I applaud your rational - and I actually don't disagree with your "single page" argument. Websites are not normally a single page though and there is a ton of things - you're not saying. I also have a big problem with your implied meaning of "content" (SEO or otherwise) in association with copywriting and subsequently "brand".

First: using "copywriters" - implies professional writing - adding "content" suggests informative, and adding actual "on-page" SEO techniques seems to reflect - page optimization or among other things editing page elements - even though you have suggested you never said that:

Yet your discussion posts says (bolded):


Second:

The "Google" brand drives Google to be #1 for Google which would be one of those "irrelevant keywords" or zero competitiveness keywords that you discussed had they not been as successful as they are. They don't solicit links to get ranked either thus using them to bolster your argument lacks something. As a matter of principle I strongly doubt they use any SEO's at all - yet your argument is quite suggestive that Google's position is based on some SEO ability to "develop links".

In the case of Dell, IBM and many others -- "brand" also drives them to be synonymous with a generic word (or keyword) - not some SEO developing a link strategy for them... thus your argument is a bit flawed in my estimation.

In contrast - "content" information/products/services and alot of marketing and more content, and customer service and support and yet more content made these companies who they are - they don't need "Link Monger" anything or "link acquisition" -- people naturally link to them because they are who they are - not because something else is dead, died or dying but become of their information, products/services - or just "known for quality content".

Notwithstanding, I tend to agree that keyword, keyword, keyword, on any single page and by itself is worth less... but telling people that you can be as successful as "Dell" or "Google" without any "content writing" (regardless of who wrote it) just add links -- is pure rubbish.

I know you didn't say that last part - however you are suggesting these big name companies are doing "link acquisition" to gain their positioning -- right? or wrong?

On the other hand -- if you actually mean keyword spamming and doorway pages rather than content writing or copywriting and just wanted to make the discussion "lively" ;) - this is old news (1998) and why Google is so successful.

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Brand? Are we talking about marketing now? Because I was under the distict impression we were talking about whether page elements SEO or anchor text and inbound link SEO was more effective.

It's quite simple, Fathom, either you can say:

1. Page elements SEO alone works in highly competitive keywords.

OR

2. Page elements SEO is just a start, and will not get you anywhere near the top ten for highly competitive keywords such as "web hosting", "search engine optimization", or "viagra".


Fathom, for all I care a transvestite, pink tutu-wearing monkey could be putting up the links. How the links got there doesn't matter - what matters is how Dell got that ranking. They got it from anchor text of inbound links.

No, Fathom, I mean both your impotent keyword spamming SEO's, and your equally impotent content writing SEO's.

Content writing is not going to get you to the top of "web hosting". Content writing isn't going to get you to the top of "search engine optimization". Content writing isn't going to get you to the top of "viagra".

Anchor text and inbound links will.

__________________
Internet Marketing

I think you have missed the point completely, Or do you not realize how valuable a link from CNN is? And that it is the link thats doing the work not the content on CNN that somehow makes your site rank better.

__________________
Mel Nelson
Expert SEO | Cheap used cars

What a great question! Impossible to answer but the debate it generates is so insightful.

It’s a bit like asking a professional golfer which is more important, driving or putting? Some will be fabulous drivers, other fabulous putters but you need elements of both if you are to be successful.

We created the Linking Matters Report, http://www.linkingmatters.com to test how effective a linking strategy on its own would be. On Google, we now rank between position 8 and 10 in results for the term ‘linking’ (6.5 million results returned) and positions 1 and 2 for the term ‘linking strategy’ (1.6 million results returned).

The LM report is a free guide to link building and we launched in February 2003 using only a linking strategy to promote the site. We also linked out to over 50 other sites and resources.

In 7 months, 12,000 copies of the report were downloaded, we attracted nearly 1,000 inbound links and rose from a PageRank of zero to PR6. We did no formal SEO though our pages were search engine friendly.

