China is not a political party but a country! You wouldn't make any difference of the United States of America under a Republican administration or an administration of the Democrats, wouldn't you?

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community

Dear kinggeek,
I just looked up the CIA world factbook to show some of your stated figures through another angle!

• Per capita GDP of Hong Kong was in 2004 US$34,200.-
• Per capita GDP of Taiwan was in 2004 US$25,900.-
• Per capita GDP of Macau was in 2004 US$19,400.-
• Per capita GDP of PR China was in 2004 US$5,600.-

If Shanghai totals 5% of China's GDP but counts only for 1% of China's population and if China's global GDP according to the CIA world factbook was in 2004 US$5,600.-, how much will Shanghai's GDP then be? Just calculate it...

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community

To theglobalchinese:

China was not some great super power that all of a sudden just starting going downhill in 1433.

China has always gone through periods of rise, decline, fall, and then rise once again.

Look at the period between the end of the Qin dynasty and the start of the Han. Then look at the fall of the Han. Look at the entire Jin dynasty from 265 A.D. to 420 A.D. This is a time of great chaos. The great ghost stories of Chinese literature were written during this time--one reason for this was the chaotic period in which they were written.

Now move to the Song. China was so week, the Emperor Huizong 徽宗 and his family was captured, the capital Kaifeng 開封 was sacked, its population raped, and butchered--does that sound like a super power to you?

A half-brother, Gaozong 高宗, would move south to Nanjing to establish the Southern Song, which would soon be over run by the non-Han Mongols. They would then establish the Yuan dynasty and they would be a super power, but they weren't Chinese.

The Yuan would be replaced by the Ming 明 , which in Chinese means "bright" but it was anything but that. The Ming was fairly weak and was eventually overthrown by another invasion of non-Chinese from the north, the Manchus. Their own rule was very weak as well. China under the Qing lost territory to the French, the English, the Germans, the Russians, and the Japanese. A 14-year civil war called the Tai Ping rebellion had to be put down by foreign mercenaries. The Boxer Rebellion, which at first was opposed by the Dowager Empress Cixi 慈禧太后 was urged to support them as palace insiders feed her false information saying the foreign powers wanted her ouster. The result was Beijing was sacked, China had to pay large amounts of money to these foreign powers (The US share went to found Qinghua University in China--the MIT of China). And Cixi herself had to flee Beijing dressed as a peasant.

The Qing fell in 1912 after years of failed reforms and failed uprisings which lead to the founding of the ROC. The ROC itself was hobbled by corruption, warlords, a civil war with the communists and an invasion by Japan. For most of the PRC's history, there were man-made famines--e.g. the Great Leap Forward, and various political repressions such as the Anti-Rightist Movement and the Cultural Revolution and involement in a needless and bloody war with the US--Chinese losses at Chosin Reservoir alone was 40,000--more than the US lost in the entire war. Despite the Deng reforms of 1978, China is still mostly rural, and much of its population poor and only barely literate. China has made great strides since 1978--but it is far from being a super power on par with the US. Will it become one? Perhaps, but as I said in previous posts there are signs that it will not be.

China has had moments of greatness--e.g. the Han, the Tang. But it has also had periods of disunity, chaos and weakness. Add these periods pre-date 1433--it goes back to the end of the Qin and even periods before China was unified in the Zhou and Shang.

And these are facts. And please spare of from more of your massive cutting and pasting from the web. If you can't write your own thoughts here, then simply don't bother.

theglobalchinese: "I just looked up the CIA world factbook to show some of your stated figures through another angle! If Shanghai totals 5% of China's GDP but counts only for 1% of China's population and if China's global GDP according to the CIA world factbook was in 2004 US$5,600.-, how much will Shanghai's GDP then be? Just calculate it..."

Again. So?

But Shanghai's per capita GDP using the ppp is about $11,000 USD. It is still way short of the Taiwan's GDP or Japans or the US and Shanghai is China's most wealthy city. If you simply go a few miles outside of Shanghai and the ppp GDP falls sharply. Rural per capital household incomes in the Shanghai area are only 7000 RMB. That is about $1000 USD right?

