are not aware of the virtual economy that is in the games and on other virtual properties today. Here is a quote from an article that explains the issue of what is going on:


Interesting huh? Now let's put this into a different perspective. Many people on this forum and others run SEO and web design companies. They use forums for many reasons which I am not going to get into. But let's say on a particular forum you have links in your sig file to your site. You also have a good reputation and following on the forum. All of a sudden that forum account that did not exist before you created it has real world value. Now let's say a moderator of that forum, or admin for that matter, suspends your account or removes your sig file links for reasons other than violating the ToS. Maybe they did it as a joke or maybe they do not like you. You can actually sue the moderator or admin for punitive damages because your account has real world value to your business. Now how is that possible if you do not own the account? Here are a few articles that are interesting reading and kind of explain what started this whole snowball.


http://news.cnet.com/2100-1043_3-6140298.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-5748748-7.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6870901/
http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztech/virtual-world-tax-man-cometh/2006/10/30/1162056925483.html

Now let me throw something else into the mix. If the IRS can tax you on the sale of a virtual item, even though it was never turned into real world money, but the virtual item has real world value. Your account on forums also has real world value...what's stopping them from placing a tax on it as well?

So again I am asking do we actually own these accounts? They did not exist until we made them, making us the original creator of our account. This is the same as the virtual items in the game, although we did not create them. We only found them. We have the right to sell them and own them and possibly be taxed on them. You cannot be taxed on something you do not own. If you do not own the account, how could the one lawsuit take place where the person sued the web developer because their account got hacked and virtual items got stolen if the items or the account did not belong to them in the first place?

This may sound off the wall, and this may sound extreme, but this is happening in China, Sweden and is being strongly looked upon here in the US.

VIRTUAL defined as:
adj
1. being something in practice: being something in effect even if not in reality or not conforming to the generally accepted definition of the term
2. physics hypothetical: used to describe a particle whose existence is suggested to explain observed phenomena but is not proven or directly observable
3. computing generated by computer: simulated by a computer for reasons of economics, convenience, or performance
4. computing relating to data storage management technique: used to describe a technique of moving data between storage areas or media to create the impression that a computer has a storage capacity greater than it actually has


I believe that the term "virtual property" was created in the infancy of the internet for the lack of a better term to describe online properties to multitudes of basicly computer illiterate consumers.

If a domain name is not real physical property, then why can I control it? I choose the server that the Domain name is hosted on, if I like I can host the domain on my own computer(server). The offered data(content), which is stored on a hard drive and can also be my own hard drive, is also my real property as I create and control it as well.
When I register a Domain name I must first create it. Once created I register it in my name, I am considered to be the creator and owner of said Domain name until I sell the rights of the domain. All money earned from the sale of the domain is taxable income where I live.

__________________
James Allen

There is here nothing owned by any party.

Your account is not property, but, in the absence of a contractual agreement to the contrary, a privilege, one that is extended to you, and continues at the pleasure of, WPW. The only thing that you have to offer another is the knowledge of your USRID/PSWD combination, the likes of which can be altered or revoked at any time by WPW. WPW could, should it so desire, even revoke your use of a give USRID and transfer it to another.

See my previous reference to "derivative works," at Virtual Property Laws. .

There is no such thing as Law that applies to "property in general;" different kinds of property require that they be addressed by different Law. And, much of what you here address is, as noted, in fact covered by Copyright Law.

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

At Law, real property refers to land (hence the name real estate,) not whether a thing is a physical entity; all else is known as personal property.

Personal property can be either tangible or intangible; tangible property is that which is corporeal, i.e. has physical substance and can be felt or touched. That which is here referred to as "virtual property" is intangible, as are stocks, bonds, bank notes, trade secrets, patents, copyrights and trademarks, all manner of financial accounts, goodwill, contracts, etc..

Both the Domain Name and the referenced content are intangible personal property; only the server is tangible (personal) property.

The owners of each of these 3 properties bear no necessary relationship to one another.

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

"Virtual property" is simply intangible personal property.

See Virtual Property Laws. re. definitions of "real" vs "personal," and "tangible" vs "intangible" properties.

There is no legal presumption that the content is owned by the owner of the storage medium (media.)

The Domain Name and the Content that may be associated with said DN are legally 2 entirely different entities.

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

Intangible defined:

in·tan·gi·ble [in tánjəb’l]
adj
1. nonmaterial: without material qualities, and so not able to be touched or seen
2. hard to describe: difficult to define or describe clearly, but nonetheless perceived

Corpreal defined:

cor·po·re·al [kawr páwree əl]
adj
1. concerning the physical body: relating to or involving the physical body rather than the mind or spirit
2. material: material or physical rather than spiritual

__________________
James Allen

1. I can see my websites and I assure you they are not of a spiritual entity.

2. I did not imply that a Domain Name and the Content that may be associated with said DN are the same entity.

__________________
James Allen

Nonetheless, at Law, they are intangibles, as they lack physical substance and cannot be touched.

The point was that they are different entities, and thus subject to potentially different ownerships.

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com

If clarity exists, from whence an uncertainty sufficient for debate?

__________________
The Penn State Ticket Man http://www.pennstateticketman.com
http://www.happyvalleytickets.com http://www.hounddogtours.com