Our strategy was to identify the top 50 information sites for online marketing and we succeeded in getting links and editorial from over 30 of them including SearchEngineWatch.com, Clickz.com, SitePoint.com, WilsonWeb.com, WDFM.com, SearchEngineNews.com, DrWeb.de and of course WebProNews.

Then in August 2003, we revamped the site and for the first time optimized pages for a core set of 9 keyword phrases. Within weeks our search engine traffic doubled and we rose to a PR7.

We have since dropped back to PR6, probably because we concentrated on client work and customer conversion issues rather than writing new content. However, we’re now back with more content and more outbound links and our traffic figures have jumped again.

The lessons I would take from our experiences are:

• You absolutely must have great content (and should never be afraid to link out to great content)
• A linking strategy, targeted at top sites can produce tremendous results
• Those results will be greatly enhanced through SEO
• Keep adding content.

Hope that’s of interest.

Now where are those golf clubs ...

Yes Minstrel you are saying that from your point of view that the page does contain the word computers, but google is saying that from thier point of view they only see the word computers in links pointing to the page.

Why discount what Google says?

__________________
Mel Nelson
Expert SEO | Cheap used cars

I don't - some of what I said is from Google's listing. I also know that Google isn't going to tell you or I or John Scott or anyone else all it considers to determine ranking.

We all know thank links to a page are important - I fully agree with that conclusion. I know from our past debates that you and I disagree somewhat on the role that other factors play and that's fine with me. Anyone who believe that on-page factors or meta tags and title tags are unimportant will presumably emphasize the former and discount or ignore the latter. I would, and have, advised people to pay equal attention to both.

That's all. I have no interest in converting the "links" people - only in letting other members know, especially those who are relatively new to site promotion, that there is another point of view.

__________________
Psychology Mental Health & Self-Help Forum
Online Counseling & Therapy | Mental Health Directory

Mel from Malaysia wrote, "I think you have missed the point completely, Or do you not realize how valuable a link from CNN is?"

Yes it might seem that way. What I have been describing is "search engine marketing" not "search engine optimization". (see: http://www.trafficlogic.com/ ... BTW I'm not associated with them in any way). I am very aware of how powerful a link from CNN is which is what I'm trying to impress on you. You don't need 1000 inbound links to get the first page of Google. You need one link from a top tier website.


"And that it is the link thats doing the work not the content on CNN that somehow makes your site rank better."

Yes and no on this one. I have to correct myself and say if you do apply some minor SEO stuff to the article, not only do you capture the keyword for the title, but you also capture every keyword phrase peppered throughout the first couple of paragraphs. Pretty cool huh??

In fact, for a non-competitve phrase campaign I ran, I was able to place in all of the listings for the first 2 pages for Google, Yahoo, and AOL search. Then all the client had to do was collect the opt-ins and make a sale after 10 compelling consecutive solicitations. Closure rate was over 60%.

This is how you market and sell on the internet.

P.S. great job kmcgaffin! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Content is King!

Exactly - My advice is to do both. I can't figure out why you're stuck on the premise that you can get tons of links without content. Why do readers need to make a choice here?

Exactly! You don't care! Dell got ranked for years and years of content development and millions of dollars spent in brand development and advertising. They have thousands of affiliated service centers, support centers, corporate partnerships -- they give donations to schools (computers)and are acknowledged for their givings - where do you suggest readers get these links if they're not Dell?

As a matter of "linking" your answer removes the fundamental reason why others would want to link - content!

hmmm... maybe I am impotent; I thought your own website actually did say something - I stand corrected! :-)

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Fathom, this may come as a shock to you, but the reason I don't care is because Google doesn't care.

HostDepartment has top ten for reseller hosting, website hosting, and top twenty for "web hosting" because of links. See that I said "links". I didn't say "organic links". I didn't say "bought links". You know why I don't differentiate? Because it doesn't make one iota of difference!