Again, facts. Outside of some very small pockets--China is a very poor country.

GlobalChinese: "China is not a political party but a country! You wouldn't make any difference of the United States of America under a Republican administration or an administration of the Democrats, wouldn't you?"

Once again, you fail to answer a simple question.

IS TAIWAN A PROVINCE OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA OR IS IT NOT? If you answer no--then this ends the debate does it not? If you answer yes, I have some other questions for you to answer.

This is a very simple question that even a mainlander should be able to answer without much trouble. Answer yes or no. No massive cutting and pasting, no detailed explainations. Just one word. Either answer "yes" or answer "no." Or In Chinese if you like. 是 或 不是.

Dear Akagi,

Don't underestimate China and the Chinese!

Be pleased to read "Not in China's league", written by Shankar Acharya, Honorary Professor at Icrier and former Chief Economic Adviser to the Government of India. He might offer you a third party opinion, the point of view of an Indian to let you understand the change PRC has undertaken since Deng Xiaoping introduced his open door policy in 1978.

You mentioned Wei Jingsheng in a previous post and the 5th reform, the democratcy, he wanted to get introduced and I like to remind you that this was also Gorbatchev's approach with "perestroika" and "glasnost".

The only problem is that Gorbatchev's country, the USSR, does not exist anymore despite the fact that Gorbatchev implemented exactely what Wei Jingsheng wanted to do for China and what the pragmatic Deng Xiaoping did avoid!

You cannot feed 1.3 billion people with politics if they don't have enough food! Even the Taiwanese did not have democracy during almost 50 years after Chiang Kai-shek took power there. Democracy in Taiwan is only a very recent treasure and was offered to Taiwanese only after they could have afforded it and where ready to deal with it!

Be convinced that Shanghai's per capita GDP will exceed that of Taiwan in probably less than 15 years from now! The reason why this might be the case is the GDP growth rate or GDP CAGR. Taiwan's GDP growth rate is only 6% while China's is 9.1% and Shanghai's even higher ...

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community

Okay GC:

Let's just for the sake of argument say that in 15 years Shanghai will have a greater per capita GDP that Taiwan--will Changsha have a larger per capita GDP than say Taichung? 台中市 Or even Hsing Ying 新營市? Shanghai is not China and until places like Gansu and Qinghai and Hubei, etc have a per capita GDP over $1000 USD then any talk of China as a economic super power is just that.

What China is is a source of cheap labor--just like Korea, Taiwan and even Japan were in decades past. And the law of that is--rush to the bottom--how long before it is Vietnam that will be the world's labor low baller?

And again. So what. You continue to avoid the central question. And I'll again try to make it simple for you.

Is Taiwan a province of the PRC? Yes or no? Why is it so difficult for you to answer this?

Google did right. Taiwan is a province of China and there is only one China in the world. That is the People's Republic of China.

The Chinese government and 1.3 billion citizens in the mainland China will never allow Taiwan to be separated from P.R.China.

Every person, organization who refers Taiwan as a province of China is doing right. Anyone who thinks Taiwan is a "country" called ROC is destroying the peace of the world.

Okay Homee...

Let's try a little test. We can all agree that Hawai'i is part of the United States, correct? What currency does Hawai'i use? The US dollar correct? Can I take a direct flight from LA to Hawai'i? Yes, I can. If I want to send clothes from LA to Hawai'i by UPS, do I need Hawai'i's permission? No I don't.

Does Hawai'i have a President? No. Does it issue its own travel documents? No

Now let's look at the so-called Taiwan province of the PRC. Does Taiwan use Renminbi? No it doesn't. Can you as a mainlander travel to Taiwan without its permission? No you can't. Does Taiwan have a President, yes his name is Chen Shui-bian. Does Taiwan issue its own travel documents? Yes. Does Taiwan recognize visas issued by the PRC for visits to Taiwan? No it doesn't. Does Taiwan recognize work permits, business permits, etc issue for Taiwan by the PRC? No it doesn't. Has the PRC controlled Taiwan for a single minute of a single hour of a single day of a single year? The answer is no--not even for a single second.

