Is Google preparing to drop ODP/DMOZ directory listings? Some at ODP believe so... it has also been pointed out in a couple of threads here at WebProWorld that Google has not updated its ODP data in several months, which might be seen as lending credence to the rumor.

ODP editors are wondering about the impact of such a move on the directory. For many webmasters, the hope of improving Google ranking is the only reason for going through the headache of submitting to ODP.

Some minimal details are available here at the ODP WebLog site.

What do you think about this? If true, would this be a positive move for Google, webmasters, and the internet community?

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Hi Minstrel,

So the assembled evidence is this:

Google hasn't updated their ODP data in several months.

Google's "new-look" test pages don't have directory listings.

Is there anything I'm missing?

I'm going to kick this around some, but my guess is they won't drop the ODP because directories, to my understanding, help algorithm-based search engines maintain relevance.

Good catch by the way - I really appreciate your looking out for potential big news. If this is true, it's very big news!

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Garrett French
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No, Garrett, I think that's basically the "evidence" at this point.

I would have classified it under "just one more Google rumor" except that the source is ODP editors themselves...

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I wrote to the guy who made that post in the ODP blog regarding the possibility of Google dropping the ODP.

Here's what he said:

"The only evidence I have at present is the screenshots, and the fact that Google has not updated their version of the directory for some months now, despite there being data available. I'm afraid I cannot cite any further evidence."

Regards,
Neil T.


Garrett

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Garrett French
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The Directory is still there on the speculated new home page at Google. Just click <More> - the Dierctory and a whole lot of other things are linked from the <more> page.

I have only seen the new home page once, that disappeared when I refreshed. It appears Google are letting it out from time to time for short times for some users.

Google updated from DMOZ/ODP 8 times in 2002 and 2 times in 2003. There was heaps of speculation last year that the were going to drop the directory because they had not updated .... then they updated in November.

CBP

Thanks for your investigative work, and your historical perspective cbp.

I just got this from my contact at the ODP:

"Someone who commented on the site said that the directory will still be there, but only if you select 'More >>' on the screens. It won't be there by default and will probably become more difficult to find on the new site. -- Neil T."

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Im not sure but maybe google doesn't update as often because the DMOZ directory doesn't have that much new information added to it. Maybe they feel they get more bang for their buck by updating once a year.

Whatever the case I am sure they won't be dropping DMOZ listings anytime soon.

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Thats a good point - what do Google gain by updating the Directory more often? DMOZ make available an updated file weekly for its downstream users (Google is only one of 1000's). 1000-4000 sites get added to DMOZ daily or weekly (sorry I forgot which it was) - but given that there are 4 million sites there, this is not a great % increase. Why would it matter to Google if their current Directory has 150 sites in a particular category or 151 if they updated more often. It may matter to the webmaster, but Google's concern is the searcher - so if not updating its not impacting on the experience of the searcher, does it matter?

If you go to DMOZ and search for 'sites using ODP data', you get a good list. I recently checked some of them out and was surprised at how up-to-date they were - even the obscure ones with no PR on the home page. It is someone paradoxical that the least used DMOZ clones are updated more often than the most used one .... just don't figure :-)

CBP

I contacted Google to ask if they were dropping ODP. Their spokesperson said, "nothing to announce at this time."

Which I'm interpreting to mean... no.

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Garrett French
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Maybe the Dmoz servers lag out everytime google tries to update the information.

I wrote to Dan to get his thoughts - he backed up what cpb said earlier:

"This isn't the first time Google has been slow to update their ODP data.

"Part of the problem in the past has been on the ODP side, where their data was bad."

Dan Thies, SEO Research Labs
http://www.seoresearchlabs.com

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Garrett French
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Syc youy are correct there was a period when it was almost impossible to get a solid conncetion to the ODP site.

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It does not work like that. DMOZ produce a weekly file for downloading. During the technical problems with submitting sites last year, there was never a problem with the download of the RDF dump for Google or anyone else to use.

CBP

For anyone interested, here is the ODP file of the entire directory that Google and 1000's of other end users download when they want to update or create their own directory:
http://rdf.dmoz.org

CBP

My experience is that Google updates from odp about once a quarter and that doesn't seem to have changed recently.

Does anyone have a link to Google's test site(s)? I would like to see what Google is up to.

Thanks,

Rich

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Me

There isn't a "test site" - it just appears for an occasional user at odd times for as short time. A few have been able to get screen shots - follow the links in Minstrels first message.

CBP

I am a fan of DMOZ (ODP) but I can't help think there must be a better directory for Google to base their Algo on. ODP has not been keeping up to new site submittals or maintaining what is in the directory now, the task to too big for the few edtitors they have left.

As far as Gooogle is concerned though if the information is that old is it really a good way to judge websites? I know its only a small portion of what Google uses to rank sites but what is Google looking to get from ODP.