You're living in a dream world. "Add content and you'll naturally go to the top." Hogwash! That's 100% bs from the word go.

It's an excuse SEO's tell their clients when they fail to get them rankings.

SEOInc.com is top ten for "search engine optimization" because of links. Not because of content. Dell.com is top ten for "computer" because of links. Not because of content.

Google's algo is a simple mathematical calculation that doesn't consider TV advertisements. It doesn't consider brand. It looks at off page elements, and on page elements, makes a calculation and renders a decision.

__________________
Internet Marketing

To clarify, when Mr. Scott said
he of course meant to say, "In my opinion...".


Reminder from the WebProWorld Forum Rules:

__________________
Psychology Mental Health & Self-Help Forum
Online Counseling & Therapy | Mental Health Directory

That is correct. It's just my opinion. :)

__________________
Internet Marketing

I agree a good web site should have a little bit of everything but can anyone show me a top ten web site ranked for a good key word that has no links?

From reading threw everything it looks like everyone agrees not only do you need links but at this time Google puts more weight on links then content.

If not I can take a page with pictures that makes no sense at all you take a page that is full of great text but has not one link to it and we will see who gets ranked first for the key words on your page.

I will not use any meta tags.

__________________
Custom Website Design | Search Engine Optimization | Web Design Templates

If you really want to do that experiment, Janeth, I suggest that you do it both ways and check the results in more than one search engine.

However, I would caution you that even showing that you can achieve a top 10 ranking for links alone, or content alone, or that both work, you still will not have established that using both links AND content is not the best strategy for most websites.

Especially, when you factor in the "visitor" factor. How many people are going to click on that top 10 site with no content and stay for longer than about 10 seconds? How many "sales" or "customers" is that page going to bring you?

It's nice to have these theoretical debates from time to time - I enjoy them too - but let's be clear that to advise someone trying to promote a new website or to improve the ranking of an existing website to ignore either links or content is simply bad and potentially harmful advice.

...in my opinion, of course... ;o)

__________________
Psychology Mental Health & Self-Help Forum
Online Counseling & Therapy | Mental Health Directory

Janeth,

You're talking about two different things - SEO and marketing.

SEO is getting good rankings. That's anchor text and inbound links.

Marketing is writing copy that converts your visitors once they are there. Like, on V7inc.com, I'm not going to place any keyword density in there. I design pages for people - 100% for people.

SEO is all about rankings. Marketing is about selling the product.

:)

__________________
Internet Marketing

Yes I understand that and we work our site both ways. We work on text design nav. and everything else everyday for our visitors but very little is done on site for ranking with Google.

I'm not talking about marketing or selling anything I'm talking about nothing but ranking.

I would never build a site with out content or one that was not set up to turn visitors into customers.

But my point is when it comes to Google links out weigh anything you can do to your site. My understanding is that Google will not even index the page if there is not at lest one link going to it.

Which means that yes we need text, logo, good nav. to market the site but to rank good in Google we only need links.

__________________
Custom Website Design | Search Engine Optimization | Web Design Templates

And I'm not saying to leave out the on site things either.

Both works a lot better then either one or the other but the links are the only thing that will get you ranked for the good key words.

We have tried everything to get ranked for web site design and are now working on links.

__________________
Custom Website Design | Search Engine Optimization | Web Design Templates

Forgive me if I interrupt this intense and fascinating exchange of viewpoints -- or even shift this posting to one of its own or another forum, but ...
Can someone please tell me just what exactly the phrase "anchor text" means?
Better still, can they point to some examples of it in a site (or two) I can reach to help me understand the idea?
I know it was touched upon in another forum (which is perhaps where this post belongs), but I can't find which one it was.
Thank you.
Duncan

__________________
Acts as an Exclusive Buyer Broker for purchasers of residential, industrial, commercial, and investment properties in all parts of the Niagara Peninsula.
http://www.duncanpollock.com
http://www.iciniagara.com

Admittedly we "are" going around in circles - and Janeth brings up a very good point (or at least a half point) - the other side of her question is "ever see a website with "zero" content ranked with just links to it (e.g. no text copy, image or code).