Thus it is clear that Taiwan is not a province of the PRC. Now in your perverted fantasies, you may believe Taiwan is part of the PRC, but fantasies and reality are not the same thing.

I would like to wish you a very happy Double 10 雙十節and have a nice day, Homee.

Okay, let's look at Taiwan's democratic reforms against China's. In the 1950s onward Taiwan had direct elections for some members of the Li Fa Yuan 立法元 as well as the National Assembly 國民大會. While it is true that most of the members of these two bodies were frozen in office since 1948 until elections could be held again in China--there were some elections to fill these two bodies in Taiwan as early as the mid-1950s. Has there ever been a direct election to fill a single seat of the NPC in China?

There were also elections at the city, county and township level as well as the village level.

To date, 56 years after the creation of the PRC, the only direct elections that have been held are at the village level. Taiwan held national-level elections as far back as 50 years ago. And for almost 10 years, every major position in Taiwan has been filled via direct election.


You also know that while still under martial law, the DPP was founded. Chiang, although permitted under the law to stop this, allowed it to continue.

Would Hu Jintao be as forgiving? I doubt it. A few years ago a number of people tried to form the Democracy Party of China--its leaders were arrested, tried and sent to prison for sedition.

You may also note that Jiang Zemin stated that China would never adopt democracy and the CCP would always "have the leading role" in China.

You seem to hold the view that the Chinese are too stupid to handle their own affairs and thus they need to be "guided" or else they'd all end up starving. Some may hold this view. But the real reason is the CCP doesn't want to give up power and end up like the KMT in Taiwan or the PRI in Mexico. It is not about feeding the people of China, but rather keeping themselves in their posh offices that prevents the CCP from moving forward with democratic reforms.

Dear Akagi,
Did you know that Switzerland before 1850 had over 20 different currencies in such a small country?
Did you know, that in Hong Kong, where the GDP is 33% higher than in Taiwan, there are no Renminbi in use but three banks print Hong Kong's paper money?
Dis you know, that in Germany by November 20, 1923 one US dollar was worth to Reichsmark 4,200,000,000,000 (4.2 trillion) and that then most German banks had to issue their own paper money?
I can't understand your arguments...

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community

Perhaps your level of intelligence isn't high enough to understand them. I will make it as simple as I know how. For Taiwan to be part of the PRC, the PRC must have sovereignty over Taiwan. This means it would have to control various aspects of Taiwan--for example, it would have to control Taiwan's foreign policy--it does not do so--although it does interfere with Taiwan's foreign policy, it would have to control Taiwan's economic policy, its would have to control Taiwan's immigration policy, etc etc. The PRC does not control any of these aspects.

The PRC does not have any amount of sovereignty over Taiwan nor does it have any control over Taiwan. Thus, Taiwan is not part of the PRC.

Now for your silly examples. Switzerland is a confederation--which is basically a group of independent states--in the Swiss example they are called Cantons--which have a great deal of autonomy. These organizations usually are organized for defensive purposes, but at times for other reasons such as economics. Are you saying that Taiwan is part of a Chinese confederation? Does Hu Jintao know this? Are you an agent of Lee Teng Hui? This was one of his ideas--that China should be broken up into highly independent regions which would include Hong Kong, Taiwan, Macau, Xinjiang, Tibet, and China itself would also be broken into 2 or 3 regions itself.

Yes, Hong Kong uses the Hong Kong Dollar, but China also has control over the SAR based on the Basic Law and under the so-called One Country, Two-Systems arrangement--for example the NPC basically vetoed a Hong Kong court decision on Chinese immigration and residency in Hong Kong--can the NPC veto a decision by the Taiwan Council of Grand Justices? The answer is no, they cannot--because the PRC has zero sovereignty over Taiwan.

You will also notice that the Swiss Cantons fly the Swiss flag and Hong Kong in addition to its own flag, also flies the PRC flag--does Taiwan fly the PRC flag?

Some more questions as well. What does it matter what the per capita GDP of Hong Kong is? The State of South Carolina during the Articles of Confederation printed its own money as well--your point?

