Is Google dropping ODP/DMOZ?

minstrel · #1 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 10:32 AM

Is Google preparing to drop ODP/DMOZ directory listings? Some at ODP believe so... it has also been pointed out in a couple of threads here at WebProWorld that Google has not updated its ODP data in several months, which might be seen as lending credence to the rumor.

ODP editors are wondering about the impact of such a move on the directory. For many webmasters, the hope of improving Google ranking is the only reason for going through the headache of submitting to ODP.

Some minimal details are available here at the ODP WebLog site.

What do you think about this? If true, would this be a positive move for Google, webmasters, and the internet community?

Garrett · #2 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 11:31 AM

Hi Minstrel,

So the assembled evidence is this:

Google hasn't updated their ODP data in several months.

Google's "new-look" test pages don't have directory listings.

Is there anything I'm missing?

I'm going to kick this around some, but my guess is they won't drop the ODP because directories, to my understanding, help algorithm-based search engines maintain relevance.

Good catch by the way - I really appreciate your looking out for potential big news. If this is true, it's very big news!

minstrel · #3 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 11:34 AM

No, Garrett, I think that's basically the "evidence" at this point.

I would have classified it under "just one more Google rumor" except that the source is ODP editors themselves...

Garrett · #4 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 12:03 PM

I wrote to the guy who made that post in the ODP blog regarding the possibility of Google dropping the ODP.

Here's what he said:

"The only evidence I have at present is the screenshots, and the fact that Google has not updated their version of the directory for some months now, despite there being data available. I'm afraid I cannot cite any further evidence."

Regards,
Neil T.

Garrett

cbp · #5 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 02:12 PM

The Directory is still there on the speculated new home page at Google. Just click <More> - the Dierctory and a whole lot of other things are linked from the <more> page.

I have only seen the new home page once, that disappeared when I refreshed. It appears Google are letting it out from time to time for short times for some users.

Google updated from DMOZ/ODP 8 times in 2002 and 2 times in 2003. There was heaps of speculation last year that the were going to drop the directory because they had not updated .... then they updated in November.

CBP

Garrett · #6 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 03:11 PM

Thanks for your investigative work, and your historical perspective cbp.

I just got this from my contact at the ODP:

"Someone who commented on the site said that the directory will still be there, but only if you select 'More >>' on the screens. It won't be there by default and will probably become more difficult to find on the new site. -- Neil T."

Steven Glover · #7 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 03:48 PM

Im not sure but maybe google doesn't update as often because the DMOZ directory doesn't have that much new information added to it. Maybe they feel they get more bang for their buck by updating once a year.

Whatever the case I am sure they won't be dropping DMOZ listings anytime soon.

cbp · #8 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 04:26 PM

Thats a good point - what do Google gain by updating the Directory more often? DMOZ make available an updated file weekly for its downstream users (Google is only one of 1000's). 1000-4000 sites get added to DMOZ daily or weekly (sorry I forgot which it was) - but given that there are 4 million sites there, this is not a great % increase. Why would it matter to Google if their current Directory has 150 sites in a particular category or 151 if they updated more often. It may matter to the webmaster, but Google's concern is the searcher - so if not updating its not impacting on the experience of the searcher, does it matter?

If you go to DMOZ and search for 'sites using ODP data', you get a good list. I recently checked some of them out and was surprised at how up-to-date they were - even the obscure ones with no PR on the home page. It is someone paradoxical that the least used DMOZ clones are updated more often than the most used one .... just don't figure :-)

CBP

Garrett · #9 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 05:08 PM

I contacted Google to ask if they were dropping ODP. Their spokesperson said, "nothing to announce at this time."

Which I'm interpreting to mean... no.

syc · #10 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Glover

Im not sure but maybe google doesn't update as often because the DMOZ directory doesn't have that much new information added to it. Maybe they feel they get more bang for their buck by updating once a year.

Whatever the case I am sure they won't be dropping DMOZ listings anytime soon.

Maybe the Dmoz servers lag out everytime google tries to update the information.

Garrett · #11 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 05:25 PM

I wrote to Dan to get his thoughts - he backed up what cpb said earlier:

"This isn't the first time Google has been slow to update their ODP data.

"Part of the problem in the past has been on the ODP side, where their data was bad."