JohnScott "SEO" is marketing (sometimes badly mind you but marketing just the same) it brings buyers and sellers together via some medium or media.

So how does Dell do it?

Well those 34 links in DMOZ sure helps alot, which provides 34 links in Google Directory, 34 in AOL, 34 Netscape, Lycos, Hotbot, AltaVista and a few hundred half decent clones. I could be wrong here but I doubt Dell has a staffer that is also a senior DMOZ editor and getting them these links without "any content".

This is one reason why content drive "links" and not the other way around - and also why Google relies heavily on "links" to help in "quality control".

Links are powerful because (as Google explains -- they are "votes" that your website is worthy of being "more important" to the web than a site that has no votes (or links)... but the implied rational is you are offering something (inferring content... but I guess money talks so Dell could be buying links instead of displaying content which (adding) doesn't need to be "on the page" as long as the site is weighted that way).

Links tend to be more out of the hands of the webmasters, SEOs, the site owner than their own "content" (which I GET what JohnScott is leaning to) - this isn't to say that you can't manipulate "links" to make yourself appear more important to the web either.

Simply though content does drive what links you get and any SEO that only relies on link development, or link manipulation, or content developmewnt or content manipulation and not all of the former is doing their clients a big dis-service by producing "less competitive advantage".

Links are the offspring of content unfortunately it doesn't work the other way. That's why Google is the way it is.

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

That's advertising, not marketing. SEO has to do with search engine placement. In fact, the first two letters "S" and "E" stand for "search engine". :)

It's not marketing. It doesn't generate sales. It just generates impressions and views, which is advertising.

It's sad to see SEO's fail at rankings and then run hide behind a claok of "marketing".

Search engine optimization - and this discussion - is about specifically ranking in Google. Rankings. A client comes to me and says, "I want top ten rankings for this that and the other thing".

Do I say, "no, we are going to rank you, we're going to build your brand"?

No. SEO's have a job. Rankings. SEO's don't built brands. Not one (non-SEO) brand on the Internet was built by an SEO.

Not one.

The Failure of SEO - SEO is NOT Marketing

__________________
Internet Marketing

Interesting concept, but if you're assuming that the results provided to the average searcher are somehow better because they can be easily manipulated through anchor text you're contradicting yourself.

On-page content clearly should be the #1 factor to determine what a page is about. To clarify, this doesn't mean that additional weight should be given in a linear fashion for every occurance of a search term or phrase. Search engines know this and already correct for this.

Link popularity should and is used to decide whether a page is important in a general sense. If nobody is linking to a particular page, it probably isn't important, right?

Anchor text is a challenging area right now. The concept of giving additional weight to pages for terms used in by sites linking to them is solid in theory, but now that SEOs are aware of this, it's being abused and skewing the quality of SERPs. I'm sure search engines are also aware of this and will correct for the manipulation very soon. It will be interesting to see if this causes as much strife as the Florida update on Google.

Ed, what is easier? To throw together a page with the keyword on it one hundred times? Or to get one hundred links from other sites with decent link weight to pass?

Page elements are much more open to abuse than anchor text/links.

__________________
Internet Marketing

And this why you use Dell, IBM and Google to back your view - because they didn't do marketing or branding - they hire an SEO to rank them?

...SEM -- (Search Engine Marketing) I suppose isn't Marketing either just cloak and dagger stuff all hiding their true business from clients. They should be labeled SEA.