Let's confine this debate to now. Outside of Hong Kong and Macau, all of China uses the renminbi. And my point is more than simply the currency. If Taiwan was under the PRC and still used NT$ I would agree that Taiwan was part of the PRC, but not only does Taiwan not use RMB, but it is independent of China in every other way as well. This is not the case with Hong Kong or a Swiss Canton.

A few more things as well Homee. Most of the 1.3 billion Chinese in China are half-literate peasants who scratch by earning less than 2 dollars a day. I think they have a few more important things to worry about such as feeding themselves than over an island hundreds or even thousands of miles away.

The Communists in the Soviet Union defined "peace" as a time when there was no longer any opposition to Communism in the world. If that is what you see as peace, then I will count myself as a proud warmonger.

Dear Akagi,
Would you like to pretend that the CIA Worldfactbook is inaccurate?
If I dare use the CIA Worldfactbook for China as a more reliable reference than your quoted statement, I have the following data:
Literacy: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 90.9%
male: 95.1%
female: 86.5% (2002)
Population: 1,306,313,812 (July 2005 est.)
Population below poverty line: 10%
Distribution of family income - Gini index: 44 (2002)

According to the data, 130,631,381 people living in China are below poverty line and those people could well be the illiterate 9.1% or 118,874'556 Chinese?

How can this match with your Fahrenheit 451 Propaganda, where you state, that Now once again, China's per capita GDP is "officially" $5,600!

But what does this "officially" really mean?

It means, as long as the Chinese government does refuse to US pressure and not revaluates the Chinese Renminbi according to markets, it looks like an annual per capita GDP at $5,600!

Let's say, they would revaluate their currency by 20%, Chinese per capita GDP immediately would be at a corresponding value in US dollar terms of $6,700!

Did you get the point or do you need more specifications by Morris Goldstein and Michael Mussa? http://www.iie.com/publications/oped...ResearchID=567
They believe that the renmnibi is undervalued.

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community

You must remember that the CIA is using the standards of literacy set by China. My standards of literacy are much higher. Thus, I used the term half-literate. The standard was once 500 characters and now it seems to be 1,500. I know about 1900 characters, but I still can’t easily read a newspaper without a dictionary but in the PRC I would be considered literate (okay, I wouldn't since I can not read and refuse to learn the perverted Communist forms of Hanzi, but using the PRC standard to fanti, I would be considered literate since I can read over 1500 Chinese characters, albeit the uncorrupted version).

Since my standard of literacy is the ability to read and understand a standard newspaper and 500 and even 1500 characters falls short of that standard--yes, I believe many Chinese are only half-literate.

I would even guess that the numbers matching the 1500 level standard are inflated. Remember China often makes up stats out of whole cloth. In 1999, China reported a GDP growth rate of 8% while its electric consumption was -1%. Does this make sense?

Remember in the late 19th century in the US a person was considered literate if he could read or write his own name. Was this a valid standard? Is 1500 a valid standard in China for true literacy?

If you would read more carefully, in my response to Homee, I didn't say all of China lived on less than 2 dollars a day--but many Chinese do. Look at the per capita income of Gansu--it is $464. That is closer to $1 dollar a day. Do you think the average peasant in Gansu cares about Taiwan or cares about feeding themselves that day for $1.50?

And yes the RMB is undervalued so that China can use it as a competitive advantage--a practice that was used in the 1920s and 1930s known as "beggar thy neighbor." Okay, in Gansu then the “real” number is $1.80 a day—happy now?

But once again you continue to fail to answer the central question here. Is Taiwan part of the PRC? Yes or no?

Well, I could ask you your question by another question. Is Manchukuo a part of China or not? Yes, it is and yes, it was!
Is Vladivostok part of China? No, it's not anymore as it has been ceded by China to Russia!
Is Alaska a part of Russia? No, it's not anymore, as it has been sold by the Russians to the USA!
But Taiwan has neither been ceded nor been sold to any other nation and Chiang Kaishek was the President of ROC (Republic of China) on mainland China before 1949. So Taiwan is part of China and there is only one China, the People's Republic of China.

__________________
theglobalchinese - Welcome to the News Community