Email Antiquated?

mtheory · #1 (**permalink**) 12-14-2003, 12:45 PM

Is email becomeing obsolete? With all of the different spam solutions being used, can anyone really be sure that thier email will reach it's intended destination?

Hundreds of spam bloking softwares available
some good some not so good. None definitive.

Is email a malignancy that should be treated with a scalpel not bandaids?

Leisa · #2 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 04:23 AM

I don't know about becoming obsolete but I can tell ya that I finally gave up on spam-blockers. I was missing important messages and so on. My question would be, if not email then what? We certainly wouldn't take backward steps so what do you forsee as the next evolution of Internet communication?

spiderbait · #3 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by computermark

Is email becomeing obsolete?

This is an excellent question, and one that I've been wondering about alot lately. It's true that you can no longer trust that your message has reached your recipient.

Perhaps we've seen the last of the days when email was considered reliable and instantaneous. It's sad, but I suppose the only constant thing in life is change.

As Leisa said, I don't see us taking a step backwards so I believe email is here to stay, it's simply going to become more irrelevant or at least less first-choice as an option.

I would foresee that we will develop ways to "prefer" certain senders and that email screening will become the norm. In order to send someone an email you'll have to get their permission so-to-speak, or at least be given a unique identifier that will allow the recipient's email program to present the message to your correspondent.

We've already got opt-in and sender-confirmation systems that are becoming more widespread and I think this is going to become the norm. As an analogy, I suppose it might be like the conversion from party-line telephones and operator assisted dialing to private lines and self-dialing.

It's a shame, but I suppose it was bound to happen.

tholt576 · #4 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 04:31 PM

The webproworld email gets blocked by Yahoo's spam filter. I have to keep the spam filter turned off to make sure I get everything that I need to get. OTOH, my ISP's SMTP server gets regularly blocked by road runner and AOL. It's really a pain.

aaronmp2003 · #5 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 04:48 PM

ACK! Don't take my cyber communication away!

I do absolutely see the issue here, and it's lame that such a great way to communicate has become such a hassle due to unethical practices.

Personally, I have a SPAM filter, but I have it set so that I get a quick peek at the message list before anything actually gets deleted. It's an extra step, but worth it.

As far as my own customers, I encourage them to keep my telephone numbers and instant message ID's handy so that email is not the only way we ever talk outside of training sessions.

-- Aaron

Rhys · #6 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 06:21 PM

I doubt that email is going to become irrelevant, as it is too useful. I find an email list is far more productive than a website, especially at keeping in touch with people on an ongoing basis.

As far as not being able to determine if it reached the recipient, this is also true with the telephone since the advent of answering machines and voicemail, and is even true sometimes of snailmail.

Automated read receipts would be a solution, as most people never bother to let you know if they received the message, even if they read it and are interested in the contents.

Whitelists make sure emails from selected people get through the filters, but severely limit the usefulness of email. I do a lot of genealogy research and need to send and receive email from people I don't know and never heard of.

Hopefully the new Spam Law Pres. Bush just signed will be enforced and will make a dent in the volumn of spam.

TrafficProducer · #7 (**permalink**) 12-16-2003, 07:07 PM

Email is the only easy way to communicate with people all over the world.

It’s a shame that this method has been taken over by spammers.

The fact that Spammers do exist shows how effective this method of communicating is, (or used to be?).

New laws will probally not stop the major spammer as they find loopholes in the law or just move to Countries and hosts, which don’t stop their actions.

Some Spam fitters can filter out Friendly emails but these usually have to be taught which emails are wanted and which to bin.

There are plenty of Brains, Hardware and Software out there. It needs someone to come up with a new method that has the advantages of email without the problems caused by Spammers, Virus posters, fraudulent email posters, etc…

May be a giant central computer that is able to check emails and block those on a bad list would help, a little.

And.. What about the story that the CIA is checking all emails for certain words to help track criminals, etc..

If this is true? They could filter out a lot of bad stuff or Track it to catch the posters.

Laws are being improved all the time, and email is still a relatively new technology in Legal and Government terms.

What is Spam to one person may be wanted by another person.

dwilliams · #8 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 12:25 PM

Personally I don't know what I would do without my email. I can't even imagine playing phone tag and leaving messages or waiting till eleven o'clock my time so I could call someone on the coast, or hanging around the office till late at night waiting for an overseas call as we had to do back in the day. Now, I can get in to the office as early as I wish, enter some ideas, thoughts, questions, topics of discussion, and send them off anywhere in the world knowing that eventually (some sooner than others obviously and you know who you are) will get back to me.

Email gives me time to stop and think and rephrase and check facts before I open my mouth. Despite the problem of SPAM (which I believe will eventually go away or at least lessen as it becomes less effective) I just can't see a better means of communcation (unless we all start using boards like this one).