Now I know your a professional comedian - your so funny! :-)

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Wow...what a lively debate for a newbie like me to witness...my 15 year old son and myself built our website with Frontpage and I've done my best to optimise with what info I've gathered at your site and through reading about SEO...we are totally green amateurs stumbling about in the half dark yet I'm up in the top ten of Google and other se's....maybe just pure dumb luck or having keywords that arent that competitive (personalized figurine, personalized cake toppers, etc..) we make ceramic sculptures....I know there is a ton of stuff still to do to improve our site, yet our budget is so small we are just doing it ourselves, with the help of your members...so keep it up guys, we in the peanut gallery are struggling towards SEO enlightenment and all you Guru's are helping to show the path....though it seems to be many paths to the same target....in the meantime we are making a living off the internet, and getting great testimonials from clients...I think I have only 1 inbound link to my site, from Boston Dental Assoc. re our Dental figurines so links aren't doing it for us...I will continue to be educated by your "masters"
Best wishes to all techies...we make some funny computer techie models as well....See ya ,Hunter Vaughan


www.magicmud.com

__________________
www.magicmud.com over 25 years of creating custom made figurines/sculptures...will create a special type of personalized gift for your next occasion

The only "search engine marketers" is the people who work for search engines, marketing their services.

And, as I said before, it doesn't matter whether it's Dell - who got top placement through organic links, or SEOInc.com - which got top placement by link placement. If that confuses you, feel free to substitute "SEOInc" for Dell in whereever it is mentioned.

Google doesn't differentiate between organic and placed links, so why should you?


Whether they are organic or placed links, the end result is the same - top search engine ranking due to links, not content.

If you think you can get top search engine placement on a highly competitive keyword without links, then do so and post a link to the SERP.

__________________
Internet Marketing

I'm only halfway through this thread but want to toss in this observation related to the assertion being made of the example "computers" as a keyword.

It's being said that because Apple computers only has the word "computer" appearing once on their homepage that therefore their #1 ranking MUST be because of inbound links.

Well, I have an alternative suggestion as to the reason for their rank.

Take a look at this page of results from google. When you search for the word "computer" on pages within the apple site, you'll find there are over 42,000 results.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...2Ecom+computer

I wonder if that might play a role in their ranking? And that seems like it has something to do with content, and not just links.

Incidentally, Dell has over 2,800 results of pages on their site using the word "computer"

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...2Ecom+computer

So, JohnScott, if you're willing to put the $50,000 into a secured and guaranteed trustee's hands with clear commitment to hand it over if I can meet your challenge, then let's get started. For the sake of $50,000 I'll be willing to invest the time into building a site that might compete with Apple.

__________________
Jade Burnside, Ahead of the Web
What good is your web site if no one can find it?
SEO & Optimized Web Site Design

spiderbait

Google ranks pages, not domains. If you are a serious SEO professional, you'd know that.

I'm surprised you are so unaware of anchor text. Ever heard of Google bombing? "Miserable failure" - try that on Google.

__________________
Internet Marketing

Duncan,
I've read your post and wanted to explain anchor text as requested. Perhaps it is an offshoot of this thread but it is highly relevant to the discussion at hand.
I found a simple explanation here:
http://webmaster-resources.web-maste...chor-text.html

**I use anchor text EVERYWHERE on all pages and link all of my interior product and info pages back and forth. It increases revenue (add on sales because I use the links to suggest a complimentary product), page view depth and length of time soent on the site. I fell it is extremely important to the continued success of my business.

Anchor Text
Anchor text is an easy term to understand. But you need to understand that the use of anchor text is the most powerful search engine technique going.

Simply your anchor text must be the keywords you want to place highly in. Getting these keywords in your anchor text is your responsibility.

This is your anchor text here

Make sure you contain the correct anchor text from your link partners.
Make sure your anchor text is consistent
The importance of anchor text cannot be overstated. Choose your anchor text well and make sure you always have correcnt anchor text for your main keyphrases.

Hope this helps!

__________________
Glynn Gallagher aka "RED"
lock picks, locksmith tools

Firstly John, let me add my voice to those that have suggested you are sometimes insulting (intentionally or not) with your choice of words and comments.

