Hello WebProWorld Gurus,

I've got a contract negotiation issue and would love your advice.

Our company's standard web development contract states that the client maintains rights to the text and content and we maintain the copyright of the design.

This is for two reasons.

1.) The client doesn't normally have the legal or financial resources to handle a copyright battle.

2.) We don't want another design firm altering our design after we release it.

Right now, we've got a client who will not sign the contract until we change the verbiage and give her full copyright of the design as well.

In general, we're pretty flexible, but this client is...well, let's just say she's not very pleasant. So our charity levels are running low.

A partner designer at another firm recommended granting her demand, but charging extra for the design copyright. Is that normal? And if so what is a normal charge for such a thing?

Any advice would be MOST appreciated!

Kelli

Perhaps a compromise position might be in order, ie. the contract can state that the design is co-authored by both parties? ie. the design will not be duplicated for your other clients, but if duplicated both parties would have the right to enforce the copyright.

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A long history of experience with the rare "unpleasant" demanding and/or cheap client suggests IMO that the best advice is to verify this is not a misunderstanding, and if it is not, seriously consider walking from the project.

This is not entirely true if they merely want PSD originals. If that's the case, quite a few clients request these.

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Denver SEO, Blog, and Web Design Consultants

Charging extra for the outright transfer of the copyright is normal. We typically increase the overall price by about 50%; which usually calms this issue right down.

Up until now, we've always just given all rights to the client. Of course, we've always added that into the cost as well. It's saved us a lot of hassle.

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I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it.
Daffodil Valley Times, Tacoma Web Designers, $3.99 Web Hosting

A Client wanting exclusive rights to a design is understandable. I agree with the others, just charge more, and then have them sign an agreement that they will not disseminate the design to anyone else.

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Web Geek http://www.sjvwd.com
http://www.arthurspools.com

If you are afraid to walk from the contract then all of the power remains with the client. The client has a real need for the help or they wouldn't have hired you in the first place which really places the power in your hands. Most people fail to realize this and out of fear of losing the contract they cave in to demands that they might not normally give in to. Take back the power that was rightfully yours and then sell the design to their competitor.

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You can lead a blonde to reason but you can't make her think!

How much did this person put into the design? If nothing then it is like the author of a book to claim copyright over the cover art as well as the text.

From your clients point of view however, if you own the copyright to his/her sites look, what's stopping you selling it to a competitor/copy-cat?

Edit: So above commenters are giving good advice imo.

I'm with Chiron on walking away, Big Juice on not giving away your power, and epep on adding 50% for transfer of rights. I maintain a very strict policy of retaining my right to make changes to graphics and asking the client not to make or allow others to make changes. It's the only way I can protect my portfolio, plus it's in the client's best interest that he or she not turn the site into a trainwreck.

By the way, a direct competitor tries to use my copyright policy to sell against me, so when I'm talking with prospects, I'm always careful to explain that one reason I retain rights is so that I can quickly jump on copyright violations. I describe the time when that direct competitor put 15 of my real estate site designs on her own site, fraudulently claiming that they were her own design work. Using the DCMA takedown provisions, I was able to get my work removed from her site in about two weeks. I ask them to imagine how long it would have taken me to get 15 different real estate agents to file cease and desist orders and they usually get my rationale, including the point that my competitor is very sleazy.

As far as R2D2's concerns, I specify in my contract that my designs are licensed to my clients for their exclusive use.

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Suzanne Stephens, Custom Design for Point2 Real Estate Web Sites
http://www.SuzStephens.com

Sorry chaps but i fail to see how a designer can control full rights when the design was to a very specific design brief in order to meet a commercial goal - laid out by the client. You make it sound as if the design was some sort of divine inspiration. It is not, its just you getting paid for a job.
And as for "it's in the client's best interest that he or she not turn the site into a trainwreck", then that just smacks of arrogance. Why does a graphic designer know more than a business owner?

Thanks all for your very helpful insights.

I posted this same question on another forum, and am being absolutely SHREDDED over there for being self serving and unprofessional.

Contract Conflict! Now What? - SitePoint Forums

This contract issue really was an honest question, and it's never been our company's intention to be self-serving in any way.