Bassplayer · #9 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:08 PM

Hi,

Much is starting to come out about the Internet2 which is in the beta test stage. My understanding is that all of the problems associated with spoofing and such will be resolved with the new Ip structures and rules. Has anyone else heard this and can elaborate?

DMeeks · #10 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:15 PM

I've never used e-mail as a marketing tool. I'm not saying doing so is a bad idea, but I just never used it.

But, now I believe it's a waste of time. I don't have any data to support my opinion just my own reaction. I NEVER buy or contact anyone based on spam. Even if I like the concept, I will seek out a vendor who didn't fill my mailbox with junk.

I have several mailboxes and most of the get 20-50 e-mails a day. They are so good at finding me that I can't figure out how they do it. I set up a new e-mail address for a client and within 2 weeks he was getting a ton of junk per day!

I guess I'm getting off the subject, but I hate spam and spammers so much, I feel like responding to them only justifies their method. And opt-in is a joke!

Well, that's my 2 cents. <smile>

Thanks...Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by computermark

Is email becomeing obsolete? With all of the different spam solutions being used, can anyone really be sure that thier email will reach it's intended destination?

Hundreds of spam bloking softwares available
some good some not so good. None definitive.

Is email a malignancy that should be treated with a scalpel not bandaids?

bbauer · #11 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:38 PM

I haven't done any email advertising for the past several years because it was just too much hassle and got me banned and my ISP pulled a time or two so I just quit fooling with it.

Just never could figure out how to get around the problems.

Now I just bought an IP blaster program that delivers the adds to the screen instead of to the email so it can't be legally called spam or controlled by the email blockers.

Problem is that I can't figure out how to make it work yet. There are no instructions or help files out there anywhere and the company won't give any help either.

I bought the resale rights to it as well so if anybody wants to help me figure out how to use it I will give them a free copy for their problems and work in solving the mystery of how to make it work provided they fill me in on how to do it in return for my having given them a copy of the program.

If you want to try to make it work then send me an email to CEO@Creditwrench.com and I'll send you a free copy to see what you can do with it.

I'll tell you ahead of time that the way it comes configured it will only send emails to yourself, but you can change that easily so it gets it's IP address es from a huge list of IP addresses that are provided with the program and you can easily make your own lists and use them too.

You can also manually enter in a whole range of IP addresses for it to send to. But nothing happens and no emails actually go anywhere.

I'd love to get this thing going.

I'm also using another program that is bringing me several thousand hits a month just like clockwork and that one is free too.

If you are interested in learning about that one let me know by email as well.

JayDrake · #12 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by computermark

Is email becomeing obsolete? With all of the different spam solutions being used, can anyone really be sure that thier email will reach it's intended destination?

Hundreds of spam bloking softwares available
some good some not so good. None definitive.

Is email a malignancy that should be treated with a scalpel not bandaids?

Good spam filtering works just fine. The setup I use filters 95%+ of spam with 0 false positives and only nominal work on my part to maintain it.

On the server I use spamassassin, mimedefang and clamAV as well as an ORDBS. (Open Relay database) This cuts a huge amount of the spam and almost all virus content out immediately. If something is rejected entirely, the sender receives a notice telling them it was rejected and why. If the spam filters don't like it, they send it on 'tagged' as likely being spam.

From there, on my machine, I run a blacklist/whitelist system where anyone in my address book gets to skip the spam filter. Anyone on my custom blacklist goes straight to deleted. Mail then goes to the Bayesian filter which 'learns' what is and isn't spam based on what I mark as spam and what I retrieve from the spam or suspect mailboxes. It has yet to make a false positive as spam, though it's had a few it's put into suspects that I wanted, and occassionally spam will slip past it, most commonly when something new and annoying comes out in email.

In all, for my account alone, I filter between 200-400 emails a day at the server level, 50-100 a day go to spam or suspect, 1 or 2 a week are false positives in suspect and I might have to actually delete 3-4 a day from my inbox. Oh... and of the 50-100, only 10-20 are suspect. The rest are definitely spam.

I'd say I'm winning my personal battle with spam based on those numbers.

JayDrake · #13 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 04:47 PM

Hmm... I should add to this that over 6 months I've received 5 complaints from people whose email got rejected. In each case they were rejected because of an open relay that did in fact exist on their mail server. 4 of those who complained had their technical staff contact me so they could take care of the problem, 1 of those I ended up doing the work for, 1 refused to believe he had a problem. The 5th who complained simply told me I was wrong. It's really too bad when people refuse to believe irrefutable truth.

DMeeks · #14 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:28 PM

No offense, but if you make your ad (not add) pop up on my screen I can promise you I will NEVER give you the time of day. Personally, I object to the entire "pop-up" or spam concept. "Piss off 1,000,000 people is justified so I can make one sale!!!!!"

Maybe you found a way to get around the "legal" aspect of spam, but you're just exchanging one PITA for another!

Maybe you should take a poll and see how many people appreciate your intrusion. Would the results matter to you?

....Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbauer

I haven't done any email advertising for the past several years because it was just too much hassle and got me banned and my ISP pulled a time or two so I just quit fooling with it.

Just never could figure out how to get around the problems.

Now I just bought an IP blaster program that delivers the adds to the screen instead of to the email so it can't be legally called spam or controlled by the email blockers.

Problem is that I can't figure out how to make it work yet. There are no instructions or help files out there anywhere and the company won't give any help either.

I bought the resale rights to it as well so if anybody wants to help me figure out how to use it I will give them a free copy for their problems and work in solving the mystery of how to make it work provided they fill me in on how to do it in return for my having given them a copy of the program.

If you want to try to make it work then send me an email to CEO@Creditwrench.com and I'll send you a free copy to see what you can do with it.

I'll tell you ahead of time that the way it comes configured it will only send emails to yourself, but you can change that easily so it gets it's IP address es from a huge list of IP addresses that are provided with the program and you can easily make your own lists and use them too.

You can also manually enter in a whole range of IP addresses for it to send to. But nothing happens and no emails actually go anywhere.

I'd love to get this thing going.

I'm also using another program that is bringing me several thousand hits a month just like clockwork and that one is free too.

If you are interested in learning about that one let me know by email as well.

JayDrake · #15 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbauer

Now I just bought an IP blaster program that delivers the adds to the screen instead of to the email so it can't be legally called spam or controlled by the email blockers.

Actually, what you are doing with one of those programs is exploiting a microsoft security hole that should already be patched if the end user knows what they are doing.

There are legitimate paid services that will pop up ads to people who have downloaded software which states in it's use agreement that you have to have this additional software installed in order for their product to use, but I would guess your conversion rate would be terrible as very few people like to be interrupted like that, and in most cases it will only serve to have negative impact on your branding efforts.

By the way, if you use a security exploit I recommend that you make sure you have that same exploit patched on your own machine. I know several people who delight in leaving certain exploits such as this open so they can trace back and barrage those who find them with an extensive array of 'you idiot' and other offensive fake pop up ads.

dealercrm · #16 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDrake

I'd say I'm winning my personal battle with spam based on those numbers.

Depends on how you look at it... Is the spam still sucking up your bandwidth? Is the spam still utilizing processor, hard disk space and memory usage that could otherwise be used for something more important? How much time will it take to maintain your spam server software and updates? Oh and you still have 5% left to deal with?

:)

Can the spam

dealercrm · #17 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:40 PM

duplicate ... ooops

DMeeks · #18 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:44 PM

I agree! I think it's rude and arrorgant to assume I welcome your ad popping up on my screen. A banner is one thing, and to get ads in exchange for some free service, etc. but I don't appreciate your intrusion. And I sure as heck won't buy anything from you!

Thanks...Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDrake

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbauer

Now I just bought an IP blaster program that delivers the adds to the screen instead of to the email so it can't be legally called spam or controlled by the email blockers.

Actually, what you are doing with one of those programs is exploiting a microsoft security hole that should already be patched if the end user knows what they are doing.

There are legitimate paid services that will pop up ads to people who have downloaded software which states in it's use agreement that you have to have this additional software installed in order for their product to use, but I would guess your conversion rate would be terrible as very few people like to be interrupted like that, and in most cases it will only serve to have negative impact on your branding efforts.

By the way, if you use a security exploit I recommend that you make sure you have that same exploit patched on your own machine. I know several people who delight in leaving certain exploits such as this open so they can trace back and barrage those who find them with an extensive array of 'you idiot' and other offensive fake pop up ads.

Conficio · #19 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tholt576

The webproworld email gets blocked by Yahoo's spam filter. I have to keep the spam filter turned off to make sure I get everything that I need to get. OTOH, my ISP's SMTP server gets regularly blocked by road runner and AOL. It's really a pain.

Yahoo calls it's filter bulk mail filter and that is not too wrong for WebProWorld. If you mark it as "No Spam", I believe it will get off the hook.

If your ISP gets blocked by AOL, change your ISP and shoot AOL. AOL refuses valid SMTP connection from "dynamic" IP addresses. There is nothing in the RFCs that classifies an IP address as dynamic and also nothing that sugests, that a dynamic IP address could not operate a mail server. The internet does only work, if all parts of the protocols are implemented fully.

My two cents of anger
K<o>

Conficio · #20 (**permalink**) 12-17-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leisa

I don't know about becoming obsolete but I can tell ya that I finally gave up on spam-blockers. I was missing important messages and so on. My question would be, if not email then what? We certainly wouldn't take backward steps so what do you forsee as the next evolution of Internet communication?

It's hard these days to live w/o spam-filters. I'd recommend to you, filter, don't block spam. One of the most effective filters is to whitelist (let through) all e-mail, where the sender is in your address book.

Then you can occasionally screen the filtered mail and fish out the ones you wanted. Don't forget to add the addresses to your address book.

Happy halidays
K<o>