What are the choices? I can't think of a suitable directory that has built a substantial database yet.

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I agree with Chris_g

The data in DMOZ is often out of date and not a true reflection of the current state of the Internet. Plus sourcing such important data and using it to determine PR (or partly) from a voluntry run organisation where many if its editors have too much power is not a good professional line to take.

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How important are ODP listings to how Google ranks your site? I would guess that at this point not that important for a number of reasons:

1. more than one WebProWorld member has described sites that rank very well in Google but are not listed in ODP

2. Google only infrequently updates its ODP data

3. we all know that ODP is becoming increasingly out of date and overwhelmed by the task of having a human editor personally review every site added to ODP - Google must know this too and this clearly reduces the value of the data ODP provides and will continue to do so the further ODP falls behind

I don't know, in fact, that a listing in ODP has any more weight than a link from any other site to your website - albeit one that has a decent PageRank (what is the PR for ODP, I wonder...) On the other hand, rumors about "expert sites" being weighted more heavily in future has I think revived interest on the part of Webmasters in being listed in expert sites, which has perhaps provided new interest in finding ways to get ODP listings. However, whatever "expert sites" means (assuming this is in Google's future plans at all), it certainly does not mean only ODP, even if ODP is included in the definition.

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The page rank for www.dmoz.org is currently 9/10.

I have a feeling that Google is well aware of the DMOZ short comings. Based on nothing but opinion I believe the only reason DMOZ may in fact have such a high PR is that so many other tiny SE and Directories base some of their data on the ODP info.

I also believe that Minstrel is correct about the renewed interest in ODP. I am not sure at the moment ODP is ready for that. They feel they are being scrutinized now. I have a feeling that looking glass will be magnifying a lot more in the months ahead.

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Might it not have something to do with the fact that all of these tiny sites, but most importantly the Google Directory, make links back to the ODP? You have to dig deep in the Google directory to find a page with toolbar Page Rank as low as 5/10. There must be hundreds if not thousands of pages with 7/10 all pointing at ODP. So it is no surprise to me.

What would be interesting would be to see how much the ODP PR falls if Google drops them.

Basically what I was getting at. :)

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Many sites are using php ODP scripts to put dmoz on their site. That alone significantly increases google ranking and inward links. I'm sure people would continue to stick with ODP submissions. dmoz has been messy in the past though. I remember going to them several times in earlier years and their site wasn't accepting submissions, search results were down, or the submission script wouldn't function. When I'd check some of the subsections I'd find that many links were broken or not what they were said to be. Maybe google is just checking up to see if dmoz can keep up with their own directory before throwing the "fresh" results in. I doubt they'll get a better source for their google directory or drop their directory all together. I think they're just concerned with quality.

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I can see into my crystal ball...

2004.. Google drops ODP and launches it's new directory in 2005. Charging webmasters a fee to be listed in it's directory.

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From what I've seen you get alot more brownie points with Google from that $300 directory listing with Yahoo. We did that a couple of months ago and it showed up with the next link updates.

Speaking of which... About 3 days ago our links listed with Google went from 237 to 105. One of the other real estate sites a friend of mine owns did the same...even worse, really. She went from almost 500 down to 80. Does anyone know what's going on with that?

Jan

What do you base that on?
For all my sites, the PR of the Google & DMOZ categories are way higher the the equivalent Yahoo category.
You can't base it on what Google shows as backlinks. Google has NEVER shown all backlinks and has only ever show a sample - the number of links in the sample goes up and down. The full criteria for the sample is not known, but a PR threshold is one. Even though they do not show all the links, if Google knows about them and can crawl them, then they count towards PR.

CBP

I know they don't list all the links. We have almost 450 showing on Alta Vista. But a week ago Google showed us having 237. Over this past weekend they dropped us down to 105. I've never seen that happen before. They showed us having 83 up till December and then bumped us up to 237. Now back down to 105. I'm hoping they are just in the middle of a link dance or something.

Jan

The point is - why does it matter how many Google show? Why are you hoping it goes up?

If they know about the link and can crawl it, its gets counted towards PR, regardless if its shown.

CBP

The point is - why does it matter how many Google show? Why are you hoping it goes up?

Nobody knows HOW that works. And I bust my butt 7 days a week on links. I like to see the results of my work. THAT'S why I hope they go back up.

Jan

Put that thing away, nobody wants to see your ball. Google could have done that a long time ago if they really wanted to. Silly speculations backed by no evidence.

Yahoo! directory irritates me. You pay them off and you get very quick listing and a good bit of inward links. The reason mostly does is because I don't have the 300 bucks they want >_<.

I like dmoz though. Depends on your editor, some of the areas have quality selection and some are a mess. Why couldn't they use zeal or something? Buy out looksmart.com and go with zeal results. They seem more organized than the google directory.

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I too understand what you mean about working to get links. Although I've just begun and am sending out several e-mail requests a day I'm getting very little response YET.