But now I'm even more uncertain how to proceed.

and to iandoc who wrote: "And as for "it's in the client's best interest that he or she not turn the site into a trainwreck", then that just smacks of arrogance. Why does a graphic designer know more than a business owner?"

That does not smack of arrogance. That is the voice of hard experience. Believe me, when it comes to a graphic design project, the designer does know more than the average business owner. I've turned over enough designs to clients -- which were then utterly destroyed by these "knowledgeable" individuals-- to know.

I wouldn't buy from you if that was a condition of the contract, you can transfer copyright based on FULL payment by the client. If I pay for design, it is my design.

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g
take a free health assessment HealthStatus.com

Charge extra. For exclusive rights over anything on the web (pics, vids, content, etc.) you always pay more. Your client knows this, if she actually knows just a bit about how things work online.

I don't understand the problem. If you design something unique for that client, it should belong to the client. Are you going to sell it to someone else? If so, you are not selling them something that you intend to remain unique. If it's not unique, or not intended to be, the price should be less - not more.

One of my sons painted the murals for the Nashville Zoo. Should he try to claim ownership? He designed and built the set for the television program of Phil Fulmer, football coach at UT. He did sets for Dollywood. He creates and sells serious art. He has never claimed ownership. He is creative; moreso than most web site designers.

If a decorator 'does' my living room, does she have any ownership rights to my living room?

I was an assembler language programmer on the big iron. I never took more than 3 weeks to write any program. I wrote a book. Counting the research and writing it took 16 years. Writing a serious book is far more difficult than writing most programs. I sell the trade book version for $18. Yet people want to sell programs for hundreds or thousands. Programmers get their shorts in a wad about copyright protection while I see the government (via the library) putting Xerox machines at the end of the bookshelf so people can make copies of my work (without compensation).

Even having been a programmer, I see most programmers hiding behind the copyright law while they whine and cry. Many of these very same programmers have a few songs on their mp3 players that they didn't pay for.

Charge a reasonable fee for your work. Then you don't have to worry about charging extra if you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm guessing that I'm no longer the most popular poster on this board.

So basically...

You want people to pay you to build your own websites...

It sounds to me like she is your first client with any common sense...

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Search Engine Optimization - SEO | SEO Tools

I've read all of the posts, and all I can contribute is how I handle it. I've always been of the opinion that once a site is fully paid for, it belongs to the client, lock stock and code-filled barrel.

An interior decorator may make your home beautiful, but in the end it's still YOUR home. The designer may and should retain the right to display photos/images of the finished product as an example of their work... and this is beneficial to client and designer.

I've worked on sites that were designed by other designers, and managed to preserve most (if not all) of the original design in the process. I've also had clients who wanted to update their sites themselves, and ended up with the aforementioned 'trainwreck' and most eventually came back to me to 'fix it' for them... (hourly charges apply).

The point being, that once the contract is completed, your client walks out of the store with their purchase, and you move on to the next client. I am for retaining ownership until the final bill is paid, and stipulate in my general contact that until the final bill is paid, my company retains ownership. This gives the client the freedom to either return to you for updates and additions, or go to another company... it's their choice, part of operating in a free marketplace.

As regards 'walking away' from a contract - I've done this, mostly in cases where the client has transformed their original project into something completely different, or changed their goals repeatedly through the process - I call this a "moving target of satisfaction", or has proved so difficult to work with, I just threw my hands up and told them to go someplace else.

One thing I DO insist on is a deposit of 50% of the estimated cost before any work begins. If the contract is abandoned, midstream, I deduct the hours spent from the deposit, or submit an additional billing for any hours OVER the initial deposit. This policy is also spelled out in my contract. Once a client has invested a sizeable chunk of cash on the project, they are usually more willing to negotiate to completion. If they are not willing to negotiate, at least you are paid for the work you did...

Good luck,
Puamana

I have been on both sides of this issue and I came to the conclusion that the customer should get everything upon full payment. It is THEIR website, not yours. The ONLY stipulation I ever make now is that they can not give or sell my work to somebody else without my name appearing on it somewhere.

If you insist that you maintain copyright for the design it is like a car company saying you own the car but can not change the look or color or anything else on it because they hold the copyright for the design. Hey, it's MY car. If I want it to look like a hippie mobile, it is of no concern to the car maker.