I am a serious professional and you seem to be seriously obfuscating by casting illusions to the contrary. I'll thank you not to treat me or others as though we are children. (Are MODs watching this guy?)

Now, to answer you spurious and disingenuous response.

Google takes full account of pages and domains, although it only lists individual pages in its rankings.

If you look at the backlinks that you are promoting as the be-all-and-end-all of SEO, you will see that Dell's and Apple's own site pages are counted among the many thousands of links.

Those pages are on their sites and constitute content from an SEO perspective. Yet at the same time they are weighted by Google as links and are valuable from a SERP perspective.

The one thing that they are NOT, is the very thing that you are trying to claim is most important. They are not external outside links.

Make of it what you will. I'm not interested in getting into an argument with someone who displays bully tactics.

And incidentally, I never said anything about anchor text, although it's something I use all the time.

But if you're serious about the $50,000, I'll seriously take you up on it.

__________________
Jade Burnside, Ahead of the Web
What good is your web site if no one can find it?
SEO & Optimized Web Site Design

Sure. I'll do it. But before I go tie up $50,000, please provide a link to one - just one - SERP where you placed a page top ten for a highly competitive keyword on content alone.

:)

__________________
Internet Marketing

Proof that content means alot:

http://www.marznetproductions.com/computing

This site ranks well using only basic keyword/submission strategy. All this SEO stuff is a bunch of hot air. And JohnScott arguing and insulting others about what's right is 100% bs (IMO) LOL

Happy coding,
The Martian

What highly competitive keyword does it rank for?

__________________
Internet Marketing

I have many top ranked pages for clients and myself for both competitive and less-competitive keywords.

But if I prove that to you, you will likely be frightened away from parting with the $50 K. So, I think not.

After all, wasn't your point to try and prove that it isn't possible? So, if I prove it to you ahead of the challenge your point will be disproved and you'll no longer have an incentive.

Besides, in all honesty, no bet like this could ever be paid out, simply because nothing is ever black and white. If I spent the next year building a content focused site to try and beat your challenge, all it would take is one wise-guy to link to me for you to be able to say that my ranking wasn't based on content alone.

And to top it all off, I don't actually believe that it can be done on content alone. Everything requires balance. The extreme you're trying to argue against is equally as indefensible as is your own position. And no amount of repeating a point of view is going to make it any more valid or defensible, no matter how much louder any of us might get. If someone's entrenched in an extreme viewpoint, then let them stay there.

My sole real point in identifying the 48,000 plus instances of the word "computer" on the Apple site (or the 2,800 instances on Dell's) was purely for the sake of those that don't already have entrenched opinions and who are honestly seeking information and ideas. It's a plausible explanation (or at least partial explanation) for Apple's and Dell's ranking and deserved to be noted.

Content, links, content, links... etcetera

It's the Ying Yang of good SEO in my opinion.

Wishing you many pleasant meditations on the topic.

__________________
Jade Burnside, Ahead of the Web
What good is your web site if no one can find it?
SEO & Optimized Web Site Design

So we are in agreement.

__________________
Internet Marketing

JohnScott said:
What highly competitive keyword does it rank for?

Why would I worry about it being competitive? It's a site on computer history.

It ranks well on the search terms used to find pages holding the CONTENT the person is searching for, which was the point of my post.

For example,head to MSN and type in Rancho Arm, guess who's there at #1? This was achieved with nothing more than basic SEO strategy, which is what I've used for all my sites.

Google is a different story though, for some reason my listings are all screwed with them since the Florida update and I haven't figured out why yet. I held similar rankings with them until then. It doesn't bother me though because Google is just another SE to me, they aren't the holy grail. They're the only SE I have any problems with.

Happy coding,
The Martian

If you are agreeing that content and links are equally important, then we are in agreement. Otherwise you're just trying to score a cheap point by looking like someone agreed with you.

