Commissioning a website without really owning it? - Page 2

ireneherz · #51 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 11:07 AM

I have a clause in all my contracts that gives the client ownership of all the "work", i.e., graphics, text, programs, as soon as they make their final payment. IMHO you'd be foolish to accept anything else.

On the other hand, the contract protects me too, because I had one person who didn't pay me after his initial deposit, so I rescinded my work, as the contract permitted.

It's tough to deal with strangers. Contracts help.

For more, see http://havingmyownwebsite.net/sitedeveloper.aspx

nadeemansary · #52 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 12:13 PM

We used the services of a web design/development company who eventually managed most of our sites. The service was great and was also good value for money (at the time). They suggested that if we had a dedicated server we would save a lot on hosting as we had so many sites. As we didn't know much about the whole server business, we asked them to go ahead and get one. They set everything up and we sent the payment. After a couple of years things changed. They started demanding more money and negotiations fell through. When we asked them for FTP access to the files, yeah, we did get all the files but they were coded.
To cut a long story short, we ended up losing ALL the sites and I had to get everything done in-house, under my supervision to this day.
Once bitten twice shy...
No offence to developers & designers, but guys thanls but no thanks...

nadeemansary · #53 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 12:15 PM

Forgot to mention that although we had all sorts of airtight contracts but as the company was outside of the UK, the authorities couldn't do a thing about it.

joomx · #54 (**permalink**) 05-12-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serrbiz

We recommend that our clients use Joomla, which is an open source CMS that can do pretty much anything from ecommerce to real estate to blogs, etc. This means the client OWNS the software, design, images, etc. Or course, we make it SEO and SMO from the start so there is no retro-fitting later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdstein

Actually, this not true. If you use an open source application, the client does not "own" the application. Yes, the client can use it for at no cost as long as he/she wants and he/she can take it to another host, but he/she still has to abide by the terms of the open source license.

If the client truly "owned" the open source code, then the client could sell it and file trademark violation lawsuits against all other users.

You're both not true.
OpenSource is owned be the person/company who made the software or hold the copyrights.

One 'good' thing with OS is: it is free (the software but not the rights and services around).
Another is: if you (the developer) code an add.on (or something like) or change it, the intelectual rights are yours.
The final (here specially Joomla!): due that actual GPL license all (!!) commercial services are not allowed, because this GPL (2.0) does not allow commercial sercives which are based on (here Joomla!).

Yes you are right if you say (e.g.): '... with Joomla! you can do almost everything ... ' but not if it should be for a working website.

Unlikely 80% of the Joomla add.ons is bad coded or does not fit the customers need.
Therefore you have do adopt/customize an existing or create a new application.
Now you are the owner of this software piece - or the contract says something other.
The License must be the same (in case of adoption) or could be another (if it should be correct after existing GPL not a commercial one!), but the copyright holder (intelectual rights) are you.

MarcThai · #55 (**permalink**) 05-12-2007, 02:48 AM

It's difficult to understand how unscrupulous some people can be. Get the heck out of there as fast as your feet can take you. These guys are crooks!

I always tell my clients to buy their own domain name. It is the same as the name of a bricks and mortar business. Without it, you can't operate.

Then I help them order their own hosting server. This is the same as renting business premises. Again, they need somewhere to operate out of that they pay for.

As a webmaster, our job is to make the website, not to control our clients' businesses. We should provide the best possible tools to help clients do the business without any worries about whether they may one day lose their ability to operate.

Even if you have signed a contract with these people and paid some money, get out. Find a decent webmaster who will work for you....not the other way around.

Better to lose a little money now and not have to worry about whether these sharks may some day take over your business and leave you penniless.

.

MarcThai · #56 (**permalink**) 05-12-2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ireneherz

I have a clause in all my contracts that gives the client ownership of all the "work", i.e., graphics, text, programs, as soon as they make their final payment. IMHO you'd be foolish to accept anything else.

On the other hand, the contract protects me too, because I had one person who didn't pay me after his initial deposit, so I rescinded my work, as the contract permitted.

It's tough to deal with strangers. Contracts help.

For more, see http://havingmyownwebsite.net/sitedeveloper.aspx

Absolutely! Contracts don't just help. They are essential. Clients appreciate a contract that spells out exactly what to expect. I wouldn't leave home without one.

,

joomx · #57 (**permalink**) 05-12-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcThai

It's difficult to understand how unscrupulous some people can be. Get the heck out of there as fast as your feet can take you. These guys are crooks!

I always tell my clients to buy their own domain name. It is the same as the name of a bricks and mortar business. Without it, you can't operate.

Then I help them order their own hosting server. This is the same as renting business premises. Again, they need somewhere to operate out of that they pay for.

As a webmaster, our job is to make the website, not to control our clients' businesses. We should provide the best possible tools to help clients do the business without any worries about whether they may one day lose their ability to operate.

Even if you have signed a contract with these people and paid some money, get out. Find a decent webmaster who will work for you....not the other way around.

Better to lose a little money now and not have to worry about whether these sharks may some day take over your business and leave you penniless.

.

Fully agree with you, it is not my business to take control over a website, etc.
Without any contract on front of making an codeline, i do not start with the work.
Also without any upfront payment - no start.

About the discussion of domain(name) ownership: in a serious partnership (as i see the relationship with my customers - always!) this should never (!) be a discussion.

And - finally - it must be always be handled diferent: coding, images, text, design, layout.
I do not want to see anything of my work on another site - and this should also be in the mind of my clients.
If the 'job' is finished, i can only maintain and assist, but never own a domain/website.

JohnX · #58 (**permalink**) 05-16-2007, 04:37 PM

Let me just say this - that is crazy!!!

I'll go back and read the responses, but in this internet age you MUST be in complete control of your materials or you are not in control of them at all.

I even tell my clients to register their own names so that they have control and an understanding of how important control is.

Just my nickel -

Martinscholes · #59 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascalpants

Wether the client knows it or not, all of the creative assets, text content, and programming methodologies is owned by the development company.

I have debated this issue for a decade now, and each time it comes up, I give the Wedding Photographer analogy...

When you hire a wedding photographer, you are paying for their services and you pay extra for the prints. The copyright and intellectual property is theirs and this is actually how they make a profit. The reprints from the negatives are the property of the photographer, and anyone who wants duplicates of the photos needs to go through them.

The same thing applies to web sites and other designed property... Unless the web designer signs a contract that says the sources files and code will be turned over to the client along with a transfer of copyright ownership, then the work belongs to the designer.

The only way the work is the property of the client is if the job was a "Work for hire"... such as being a full-time employee or having a designer do a commissioned piece... and their should still be a contract signed in both instances.

rp

I am not sure if the wedding photographer analogy works, here.

Is it not the case that it is closer to the industrial photographer, rather than the wedding photographer?

An industrial photographer is contracted to take a certain number of photographs of -say- a new industrial processing plant. The company who hires his or her services may well specify that the copyright of the images are bought outright, perhaps for an enhanced fee.

websiteproperties · #60 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 12:13 AM

This thread really got a lot of activity! As a website business broker I would recommend against developing a site that you don't completely own both the content and the software and programming - I made the mistake of licensing CRM software from a company called infusion and it has been expensive, time consuming and frustrating - I am going to build out my new crm, database, and ecommerce with solutions that I own outright after either developing or purchasing so when it comes time to sell the website business, there are no encomberances and all the assets are transfered.
so I recommend finding solutions you will own outright - more value to you and any new owner in the future.

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