But somehow someway I've managed to make it to page 1 and 2 on Google and Yahoo for the very specific terms of swords knives daggers, swords knives armor, and swords knives daggers armor. Now I just have to get myself up there for the individual terms as well.

I must admit this is more a fluke than planning although I have tried to make sure I have a fair amount of keyword repetition that still sounds like a conversational style in the text.

I recently added alt-image tags to my images and made a few of my keywords into Headings that are also clickable links so we shall see what effect that has.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd rather see my rankings than how many links Google shows linking to me. Half the time when I check the links: feature and it refers to a smaller search engine the only time I see my listing is when I click on the "cached" copy. Go Figure.

Also thanks all for this post as although I had previously seen the DMOZ and ODP I had not yet submitted. At least I've done that now even if it doesn't get accepted.

Marsha

P.S. luvdavy (unless I'm mistaken) it can't hurt to have the link to your site in your siggy as well as every link counts. (I think)

For copyright reasons, I do not want to cut and paste this (it appeared in another forum), but the poster sent an email to Google re his site being in DMOZ and not in Google. In part here is the reply from Google:

"The Google Directory is built on work done by the Open Directory Project... We update our directory on a regular cycle. ... Please be assured that we are actively working with the ODP to find a solution."

I have never seen this kind of reply reported before. Certainly no indication that they are dropping it.

CBP

I think I used to have one of them in my sig...and I just tried to go in and put another one there. I have too many that I want to add a link to...LOL.

Jan

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A friend of mine also wrote to Google, complaining that her PR6 site was listed in the directory below PR5 sites:

"Their reply is that they understand my concern and that they are working with the ODP on it. "

Elite Skills

I don't believe that was in anyway a silly speculation. There are some serious pointers indicating that google may go public and once people are able to purchase google stocks you will see some very real pressure for google to explore any and all money making avenues. These revenues will hopefully be tempered to some extent by the original vision, but the pressure is still going to be there.

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I think that is a bit of a cop out by Google. There are 1000's of downstream users of DMOZ database. Most of them seem to have no trouble updating their database and most of them a most likely small businesses or one-person-operations, so if Google are "working with ODP to correct it" ... I doubt it.

CBP

I don't know I believe Google could actually be having problems working with the feed as is and may indeed be trying to work with DMOZ to get this corrected and perhaps DMOZ is even working with them.

I find it ironic that Google is being accused of copping out when they actually made an attempt at answering. Many of the directories don't even respond to emails, even generically.

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How do you know it wasn't an automated response? I'm sure they get thousands of questions. They're a friggin' search engine, they know how to regex for selected words or frequently asked questions grab a frequency and categorize. They answer the same questions every day, do you really think they'd give all of those questions a personalized response without need? I'm sure they would have gone crazy if that had been the case with the florida update.

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My point is I am happy with any response even automated.

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They don't have the resources or maybe even technology to do so. It is in no way a good use of resources for a nonprofit directory that has it's hands full to answer vanity questions.

So your saying once they open it up to stocks they will get more pressure to get revenue. Why would they have not wanted to do it before if it could be profitable? It's the same thing. Google will still be doing it's best to assure quality and therefore get maximum users. It is not at all a credible indicator and categorizes into personal speculation.

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And what if it is? I think the point is that you won't even get that much from DMOZ... a point that was made in great detail elsewhere in these forums.

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Hmmm automated response

20 lines of code at the absolute max...


Users that are a lot more happy nearly immediatly.

Where I come from we call that a no brainer.

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Not sure I know what you mean in your last statement... 20 lines of code?

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What I mean is that whether your on a feedback page or someone is sending an email directly to an email address you can setup an automaed response system in 20 lines of code or less.

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Make like a "DMOZ new section" or something would be ideal. They give automated responses to reject editor applications. I'm not sure if there's a head poncho there to write anymore code for them. Do you think they're a non profit group or google pays them for what they do(owners, not editors)? Happy VD ;).

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DMOZ/ODP is owned by Netscape/AOL which poorly resources them (out of date servers and 2 paid staff). Google and the 1000's of other downstream users of the directory don't pay a cent.

CBP

I guess it wouldn't benefit them to help out their competitors. So they may be purposefully trying to scatter brain google? DMOZ could have at least put some kind of donation thing up. Ah well, the whole thing just a big mess them. I thought it had some organization to it.

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There is increasing speculation that Google is about to update the Directory.

Many sites that are in DMOZ and Google directory, but have had a category change at DMOZ, but not yet had the change reflected in the Google Directory are reporting that the category that appears in the Google organic search results is the new DMOZ category (even though they are not there in the Google Directory). This could have started happening as long as 10 days ago.

This could mean (speculation) that Google are drawing the category descriptions from an udated version of DMOZ, but they have not yet updated the Directory .... yet.... please don't quote me as fact.

CBP