Same with websites. If I pay for the design, it is mine to mess up any way I want.

From the other side, I've made a LOT of money from people who have trashed their site with low ball bidders and had to come to me to get it fixed.

To say that you charge MORE for the copyright is bogus. You are being paid to produce something FOR the customer. It isn't like you can go in later and take it back saying you are rescinding their right to use it.

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Freelancers Gone Wild | Take your advertising to the next level | BLASTOFF! To make money and save money

We own and retain ALL rights to whatever work we pay for. If I was the CLIENT I would walk away from the deal just for you trying to pull this stunt.

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Gary
www.pilotjourney.com

Not the same thing, if webdesign is art just as painting, then selling the copyright to a sites design would be similar to a painter selling all rights to his painting at the gallery.

The reply I was considering before I read this was very brutal compared to this one. But... This one is so honest and true, that I can't stop giggling.

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James Allen

And I would like to add something, without seeming to push the product, that everyone needs legal advice on these things. Some people can afford lawyers at mega bucks per hour but for us small freelancers I highly recommend you go get PrePaid Legal.

PPL has helped me go after deadbeat clients, reviewed contracts before I sign them, even helped me write a boiler plate contract for my customers to sign. All for 1 low monthly fee. Now they are helping me fight the IRS.

This is something I tell ALL freelancers or small business owners, get PrePaid Legal. You will not regret it.

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Freelancers Gone Wild | Take your advertising to the next level | BLASTOFF! To make money and save money

In the US, the "Works for Hire" copyright law says this: "Although the general rule is that the person who creates a work is the author of that work, there is an exception to that principle: the copyright law defines a category of works called 'works made for hire' If a work is “made for hire,” the employer, and not the employee, is considered the author. The employer may be a firm, an organization, or an individual." This also applies is to commissioned work from 3rd parties. So, you pay for it - you own it under the US copyright law.

Contracts are meant to be written and rewritten. Think on how much potential revenue (do you host?) could be lost over the course of let's say 3 years.

Then how much revenue could be lost by word of mouth. Rule of thumb is that if you make her irate then she will tell 10 people, make her happy and she will tell 5.

Come to a happy medium and then write the contract out. If she will not come to some happy point then maybe it would be better to back out.

Usually I give full rights to the client but have a stipulation that I can use code at my will. For content my clients will pay extra and own the content as well (let's be honest do we really use duplicate content or do we reuse code?) that is where I decided to draw a line and for the most part all is happy.

Code is totally different from design. Afterall you can use code on your site that you do not own. But for the most part, the code is such that it would be impossible to tell if somebody really stole it or not. It is when you have a unique tool or such that you need to copyright it and then the customer knows they are paying for the use of it and not for the tool itself.

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Freelancers Gone Wild | Take your advertising to the next level | BLASTOFF! To make money and save money

Its not normal practice to retain copyright in a design you create for somebody else. As for not wanting "somebody else to change your design" - well if you look after the client properly, they probably won't go anywhere else - why would they?

We always transfer copyright to our clients - but only when all fees relating to origination and production are paid in full.

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Clarrie
www.dvisions.co.uk - lose the camouflage and stand out...

I work as a web consultant and am often in the middle between client and the developer on copyright issues.

I recently posted this on another forum:
Web Design/development - Copyright And Ownership Issues - High Rankings Search Engine Optimization Forum

As I think more about this from this discussion, I think it should be part of the upfront contract discussion. The client is often surprised that they are paying for something and don't get it all. The developer wants copyright because they created it. The work-made-for-hire part of the US Copyright Act may not even apply to web design and development.

Also, there should be a distinction made between design and code.

In a recent project, we came to the compromise that the client gets the copyright to the design and a license to use the code on this site only, and the developer maintained the IP rights and copyrights to the code.

Good topic and a gray area it seems to me...

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Larry Chrzan
www.BlueHorseradish.com: Online Optimization - Web that Works!

When Henry Ford commissioned the V8 engine be designed and built... who held the copyright?
When Bill Gates commissioned the design and production of Microsoft Windows... Who held the copyright?

Those who PAID THE MONEY of course...

When an artist sells his painting... Does the artist retain the copyright...?

The business model that You are talking about is what is commonly known as a SCAM.