__________________
Jade Burnside, Ahead of the Web
What good is your web site if no one can find it?
SEO & Optimized Web Site Design

Spiderbait,

I'm not trying to score points. My agenda is clear to many people. It involves discrediting SEO's who claim to put their clients in highly productive places in the SERPs, but are too ignorant or too lazy to build links when links are needed. The end result is placing their clients in the top of the SERPs for unproductive search terms that nobody searches for.


Most SEOs know that you need links. Most SEOs know that you're not going to get to the top of any highly competitive keyword without a ton of inbound links with optimized anchor text. But because they like taking peoples money, and dislike work, they don't go get the links. They don't go get the top rankings for highly productive, highly competitive keywords.

And they are forced into regurgitating the same old "content is king" line just to defend their inability/unwillingness to get links for their clients.

So you might take offense - as many people do.


And anybody here has the power to prove me wrong. From the start of this topic, I've asked for just one link to one SERP where a page has been placed top ten for a highly competitive keyword without the benefit of anchor text/inbound links.

I have yet to see such a SERP.

__________________
Internet Marketing

No one is discrediting your links consideration - this part of your argument is quite sound.

I will however challenge your clear mis-statements (or total lack of understanding - I'm not really sure which though) that links (however you may get them) is the only thing that works, and content (in all forms) is redundant garbage that deserves zero consideration and should be left off the page.

A single link has limited value to a website startegy unless it has lot support from other links (e.g. pages of content) where PageRank (among other things) has been developed.

To get these valued links you need reason and this tend to be rationalized by content - thus the single "links only" strategy is flawed.

To recap - links are very beneficial to a web marketing strategy - so is content. You are going to be "less successful" in your objectives by doing only one (or the other). You can rehash the point of "just try to rank a site on a very competitive keyword with no links" all you wish -- your own website's article writing (that Content SEO stuff)suggests you don't believe your own words.

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Fathom, as I mentioned earlier, please do not put words in my mouth. When did I ever say a page should be left blank?

From the beginning, and this was mentioned by PhilC as well, I've stated that search engine optimization is largely dependent on links.

Marketing and conversion ratios are dependent on content.

But we're discussing search engine optimization. And that is about links.

Who said to leave a page blank?

__________________
Internet Marketing

I think we are getting somewhere;

I would agree - you never said "leave the page blank" but using the terms "copywriters" which actually means something in business and marketing circles implying professional writing - and "content" which means something in web development circles suggests informative.

So I guess you actually agree that text copy - content development are actually as important as links.

Glad we cleared that up!

Great to see you here (and posting) JohnScott - it has been interesting. :-)

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Yes, it is important for marketing purposes. Not SEO.

Fathom, my whole gripe - the post on Search Engine Roundtable that started this thread - is against SEO's who stop after tweaking page titles and putting the keywords in H1 tags. That's not SEO. Or, it's just the start of SEO.

I've looked around at sites you're involved with, and it appears to me that you know and practice link building. So I don't know if we are really in disagreement.

My gripe is with those SEO's who only do page elements SEO and leave their clients with a site that has PR1 or PR2 and not competitive, productive rankings.

It's not with SEO's who do on page SEO followed up by link building.

__________________
Internet Marketing

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree JohnScott I have the same gripe -- I look at the WebProWorld community in different eyes though. They (the membership that comes here) tend not to be SEO's looking for a new approach but learners of something that will benefit their own online strategy.

I know precisely what you are driving at - they (the membership and in my opinion) may not and will listen and learn what is offered.

Just the same I have clients that implemented "link strategies" that got themselves penalized and in one case banned because they heard about the "power of the link" - and didn't take care to develop unique content, or delve into the matrix of linking - they just did what someone had suggested. I must fix these problems now - thus I am very aggressive when seeing the "magic of links" - it can really burn you as well as help you.

Both you and I and every other qualified SEO become the problem when we don't chose our words carefully enough.