Dan Thies, SEO Research Labs
http://www.seoresearchlabs.com

Steven Glover · #12 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 07:18 PM

Syc youy are correct there was a period when it was almost impossible to get a solid conncetion to the ODP site.

cbp · #13 (**permalink**) 02-10-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Maybe the Dmoz servers lag out everytime google tries to update the information.

It does not work like that. DMOZ produce a weekly file for downloading. During the technical problems with submitting sites last year, there was never a problem with the download of the RDF dump for Google or anyone else to use.

CBP

cbp · #14 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 02:55 AM

For anyone interested, here is the ODP file of the entire directory that Google and 1000's of other end users download when they want to update or create their own directory:
http://rdf.dmoz.org

CBP

simonm · #15 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 06:58 AM

My experience is that Google updates from odp about once a quarter and that doesn't seem to have changed recently.

richkoi · #16 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Google's "new-look" test pages don't have directory listings.

Does anyone have a link to Google's test site(s)? I would like to see what Google is up to.

Thanks,

Rich

cbp · #17 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Does anyone have a link to Google's test site(s)? I would like to see what Google is up to.

There isn't a "test site" - it just appears for an occasional user at odd times for as short time. A few have been able to get screen shots - follow the links in Minstrels first message.

CBP

chris_g · #18 (**permalink**) 02-11-2004, 09:02 PM

I am a fan of DMOZ (ODP) but I can't help think there must be a better directory for Google to base their Algo on. ODP has not been keeping up to new site submittals or maintaining what is in the directory now, the task to too big for the few edtitors they have left.

As far as Gooogle is concerned though if the information is that old is it really a good way to judge websites? I know its only a small portion of what Google uses to rank sites but what is Google looking to get from ODP.

What are the choices? I can't think of a suitable directory that has built a substantial database yet.

Dragonsi · #19 (**permalink**) 02-12-2004, 09:02 AM

I agree with Chris_g

The data in DMOZ is often out of date and not a true reflection of the current state of the Internet. Plus sourcing such important data and using it to determine PR (or partly) from a voluntry run organisation where many if its editors have too much power is not a good professional line to take.

minstrel · #20 (**permalink**) 02-12-2004, 09:19 AM

How important are ODP listings to how Google ranks your site? I would guess that at this point not that important for a number of reasons:

1. more than one WebProWorld member has described sites that rank very well in Google but are not listed in ODP

2. Google only infrequently updates its ODP data

3. we all know that ODP is becoming increasingly out of date and overwhelmed by the task of having a human editor personally review every site added to ODP - Google must know this too and this clearly reduces the value of the data ODP provides and will continue to do so the further ODP falls behind

I don't know, in fact, that a listing in ODP has any more weight than a link from any other site to your website - albeit one that has a decent PageRank (what is the PR for ODP, I wonder...) On the other hand, rumors about "expert sites" being weighted more heavily in future has I think revived interest on the part of Webmasters in being listed in expert sites, which has perhaps provided new interest in finding ways to get ODP listings. However, whatever "expert sites" means (assuming this is in Google's future plans at all), it certainly does not mean only ODP, even if ODP is included in the definition.

Steven Glover · #21 (**permalink**) 02-12-2004, 11:37 AM

The page rank for www.dmoz.org is currently 9/10.

I have a feeling that Google is well aware of the DMOZ short comings. Based on nothing but opinion I believe the only reason DMOZ may in fact have such a high PR is that so many other tiny SE and Directories base some of their data on the ODP info.

I also believe that Minstrel is correct about the renewed interest in ODP. I am not sure at the moment ODP is ready for that. They feel they are being scrutinized now. I have a feeling that looking glass will be magnifying a lot more in the months ahead.

seafoam · #22 (**permalink**) 02-12-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Based on nothing but opinion I believe the only reason DMOZ may in fact have such a high PR is that so many other tiny SE and Directories base some of their data on the ODP info.

Might it not have something to do with the fact that all of these tiny sites, but most importantly the Google Directory, make links back to the ODP? You have to dig deep in the Google directory to find a page with toolbar Page Rank as low as 5/10. There must be hundreds if not thousands of pages with 7/10 all pointing at ODP. So it is no surprise to me.

What would be interesting would be to see how much the ODP PR falls if Google drops them.

Steven Glover · #23 (**permalink**) 02-12-2004, 04:30 PM

Basically what I was getting at. :)