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Search Engine Optimization - SEO | SEO Tools

Would you tell us what rights an artist retains after a gallery sale? My 40-year old son is a fulltime artist. I'm not aware that he retains any rights after the sale.

I work with various artists, and, according to my understanding there is the artwork the artist does on their own and there is commissioned art. If I commission an artist I expect to pay more because I keep the rights. However, if I buy an original, that does not give me permission to publish it in a book or sell prints. However, if I want to draw mustaches on the characters in a painting I have purchased, I am fully within my rights to do so. In either case, both purchasers and artists know ahead of time which type of purchase it is.

Wouldn't this principle appy to web development? As long as both the designer and the client understand the deal ahead of time, there shouldn't be a problem.

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Putting the world of computers into plain English.
http://thecomputergal.com

Wow! A lot of people weighing in on this one.

If you refer to the Graphic Artist's Guild Pricing and Ethical Guide you will see that it is standard to charge extra for release of copyright for design. And it's not usually inexpensive.

There is information in the guide on a wide variety of subject areas relating to pricing and copyright licenses for all manner of design work. Well worth the investment if for no other reason than to have some guidance on handling these sorts of situations.

Good luck!

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Graphic & Web Design
www.jannmirch.com

Okay, I'm not a designer, I'm an SEO geek during the day and an artist at night.

For an artist, after a work is sold there is no control over whether a person alters that work. However, the artist does retain all rights to reproduction of any work they sell, even commissioned work. Reproduction rights can be sold separately.

Once you pay to have someone build you a website, you own EVERYTHING. Code, copyright, images whatever.

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KBK Marketing | Search Marketing Blog | Cheap Web Hosting

My understanding is that it takes explict language in the contract with an independent contractor relationship for the work to fall under work for hire provisions.

For a developer, the main stumbling block to this that I have seen as a buyer is that a work for hire would allow me to duplicate the design and resell it to many others. Many developers have a problem with that and as a buyer I understand that.

Any additional restrictions, I have a problem with.

NO Way would I sign a contract that interfered with my right to hire a third party to maintain or alter a design. Just imagine, a year after a major site development contract is completed I want to update the site header or add a feature. The original design company, would have me hostage. I need it in a couple of weeks, the company " sorry we have a 3 month backlog we will get to in 12 weeks or you can always have someone else design you a new site from scratch."

Or more common the designer I worked with has left the company, the company as taken a new direction in design that I don't like. My tough luck, do it their way or start over.

The one thing I know about North American copyright laws is that if you are hired to do a job and paid to do that job, the one paying you owns the rights to it...

That's the basics anyway..

The way it's been explained to me by lawyers etc is that they own rights to the site as a whole. The parts that make that up you may own the rights to, especially if you're using say scripts, graphics etc. that you have created for use in multiple sites.

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Ron Boyd
website consulting (design, optimization, marketing) :: Follow Me: @orionsweb

My webgroup engagement letter said the same thing. I objected to this vehemently. I have no idea as to how a web designer thinks that they should be paid twice for the same project. I paid an hourly rate for the logo design along with an hourly rate for the website. A client would be CRAZY to sign an agreement like this........and this comes from a client who is NOT difficult to get along with and who timely pays there bills.

If you do not believe me, go talk to your attorney. I did. He would no more let me sign that agreement with the logo copyright belonging to the webgroup than he would advise me to jump off a bridge. While we are on this point, if you are a customer hiring a web group, PLEASE have your engagement letter reviewed by an attorney. You will NEVER sign an agreement that has so much exposure as the website engagement letter. I repeat, the engagement letter seems so elementary.....trust me their are more issues in it than you can imagine.

For any of you customers who cannot get out of this hood wink, I suggest you sign up for Guru.Com and hire one of the ten thousand logo developers who will provide a low cost logo to you and that way you can not upset your web group and laugh all the way to the bank.

Good Luck!!

Copyright is a personal asset, automatically given to the creator by the government of the country. Writing a book, writing the source code same thing.

I insist that copyright is transferred upon payment of money. Money goes down to contractor, copyright comes up to paying company. It is Intellectual Property -IP, the basis of the worth of the company. The company must have full control over its IP. as with any other assets. It may dispose of these assets to another company.