Additionally, what we gripe about is also in part to our own making - most "new" SEOs have learned from what we say - and what we don't say matters as well but they never hear.

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Links only strategy is flawed,dont get me wrong- I do beleive that you need the links- they are very important - but content counts too- try giving the heading of the page <subject> <keyword text> in bold in 36 font - and you will noticce that without any links - that keyword will go to the top- i dont mean a very competitive keyword- but general keyword.

content does matter!!!

__________________
Diamond Rings
Malpractice Insurance
Osaid Media

A very astute observation, Jade... well done!

__________________
Psychology Mental Health & Self-Help Forum
Online Counseling & Therapy | Mental Health Directory

red: I do appreciate your help, but I'm none the wiser!
Take, for instance, one of the links on my homepage, with the code reading <a href="http://www.surf-canada.com"> Surely, I can't adjust this to include one of my keywords, can I?
So what am I missing?
As I understand things, the <a href.....> code is used whenever I want to create a hyperlink to this, that, or the other, and, as I've just implied, I cannot see any way in which it will work unless I use the http://www... part exactly as it is.
Or is anchor text something quite different? Is it used for another reason (or two) than when a hyperlink is being created?
Perhaps, most of all, I need to go to some site that's using anchor text that can be pointed out to me so I can then go and look at the relevant code.
In other words, I guess, ha, ha, when someone mentions anchor text, I'm not clear whether they mean anchor text or anchor text or "anchor text"!
Duncan

__________________
Acts as an Exclusive Buyer Broker for purchasers of residential, industrial, commercial, and investment properties in all parts of the Niagara Peninsula.
http://www.duncanpollock.com
http://www.iciniagara.com

Hi Duncan - the "anchor" for a link is what is inbetween an "a open" and an "a close" tags for the link element. Sometimes this is an image but often actual text is used - thus "anchor text".

The anchor is quite beneficial to help in ranking for the "link to" page or ones pointing to you (and less for ones pointing elsewhere) that is to say you receive less weight (almost no effect) for links on your own website pages pointing elsewhere.

The links in my sig use "anchor text" where the link you have suggested uses an "image anchor" but the benefit is equal if...

[img]some-image.gif[/img] or

some keyphrase

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter

Yes of course you can. It was in the example given. But here is how you could use "all Canadian web site" as the anchor text in that link all Canadian web site .

Cut and paste that piece of code into a website and you will see what I mean. It just like using "click Here" with a link. But in that case the "click Here" doesn't do you any good because it is not a search term or keyword.

__________________
Bob Wakfer
Website Design, Hosting and SEO Services by Computer Partners

Cor blimey, as we used to say over 'ome.
The things you learn by being involved in WebPro World!
My thanks to fathom and compar for adding to my education (re anchor text). Hey, if this keeps up, they may even complete it!
Duncan

__________________
Acts as an Exclusive Buyer Broker for purchasers of residential, industrial, commercial, and investment properties in all parts of the Niagara Peninsula.
http://www.duncanpollock.com
http://www.iciniagara.com

my client has a neat website but little traffic. Should he build as many links to other sites rather than investing in buying what are v. expensive search terms?

Does is matter if the links are tucked away at back of site rather than on the home page?
Kind regards
Wendy, England.

Hi Wendy

Not quite sure what you mean when you say "buying v. expensive search terms".

Can you explain what you mean? Normally there is no way to buy search terms, but you can bid on them at places like Adwords and Overture.

__________________
Mel Nelson
Expert SEO | Cheap used cars

I to am not quite sure of your meaning - I assume that v. is abrev. for "very" thus is the big scheme of things I would not advise "not" doing PPC as returns are immediate and can be stopped immediately.

On the other hand it does take a while for "links" to work and help increase your visibility. It would probably be best to start submitting to directories first.

My www button has a fair list to get you going.

__________________
New daily advice on Advance SEO, Copyright & DMCA @ Twitter