The question of how much for the IP? I might contract your company to design my website if your design skills match my vision. I might hire someone else. Having bought the website I could change it. It may not look so good in purple and yellow but not your problem. Do you quote one price to retain copyright and later reuse (selling to their competition) it that is fine. I would advise the company commissioning you to walk away.

Do you quote a price and hand over IP? That is up to you.

If you can find enough clients for the first situation, continue but if and when as you have found a client is prepared to walk away over ownership of IP beprepared for many more.

Put me down on Iandoc and nashville side, it might be simple to vote with a diggit style system

Good debate, can someone tally the score?

So... Let's see if I've got this straight...

I PAY YOU $?,000 to BUILD You a website. When you have built YOUR website you then LEND it to me (or if hosting is involved- LEASE it to me) for an indefinite period of time. If my competition comes to you (through the obvious link that you have on the bottom of Your page which I am borrowing) and asks for a website just like mine you then take YOUR template which I PAID FOR and LEND it to them for $?,000.

The only way that you can have claim to I.P. (copyright is slightly different) is if the idea was not public knowledge at the time of application for a provisional patent (or actual patent). I don't see what you would have intellectual property rights to in a "standard web development contract".

The only way you can have copyright is if you are the one who has final say in product development (i.e. nobody is paying you to do the job). What exactly do you have copyright on...??? You can NOT own copyright on a commissioned work. Obviously to claim copyright or I.P. rights to a design your client must have no input into the project whatsoever. The minute your client says "I don't like that there" and you change it to accommodate them, you are acknowledging that the copyright is not yours but your clients.

I would really like to know exactly what it is that you THINK you have copyright to...

It would be very interesting to watch you try to defend your "copyright" in a court of law. I think you would find yourself in a very difficult position.

If you want to maintain copyright, perhaps you would be better off selling "out of the box" website templates that are designed and funded by your company (or yourself) rather than trying to get others to pay you to amass your copyrighted material at their expense and thus avoiding the arguments and disputations that are bound to arise with such an arrangement.

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Search Engine Optimization - SEO | SEO Tools

I love companies that try and keep their clients property. Can you imagine yourself buying anything and some one tells you that you don't own it or that they are going to put an advertisement on your product? That is very old school and as long as companies try and fence in customers instead of providing VALUE beyond building a website my company is going to continue to do very well against them. I tell my clients that it's stupid to pay for a website that doesn't belong to them, and it is.

Now if you want to rent your website and the client can walk away once they are done with it, fine. Then you have to continue to provide VALUE to your client long after the website is up if you intend to keep them paying. Personally, I feel really bad for companies that don't understand the web or how it works and when "professionals" take advantage of their clients ignorance they not only loose their clients but in the long run they loose their reputation for honestly.

I don't mind having a little credit going to a company at the bottom of each page identifying the builder or the fact that you want to keep the website that you just sold. But it needs to be spelled out in bold lettering and verbally expressed or you can consider your business practice as deceptive. Most everyone believes that when they buy something they own it unless it is very obviously stated to them like buying a car where the manufacturer’s logo is everywhere.

Are we talking about copyright or ownership? I think some people are a bit confused.

A design firm builds and develops a website for a paying client. The client owns copyright to the entire completed website as a whole. Otherwise how else are they going to brand themselves with the design?

Ok, now they want business cards to match... to help grow their company brand and keep continuity. Do they have the right to take elements from the website and have them printed on the business cards??? OF COURSE they do.

Do they have the right to demand the PSD, AI or EPS files to make this easy? NO.

They own the copyright to the final design. They can have all the "final files" they want to use. Or take a screenshot and hang it over their fireplace mantle in their living room if they want. Make printed copies and mail them to the world... they can edit the final files... they can even hire other people to work on the website. They can change their business name and/or address and update these in the design... you see where I am going here.

The design firm has ownership of the working files (ie, PSD, AI, etc). Need something changed. Pay the design firm $X to change it and have it match or hire someone else and pay $X+ and hope it looks like it matches the site.

If they want a copy of the working files you own, that's when you charge more. Everything else they are free to do with as they wish.

This is one of many reasons that you don't use the client's live site as an item in your portfolio.
1. Anyone who does that must not build on any sort of CMS... and
2. must have great faith in the clients ability to run a business and keep from closing shop.

Once I turn over a site to a client I know they are going to jack something up. That's just the business. Either they pay me to fix it, or they leave it that way because "they want it that way" and they do not see it as "jacked up".

I like to think of it this way:
• I am an artist. I use art supplies to get the job done. At work my "paint brush" is mostly photoshop.

• The company I work for sells art (websites) and uses supplies to get the job done. I am their "paint brush". The paint brush does not own the work, the person using the paint brush does. In this case that "person" is the company work for.

• The client feels like an artist. They use art supplies to get the job done. Thier "paint brush" is the company I work for.

The client hires the company, the company hires me, I produce the work in photoshop, which is copyright adobe. Who owns the copyright to work? Not adobe, they are just a tool to get the job done. Not me, I was paid to do the work. Not company I work for, they were also paid to get the job done... That leaves only one person:

The client, they shelled out the cash to make their idea become a reality because they did not know how to do it themselves. (If they did, I'd be out of a job)

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The proceeding comment was great except you are not dealing with the law. The law would say that the logo belongs to the developer.

Per my comment above, I agree with you 100%....but the problem is that you are using way too much common sense.

ANY customer who lets the developer own the logo or who does not have an attorney review their engagement letter is a down right FOOL.

Any web developer who maintains the ownership of the logo is a scam artist.

Any customer who agrees to pay more than a very nominal amount to own the copyright is a damn FOOL, too.

Once again, logo designers are a dime a dozen....check out Guru.Com

How is this discussion any different that that of a professional photographer? Every photog I've ever known has insisted on keeping copyright to their pictures, even if the client wants the pictures taken in a certain locale or in a specific manner. I've known at least two different photogs who have sued clients for copyright violation when the client used their own wedding pictures in a business setting. Others, recognizing the copyright situation, came to agreements with the photog, monetary or otherwise, to avoid the issue. I know that, when the lady who took my wedding pics retired, she sent every client she could find their negatives, which she had retained as part of her copyright. Why would a web design be any different?

Lyle Knox
FeelGoodWatches.com

My company recently went through a similar issue, where as part of our site redesign, we needed to have the copyright to our site so that we could make quick changes and evolve the site as needed without having to rehire the design company and negotiate back and forth on changes (a process that can take months) when we could make changes internally in hours.

As part of the process of finding a developer, we spoke with over a dozen design firms. Most were local companies that built web sites for other local companies. Very nice websites, yes, but they broke into two groups. Either they retained the copyright in all cases, or they sold the copyright for an increased fee.

We also spoke with a few national level design firms, which do large scale projects (ie coke.com, disney.com, barnes and noble.com, etc) they all had the same policy - when the client pays the last cent for the project, the copyright to the site becomes the property of the client. However, there is a restriction on the resale of the site. The client is not allowed to resell the site, and the design as delivered can be used in the portfolio of the designer.

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The best way to learn anything, is to question everything.

I have to agree here.

I am in a situation were a client has asked me to rebuild a site from scratch because the designer and hosting company are one in the same and the they are essentially asking usary rates to make small changes. And because of supposed "proprietary design" we can not even make the minor modifications ourself on the website.

I hire and do design all the time... The customer needs to pay for the design work and I can then not worry about amortizing it for the future with other clients (because it won't happen anyhow). Now please note I am not talking about propriary software systems I am talkng about a look and feel that has been crafted for that client......

The final question is also... With the customer being such a pain in the rear end, do you really want to be dealing with them in the future when they eneviably leave you for supposedly greener pastures? Or is it your goal eventually to get into a war with them down the line?

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http://lowprice4u.com | http://ArkahdiaArts.com | http://Statues-Columns.com

I agree with the above post. Bad client smells from the beginning. I think she might be a problem, so make sure you really want her as a customer before doing anything. You can not make some people happy, ever....

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about how copyright law works in the U.S.

Basically, if the designer is a bona fide employee of a company (in IRS terms), the employer automatically owns the rights.

If the designer is an independent contractor, the designer automatically owns the rights. If the client wants the rights, they must be signed over to the client in a written contract prior to beginning work. Copyright cannot be claimed retroactively.

Furthermore, under the second scenario, the client does NOT automatically have the right to get a copy of any of the files or anything else. The client is only being licensed the right to use the designer's design. Any other rights must be transferred in a written contract.

If a client hires a design firm to do a web site, and the design firm subcontracts the work, the designer doing the work under subcontracts owns the rights UNLESS those rights have been signed over to either the design firm or the client prior to the onset of work.

The idea that a client company owns any rights because the company paid for the work is totally erroneous.

Choosing to prevent a client from turning a site into a trainwreck is not arrogance. Or if it's arrogance, some of us have certainly owned the right to be somewhat arrogant. My site designs have saved many real estate agents from bankruptcy. Do I take pride in my work? Do I protect it? You're damned right I do. I have a long waiting list for my work and anyone who doesn't like my terms is welcome to go elsewhere. But when I'm on the phone with prospective clients and discussing sites that I've designed, I want to be sure that I'm not going to encounter any "oh my god what have they done?!?!?" surprises.

Also, "rights" are not just one thing; copyright consists of a bundle of rights. The creator initially owns these rights and can choose to transfer any or all of them. One of the rights that can be transferred is the exclusive license to use your designs, which is what all my contracts stipulate.

Any of you who don't understand the concepts I just wrote about are setting yourself up for BIG TIME legal trouble!!!! Here are two excellent resources; you owe it to yourself to read both:

Copyright Office Basics

This is only one of many excellent articles on this site, by one of the best known experts on copyright law and attorney for well-known designers such as Lynda Weinman (Lynda.com) and less-known designers such as myself.

The Fundamental Principle Under United States Copyright Law

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Suzanne Stephens, Custom Design for Point2 Real Estate Web Sites
http://www.SuzStephens.com

There is mass confusion here.

When I build a website for somebody, they get the right to do whatever they want with it EXCEPT sell parts of it for a profit of their own. In other words, if I write a custom shopping cart for them, they can not in turn sell it to others without my permission. I am only selling them the right to use it on their site. They can modify it ON THEIR SITE all they want. But they do not own the program.

Same as the design graphics etc. The client can modify them and use them for their business all they want. But they CAN NOT sell them.

C'mon, I've had to purchase rights to photographs to use on a website. Part of that agreement it is only to be used on MY site.

In return, I can not duplicate the website and sell the design to somebody else. But I can use it in my portfolio.

As far as unique code, I maintain the copyright so I can resell it. The money for code comes from being able to resell it. Ask any programmer, if I write you a custom program that only you can use, it will cost you MAJOR money. But if I write a program that can be sold to many people, it will cost you much less money.

And for me, if I get paid to build something like a shopping cart, I would be foolish to NOT use it for my next customer who wants a shopping cart.

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The only time I've found that design layout type items are not transferred is in the case of people buying template sites that utilize a proprietary CMS. I've had a few customers of century telephone in Louisiana who bought CMS sites that used a stock template with their logo inserted to create their "site". In those cases the design was obviously not so much the customer's.

If I create a site and logo for a company, what kind of ethical position would I be in if I resold their layout, even if I owned it? Not good IMHO. I personally don't care if they sell the design that I made either. My company designs websites, people pay what I believe to be a fair price to be able to do what they want with them.

I'm not an artist, though sometimes I feel like DaVinci when I design. People pay me to do a job. I do it, archive it for the portfolio, and move on. If they change it, I still have an archive showpiece and a satisfied customer who owns what they break.

Mike

Dinghus, you seem to be as confused as many of the other folks. While YOU may feel that your client can do whatever they want with your work, that is not the way U.S. Copyright Law works.

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Suzanne Stephens, Custom Design for Point2 Real Estate Web Sites
http://www.SuzStephens.com

I can understand the customer not wanting to see the design of their website on someone else's site. Every single one of my customers gets the copyright to all of their website, because we design a unique site for each and every one of them. They do not receive the copyrights until they are paid in full.

If you are using templates or your design for this customer is not unique for this customer only or you have already used a similar or like design on another website then you need to explain this to the customer and have them choose a new unique design that they can have the copyright for.
Unique sites always cost more than templatic sites.

I agree. We are hired to do a job. Does a contractor retain rights to a custom-built home? No. Our clients pay us to design their site, not our site, so the copyright should go to them.

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